it is not a democratic or republican issue, it is a human rights issue. >> issue that is important to me is climate change, the notion that we are the only country in the world not in the paris climate accord is a travesty. every other country in the world has recognized the detriment of impacts of climate change and taken steps to address it and we have not stayed on course with the other countries. >> participation in the world, we have citizens who go bankrupt trying to cover basic healthcare costs and that is an outrage and we should be ashamed. >> sunday night at 8:00 eastern on c-span's you and a. coverage of this year's virginia festival of the book starts now. first up a discussion on human rights violations during wartime. [inaudible conversations] >> we are going to go ahead and

get started. on behalf of virginia humanities producer of the virginia festival of the book i would like to welcome everyone here today to the panel inhumane acts, guantánamo and more. my name is dan doernberg. i will be moderating today's panel and i'm president of the public interest group fairness.com creates a close reading tool use that uva and 1000 schools all over the world. a couple housekeeping notes, please turn off your cell phones. if you are sweeting the event use the hashtag vabook218. the virginia humanities would like to thank the sponsors and community partners without whom this would not be possible. sponsors of this panel are amnesty international and

amnesty was very involved in helping mohammedyou obtain his release, the clergy and lady united for justice and peace and the city of charlottesville. this program is being broadcast on the government access channels are charlottesville tv tenant streamed live on the city's facebook page@charlottesvillecityhall. will be broadcast later on c-span and tv 10. during the q&a portion please raise your hand and wait for a volunteer to bring your microphone before you ask your question and we will try to make sure we have time for a lot of questions at the end. i don't have a copy but everyone should have received an evaluation form. it is important for the yellow-green guys being waived, real important for the festival organizers that you fill those out and they get your feedback.

the authors will be available for bookbinding after the program so please support these festival authors by purchasing a book or two today. if you enjoy them and i'm confident that you will. having said that, housekeeping, let's go on with things. the acceptability or unacceptably of torture is once again national news. the nominee to be the new cia director over sod two investigations in the years after 9/11, to destroy the documentation of those. the authors on this panel are extremely knowledgeable about moral implications and practical outcomes how we treat detainees who are perceived to be the enemy. mohammed swati, the author of

guantánamo diary was kidnapped in november 2001 by the us government and its allies. for almost 15 years was imprisoned without charge or trial. in the first few years, he endured intense and frequent torture. he was finally released in october 2016, due to travel restrictions he can't visit the united states so he is skypeing from mauritania, southwest of algeria where he lives, mark fallon series

negative and special agent in charge of an al qaeda task force was our last offer, andrea pitzer, is the author of one long night of concentration camps, she writes about humanity's tendency not to learn or remember the past. welcome all of you. the authors and guests. this is a little bit of a historical night, the first time as far as we know that anyone has skype into the festival let alone internationally. the first time, we just lost mohammedyou. i think we will accept it.

sorry. okay. he appears in both of their books and has spoken with them before but the first time he is appearing on a panel with the 3 of them on the panel together. let's start. >> pleased to be with you, thank you. i am so happy to be here with this panel, with mark and andrea, thank you for organizing this and i think the virginia festival of the book for having me. actually, i wrote this book by accident. as a matter of fact i'm a very lazy person. in high school, my arabic

teacher suggested that i should pursue literature because he saw that i have a big future if i did that. i politely turned him down and chose mathematics because mathematics was very simple. there are no two ways about it. either it is correct or not correct. a good relationship with that particular teacher, i wasn't sure i was going to have someone who would have faith in me the same way and appreciate -- this is my childhood. i was obsessed with writing. my notebooks margin, my intimate thoughts.

sometimes it was embarrassing when people read it. in this fishing, grew up with me in guantánamo bay when -- was allowed to have been and wasn't allowed to receive or write anything. unlike detainees, some detainees were allowed to have pen and paper. so i stole from my next neighbor, i saw their pen, borrowed them. we talk about the appropriation rather than stealing. i use to write random stuff.

