school board decided to name the school robert e lehigh school which the white he would say just to honor our history the rich history of the confederacy but for the black immunity it is seen as a gesture.

>> inside the museum is this quotation from president theodore roosevelt no other book of any kind ever written in english has ever affected the whole life of the people. tee10 how is that reflected tee10 how is that reflected museum? >> we buildse a museum looking at three different angles of the bible first what the story is talking about and the history of the book as it spreads around the world through translation and finally what is the influence or the ripple effect as it translates into different cultures? certainly the story of american history is full of

many people interacted with those different cultures within american culture. so he draws upon his own experience as american with different dynamics happening but also at the museum of the bible we try to branch out what is the influence of the bible with different cultures beyond america. >>host: one of those ripple effects is the influence on literature that is that we aren talking about today. how is it used? >> the bible has become common in ordinary discourse we are familiar especially western culture with the theme of concept or ideas orha characters with expressions. so this becomes a pretty familiar repository that riders can draw upon for

different reasons. >>host: look at some of the books you have on display including john steinbeck. what is a book about and what is the biblical influence? >> here at museum of the bible we have the display set up to show how specifically the titles draw upon the expressions. so this draws on genesis verse six with the story of cain and abel because in the bible you have god sending kane out to banish kane after is breaking the code of conduct and killing his brother. so steinbeck in his narrative draws on this novel of good and evil with theat struggle

between getting between brothers trying to please their father and steinbeck can pick up on this title to give it extra meaning. >> ernest hemingway? >> yes. let me pass on that for the moment. >> for mark that title is pulling from ecclesiastes it is a deeply meaningful book because it starts off with vanity and is a struggle to find where do we find the meaning of life? so when ecclesiastes chapter three verse two, there is a there ise a time to mourn and a timeno to die from the litany of

different ideas there is a time to do different things so the volume is looking back on this experience of culture and all you see around you is carnage and it is in that that they are finding to come back and find the relationship of love so in this devastation at the same time you can find love. in this sense they draw on that biblical quote to revoke this sense of toil and struggle and carnage but yet the meaning of life. >>host: there is a fiction book and historical fiction, but you also have nonfiction so now is talk about a very well-known holocaust survivor.

>> yes. y all rivers run to the sea with this memoir pulling on ecclesiastes verse one chapter one verse seven. it is like the cycle and even though the water runs to the sea it is never full you have a sense of trouble and toil but yet at the same time there is hope. it is a cycle for himself as he looks back at his childhood as well as the atrocities of the holocaust. also also when he gets involved with social justice. this expression i think with the sense of constant hope

thated we as people try to have a greater sense that suffering doesn't seem to disappear but yet it doesn't extinguish either. >> all three of those deal with world war i and world warh ii. >> yes. even inn our recent history we spoke quite a bitbo about the quotes from ecclesiastes but there is a lot in it that expresses similar struggles meaning -- to find a meaning in this struggle. >> where is it in the bible? >> is in the hebrew bible most of it is traditionallydi attributed to king solomon so it is viewed as a great golden age of wisdom in ancient israel with king david and

solomon and then the greater reflection as you go through the psalms and consider wisdom that reflects on israel's view now that they are celebrating but the psalms give a great sense of difficulty and how do we make sense out of challenges? or is god really favoring us? all these nations are around us with different practices or their own sense of ethics or morals. >>host: seth pollinger we were here in 2015 before it opened in 2017 have you been surprised of the number of thehe books that use the bible? >> i have it has been a big education for me when i came from the background of

interpretation more ancient settings where the riders within the books play off of each other or express the idea of intertextuality that we see in modern literature that is an important concept but i didn't study a lot of recent literature in the bible for like most of us so to step into this i could see a different field and work with different professors that we have two advisors from baylor university that spent quite a bit of time in the classroom but the depth to revoke the different ideas and to use those weather drawing on a

biblical theme to go in a similar direction or to subvert that go in another direction is interesting and ending. >> to our visit to the museum of the bible here in washington d.c. opening november of last year. 30million bibles are sold every year the number one best-selling book inininor the d and our goal for the next hour and a half is to talk about literature and how the bible is used in modern literature and ancient literature et cetera. you want to participate here is how you can do so.

>> so to ask about this exhibit about band bibles burning? >> it is and exhibit it took its own learning curve of how we wanted to do it but originally we thought let's do an exhibit on persecution but realize that we wanted to take a different turn and the whole exhibit is here to talk about the influence the bible has had on people and because of that we want to look specificallyib at how it is translated into different societies often times community transformation they start to look at themselves whether different ethics or morals within the society so specifically the exhibit discusses what happens when

people start to have that larger regime they are ae part of with the holocaust in those struggles and during red china. with a feud between protestants and catholics persecuting the jews that basically the government that is in place looking down to the minority groups to make sure they don't get out of line. >> is the bible the most banned book ever? i think arguably you could say so but the reality a lot of books have been burned but

normally it is what represents people that is a target so during the holocaust it wasn't just that hebrews strolls a lot of other cultural books that were viewed as dangerous that were caught in firess that certainly the bible has been censored and banned on many occasions. >>host: other exhibit is the bird printing press what is the significance? >> that really led to an explosion of literacy and influenced the rest of world society butly essentially gutenberg was not completely as novel as we assume that for a century you have the chinese and the koreans also working on a press putting letters in

