amen. >> ladies and gentlemen, please remain in your seats until the president has departed the east room. ♪ >> we take you live now to a forum in washington just got underway on the situation in venezuela after the recent election and on your screen is juan cruz, the national security council senior director of western hemisphere affairs, one of the speakers this morning, the u.s. and many other nations denounced last sunday's elections results in venezuela with the u.s. exspelling the country's top diplomate this past wednesday. live coverage here on c-span2. >> one choreographed so finely. the ship is taking water and it's listing to one side and if i would have to say something as we look back on this, when

venezuela restores its democracy, history will prove that this was probably a lost opportunity for maduro. an opportunity for him to heed the pleas of the opposition, of the international community and even of the catholic church for him to postpone these elections and do it under conditions that would be respected by all. so, what's next and what have we done about this? you know that last week, friday, we -- the treasury department designated cabello and his network, one thought, he's one of several people we have in the hopper. these are senior folk who deserve to receive sanctioning for their corrupt practices and we sandwiched the election with the president signing an additional order, that if you

heard or watched maduro's reaction to it, you can tell that it stunned him deeply. we've now sanctioned 70 individuals and had 40 executive orders under this president, and this is done primarily to punish those pillaging venezuela's public coffers, but also remind you that sanctions are not just about punishing. there's a principal aspect of sanctions that often don't get the proper coverage, which is they're intended to change behavior. they're intend today change behavior of those being sanctioned so they can try to find a way out in cooperation and correcting their behavior. and it's also to be a dissuavie factor. you won't be sanctioned in per perpetuity, and it's not just a punitive measure or action, but it is to punish.

and what i say is that it's to punish those who refuse to feed their own people. and so, in this aspect, i probably, you know, i'm tempted to compare them to a regime, and not the aspect of it of the genocide, avoid hyperbole, but using food as a political manipulation, disgusting. these are crimes against humanity, i don't know what is, and the world is going to hold them accountable for it. the future lies primarily in the hands of the venezuelans, let's be clear about that, but the u.s. and the world will accompany them. they need to do more and every citizen needs to do more. our options are limitless. i know that people, you know, sometimes think that we have sort of played out everything that we could have done until

now, it's simply not true. we will continue to pressure, to restore democracy in venezuela. we will try ways to get food aid to that country, despite the repeated resistance by the regime to accept that they're in need of food, and to reject all the offers that have been made for humanitarian aid and food aid by a host of countries. and we will honor those who understand that the future of venezuela will be shaped by those who respect constitutional obligations. now, it's not the first time that in an event, i cite articles from the bol varian constitution, a constitution written under chavez himself, that maduro is laboring to undo, but that's the constitution that exists today and article 350 which says that

people of venezuela true to the republican tradition and the struggle for independence, peace and freedom, shall disown any regime, legislation, or authority that violates democratic values, principles and authorities, or encroaches upon human rights. shorthand on the significant parts of that sentence. the people of venezuela shall disown any regime that violates democratic values and human rights. changing themes here. we're coming up in a short two weeks on the organization of american states general assembly, an annual event. and this is an opportunity to see who sides with democracy, humanity and decency. and what country decides to side with cheating, lying, and

starving a venezuela's own people. we will be watching and we will take note. and lastly, as a reminder, we will work with those, any country who is interested in restoring democracy in venezuela and bringing peace there. >> thank you very much, and i know you have to go and i appreciate very much the fact that you've been able to fit us in, but maybe i can sneak a quick question in here before you have to take off. when she was at our annual conference just a couple of weeks ago, u.s. ambassador to the united nations, nikki haley, also spoke very elegantly and eloquently about venezuela and she also talked about some of these themes that's impressive, the amount of fire power the senior level, you know, from a political perspective, that the administration is giving toward this very complicated issue. you alluded to additional steps that could be taken without trying to ask you to say specifically what those would be. i wonder, although if you want

to or certainly are willing to, but to the extent there's anything further, you could talk about perhaps timelines or things that you'd be looking for from within venezuela that might be triggers of those additional steps, that would be very helpful. >> we're endeavoring, of course, everyone's going to gravitate immediately to the options of sanctions and i'd be lying if i told you that it wasn't a primary interest. we want that with fidelity and segment that in a careful way. if we went and sanctioned everybody who deserved to be sanctioned in venezuela, it would lose a lot of its impact and i father it would have a numbing effect, rather than a powerful effect. we will continue to sanction those who need to be sanctioned at the highest level and choosing, instead of using that money to buy food to line their pockets and to enrichen the cronies. so i won't betray anything that you wouldn't have expected,