random stuff was discovered - it was taken away. random stuff, i wrote about my story. my english was almost nonexistent and whatever i heard god saying or my next neighbor was british and used to teach me a little bit. i learned it was two different versions of english that completely confused me. after that everything was taken away when i was put out of a special program so i was very much in the india block alone with no one. i had no papers and started to

write on my clothes with my fingers and one time, very irritated with me, told me once i was writing i didn't say anything. for one, i was right and i did not one to be, the satisfaction of knowing and very angry, he said if you don't stop writing i will punch. i did not stop writing mostly because i wasn't aware i was writing anyway. then a very special restraint kept my hands at all times shackled to my sides and so it

would take some years before i would meet my lawyers. in 2005 after two years in incarceration, that was my window. and then start writing letters and kept writing very small letters and pushed the paper early in the course of three months, produced the manuscript of a guantánamo diary. so that would be it. so my lawyers kept receiving that and the governments said

this was too much. as a guantánamo detainee i did not have the right to communicate with my lawyer. my lawyer could read my mail but she had to leave them in the secure room, that is what it is called. then she had to turn it over to the government and approve or disapprove it. they disapproved everything i wrote. it would take 71/2 years of legal battles and back and forth until they give us the heavily deducted manuscripts that became the book. a lot of deductions, sometimes

everywhere reduction, very big portions sometimes, very big portions. this is a very good read. for lazy people they don't have to read anything. i edited the book today. i don't want to talk too much because that is not appropriate to these kinds of things. so the book was published when i was in prison and i knew about it by accident. i was in guantánamo bay and like any good detainee i subscribed - i wasn't allowed in 2015, the class, i took

spanish. figure why i took spanish. in one session, all of us - it was resin tv and they showed my book and me, who is this guy? i was like this is me and it was like freedom. it was like freedom. after so many years of stifling, stonewalling, not allowing me to have any voice ever, i was allowed to have a voice even if it is partially stifled and it is outdated too because it is 71/2 years but it

is something like a big win for me. i'm not a bad person. i went to afghanistan. i did not break the law in afghanistan, not the law of mauritania where i lived. i had never been to the united states ever. why - and so it was like i was like walking inside myself and i was a free man, the power of writing, of talking to people through the written word was very powerful and i know you guys are readers. a book that changed your life,

by reading one book. for one chapter of a book and talking to people. it was designed for the united states of america, the establishment, to say we are sorry for having been a democracy. it is a message, it simply, democracy did not work. that is why we need to take people without lawyers, without due process, put them in prison for almost two decades. to give the american people safe and keep the world safe. this is wrong. why do i know that it is wrong? i grew up in a dictatorship.

i saw democracy at work, i know germany was safer, more peaceful than the kind of military dictatorship and autocratic regimes that exist in this part of the world. when i was finally released i took it upon myself to repair the damage, the government still refuses - they give me partially one and so i took it upon myself, i may have made a mistake but did my best to give

you this book. >> we will come back. i'm sure the audience will have questions. tell us a little about your book. >> thank you. the inevitable position of being an investigator of the task force investigating guantánamo and tried to prevent his torture and the special interrogation plan, i failed to do so. let me talk about my book and i would like to start with reading from the introduction to set the stage for where we were as a nation on september 11th when we were attacked. on september 11, 2001, the purpose and methods of war radically changed. a group of unsophisticated thugs in the service of a charismatic leader living in a

distant cave used a few thousand dollars to mount a surprise attack. armed with seats purchased on airplanes, some rudimentary knowledge of flying, and box cutters they executed one of the most successful military strikes in the history of the world, obliterated two of the world's largest buildings, the heart of the international financial industry, nearly scoring a direct hit on the pentagon. the world's most powerful country was momentarily helpless. despite spending in 2001 almost 22% of annual federal budget, $400 billion, to pay for the most highly trained military and sophisticated weapons ever known the united states was revealed as briefly weak and confused. as often happens in these crisis points america had been looking in the wrong direction, looking back at war had been so long ago rather than forward at

what war was becoming. what else it accomplished, 9/11 made clear with the new rules of the world would be, soldiers wouldn't wear uniforms or represent a nation, they wouldn't attack a military target to control territory, would slaughter civilians to control minds. unlike most soldiers since the beginning of time they didn't fear death. this was a secret army with no central command on recruiting and training structure based on destroying anything american, european in style, humanistic democracies and their contagion of anti-islamic to america and our allies, the 9/11 attacks seemed irrational, mindless, a blind lashing out against western culture. they were not. they reflected a calculated strategy that yielded the results the planners hoped for.