place with removable tights but gutenberg really turned it into a machine that could be replicated and certainly in western europe so that he put together this printing press, it was like this worker who had the find skills to put these letters together into a form and it inspired a revolution for them to start and printing books much more quickly and eventually that led to an economy and that also pushed greater literacy and a greater demand that we want books and then send bibles to people and other languages there is a lot of bible translation and even

before that so there have been translation going back to the printing press that leads toto that exclusion. >> what was the version of the bible gutenberg was printing? >> prior to that time he was printing a latin bible that was part of the tradition. >>host: is there is a gutenberg printed bible here? do we have a section of the gutenberg bible there only a few in existence the library of congress has a full version but our goal is to set out several editions in a larger exhibit like a little table to allow kids to try to put the letters together. so our emphasis is to give the

opportunity to contribute to see how does this work. >>host: to get people where we are where we seated? >> close to the bible exhibit so inn this section is called bible in the world we have four different sections with 55000 square feet total and we have people stand on the platform to have that for d experience with wound and water and takes you through 11 places in washington that teacher asked places america and the bible immediately experience and those that have 23 pavilions focusing on different topics that you can

see throughout the world where the bible has influence on language or film or music in a couple of the topics we talk about now. >> let's talk about the other bookspl on display and that includes the version from 1905 but what we are focusing on is giving an introduction -- introduction for quotes and ideas for their title but for fortune she pull's on ecclesiastes 71st for that it is in the house of mourning but in the house of mirth so it is a social critic writing about this lavish and excessive elements in the gilded age and how the wealthy

the social critique is they are still destroying through their materialism. so on the one hand you have the expectation that life and glamour and popularity this is where we find meaning that she goes back to ecclesiastes to find language to invoke tuesday actually we find meaning through mourning and coming face to face with their own challenges and struggles. >> i think a lot of viewers will understand the reference the needles i. >> of course this comes from matthewie 1924 the needle will

go through the eye of a needle than for the rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven so this is a discussion on the values and social status of the rich and how she drills down into this life of poverty that some people find value in that with this automatic assumption of riches. >> there is a lot of interpretations of that quote. >> and that isty the beauty of the often times literary riders drawing on the bible because you can use the quotes and bring it into a new setting to give it new meaning so we in the 21st century can pull it in and give our own different spin and this is

the play of words. i think throughout time there have been arguments against the value of poverty and the social movements that were important and caring for the poor which is a large topic in the bible but certainly without dispute. taken and debated through the rich history of biblical interpretation. >> let us now praise famous men that came out 1941 what is it about? >> the title is chapter four verse one talk about famous men and also praise those who

have no memorial. so by default part of the value of the title is you first read it you would think it is referring to that popularity. . . . . >> these are the people that have no memorial. i think it is this volume to celebrate the dignity of these people. >> host: are these authors, in

your view, are they well-educated and what is in the bible? >> guest: this is an exceptional question. the reality is that they aren't necessarily and they don't have to be because the bible has become so prevalent to western civilization that authors are able to grabb expression without necessarily being deep in their own interpretation of bible. they're able -- because names are familiar it's advantageous for writers oftentimes to be able to plan things they are familiar with and culture of course a lot of the quotes ytalking about with these titls are not necessarily familiar to most people in the times you do have literary writers as well as literary critics who are steeped in the bible because it has been

such an important source of literary thought both in ancient times and throughout many m generations. that literary thought has taken many twists and turns in our own day as we are deeply thoughtful of social justice issues and then it becomes a very important book because even in this book it presents different views on different topics. the right ear of ecclesiastes as we mentioned wrestling through what is the meaning of life and the oil in life and there's these different things that are happening. that happens in many other writers and you can read different portions of the book and they ask are they saying the same thing so it becomes a book great fuel to draw from. >> host: some of the other books on display are the lord of the flies by william golden, wrinkle in time, now a a movie, so those are the other books that have typicalibre references.

(202)748-8200 and for those of you in the mountain and pacific time zone and let's hear from william in lake charles louisiana. good afternoon from the museum of the bible, william. >> caller: good afternoon. i want to ask him about the 1611 addition of the king james bible. i had heard that it contained the apocrypha and i wonder if he would comment on it contained the apocrypha first and second maccabees and if he could comment on the apocrypha. >> host: the 1611 version of the bible whether it contains the apocrypha. >> host: what is that by the way? >> guest: we oftentimes called the old testament apocrypha are

equipped do this under jewish writings the woman during the second temple in different locations around ranging from the area around israel and also down into egypt and for the rest expressing different views that were w spread around. the christian bible for many, many generations dominantly feature these books that are in the old testament apocrypha. the old testament apocrypha is included in the septuagint translation that the questions in the western church would use as a basis for the bible, the vulgate for example. it wasn't until the protestant reformation that those performers went back to original language and translated that they went back to the hebrew bible did not include these additional jewish writings and

they debated whether that should included and they did not include that adjustment apocrypha. many of the english translation that happened after the protestant reformation did not include the apocrypha but the apocrypha was still included in a number of relations and even to today. these writings are common for the catholic bible, as well as eastern orthodox christians and several different committees. >> host: michael in fayette, alabama. >> caller: i've much about the museum of the bible through many radio and american family radio but didn't know that it was the first day of its opening. speaking of that, you hear all too often word of god, word of

god from the state leaders", the mother church from catholic leaders. i am sick and tired of these leaders not telling you how to think that what to think and i want to prove that a christian can take the bible ultra- seriously but think for himself or herself and i'm so glad you answered a question about the a apocrypha. which are the books that the old testament describes did not include? i know the book of enoch is one and they -- >> host: let's get an answer for that. thank you. assess? >> guest: there are additional books that the first color and color mentioned.