individual and sectoral sanctions. sectoral have to do with economy, fans and with that terminology, oil sanctions mean for us, probably, 36 kinds of sanctions. we are very precise. we want to be very careful and one of the things we always look at, we debate is what kind of effect this could possibly have on the venezuelan people. you know, make no mistake about it, it's the venezuelan regime that's starving them. we've even offered food aid, it's not us, but we don't want to contribute to that so, but we haven't taken anything off the table. the president is very clear, we will leave all options open. what would we do next? we work in concert with all the nations who are like-minded on this and of that, i'm very proud. we're in lock step with all the

leader group countries and the eu, and we appreciate canada's leadership on that, brings added credibility for those who would like to criticize the united states. and what i would say on this is, we will be as creative as we have to be. we want to make the world smaller, so if you're stealing money, we want to make sure it's harder for you to travel somewhere to spend it. we want to make sure it's harder for you to have access to it, for your family members to have access, for you to enjoy the results of your theft and we're working with other countries to make that world smaller and smaller for the venezuelan regime and those who prop up maduro. >> well, thank you. obviously, we all have many additional questions we'd love to pitch your direction, but we're mindful of your time and there are other things going on. thank you, ladies and gentlemen, would you join me once again in thanking him. [applaus

[applause] >> and we're going to continue now with the panel discussion and we have a terrific group as i mentioned and you know, jennifer, ambassador lawton gave a perfect segue as far as candidates on these issues. i'm going to ask the ambassador to speak to these topics with one quick acknowledgment in your government leadership not just the oas and lima group, but also in the g7 context as a host and for those who haven't seen the recent statements from the g7 leaders, i call it to your attention, it's fabulous. it's focused on venezuela and this truly internationalizes the topic. it's not an issue of lat ten -- latin america, quote, unquote,

it's global democracy and it's the highest level at g7. jennifer, thank you to you and your leadership there. >> thank you very much, eric. it's a pleasure to be here today and canada is extremely pleased to talk with this group how we see the unfolding crisis in venezuela and you just said what i'm going to say so i might as well back it up, but you said it well. but essentially, we consider this a problem that's happening in the americas, but of global proportion and global significance and for tareen we've taken it, in addition to the work going on multilateral to others as well. what our objective is in the americas bilaterally and multilaterally are the same thing, the years we've been with the oas to support human rights. oas has done a relatively good job of that in the americas. they've developed the strongest document that globally exists

in the inter-american charter. the problem is the failure to implement. how do we give it teeth? how do we make it matter? something that's important to keep in mind, what we're looking for is what venezuelans are looking for themselves, a strong document. venezuelans have a democratic tradition and constitution and they want a democratic future and it's important to understand that it's going to come from the outside. the reason it's been removed, political manipulations that globally has been denounced as false. canada and america are not alone in coming to that conclusion. political prisoners, withholding engagement by the opposition, a hijacked electric commission. and we know why this has been declared false. what do we do? how do we bring international

pressure on the venezuelan government? the difficulty within the oas it's a concensus-based organization and i think the body has adhered strictly to that. if one country disagrees, then we must all be wrong. it's interesting, i don't know a single event, not even a cocktail party is like that. generally different opinions are brought forward and a broad agreement is developed. the only thing that concensus or habit i should say has encouraged is we end up doing what we're willing to do as opposed to what we should do. when you think about the history of the organization that produced the documents, that produced the inter-american democratic charter it's surprising to find ourselves up against the wall at this point when we can clearly read the words on the paper and what should happen next. how do we uphold our shared principles. we remind around the table what the principles are but how do