the story is more nuanced, al qaeda can't claim responsibility to the attacks. they didn't hate us for who we were as much is where we were. the group had its roots in anti-soviet occupation of afghanistan 1989, mostly young arab militants flocked to afghanistan to join a holy war against the soviets which are kind's interest they align with the us and al qaeda received america's financing and weaponry along with training. once the soviets were driven out osama bin laden the wealthy young arab who became al qaeda's leader turned his attention to the superpower that retained a dominant position in the muslim world. al qaeda's aim was and remains to this day to drive us, or institutions, propaganda, profit-making machinery, religious colonizers in the middle east, as he had driven the soviets out and influences out of afghanistan and

elsewhere, a slow death by 1000 cuts. al qaeda start a war of attrition, to attract more followers to their cause, slowly bleeding us of our treasure, our lives and our resolve. while we focused on tactics, the adversary focused on strategies and as our discounts grew so did their number of followers, fed by what we earlier immigrated to the west, religious converts and once moderates who feared for their lives, family and culture. simply put, america got outplayed. even worse than that, america got changed. brave pluto and women from our military branches and across the range of the intelligence service putting their lives on

the line in iraq, afghanistan and other places we will never know about, a darker strain of america emerged in guantánamo bay and too many other stark prisons in dank interrogation rooms under pressure of a new kind of warfare, we through away our bonded democratic principles and turned our back on international covenants and convictions the united states probably led the way crafting in pursuit of intelligence coups that were never to be scored in the first place, we employed interrogated methods borrowed from the nazis and north korean pow plants from half a century earlier. we treated detainees somehow subhuman internet process we became less than human ourselves and we did it under washington's watchful eye, tacit, explicit encouragement. my book is a hard-core perspective. i have been battling al qaeda since the 90s.

and the uss cole and after 9/11 i became the chief investigator for the military commission process that mohammedyou was involved in. i cannot guarantee to you today that we are not torturing prisoners right now. the first time we did this no one was ever supposed to know what we did. those prisoners were never supposed to see the light of day. today as we sit here we have an american citizen who has been in custody more than six months, not being brought before a judge. those terrific crimes of the past may be ongoing today, thank you. >> you heard from two authors talking about the us and guantánamo and andrea will give historical perspectives on a

bunch of things. >> thank you for moderating in the book festival, i am honored to be on this panel, what it is like to be a detainee, mark talked about how it is to be part of the machine responsible and i want to talk about how we get to the physical place of guantánamo to begin with. i don't think most people think of it as a concentration camp and why it ended up in my global history of camps will illuminate wonton amo in concentration camps for you. when people think of concentration camp they think of auschwitz almost by default, the death camps because this is the most terrific version of concentration camps in human history. there are more than 100 years

of concentration six continents so while the nazi death things guantánamo from happening. it is important to realize across most of the century of camps that existed the first started in cuba in the late 1890s. cuba is the beginning and end of my book. during that time, this warfare model in which you have rebels or insurgents or terrorists operating hours of uniform goes back quite a way and concentration camps were specifically developed to deal with this issue, to lock up whole groups of people because you can't find the rebels and insurgents and terrorists in a convenient way so the answer

has been historically sweep up a lot of people and hold those people and figure out who you have. we know this model of looking for terrorists, looking for insurgents or trying to prune your population to grab these people you get a little closer to something recognizable as guantánamo but to get to the institution three things come together. after 9/11 we are outraged, or horrific tragedy has happened and we want answers, culprits and keep it from happening again. we go into afghanistan, we go into iraqi and the detention policies that happened during these operations, there are global operations during this time. there is not a great detention policy, i talked to several enlisted men responsible for this detention stuff and there