there is a collection and they range in the have different books in eastern christian orthodox volumes as well so the answer is not extremely simple but there are over a dozen additional books. fortunately, we have a large display in our history former you can explore the different books involved included in the different cannons that you can find and the different bibles will have around the world today. we'd encourage you to come. i trust you and enjoy your visit. >> host: and this is not opening day of the museum. it opened in november of last year but we are just here on book to be talking about literature and the bible. next call is dennis in west palm beach,h, florida. good afternoon. >> caller: good afternoon, gentlemen. sorry to do this to you, i called up to ask a question and now you got me on another one also. i'll try to be quick. my understanding is that regarding what you refer to as

the apocrypha is the head of egypt a guy named ptolemy wanted copies of every book to the library of alexandria and the rabbis book together and that was called the septuagint because that's the word for 70. in any event, all those old books that are not in the protestant old testament now or in the septuagint in an orthodox jewish friend of mine is a very practicing jewish guy and i asked him one day if the dead sea scrolls included the books that are not in the catholic bible and he said no, they were not in the dead sea scrolls and he called me up and said i've got a confession to make i was hoping that those books will not be in the dead sea scrolls but they were. in any event moving away from that my other question is could you explain to everybody the misunderstanding regarding the catholic church and the bible

prior to the protestant rebellion of 15 to 17 and the printing press being posted in the early 1440s because the situation that the catholic church didn't want anyone to the bible when in reality to make one bible out of animal skins and everything cost a fortune so they had to change it up so people wouldn't steal the bible and then, of course, in the gutenberg printing press with movable type came out and everyone started getting bibles. [inaudible conversations] >> host: you seem to have a deep knowledge of the bible's history. why is that? >> caller: number one, i'm roman catholic but that's not why i have the deep knowledge of it. i used to do radio shows for religion, politics and i used had a thought of anything i research it and do a show on it

and that's how i happen to do the shows on the subjects i'm mentioning right now but i should mention jeff -- >> host: thank you, sir. >> guest: to answer your question history is compensated. there's rarely one reason for it. i think a very important topic is the issue of literacy. in the middle ages literacy was low and people access to the bible was in many cases visual. you think of stained-glass and it was communal in theet sense that you go to the cathedral for example and it's something that neople do together. it's not often reading bibles on their own. when the printing press comes along it up new channels for literacy in coming centuries that will revolutionize society. that is a topic that is

important in the question to ask. >> host: another presidential quote you have here in the museum and this is woodrow wilson, note study is more important to the child than the study of the bible and of the truth which it teaches. what does that mean? >> guest: well, for many centuries and even in our early years again we were just talking literacy but the bible was part of this both motivator as well as subject that was studied. many people used in a desire to read the bible wanted to spread education but at the same time many people useddu the bible asa tool for education. as the educational systems in america and they are still developing now but from the early years of development the bible was largely this main

source of writing to be able to use to supplement as well as illustrate and even running up through woodrow wilson the bible is a very common source of ideas and expressions as we have been mentioning. >> host: there is a term that a lot of our viewers of certain generation will remember and that is the mcguffey reader. what was it and it is a was not in it. >> guest: this is great. it ties back to your question to me as far as i have learned. of course i didn't read a mcguffey reader as i was going up so it's something i have learned in the past. eyythe mcguffey reader they stad created it in 1830s and in the

early days of public education you have lessons of education side-by-side with using the bible as to teach these biblical lessons and so this is a primary book used throughout the schools so by the time you get to the 1960s they had published over 100 the million mcguffey readers so a very primary book used in education significant for american history and even the bible's influence in american history is the educational lessons and the lessons side-by-side. these ethical and moral lessons that were included had a great influence on shaping the american mind and conscience especially in these earlier days and now it's becoming a littlean more of a distant memory. >> host: the mcguffey reader did include lessons in the readings? >> guest: it did and that was part of the purpose.

of course there so many of these volumes out there. here at the museum we have a couple on display so you can see these simple side-by-side examples. >> host: you also have a display or someone else mentioned here that it's this man and was he. >> guest: man it is fascinating to realize how the bible had a pretty integral partnership in a sense and an association with early public schools. horace mann was one of the leaders in massachusetts and help the development of the curriculum and in the 1830s when the states began establishing the tax supported public schools horace mann was instrumental in having the bible become part of the gillam and this resulted in teaching judeo-christiann values. talked about responsibility and virtuous citizenship and certainly man had had the view

that the bible would have a good influence on people if it was used. it turns out to be part of our american history. >> host: let's hear from amber in lake charles, louisiana. amber, you are on the tv. >> caller: hello. how are you doing today? >> host: we are fine. make your comment or question, please. >> caller: can we talk a little bitt about [inaudible] >> host: james baldwin? thank you. a reminder to our viewers that if you're on a cell phone make sure to talk right into it. don't use the speaker. want to make sure we hear you clearly. >> guest: i'm afraid i don't have any good comments on that one. i would encourage probably reading some of the volumes out there on literature but i know there's an important social critique there and even as we

are talking about the relationships between different communities and races and so i think it's an important question now but i don't feel like i have the confidence to talk about it. >> host: mary in pennsylvania. hello, mary. >> caller: hello. thank you for taking my call. i have eight children and were a blendedin a family of christiand use and i was wondering where you focus on the family? the relationship between husband and wife and children in the family system? if it is all individualism and the declaration of interdependence now has to be a declaration of interdependence. you see what i mean trac?

