which the most recent manifestation. >> you can watch this and other programs online book tv.org. >> coverage of this year virginia festival of the book starts now. human rights violations during wartime. >> on behalf of the humanities like to welcome everybody here today to the panel in humane acts come out guantánamo and more. my name is dan and i'll be moderating the panel. the president of the group fairness.com which creates a reading tool in about a thousand

schools over the world. please turn off your self owns. if you are tweeting the event use the #v a book 2018. the virginia humanities would like to thank as many sponsors and community partners without this would not be possible. the sponsors are amnesty international. amnesty was involved in helping obtain the release. the clergy and -- united. in the city of charlottesville. the program is being broadcast on the government access channel, charlotte bill to be ten and streamline on the facebook page at charlotte bill

city hall. because this is a recorded event it will be broadcast later on c-span. during the q&a please raise your hand and wait for a volunteer to bring you a microphone before you ask the question. we will try to have a lot of time for questions at the end. >> everybody should have received an evaluation form. it's important to the festival organizers that you fill them out. the authors will be available for a book signing after the program. please support the authors and local booksellers pipe purchasing a book or two today. let's go on. the accessibility or on acceptability of torture as a legitimate technique is in the national news.

the nominee for the new cia director oversaw to interrogations involving torture after 9/11 and obeyed orders to destroy the documents to destroy those. our guests are knowledgeable about how we treat detainees how we perceive to be the enemy. mohammed, the author of guantánamo diaries was kidnapped in november 2001 by the u.s. government and its allies. from was 15 years was imprisoned without charge or try. in the first few years in toured intense torture. he was released in october 2016.

due to travel restrictions he cannot visit the united states so he escaping him from his home city which is southwest of nigeria where he now lives. mark is the author of unjustifiable means. the inside story of how the cia, pentagon and u.s. government conspired to torture. mark is an international conspiracy consultant having served as the in cis deputy director, senior executive and special agent in charge of an al qaeda task force. our last arthur is the author of one long night, global history of concentration camps. she writes about humanity's tendency not to learn or remember the past.

welcome. this is a bit of a historical night. the first time as far as we know that anyone has skype into the festival. also the first time -- we just lost him. he appears in both of the books since i have spoken with them before. this is the first time he's appearing on the panel. anyway let's start. >> thank you. i'm so happy to be here with

this panel and with mark and andrea. thank you for organizing this. i think the festival of the book for having me. i wrote this book by accident. as a matter fact i'm a very lazy person. in high school my arabic teacher suggested i should pursue literature. because he saw that i had really a big future if i did that. and then i politely turned him down and chose mathematics because it was very simple.

there is no two ways about it. either it's correct or not correct. even i had good relationships with that teacher i was not sure i was going to have someone who would have faith in me the same way. and appreciate my writing. my childhood i was obsessed with writing. i would write in the notebook margin to write my thoughts. at times it was embarrassing when people read it. in this obsession grew up with me in guantánamo bay i was allowed to have paper and pen or write anything. unlike other detainees some were

allowed to have pen and paper. so i did what any decent human being did i stole from mind neighbor. we talk about the appropriation other than stealing. i used to write random stuff and of course i give the pen back. this was discovered by the garden it was taken away. very random stuff. i wrote about my story mostly in their back because my english was almost nonexistent. i also wrote whatever i hear the guard saying or my next neighbor was british and he would teach me a little bit.

i learned it was two different versions of english that confused me. so after that everything was taken away when i split the special program. now i was put in a pit i was alone with no one. i had no penner papers and i start to write on my close with my fingers. one time they would get irritated with me and told me what i was writing and i did not say anything. for one, i did not know what i was writing into, i did not want to give the satisfaction of knowing what i was writing.

he says if you don't stop writing i will punish you. and i did not stop writing because i wasn't aware i was writing anyway. then he had a very special restraint that kept my hands at all times shackled to my side. so it would take some years before i met my lawyer in 2005 after about two years of incarceration. that was my window. i just start writing then letters and i kept writing very small letters in the course of three months i produce the

manuscript that would be the guantánamo diary. i will show you. so my lawyers but then the government said this is too much and they took back everything. because as a guantánamo detainee i did not have the right to communicate privately with my lawyer. so if my lawyer could read my mail but he had to leave them in a secure cure room.