was not a good plan when they would be released or how they would be vetted and we decided quickly we were not going to grant geneva convention protections to these people so this is where we go off the rails, a sloppy detention system, an administration that deliberately is looking to do a couple things, one of which is to punish, identify people responsible and punishing a public, defiant and dramatic way to overcome the perception of weakness and this early embrace of torture. it goes back soon after 9/11 this begins to be discussed, takes time for some of it to develop and this is the time mark was working in that window to stop it from developing. unfortunately it did swamp thing so we end up with torture at guantánamo. guantánamo is the crown jewel in a short ergo of time of the

whole network of detention, other grabe, black sites but guantánamo is the symbol of the detention system. quite a large one. we have a sloppy detention policy inadvertently play into this, the deliberate efforts on part of the administration of people working to advance torture and military communal system that is not going to guarantee rights under international law and then depart -- for part a lot of people don't know is you have a preexisting place called guantánamo that has already served as a detention facility. in the 1990s there were waves of refugees out of cuba and haiti. we use guantánamo as a detention site even then. we were careful to use the word migrants, they are set up in

terms of migrant rather than refugee. later, when guantánamo is used as a new kind of detention facility after 9/11 we don't use the word pow or the words in the language of the geneva protection even for an uniformed combatants. a number of phrases we refer to them at different points in time. .. in the flights to the detainees. you don't want to give them any rights by what you name them. it's important to note that there were reports of a guard abuses. because of a group of hawaii be positive -- hiv-positive

inmates. usually these kinds of detentions they don't rise out of nowhere. they became identified where it was impossible to do these things. there is a history and a set up to. it's to said the u.s. is credit. some of them begin to correct some of this. much of it is ineffective. in terms of world diplomacy. and they began releasing a lot of people. the use of torture is

reduced. president obama comes in in 2009. and there is a terrible moment that happens which should be a good moment in which he says we will not be doing that. we reject torture. the military commissions are set up. they will review that. they are going to do them right now. what happened. the next the courts coming in dispute certain parts of it. congress makes laws. if they continue. they are underlining other parts of it. it became institutionalized.

we won't be torturing anymore. it was still during the administration. they were not going to close it. none of the people that are in charge of it have any realistic exploitation. the big lesson to take away from this is that i'm sure president obama thought they were putting an end to it. by making the decision i think it was actually mark that said this. by making the decision not to go after the people who had authorized these things you can actually end up being apposite but in. their stopping history.

someone will come in after you. if they don't choose to stop as well and all you might be doing is making a hiatus of it. we don't know what's happening now. i don't know what is secret insider knowledge. it's already happened before. with the larger history of concentration camps. you're almost never able to make a clean break with the past. and i think they transferred. there is the endpoint. it continues to exist as something we might replicate in other ways. and places very briefly they

are going to ruin the end of the book. it's a last of the few paragraphs of it. leaving guantánamo. the tense of the camp justice blurt with the media hanger in the courtroom context. rising higher. half of the world away. the last moment in time when no concentration it can't exist it was more than a century ago. that moment it seems unlikely to come again.

the face of the planet is riddled with camps. even from the vantage point of outer space. it is still impossible to take it all in. there is always a location out of the on the far side of the globe where the innocent in the guilty and those in between have been trapped together for a time bold camps. for the chronic spectacle of the camps. that did not ruin her book at all. or give it away. how many people know here. a third of the people are there. i want to have as much time as possible.

i want to ask one question of the panel. i'm going to turn you talk about the importance and the fundamental importance. of the rule of law. and from that perspective. you don't realize how quite fragile it have become. but it is fragile in that it only takes a very small highly motivated group of people to undermine rule of law and democracy. as long as they are able to manipulate a large mushy middle not even necessarily to

go along but not to fight. what is happening. but especially u.s. history. it could really be a very small group that can undermine. i want to talk about a little bit about how we got there. it's kind of remarkable if you timeline it in his doric perspective. i spoke about september 11. there were decisions made in the days weeks months and years following those attacks that were a stain on our constitution. our nation built upon the rule of law and nation that valued inalienable rights and ones

that cannot be infringed upon by neither government nor man and we did just that. and on september 14 president george bush declared a national state of emergency. and what the president said was the al qaeda terrorist network risk of the continuity of operations of the united states government. and so at the president said that the government basically could fold because of this threat from these perceived monsters. they have superhuman powers to do things to us because those 19 people brought us to our needs. decisions were made. based on fear and one of the things that the president said he have the authority to do

was to spin habeas corpus. and that is the oldest human right. it dates back to 1215. there are phrases from that in the constitution. it was that favorite in just days later. that 226 years earlier to the day. they sat at the campus in massachusetts.