>> host: thank you ma'am. >> caller: that's an important issue here at the museum of the bible we are touching on it some and not touching on other areas. we do touch on it is theru importance of the civil relationship and constructive relationships between different faith traditions. you mentioned using christian as well as people from different cultural backgrounds and you feel like an part of the exhibits are to demonstrate how the bible can be part of that discussion and can lead to social harmony as much as the bible has been a part of disharmony in the past. i think able to touch them on that and when it comes to the family specifically we chose to use an exhibit about the bible's influence on family specifically to talk about how the bible has a different influence on the way families relate together in different faith traditions as well as areas from around the world other ireland and india in here in america and we'd show a

little bland there but the that you make is important and we felt like if you had a bigger museum you can get to it but unfortunately were not able to go inn depth on how did the bibe inform how husbands relate to the wives and so on unfortunately. maybe in the future. >> host: eight floors in this museum, 430,000 square feet and about half of them are on display. according to the bible of the museum to take nine days, eight hours a day to tour the entire museum. orlando is calling in from alabama and he is -- hello. >> caller: yes, sir. i was wanting to know why the catholic church changed the sabbath day from saturday to a sunday because it was started on

the jewish holiday with the christians follow that and jesus when he made the covenant, a covenant can't be broken after the person that makes the covenant iss dead but he worshiped on saturday and he's in all his apostles did until he died. even at his death after his death they wouldn't take care of the body on the sabbath day. paul went back and preached three times on the sabbath day to the those who were in the places that weree they were status. all the churches until up about 200 years and constantine change theat sabbath day from saturdayo the day of the sun, sundayy because they were worshipers in rome. >> host: orlando, we've got the point.t. seth? >> guest: as orlando says clearly the early christians were all jews and the christians

were a branch off judaism. at that time judaism had a fair number of different routes and the followers of jesus became one of those different groups. jesus and his followers would have observed the sabbath within their jewish context but by the time we see the book of revelation we see that there is this worship on what they call the lord's day which was celebrating this memory of the resurrection. i'm not sure i know the details of exactly as we move from a six-day to a seventh date let's say but i believe it was a fairly early. >> host: part of me. were appear on the second floor of the museum of the bible and this is the impact for we are talking about literature in the bible and one of the biggest impacts of the bible is on early america and a companion network

american history tv has taken a tour of the bible museum. we want to show you a little bit of their tour when it comes to the bible in early america. [inaudible] >> this is one of my favorite cases. i often ask what is my favorite artifact and it's really not fair. we have so many cool things here. one of the colonists first came to new york they were not allowed to print bibles in the english language. the crime held the rights to the h text. the geneva bible and king james bible and the catholic bibles would come from europe or the crown, if you will. when we declared our independence in 1776 the import of products from london

increased and it brought to congress attention we had a lack of english bibles. one of the colonial printers by the name of robert aitken presented the idea to produce in english text here in america so first in 1777 he produced an english new testament which was from the king james bible. they had the rights to basically make robert aitken an outlaw if you will or an outlaw printer. but there were only two of the first english new testament printed in america in existence. one was out of the new york library or you can come to the museum of the bible and see this one here. in 1782 he was presented with an entire bible and this bible was reviewed by the chaplains of congress and went from congress to congress itself and in which

they gave him permission to print this bible so this would be the first complete english bible ever printed in america. the only bible to receive congressional authorization to be printed by robert aitken. he learned that the crown literally held the rights to the english text and included the congressional authorization in each and every one of theti bibles. he knew that it was permitted to own c a bible not produced by te crown. [inaudible] that only did he include that in the text but he included the original congressional authorization [inaudible] one of the things i find amusing about the bible is that on the front page he tells you how to find him.

it's three down above the coffee shop. apparently there is only one starbucks at the time in philadelphia but i find that amusing. if you comee to the coffee shop you can find his job. when you look at the particular authorization you see the name of charles thompson and he's one of american on sunday heroes but he's the very first secretary of the continental congress and he signed the authorization for robert aitken to print the bible. when charles thompson retires he was a group of scholars himself and heteis himself would produce first english bible translated in america from the septuagint. this would make charles thompson not only the first secretary of the continental congress but also was the signatory that authorization of john that

hancock's signature on the declaration of independence. he helped design the great seal of the united states and then he would become the very first united states citizen to print or translate the bible in america. he's a pretty interesting fell fellow. >> host: that's a little bit about the bible in early america part of the american history tv were of the bible museum. you can watch that online in its entirety at c-span .org. seth is with us here on the second floor of the bible museum we want to talk about and continue the conversation about education in the bible and its use in schools and universities and christian colleges et cetera. >> guest: great. >> host: how has it been used? >> guest: certainly outside of the united states but also in the united states we mentioned on our display we have about martin luther and even back in the 1500s there was this effort

to establish christian schools for the purpose of they want people to be able to read the bible and again this is a case where the bible motivates education and we talked about the mcguffey reader where education motivates opportunity to have people read the bible as well and we see both things eappening. that has been happening for quite a while. we mentioned luther in germany and here in the united states we see this in many communities. as the jews in america set up schools the torah their books of moses are great motivation help there trying to train people in. is it just because of the book? the book communicates their own identity and shapes their identity and their sense of who they are as a community. we see that with the