they say i was -- then they had to turn it over to the government and they had to read it and approve it or disapprove it. in my case they disprove everything. it would take seven and a half years of legal battle .. and forth until they gave us a heavily redacted manuscript. a lot of reduction in a very big portion sometimes this is a very good read because for -- people they don't have to read everything. i they can just say i read the book today.

i don't want to talk too much because that is not appropriate to the. so the book was published when i was in prison. i knew about it by accident. i was in guantánamo bay they subscribe to some lessons. i wasn't allowed only in 2016 to participate in classes. i took spanish go figure why it took spanish. in one second all of a sudden there was -- and it was russian tv and they showed my book and me and they said who is this guy

jokingly? nice like this is me. it was like freedom was like real freedom that after so many years of stifling and stonewalling and not allowing me to have any voice over i was allowed to have a voice even if it was partially stifled. and it's outdated too. it's seven and a half years but it was something very big for me to tell the world i am not that person. of course i went to afghanistan. i did not break the law so why should -- so i was working

inside myself in the power of writing and talking to people through different work was very powerful. i know your readers you want a book to change your life it gives you freedom just by reading one book or even one chapter. guantánamo bay was actually designed for the united states of america, the establishment to say we are sorry for having a democracy.

is simply democracy that did not work. that's why we need to take people without lawyers into process, judge them and put them in prison for almost two decades. that's what we will need to keep the world safe. i think this is wrong. and why i know it's wrong is because i grew up in a dictatorship. i sought democracy at work and i know that germany was safer and more peaceful than the autocratic regimes that exists in this part of the world. when i was released i took it upon myself to look at the

damage done. the government still refuses to give me back my manuscript. they give me one back. so i took it upon myself to repair the damage from my memory. i'm made mistakes but i did my best to give you this book. >> thank you we will come back and i'm sure the audience will have questions too. mark, tell us about your book. >> thank you. i was in a position of being an investigator of the task force that investigated him when he was at guantánamo and try to prevent his torture and the

special interrogation plan he was subjected to. i failed to do so. i'll start with my book i read a little bit from the introduction tell you about where we are as a nation. >> on september 11, 2001 the purpose and methods of were radically changed. a group of unsophisticated dogs and the charismatic leader live in a distant cave use a few thousand dollars to mount a surprise attack. some rudimentary knowledge of fly and box cutters they executed a successful military strike. they obliterated to the world's largest buildings in the heart of the financial industry and nearly scored a direct hit on the pentagon.

the most powerful country was momentarily helpless. despite spending almost 22% of our annual federal budget, approximately $400 billion to pay for the most highly trained military and weapons ever known, the united states was revealed as we can confused. as often happened i was looking in the wrong direction. looking back at what were had been rather than looking forward at what war was becoming. 9/11 made it clear what the new rules would be. soldiers would not wear uniforms or represent a nation. they would not -- unlike most soldiers since the beginning of time, they did not fear death. it was a secret army with no

central command. only a loose recruiting and training structure a democracy and contagion of anti- islamic to bearcat our allies the 9/11 attack seems irrational. a blind lashing out against western culture. they were not. they reflected a calculated strategy that has yielded the result the planners hoped for. the story quickly claimed responsibility for the attacks. they do not hate us for who we are as much as for where we were. the group had its roots in 1989 mostly young arab militants who flocked to afghanistan to join the holy war against the soviets. al qaeda initially aligned with

the u.s. receive training. but once the soviets were driven out, osama bin laden and the arab who became the leader turned his attention to the superpower that still retained a dominant position in the muslim world. their aim was and remains to drive us in our profit-making and or religious colonizers from the middle east a slow death by thousand. al qaeda is a war of attrition in which they would provoke action that would attract more followers to their cause slowly bleeding us of our treasure, our lives and our result. while we focus on tactics, they focused on strategies. as the death count grew so did their number followers.