should any soldier find that basis. because for such actions they bring shame and disgrace upon themselves and on our country. and that was the reaction of general george washington 226 years earlier. when they were can engage a battle in the death of our nation. on september 17. they made another remarkable decision. and again what is interesting about that date. 214 years to the day earlier was the day our constitution was signed.

george washington's name at the top. on that day there was a conscious decision to abandon the renditions from here. were not and are still not core competencies of the cia. they had decided to abandon on november 13 the department of defense not the department of justice would have the authority to try to detain and try prisoners under military commissions. and that was the order that i was responsible for executing. that's how they wound up at quintana mode. they turned away from the constitution.

of our constitution. the federal court system is incapable of trying terrorists. and that's just not factual. we've been very successful and getting information that was reliable and taped evidence from people. and on january 112002. you can share that you are an alternative to the brutal regimes. not that we compete with them. and it didn't take long for that . those torture tactics when they were migrated to guantánamo bay.

on september 25. they call in the book. the torture architects. snakes on the plane. a plane came to guantánamo bay to explain and authorize and sanction the same techniques that the cia was using to be practiced on prisoners. and jim haynes. and a week later the cia lawyer came to guantánamo bay and explained how do implement waterboarding. and had implant -- implement those techniques. at the time when i saw that i

said someone needs to be considered and these are the things congressional hearings are made up. i can see it unfolding before my eyes. i run the wrote on the book. there was an avalanche. i could wave my arms. and see what could happen. but no one would listen. no one to pay attention. we wound up having a policy of the state sponsored torture that continues today. i would like to get the comments. he has a lot of passage as a non-american growing up in a the american principles and democracy. could you weigh in a little bit on that. there are two points i would like to make.

with the persistence of the world. and at this point after the toxic event of 911. they made a statement that the attack because of its wave of rights. and he promised that the right would never win. the democracy in the world of law. with the u.s. taking those fights. they did they said we will

take those people i say okay. the government cannot decide about guilt and innocence and that's why they have the legislative if you would like. people who want to change and democracy and people in

germany. those people. they are singular. and this is what has gotten there. and people who want change and democracy. if you go back. you may get hurt. and you were not there.

they will just head that. i did count. that's what i want to make. it's very sad 72 also brought pressure. it's believing. that they should help. we had time for questions from the audience. i really want people to just ask short general interest questions without long preludes and we will start with that.

and maybe mohammed. and i just wanted to say the uk by its own silence because of the special relationship. and to try to cruise guantánamo bay. i went on a hunger strike. to get them back. i just want to say. thomas from the panels.

i completely agree. i heard you correctly. the european countries cannot the rule of law on a good time obey. -- guantánamo bay. i see that they will be there. what do you think about that.

i'm pretty vocal about it. i can't speak about it. how they served time. it's clear the deputy director. it was unwise. it sends the wrong message. a number of different phrases. there were video tapes. that john rizzo.

and so does josé rodriguez. one of the reasons we wrote my book. part of the process. and it was involved. it is clear from the public record. they have a hand of the destructive videotapes of those. when people and were i noticed not to dispose of them. they made a conscious decision. they implemented the program under. i went while the long --

beyond those things. i'm very concerned in trouble. donald trump ran for office on war crimes. he said were going to do waterboarding. he will pillage oil. and i take him at his word. positions of responsibility. people who were involved in the torture program to start with. stephen bradberry was awesome legal counsel. a loyal his helped sign off on the torture memos. we've just a few minutes of time. i want to see if we can squeeze in a couple more questions. i see hands. there has been a lot less a discussion about accountability for the

lawyers. they were paving the way. the program to be implemented. what they were likely to ever seen. the architects of that were two psychologists who had no experience their names were michel and jess. and so there had been challenges to the american psychological association against the licenses. in the torture program. and i'm unaware of any meaningful accountability.