african-americans using the bible as part of their book in setting up their schools early on and we see this with protestants and with catholics and later on as we have greater immigrations of muslims they will use the koran as well so throughout all these different committees we see how these important writings or sacred writings are instructive and they want to put these at the center of their education. >> host: with earlier american education we looked at the bible being put in heree o in americad was the bible often the only book in a house? >> guest: well, it would be the most common book because of how many times it was printed. i thank you would see other books certainly as time went on longer and more books were printed. i don't know that i'm aware of studies of what would be the most common books and when did they appear but you had book books like uncle tom's cabin

that over 100,000 copies sold b quickly so you'll see other books and the bible is certainly not the exclusive book. it just happens to be one the most common books. it in turn often use interests. you mentioned uncle tom's cabin in you got influences of the bible on that so it's an easy one to grab. i think oftentimes there's associations which you will see with other books. >> host: next we moved to the science and the bible literature section but let's hear from james in virginia first. hello, james. >> caller: i was curious with all the different publications and variations of the bible that have been printed over the years to any of them refer to the t church other than the church of christ or church of god or their geographic origin? i thank you for letting me

calling. >> host: why do you ask that question? >> caller: i never found any church other than those in the bible and there are so many in the world that i was curious of how if their interpretations in the new publications have change things? >> host: thank you sir. >> guest: church oftentimes is a term about a community or gathering of people that believe similarly and you mentioned the h christ.and you mentioned the early on you have the distinctions within the community and the west has this schism with the east and so you have eastern charleston western church and they develop their own distinct traditions in many ways and practices and protestant church later on will split off with the west and have many denominations as well so i'm not sure if i'm hitting on

your point exactly but definitely it will get into very important distinctions that reflect and at least subtle if not quite a bit different senses of identities between the communities as time goes on. >> host: back to literature and the bible. stranger in a strange land in 1961. this is sciencehe fiction isn't it? >> guest: it is. but the bible has been so influential across genres that again we highlight the title, stranger industry land referring in to: twenty-two speaking about moses who is in the land of midian and as the a story goes he runs away from egypt and is running for his life after he has killed an adaption and so in this sense he is able to pull ond that strangr land idea andl ond that strangr

comparing this with the science fiction of this trip to mars and this survivors coming back to this world that is post- world war iii and the world looking totally different as he comes back to it. example.t. the people can evoke the bible for an agent idea or agent expression but hold into a contemporary age. he's able to make something new with it. >> host: seth has a phd from southeastern baptist theological seminary in biblical interpretation and where is this located? >> guest: right outside of raleigh, north carolina. >> host: and a masters in it of any for masters college which is where? >> guest: in southern california, latinos area. i've not been a pastor but definitely enjoy the environment of the museum where itoyen can a

collegial civil discussion over how do we understand history and it's been a great environment. >> host: paul in north carolina. good afternoon. >> caller: good afternoon. thank you for having me ask the question. >> host: what is the question, paul? >> caller: the question is in this museum do they have any kind of history of how our bible come to us like the four gospels, matthew, mark, luke and john were written after these apostles had died and if the bible -- if the museum has a section on the council of nicaea in compiling the bible at that time and all the archaeological

finds that had been discovered recently that show at the beginning of christianity in the first and second century that there were books that used to be in thee, bible but they banned those bibles and call those people who read those bibles apostates and stuff like that. to have a history section like that in the museum? >> guest: yeah, thank you, paul. we do to an extent. these are compensated topics for of a lot of historicaln theories that even some of the things you mentioned are in, discussion bt debatable of what is evidence and what does the evidence point to.

i museum exists to interest some of the topics and factors involved so for example we feature manuscripts that demonstrate, as you mentioned, the four gospels that are often traveling around with each other. we have a manuscript that shows the luke ending and the john beginning. at the same time we have a replica of the gospel of mary and yes, in that time. there are many riding circulating in some of those writings are being held or shared among different communities and there are factors involved as far as communities are reading it and are they reading it as scripture or as encouragement and so even in some of the descriptions you gavede there's a lot of

competitions to it. we try to get to introduction but these are deeply debated issues. thank you for the question. >> host: anthony-what part of bible comes from oral tradition and what part of the transcription of the written source? >> guest: i believe that was anthony it's a complicated topic. in these earlyth societies the literacy is extremely low and it's an oral tradition and societies that the agent east were passing traditions along from the generation and they have systems of memorizing those and their memories and memorization and not exactly the way we think of it. you almost have to learn about how this oral society develops in we see similar stories like the flood story and the one we read about with noah and the ark in the bible sounds a little different but a lot of similarities because the story is passing through with the epic of gilgamesh and so on.

compensated topics but important even in how the bible was understood by the hebrew people and how we understand it today in an age where we are doing a lot of critical study of looking back in understanding how the bible was formed. >> host: bible museum is located just off the mall in washington dc and close to the capital. it's open seven days a week and the next call is joe in laredo, texas. hello, joe. >> caller: good morning. if the previous caller almost stole my question which is i'd y like to comment on the inclusion and then the exclusion of angels in the bible and i'm hanging up second here you to the tv. >> host: angels in the bible. >> guest: the hebrew bible has had this early idea of angels throughout their literature so christian literature as well would have continued that

tradition. during the second temple time period of jewish writings you have development of apocalyptic literature which will have a much more developed sense of angels and a celestial dimension and that will tie into later on with questions of how that relates to a messianicad tradition. i think the actual angels celestial, and even these kind of things was probably a regular concept that did develop a bit more in the second temple. and continues to be a fascinating topic today. time back to the literature it's an area where we don't necessarily see so it's fruitful for imagination and even we were talking about the chronological writings earlier and a lot of these are attempting to fill in