fed by religious converts and once moderates who once feared for their lives, their family and culture. simply put, america got outplayed. worse than that, america got changed. while brave men and women were put in their lives on the line in iraq and afghanistan and other places, darker strained of america emerged in guantánamo bay. the many other dark prisons and interrogation rooms. under pressure of a new wear for the thruway are principles turned our back on covenants and conventions that the united states has led the way crafting we employed interrogated methods

borrowed from the nazis and north korean pow camps from half a century earlier. we treated detainees subhuman. and in that process we became less than human our self. worse of all we did it under washington's watchful eye. my book is one man's perspective. i've been battling al qaeda since the '90s and the first world trade center attack and after 9/11 i became the chief investigator for this process that mohammed was involved in. i can sit here before you today until you that i cannot guarantee to today that we are not torturing prisoners right now.

the first time we did this no one was ever supposed to know what we did. they were never supposed to see the light of day. as we sit here we have a citizen who has been in custody for more than six months those horrific crimes of the past may be ongoing today. thank you. >> thank you. you heard from two authors talking about the a sink wonton amo. andrea will give us some historical perspectives on many things. >> thank you. thank you for the book festival for bringing man. i'm honored to be here. he talked a little bit about what it's like to be a detainee. mark talked about what it's like to be part of a machine responsible for doing what happened. i want to talk about how we get

to a place like guantánamo. i don't think most people think of guantánamo as a concentration camp. why it ended up will hopefully illuminate. when they think about concentration camps is the most horrific version of concentration camps in history. there's more than 100 years that have happened on six continents. while that death camp example is in its own universe, not realizing what it grows out of puts us at a disadvantage. it's important to realize that camps existed.

cuba is the beginning and the ending of my book. during that time, the war for model in which you have raffles and insurgents were terrorists operating out of uniform it goes back quite away. concentration camps were developed for this issue. because he can't find the rebels in a convenient way. as we know this model of looking for terrorists and insurgents are trying to go through populations to grab these people that are not any inform we start to get closer to something that's recognizable. to get to the institution itself three things come together.

after 9/11 were outraged as a country. we want answers to keep it from happening again. then in 2003 we went into iraq. the detention policies that happened that global operations happily, there's not a great detention policy set up. it's very quickly overwhelms. i talked to several who were responsible for this and there is not a good plan of who they are beheld or when they would be released. we did decided we would not grant chief rick connections. we have a sloppy detention system and an administration deliberately looking for a couple things. one is to punish in a public and

defiant way until work on that perception of weakness. there's an early embrace of torture. after 9/11 it takes time for it to develop. unfortunately it did swamp things. we end up with torture at guantánamo. torture, guantánamo is the crown jewel within a short time of a network of detention. guantánamo becomes a visible symbol of the system that we had. the large one. you have a sloppy detention policy that inadvertently play into this. some deliberate efforts on part of the administration to advance torture that ultimately is not

going to guarantee rights under international law. you actually have a pre-existing place call guantánamo that has already served as a detention facility. in the early and mid- 90s there is waves of refugees coming out of cuba and haiti. we used guantánamo as a detention site even then. . .

>> to be under control detainees you don't want to give them any right and i don't want to emphasize too much those u.s. courts had to step in because of a group of hiv-positive patients without access to medical care or treatment because these type of detentions don't come out of nowhere wonton of a was identified as a site where it was possible to do these things there is a history and

a set up and it basically creates a nightmare to the u.s. credit we don't get a lot of credit but there are court cases that come up the bush administration realizes this in the second term much of this is counterproductive and terrible with diplomacy the use of torture is reduced or in some cases eliminated then obama comes with a terrible moment that happens that should be good in which he says we reject torture and guantánamo is a stain on american values and it should be closed it should be a great moment but he also says how

the military commissions are set up now we will do them right you had cases so the administration that starts guantánamo the court, then to disport butte congress starts to make laws to make it legal so we can continue know all three branches repudiating parts so now it becomes institutionalized in a way that i think will be incredibly difficult to get rid of it is very much against our values once obama said we are to close that it was during the obama administration was very clear they were not going to close it that was the official policy but none of the people in charge had any realist expectation it would close and it turned out to be correct it is still open and survived