in seattle. they have a judge against them. there had been no sanctions that i have seen. or medical personnel. they have something to add to it. not as bad as if they came to light. has there been any repercussions for that. with some of the interviews have been done with these people. and some of the talk now. through the cia appointment or come to a point here in nomination. the further you get from these events that allow this kind of

extra stuff to happen. the more people play it as everybody was doing this there was panic in the moment after something happened. for the pretty egregious behavior. it's very rarely happening the sinking. after the bombing of pearl harbor. there is actually, you have to take up the energy within the organization. it takes some time. when an excuse is out. the panic cap and her we didn't know what to do after 911 or we didn't know better.

also mark talking about there were people inside who were trying to keep this from happening. there are always people japanese internment. there are people who understand that this should be happening. later when the case is charted out that we didn't know better at the time that should never be an excuse. inevitably there's always documentation for people. right in this moment. any other questions from the audience that i can see.

how ironic. i just wanted to say. the question then becomes. i can tell you. and whatever method. there is a number of things. that may be comfortable for you and your old world. generally speaking. because they are getting some benefit out of things that are

happening. what historically has made a difference although not always if you can strengthen that. they actually do have more success sustaining. then legislators tend to. working the courts to make a difference. i think strengthening that as much as you can at the local level like civics exclamation. i don't think they understand how democracy works. we are reaping the consequences of that.

and other organizations that were helpful. in attaining. the release. the whole team you sit up to help me. i did not know this. i never met them. that is of course the sight of my lawyer. with the members. as they erase awareness those other people and tell them

that what they do is wrong. and who was i i was the other i am from very interesting place. because they are brave. when obama came to power. the being in torture. it sends a message there were no laws. in the united states. and international law.

so with this tactic they can think okay. just respect the constitution. the existing law. see. >> okay. thank you. they didn't show them treating anybody and humanity at its worst. other kind of big picture stuff. and i ask that of all three panelists.

some of the his doric action. and further. if every military service opposed it. and i write about and they were redacted his name from the book. he refused to allow his dog to participate in interrogations. and the dog bit to the the interrogator. i guess the dog since it was a real threat. in the army military officer. that they were coming off. they were to get tough. those gloves are on for reason.

it is about. they saw detainees. the violation. even if the claims did apply in afghanistan. it was a sanctioned war. more of the general counsel in the navy. i brought my claims up to the secretary of defense and while people agreed it was wrong alberto moore appointed to that position by president george bush said this is that who we are. we have to take affirmative action to try to stop this.

from occurring. the presidency is at stake. it will make us less safe. so i tried to illustrate in the book some of those actions and to me it's a leadership book. that they were placed in incredible positions. i was under incredible pressure at the time. but our job is to deal with that pressure. i think those are the people that we need to use as examples. he said they were up for a big promotion and he basically put his career advancement on the line. the general counsel of the cia. and it is truly a patriot and one of my heroes.

he is a guy who stood up to the administration as part of it and really it was none of his business. he have the courage and the conviction. and he did what he can. we stopped the spread and it would've been even worse. there are people like that and as a kind of people that you need to see appointed to positions. we don't pledge faith to a person. that's what al qaeda did. we did that. from all enemies foreign and domestic. that is a type of person that we should be looking for in these positions.

the positive thing that i can say. the positive thing i can say and it's really important is that my brother was saying to me. doesn't it just make you totally depressed about humanity. now it is really the opposite. they have some precursors but they do not quite late. you have had have a party or a government must -- pushing this line. if the people inside this government actively working for terrible things because after overcome the organization in the population as a whole has to be coached and propagandized into accepting this. if not inevitable. and you have to really draw people to accept it. i think the ways in which we can intervene.

it is really important tool. it's not that it is powerless. learning the mechanics of this very predictable path. to not accept the kind of rhetoric about any time we have to go around the rule of law or our most cherished rights and ideals not only does it end up violating who we are as a corporation or company. your book maybe has as many inspiring things. can you speak a little bit. i do believe that the defendant -- founding fathers

the view of having it. they suggest that these people that the earth would be corrupt. this is really bad. the government may have weapons. and money. they had resources. they will do bad step. the only way is just a small democracy with the people. and it will open us.