a lot of gaps and again that oral culture there's a lot of stories being told and these writings bring together different ways of understanding how angels and agents of the double and got agents are interacting with human history. a lot of potential for literature. >> host: another book we wanted to talk about was catherine and fiction book.was catherine and what is this? >> guest: good question. porter, in her title, pale horse, pale rider is trying to revelation chapter six verse eight where it says i looked and behold a pale horse and his name that sat on him was death and they were given the power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and play and this is a reference of great

destruction. as she is pulling in this title to give an expression to you that the catastrophes after world war i with the problems of influenza and pandemics that as they look around they noticed this devastation so for her she was able to refer to revelation 61st eight and when you refer to a title like that some people canor say is she thinking that literally or is she using that as a symbol and that is the beauty of this intertextuality as each reader brings their own interest and background to their own understanding of the bible and this loads in oftentimes with interactive dimension to how readers are picking up even on her title. >> host: you have a display with

isaac newton's and what is that? >> guest: good question. in our silence billion we have three statues with a little bit of description of the importance of each person but isaac newton is arguably one of the most significant scientists of his generation and some would argue of all time. for him it was a volume or he wanted to express some of his key ideas that turn into modern physics through gravity and a number of elements involved with it. for him he saw this volume as an opportunity to demonstrate how his view of god's order that he read about in the bible was consistent with the signs he was seeing. this book has been very important through science

discussion ever since. >> host: galileo and here's a quote from galileo the astronomer. the bible tells us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go. >> guest: galileo, of course, was caught up in a dispute with the catholic church. >> host: you wouldn't necessarily think of him as someone who is colored in the bible. >> guest: yeah, and in this case i don't think they necessarily meant to be a scholar in the bible as much as they were well-versed in the bible because i was such a part of their culture. in our day maybe the bible is less part of the culture but it was not the same as parents they had. for him, arguably, much of this trial is based on politics but one of and how his ideas were potentially challenging to the larger church structure that he was a part of.

we talk about the america and our separation of church and state and that's a time when the church together and that's the ruling body but for galileo part of his back was, you know, the bible may teach us about religion but does that mean that it needs to be the source of authority on science and that's a deeply debatable and interesting question discussed everer since. >> host: jeannie in virginia. >> caller: hello. i have a question. do you believe in the rapture of the church before the antichrist comes? i do not. >> guest: thank you for the question. this is another topic that is

greatly debated among different groups. one of the reasons and tiny back to ourur goal here one of the reasons the bible is so ripe for expressions in literature is the bible is not necessarily always clear of exactly what it is expressing. sometimes it's different writers that have just like modern-day writers you have different points of emphasis in different ways of expressing things and certainly many would agree that the bible disagrees with itself. we read about thisis from the writings that are attributed to paul when it comes to the rapture and some point to the book of revelation but this is an area where there's differentw expressions and it will be debated as long as time goes on. for myself it's not an area that i have a lot of personal commitment to as much as interest in the discussion.

>> host: this text from deb says the bible is majestically vague like the constitution, both written by men and inspired by the divine and interpreted and understood by the same number of people whether cracked it open and bother to read even one sentence. any comment? >> guest: i think she is eloquent. [laughter] you know, the constitution is a reality that is important for our nation that we continue toe discuss. we have to sometimes have the supreme court make judgments on how is it that we are applying that now. very similar to this jewish bible and the christian bible, i mean, it's astonishing. part of the amazing reality is that you have a bookk that is written a long time ago and its continuity throughout history interacting in different ways in

their own setting just like we have to interpret the constitution now into our own internal disputes and american community. that is exactly what has happened with the bible with people saying how did this influence our own sense of identity and what we should do and how does the shape ethics andtu morals and so i think the constitution is a very good comparison of the challenge of interpretation within additional communities as time goes on. >> host: were talking literature in the bible today on the tv and danny is calling from [inaudible] >> caller: hello. great show. fascinating museum that i will try to get to one day. my question is more of a general question for seth. in starting this museum did you find challenges in managing what would be included in the museum

and what would not be included in the museum and maybe more to the specific level i have a number of friends were jehovah witnesses and they have a slightly different translation of the new testament probably inspired by god and others have influenced alan white or the justice and with those reconciled in the museum's presentation and again this managing bias from a general perspective must've been tough. >> guest: danny, managing bias is always difficult and with the bible it's extremely difficult because again, as you look at the bible great geographic spread and great historic continuity of use but there's also discontinuity of you be

with different people so each of these people will have different bias butry what we try to do iso be more descriptive rather than prescriptive so rather than building a message based on one person's bias to describe how people have had different approaches to the bible throughout all kinds of places and times and that is what were dedicated to. the challenge with bias is to be aware of it and to i r recognizt and to acknowledge it and try to control it so when it comes to hethe jehovah witnesses we try o do is stay within the limits of what our themes were on the history of the bible on the spread of this jewish and christian bible brought the world at different times. we do have a new world translation that we talk about the history of that and we put this in the context of this is an expansion of this traditional book we call the bible and it's

simplistic to say the bible but we do try to put the jehovah witness version into that stream of history. >> host: do you have a team of biblical or literature consultants to help put this display together? >> guest: great question. we do. each of these we haveve well ovr 60 different scholars that we involved in different places and again what i didn't tell danny was the key was balance. if you will have a balance or museum that is dedicated to the bible that is used by the different peoples it's very important to have catholic scholars and have easternca christian scholars that to have