obama and one of the big lessons to take away is i'm sure president obama thought he was putting an end to the worst aspects of this place but if by making that decision not to go after the people who had authorized these things, you can actually be a part of it if you think it is the stop button now somebody comes in after you and if they don't choose to stop that as well then maybe you are just making a hiatus in we don't know what is happening now. i don't have secret insider knowledge to tell you yes it is but how do we know? it has happened before once we become this nation looking at

the larger history of concentration camps and without that accountability you're almost never able to make a clean break even russia today is a good example but the problem was starting when guantánamo after 911 like the war on terror there is no endpoint and it continues to exist we can replicate in other ways and other places. i will ruin the end of my book the last few paragraphs leaving guantánamo on a clear day it is possible to see the naval base from above as the plane climbed the landmarks that cannot see for photograph security reasons the sense of justice and in the courtroom complex the detention site

safe from view rising higher over and hope open water along with the vanished remains of the first cuban concentration camp from a century of four half a world away the villages of north korea and the camps and for those systems yet to be discovered the last moment in time when no concentration camp existed was more than a country ago and it seems unlikely to come again the face of the planet is riddled with camps even from the vantage point of outer space it is still impossible there is always a location out of you on the far side of the globe were the innocent and guilty and in-between have been trapped for a time or for now or forever the camps reopen no final chapter can be

written yet. >> that did not ruin her book at all. but i am curious that new united states ran concentration camps in the philippines? >> he read my book that's why he knows. [laughter] >> but i want to have as much time for audience questions i want to ask a question so i will turn this around to the audience and in all three of your books you talk about the importance of fundamental importance of the rule of law so what makes us such a

fragile principal in the contemporary democracy and around the world? i think in some ways we did not realize how fragile we had become but it is fragile and it turns out it only takes a very small highly motivated group of people to undermine the rule law in a democracy and as long as they can manipulate a middle not necessarily to go along but one of the lessons special u.s. history in the last 15 or 16 years that it is a very small group like norms and precedent.

>> let me talk about how we got there because that timeline of historical perspective with a september 11 were there decisions made in the days weeks months years following those attacks that were stain on our constitution? anything built upon the rule of law with the nation that valued inalienable right to not be infringed upon by neither government nor man and we did just that. september 14 president george bush declared a national state of emergency and what he said was the al qaeda terrorist network which at the time was 400 people risks the

continuity of operations of the united states government and so the president said that the government basically could because of this threat from these perceived monsters that has superhuman powers to do things to us and they brought us to our knees and based on fear or ignorance and one of the things the president said he had the authority to do that dates back to 1215 and our constitution and so alexander hamilton said it was

a most formidable instrument of tyranny and just days later on september 17 but what's interesting about that decision by the commander-in-chief of the armed president --dash the armed forces in 1775 george washington sat at his camp in cambridge massachusetts the northern expeditionary force in canada and general george washington said we shall injure any prisoner that basically brought to such punishment as those crimes deserve up to and including death because they bring shame and disgrace upon themselves and on our country and that was the reaction of general

george washington 26 years earlier to engage in a battle that would have led to his death but on september 17 president bush made another remarkable decision that authorized the cia program the interrogation program and was interesting about that date 12 or 14 years to the day earlier the day our constitution was signed. george washington at the top so on that day of september 17 there was a decision to abandon the tried and true tactics that we use because those were not the core competencies of the cia the fbi had done it successfully

but the president decided to abandon those and on november 13, 2,001,001 issued a military order that said the department of defense not the department of justice has the authority to try and detain prisoners under military commissions and that's how i had to execute as a chief investigator and mohammed wound up at guantánamo with the president turned away from the constitution and the federal courts and instead the federal court system is incapable of trying terrorist. not factual historically we have been very successful over the years and very successful visiting information that was viable from people and on

january 11, 2002 i thought it was an incredible opportunity i really did to show the world that we are fair and just and an alternative to those regimes we don't compete with them but it didn't take long for me to realize by that summer as a right in the book those tactics from the cia related to guantánamo bay and on septembe september 25, 2002 a planeload of the torture architects like snakes on a plane because it came to guantánamo bay to explain and authorize and sanction the same techniques the cia was using it on that plane was