the guards and the people in the camp. to the part of the world. in my lifetime. the use of slavery. and not that. you will have to be a part of that. i was always amazed at what the slave was themselves. way worse than the slave.

they go on their way. i think the audio is breaking up. mohammed i'm going to hang up on you and then call you right back seeking finish. it's just not coming through. okay. while you do that. i will just say one thing i don't think we got to the is an important part of all three of our books is that because of the attention practices. many of the people that ended up there should never had been anywhere near it. there are several that should have been questioned. there are some against maybe whom we would have built cases. that population ended up being a very undifferentiated group of people that spans the whole

range. we didn't know who we have. they were not high-value detainees. most of them were no value detainees. sometimes people think it's all a very serious terrorist and it's much more mixed bag than is generally known. the musical interlude. you were are starting to talk about slaves and your thoughts that you have as a young man.

i found myself being there. absolutely not. as they could say. i was a nobody to them. i was nonexistent. i spoke to them. i said why do you break the law. and some of them said this. they need that. what is good to have. he couldn't do it because it was to a very bad job.

after my release. into my good friend it's there too. thank you. do you have any other questions from the audience. i wanted to know if they experience any repercussions from writing your book. the book took 233 days. it was never getting out. fortunately the aclu and the institute for first amendment rights decided to represent me. threatened the government with a lawsuit that they were

infringing upon the first amendment right to speak out on a topic that is in the public interest. letters to six senators. and touched her in a very powerful op-ed. in newsweek. they came to my support. in the first days of president trump. i would have to tweet it line by line. they read a book about someone the chief investigator. i thought that those efforts. and because of that. it might be able to be used i

recognize i was never promotable again with the department of defense. in a haphazard one at times. initially it told me that donald rumsfeld wanted to know who mark phelan was. it was clear to me that my career was over. there are people that are not very happy with me. and to answer your question earlier. i think we all need to do standup.

it's a citizens movement. they would not do that. they were not operators. these are people who just set there are things going on in the state of north carolina that we oppose. and we are going to engage the citizens and we will contract our legislators. and asked people to testify. the un special repertoire. and others. they came from the uk to speak out. i think we all need to speak out. it's a government, by for end of the people. and the greatest threat to our democracy is apathy. and so i urge each of you to speak out about things that are being done in your name.

if i can follow up on something in your book. if i can get some career advice to people on the other hand i think the folks that designed the torture program made like $82 million off of that. the initial contract first the program was outsourced. and the travesty a number of career officials. while they outsourced torture and they have no experience. full-time career was helping me develop the core -based approaches. i need us to be the only effective practices. so-and-so and read my book.

the question that you might ask yourself. if we knew the techniques we were using have historically produced information they were based on a study by 1957 by a guy name albert bitterman who did a study of our service members servicemembers and how the north koreans were able to obtain propaganda information. if we were implement in the same practices might we not had been looking for that same information to support policy decisions. and we did indeed use information. to help drive us there. one thing i want to hit on is that they said they have to see that. there is a real focus on president trump right now. they are vocal and direct about it. a lot of the ideals that were

talking about. i think it is crucial to remember that in the last election he was not in the only candidate who was seen in these things. there were several candidates. as a very good example to say the first of those were before 911 even. and then even then we have this huge step up in transformation of what that attention was and then president obama got rid of certain things. in the military tribunal. this is clearly a lot of focus on president trump right now. i think it's really important to understand this is a guantánamo itself. and the whole idea is something that america has vomited up because it's a more underlying thing than any one person. i think there are some things that we really want to look at. to look at it in a more profound way.

we are to give going to give you the last word. is there anything you like to add to that discussion about torture versus report bait. make someone in the world they are willing to tell you that. it has been enlightening i hope and educational. i have just a couple of things before i close. please do complete the evaluation forms that everyone should have. books are available for signing with the authors and i'm going to be the stand-in. he is can stay on the skype connection and nonexistent.

anyway. that is going on. if they hear for the range. he will sign your book twice. thank you for coming. [applause]. nextep from the virginia festival of the book. an author discussion on the environment. good afternoon. how are you. i am a recovering science journalist. what i think it's is good to be a wonderfules