those that are more critical and those that are concessional. this is the experience of the bible among different communities as well as jewish scholars. you have the diversity of people involved but then you have diversity of topics. on this for we have 23 pavilions and we have three different scholars that particularly help with this pavilion in literature that while i know veryyic little they knew a lot and helped shape it. we have a totally different group for began in a burn that we do for government and human rights and the we do for human rights. to do that well it took about 60 and oftentimes up to 100 to have involvement constantly. >> host: you mentioned the bible and government exhibit and we want to tie that into literature and begin with a quote from another president. up on the wall here president truman. the fundamental basis of this nation's law was given to moses on the mount. the fundamental basis of our bill of rights comes from the teachings that we get from exodus and st. matthew and from

isaiah and st. paul. >> guest: clearly, a lot of leaders whether in the judicial system or political system have drawn on the bible. sometimes they're looking to the bible as an inspiration for why they would say what they would say in other times they will be appealing to the bible to justify the positions they already had. because the bible has been a cultural heavyweight with authority and authority in the minds of the populace leaders will oftentimes try to use it, exploit it or whatever it may be to defend their position. again, an important idea to realize the bible is used for liberation as well as oppression. >> host: the book we want to talk about is lewis lowry's, number the stars from 1989.

what is the topic of the book and the tie into the bible? >> guest: the topic of the book is taking place during world war ii and they are discussing how the danes were helping thousands of jews escape sweden. the title, number the stars, comes from psalms whichic says e tells the numbers of the stars and call them by their names. this is sort of an entendre with what is referred to god knowing of the stars and the association with the star of david and in later times after but at the nosame time god knowing the stas and calling them by name so there's this dual meaning there that i think lowry was able to appeal to that would have special significance for jews and the writings of the fall. later on it goes into this great excitement and theme off rescue.

certainly during world war ii there is the struggle of how can the god care but have the suffering and where this will go. the jews will be wrestling to how the writings are during that time and how we keep our hope. >> host: is steven southfield, michigan. hello, steve. >> caller: how are you doing c today? quick question. three questions. i have seen the video and i was wondering can you provide commentary on the crown and the commentator was saying something regarding the crown as though england had copyright to the bible and secondly was the first english bible -- didn't have the apocrypha? nyand have you performed any exegesis on the serpent seed as

literature, not regarding religion with the different denominations but a literary perspective the serpent seed in genoa genesis three verse 16? >> host: a couple of colors early on asked about the apocrypha and if you could we identify it again and why people are interested in it. >> guest: yet, the apocrypha is a really valuable topic and they're looking for more meaningful ways to describe because these books that are additional set that are included in the bible that the catholic church reads that christians read and sometimes these books are couple additional ones that vary a little bit between people

reading the bible today and protestants do not read what they would call the old testament apocrypha is the sacred writings and jews as well do not include but some of the christians pick up on some of the books included in the first translation when the hebrew bible in the greek language whichd we call the septuagint which is complex document. that apocrypha has been included even among protestants in some translations and not others. we asked whether it was included in the first translation and i'm not sure that the first printing of it did included here in

america but it did include in very common translations like the standard version and the revised standard version before that so you do even have in america and certainly england before that a lot of people reading the apocrypha as part of so clearly a lot of history who included it and who didn't and that hopefully here the museum we can fill out that story. >> host: he asked about copyright in the serpent seed as well. >> guest: good. last question was about serpent seed. there's a number of different interpretations of what the significancef of the punishment on the serpent or that the seed of the woman will continue on and i'm not aware and i'm not a

literature professional myself but i believe you would have to pick up on that and that concept but unfortunately i don't know which one it is. >> host: steven in brooklyn, new york. what is your question or comment? >> caller: thank you for taking my call. original sin is summarized to be treason against god and we saw jesus christ executed as part of that. it's clear to me that swe the be has been a legal document blood how do you bridge or expose that fact in your museum? >> bible is a legal document. >> guest: yeah, i think he talked about the condemning human government. i believe it is first samuelcu u have samuel come in the people are demanding a king and samuel

the prophet challenges that and god acknowledges the people are demanding a king and according to the bible god knowledges you want a king but that's not part of the plan and it's fascinating that people look to the bible in different places as a clear view of the way we should live life in many ways including government. we make it into it shortly but we talk about arguments that were made for why some why nations should have a monarchy and that other people appeal to the bible to resist government and other people refer to the government more to argue democracy so i think that people have found in the bible different arguments that they

have appeal to different times and because of that it's difficult to say that the bible has one position that everyone should follow or when they had made that argument it hasn't stuck for very long. >> host: we have not had this question i expected it earlier but what is your answer to the fiction, nonfiction aspect of bthe bible. >> guest: even in recent decades the question of the bible of literature in a very large topic is the bible fiction is nonfiction and how do we read it as literature and you know, i think that it has been the bible has served as a huge paradigm for reading it is a little document and seen it referred to as little history that will look forward to the future for little history and prediction and at

the same time certainly in the our critical age looking at the bible as evaluating and comparing it with our understanding of history or science and we had a big increase in the universities to look at the bible. critical lens as fiction. i think it is hard to put one down and the other one up in the sense that they have both formed a rich heritage of how people understand the bible. here at the museum were trying to do is help people see both sides and understand that when you look at the bible's letter impact both of those end up becoming an important part of the discussion. as far as what values in the