alberto gonzales which was george bush's lawyer into cheney's lawyer and acting general of the cia and michael chertoff from the department of justice. one week later a cia lawyer came to guantánamo to explain how to implement waterboarding and those techniques so when i saw that i said we will look back at this these are the things congressional hearings are made of. i could see it unfolding before my eyes it was an avalanche and i was at the bottom. you could see what was happening but nobody was listening or paying attention and we end up having a policy

of state concert torture that continues today. >> mohammed has a lot of passages as a non-american growing up in the authoritarian regime he had a lot of comments about american principles. can you weigh in on that? >> there are two points i would like to make in those points it is very unique to this region of the world. so the tragic events of 911 george w. bush made a statement to attack u.s. and

you say that al qaeda would never win. he meant. [inaudible] but those people were outside the rule of law. so are they criminal? but in democracy they cannot decide between guilt and

innocence and have the judiciary so clearly the point that i want to make is in this part of the world if you are african of these people want change for dignity and the people in germany muslims are secular. so then those don't work but

that was really very bad news for the people who want change and the other point i would like to make is i came knowing the danger because my friends told me if you go back you may get hurt i would say i don't care. so that's the point i want to

make it is very sad because of the regime that they should hel help. >> thank you. we have time for questions from the audience we really want people to ask short general interest questions without a long prelude. >> thank you. especially mohammed i am a british international human rights i just want to say that

the u.k. by its own silence because of the special relationship that we claim that we have with united states really is not enough and we had a lot of protest in the u.k. and we had a lot of protest in the u.k. but i just want to say the u.k. is complicit. >> a comment of the panelists? >> i do completely agree i hope i heard you correctly but that is because of political reasons but the american

people don't want this. >> a question over here. >> i understand although to be appointed as acting director of the cia and accused from these operations do you have insights into that or what do you think about that? >> i saw this last week and was pretty vocal about how shameful such an appointment would be. i cannot speak where she served time but it is clear through appointment that i

thought that was unwise and it sends the wrong message there were videotapes of the torture of prisoners and i called them prisoners now i was told i was not to use that term anymore in the department of defense we went to combat that we can never call them what they were which was prisoners of war. there were videotapes john rizzo the attorney from the cia says in his book and talks about and so does hose a rodriguez in his book and those are one of the reasons i wrote my book i wanted to be sure the record was clear the american people knew how we tortured. but gina was part of a process that would have evolved and it

is clear from the public record she had a hand in the videotapes in those interrogations to destroy evidence and obstruct justice they are not supposed to dispose of them they made a conscious decision of that consequence because it would be less if anybody saw the actual depravity or crimes against humanity that were occurring even if you buy into the legal medical coverage implement a program it was well beyond those things they wanted to destroy evidence of that. so i am very concerned and troubled donald trump ran for office to say we will do worse than waterboarding and i take him at his word he has appointed positions of responsibility to people that were involved with the torture program to start with legal

counsel lawyer who helped to sign off. >> we have just a few minutes of time i want to squeeze in a few more minutes of people. >> there is some discussion of the responsibility of license psychology professionals as torture architects and a lot less discussion of accountability from the lawyers snakes on the plane to pave the way for the program to be implemented so any thoughts on that topic if we are likely to see any accountability from the lawyers or by the bar? >> i have not seen that. the program the torture

program, the architects of that were to psychologist had no experience with al qaeda or the middle east or interrogation so there have been challenges to the american psychological association against the licenses of some of those involved in the torture program. i am unaware of any meaningful accountability they have been taken to court in seattle and has a judgment against him for torture but there has been no sections that i have seen anyone lawyer or psychologist or medical personnel or doctors who participated or were involved.

>> you mentioned about destroying the evidence and willing to take the consequences because they are not as bad as it does come to light but has there been any professions for the cia or dod people? >> promotions. [laughter] but along those lines with some of the talk now that you hear with the cia with the nomination the farther you get from the events that allows the extrajudicial stuff to happen the more play it everybody is doing this or panic in the moments after that it becomes an excuse for pretty egregious and awful behavior but one of the lessons i learned it is very rarely immediately after the

sinking of the lusitania or bombing of pearl harbor actually have to get the energy and momentum within the organization to do this pretty horrific thing and it takes time so when it says the panic happened we didn't know what to do we didn't know better it is important talking about it years after people were inside trying to keep this from happening people in d.c. who where career people saying this is wrong there were always people who understand this shouldn't be happening if we are making that argument so later with the case to say we didn't know better at the time that should never be an excuse that is accepted because inevitably there was

documentation in that moment. >> mohammed you have anything to add? >> more so of what andrea said. >> okay. other questions? >> how ironic. >> i just wanted to say you can tell by the stunned silence in the audience so the question becomes what do we do now? what do we all do now to reverse that?

>> i can tell you historically speaking i think people should take action wherever they feel comfortable matter whatever method writing letters enough of those that you can do in your own world historically elected legislators barry rarely put a stop to this kind of thing is what i have found they are complicit or two-week generally speaking they can't or they don't want to because they get a benefit out of it but historically what has made a difference although not always come if you can strengthen support for court and court cases anything to help strengthen the judicial system that does have more success standing up to this kind of stuff so supporting

the aclu has done a lot of work around guantánamo and kinds of detention to work that in the courts to bringing cases to argue them. and to strengthen that as much as you can at the local level something we have fallen down on that will not fix anything tomorrow but sometimes i don't think people understand how democracy works and the consequences of that. >> mohammed can you speak to your relationship with the aclu and amnesty international and other organizations helped obtain your release? >> absolutely. from the aclu they were sent to help me. i had never heard of them.

i only knew of them after i was released. of course that was from my lawyers and amnesty international spoke about me and they raised awareness that those people who set up a powerful government and who was i? i was nobody. i speak funny, funny culture

because they are humane and decent human beings and when obama came to power he was banning torture he thinks that was good but that itself was bad because it sent a message now there are no laws. so this tactic is already known in this part of the world now they can say the constitution is bad and i say no. they are just taking the existing laws. >> thank you.

i have a question i don't know and intelligent way to ask it but your books all deal with people treating each other horrible and inhumane humanity at its worst. with some exceptions but can you talk about your thoughts on human nature and the big picture stuff having done your research with your experiences and writing your books? >> yes one of the things i tried to illustrate where these actions that i observed two people opposing this and as the torture was spreading from the cia to the department of defense and further spreading the senior lawyer of every military service post the judge advocate general and

they redacted his name from the book he refused to allow his dog to go to interrogations the dog bit the interrogator i guess he sends to the real threat was. [laughter] so that army captain intelligence officer they said those are in for reason and a friend of mine said who saw them stripped naked and he went a reported violation to the geneva convention even if

they did not apply in afghanistan they applied in iraq with the sanctioned war and tried to oppose it and the general counsel of the navy the first official who did not turn their back. i brought my claims up to the army chain of command and they agreed it was wrong the general counsel of the navy appointed to that position said this is who we are. we have to take affirmative action to try to stop this from occurring the presidency is at stake and so i tried to illustrate those actions but is a book i hope people will read people putting incredible positions under incredible

pressure i was put under incredible pressure of the time but that is our job so there are some heroes and other people we need to use as examples. >> he put his career advancement on the line on the line at the time he was going to be with the general counsel of the cia with the nsa and he is truly a patriot and one of my heroes. he is a guy stood up to the administration and it really it was none of his business doing work with the secretary of defense that he had the courage of his convictions to say we have to stop this he did minimize to make sure mohammed was not water boarded so we stopped that threat but

it would have been even worse with those are the people we want to see appointed to positions to challenge authority that's what al qaeda did that we sworn oath to the constitution to protect it from all enemies foreign and the mystic that is who we should be looking for in these positions. >> to tie-in what i said earlier there is a lot of dark things with human nature but positive it is important to say doesn't make you totally depressed about humanity? no. it is the opposite there were

some precursors but they developed late and you have to have a party or government pushing this line people inside a government actively doing terrible things because they have to overcome the organization or the institution and as a whole they have to be coached it isn't natural and you really have to drill people to accept it so the way to intervene with people accepting that to neutralize the propaganda is an important tool not that we are powerless and inevitable to predict the path that these take we can make a big difference and that is to not accept the rhetoric we did get after 911 to say we have to go around the rule of law with

those terrorist ideals. >> as many inspiring can you speak a little bit? >> so they have this beautiful system of checks and balances.

and also to say these people are corrupt because the government has weapons and money and resources there is no check on them than they would do bad stuff. so the only way is to be more transparent. >> and you also speak about the relationships that you have with your guards and the people in the camp? >> in my lifetime you still have slavery.