bible brings us to people. >> host: another quote you have here at the museum and this is from the narrative of frederick douglass. i am left of the hottest hell of an ending slavery. oh god, slightly. deliver me. let me be free. is there any god and why am i a slave? >> guest: frederick atlas was a powerful orator and certainly you look at him to return his writings it is stirring. it really is. part of what is challenging is he stands up with a great social critique. ... f s well as liberty. i mean, he's living in a society where in the south oftentimes, you know, many of these folks are preachers that are saying

that god has ordained, you know, slavery and appealing to sections of the bible like with >> this curse on him and saying that god has cursor people as they apply to their next contacts it's the white southerners who are benefiting from the persecution frenetic for douglas it's an important critique is that really the heart of what they're trying to argue. what about the ideas of justice for all people. so there calling for justice and mercy i was the white culture to

get them to be representatives of what the bible is teaching. is a powerful example of how people at different times of the same time same place are using the bible for different purposes. makes you sit back and say what i really think. we found that our goal is to invite all people to engage with the bible and thinking about like what you do with this. in that sense douglas is a great example of trying to think through what is the bible really saying of the time like this when my people are being persecuted. >> let's hear from angelo. >> caller: good afternoon. i appreciate the chance to see

about this in washington. my question goes to understanding about the bible. i wonder if your museum goes into the political aspects in the sense of why they were written. it's fairly clear it's a political track but my focus is on the old testament. this museum go into the historical and political part of the old testament of a document to pull the juice together after they came back to moralize from the disasters when they left babylon. it was more like 600 bc. so this might get to your fiction or nonfiction.

but the propaganda for different reasons it might explain the nonfiction fiction aspects. >> guest: is a good question. the truth is according to the evidence we have a lot of gaps in the record. a lot of things we can't know. a lot of ideas we can discuss. the writings themselves will talk as if it's history. until we get to the dead sea scrolls we don't find those writings or specific evidence. so we have to extrapolate back about what can we know and why can't we know. it's complicated. different people have different ideas. jews will take early dating of the hebrew bible and late dating.

you can have the same for the protestants both of the new testament of the old testament itself, very complicated topic. what's important is the museum can be a place for these things are discussed. but you need open minds by all parties. to hear the arguments as far as what's being presented from an early history or late history being written down. there's lot insights to thinking through how did an exile shaped the mind of these people. how to coming back influence their desire to fold these writings together and clicked them into a book? the book will later be expanded on the christians will be motivated to send that out to different regions of the world as it goes into north africa it will take on different

influences from philosophical elements. the global culture is rich. people are very different. there truly is no simple answer. as a museum we hope to get people an introduction into that. these are topics people spend many years discussing and learning. people still disagree about it. >> host: at the bible museum their bibles from presidents cleveland, truman, eisenhower, george w. bush and president trumps in our girl bible.

here's a quote from president jimmy carter on the wall. each of us must rededicate ourselves to serving the, good, our individual fates are linked, futures intertwined. if we act in the knowledge and spirit together we can move mountains. i want to make sure we bring up two other books in two very famous american authors. my angelo and faulkner. what are the biblical ties to those books? >> guest: my angelo was deeply steeped to the bible. a great source of information and guidance. a very important part of who she is. we have a large interactive feature or we allow some comparisons and i know why the caged bird sings. we show a connection to one of her quotes where she talks about

she was exploring hope in the sense of wholeness. expressiveness through the idea of the kingdom come. this is an allusion to jesus prayer that the gospel attribute to jesus to teach the disciples how to pray. the kingdom come, they will be done. she also discusses how deuteronomy was her favorite book in her efforts to memorize it. when you have a book that's significant to you that's what we see, not. >> host: what you think about william faulkner? and what is absalom.

>> you picked up in this literature section many different volumes that use the bible expressions in the title. so absalom is a second quote. were david is saying and he say my son my son. you have this great turmoil and struggle and what your son is actually trying to do what they're doing to take over the nation. with the conflict between a father and the son of this

larger time when it's complicated and there's deception and twisted ethics and how do you get out of it make sense of it. >> and unfortunately we are out of time. you are the director of museum content at the museum of the bible in washington, d.c. he has been our guest for the past hour and half. >> friday night book to be the acceptance in science and technology. microsoft president discusses artificial intelligence in his book melissa schilling highlights the lives and traits of several innovators including albert einstein and benjamin franklin.

jerry reports on the use of metrics in government and education in the tierney of metrics. >> "washington journal", live every day with news and policy issues that impact too. coming up on friday morning, former aclu president discusses her book which examines the line between hate speech and free speech. they talk about the critique of the progressive movement. join us at 9:00 a.m. eastern on high school government teacher review sample questions for the advanced placement of the politics exam.

>> will have live coverage of a congressional briefing on infrastructure from the national history center at 11:00 a.m. eastern on c-span. on c-span two discuss the about the korean peninsula. live coverage at 915 eastern time. then a look at british foreign policy. monday, on landmark cases i-uppercase-letter capital punishment greg versus georgia. in 1976 troy greg, convicted of robbery and challenge his death case. the supreme court ruled against him but establish stricter guidelines for states wishing to impose the death penalty. our guest is carol, one of the nation's top capital punishment legal scholars and a professor. she's argued against the death

penalty in a number of cases. in kent, the legal director of the criminal justice legal foundation advocating in favor capital punishment and more swift moving criminal justice system. watch on monday at nine eastern on c-span. join the conversation. # is landmark cases. follow us on c-span. we have resources on our website for background. in the landmark cases podcast and see spend at work. >> next, discussion on the 20th anniversary of the book publisher, public affairs. featuring peter and authors veon