[inaudible] i was always amazed myself and i was treated worse than a slave. >> excuse me. the audio is breaking up. can i hang up and call you right back? you're just not coming through. >> while you do that i will

say we got to this important part of all three of our books because of the attention practices the way people were siphoned out and came into guantánamo many that ended up there should never have been anywhere near that assumption have been questioned and detained certainly maybe some would have been built cases but it would have been a very differentiated group of people of what you can imagine that was part of the problem they were not even low value most of them were no value detainees so this is the larger pot that mohammed is thrown into that moment it is a much more mixed bag than it is now.

>> now we have him back so now you were starting to talk about slaves and your thoughts. >> so i was being treated worse than a slave absolutely not i was nobody to them.

and then i made friends and said why do you break the law? and then would tell me that he knew he would go to hell but he couldn't do otherwise because they would send him to a very bad job i make friends. >> do we have any other questions from the audience?

>> i wanted to know if there were any repercussions? >> yes. the book took 233 days to be released that's the part they did not want you to read i was told by my contact fortunately the aclu the institute for first amendment rights decided to represent me and the government with their lawsuit that they were imprint fringing on my first amendment right to speak out on a topic in the public interest. and it took letters to six senators and a lawsuit in newsweek and a few other journalists came to my support to even get the book published

i wanted out in the first days of the president trumpet administration because i thought another he would read it i would have to tweet it line by line. [laughter] but so many in positions of responsibility reading a book of the chief investigator for al qaeda that might derive some benefit and i thought those efforts initially a thought it was delayed because of the acl you lawsuit and information could be used in the case against them and others so i recognize from the department of defense after i stood up to donald rumsfeld and admiral church did an investigation. initially they told me rumsfeld wanted to know who was questioning his policies

it was clear my career within cis was over and then i left the department of homeland security years later. but there are people who are probably not very happy with me and others who were. right now i work with human rights first i think we all need to stand up and speak out or citizens groups like the north carolina commission or the commission against torture and i mean this to pejoratively but soccer moms but it means that people who say there are things going on in north carolina we oppose to engage the citizens we will contact our legislators and we

will ask people to testify i spoke out as a special from torture and others came even from the u.k. so it is a government by and avid for the people in the greatest threat to them so i urge each of you to speak out about things that is what i would say. >> following up from your both with the career advice on the other hand the two gentlemen to design the torture program. >> initial contact is 483 but that was cut short and the

absolute travesty of the program is many career officials in the cia while they outsourced torture to psychologist who had no experience time career personnel that they need to develop these approaches to utilize to be the only effective way. >> selling someone reads my boo book, i think the question you might ask yourself is if we remove those techniques to that false and fabricated information based on the study of 1957 did a study of the service members and north koreans could obtain propaganda information so we could use those same practices

if not for that same information for policy solutions and we did use information to drive us to war with iraq. >> she has a lot of information about that chapter as well. >> kind of to be the integrated part of the detention but i would like to say that people should stand up so with president trump is very vocal and direct about his opposition to the ideals we are talking about like support for waterboarding and it is crucial to remember through that last election he was not the only candidate who was saying that there were several and guantánamo is a very good example to say these detentions were before 911 then a huge were before 911 then a huge under president

bush but then he got rid of certain things a while seven aspects with the military tribunals torture allowed to continue clearly a lot of focus on president trump but it is important to understand guantánamo itself in this whole idea is up because it is more underlying things and one person and what we have to look at and how we deal with democracy more than one way anyone can present. >> mohammed you have the last word if you'd like to add to that discussion any preferences?

[inaudible] 's is not our way. otherwise they are willing to tell you that. >> okay this has been an enlightening and educational and interesting experience. a couple of things before i close, please do complete the evaluation forms books are available for signing by the author he will stay on the skype connection for a few minutes if people want to talk directly i will autograph as best i can in arabic for him. [laughter] if anybody here can arrange a visa for him to visit the country he will sign your book twice. thank you to the authors. [applause]