we make them happen? well, when we tried in the context of the oas, we tried it in the general assembly there and the ministerial meeting. what we learned is some member states are still not willing to take a look at the situation and see it for what it is and take the steps that they need to take. so, we decided if if we cannot bring the concensus model in and we'd move outside and do something else. the lehman group was developed. the idea was it would be a more nimble body to work with a coalition of countries to bring international pressure on the situation and that's been quite effective. the members of the lehman group don't exist uniquely in the americas. they're members of other bodies of the g20, g7 and as eric said we released a strong statement in the g7 under the canadian presidency and we've managed within that context, well, in the last meeting of the lehman

group we brought in finance min seniors. so this is a political conversation, but we're digging deeper. sanctions can be applied bilaterally and canada has done that and they're targeted not meant to be sanctioned on the people of venezuela, but those who are robbing venezuela and those who need to be stopped. so, we have applied those sanctions, but that's not the only financial tool that countries have at their disposal and the more we collaborate and the more impact we can have. i'm talking about a range of things and the task force. and all have financial intelligence units as well and talk with private sectors and ask those that are involved in national transactions nationally to be more careful who they engage with, aware of the risks they're running, of corruption. we can take note of the existing bodies in venezuela and the transaction of the government of venezuela seeks to pursue that do not have the approval of that body should

not be considered sound. so in addition to sanctions applied by governments, we can engage international financial institutions and the private sector and aware of the situation they're putting themselves into and that puts additional pressure on the government of venezuela as well. that's a step that the lehman group took recently. at the summit of americas that happened in peru, there was a strong calling for the countries of the americas to come together and call the government of venezuela to account, know the to proceed with elections that were not democratic, it's not the election, but the process. regardless of the result was going to be, canada's concern was there was absolutely no way that organized the way it was, the election was going to deliver a democratic result and it didn't. so the statement that leaders delivered, it was a strong one, also called for better elections, release of political prisoners, opening of humanitarian assistance and i

agree with juan as well, it's not the sanctions that is starving venezuelans, it's their own government. the sanctions are intended to change that and one of the goals is to require the government of venezuela to open a humanitarian level. and the next statement for the lehman group called for meetings that focus on the impact of the deteriorating situation. the refugee crisis and situation and it must be emphasized what else is happening in the context of this cries cities is a public health tragedy. diseases we thought were eradicated are now moving in populations and we're seeing infectious diseases spread. and we now have a political crisis that's undermining that work. a high level meeting that will look at those impacts. one that will look and seek to bring to bear international tools to deal with the migration crisis as well. and then the next thing coming up is the oas general assembly.

cancun taught us a lot of lessons. so you learn, and you try again. our goal remains the same, and that is the restoration of democratic order in venezuela. we can use the oas to help do that, but we need to be courageous and take a hard look at the concensus model. create a core of country willing to take a brave step, willing to implement the tools and principles that we've created ourselves and done such good work in the americas and take it forward and do the right thing. that means we need to consider the suspension of venezuela in the context of the oas general assembly. whether or not we do that or call for the consideration of that article is something that countries will decide together. but we need to be brave enough to look at that document and to apply it for the purpose for which it was intended. that comes up very soon and we're working with countries with like mindedness and lehman

group and expanding that circle as well. in canada's mind a multilateral organization of the oas of which we are members, have to represent the principles of democracy and human rights and has to demonstrate to do its job or we have to ask ourselves what's the purpose. and those are hard questions, but i think we all have to be prepared. if we're not going to stand up and do the right thing, why are we there at all? >> powerful ending comment and thank you for your personal leadership and leadership of your government on these issues, it's meaningful and noticed and very, very much appreciated. we thank you for that and your powerful comments. we're going to shift from a diplomatic r grounds, and we're going to look at following him-twitter, and you should follow all of us on twitter, but has been very-- well, he's been showing in real-time some of the crisis and tragedy that's been going

on and it is a tragedy and it is a crisis. danny, give us a sense from your perspective what's happening and maybe some things that can be done to help ameliorate it or to lessen the crisis. >> yeah, thanks, eric, to you and the council for putting the events. thank you, ambassador for being here and for your remarks. well, yeah, i mean, i spend a few days in the city bordering venezuela, bordering a state in venezuela, one of the most important crossings that there are right now, where it's estimated that 30 to 35,000 people are crossing every day from venezuela to colombia. a lot of them are crossing for the day to -- i saw mainly two kind of people there, roughly speaking, the ones that were crossing for the day or for the week or for a few days, either to work or either just to find some medicines, or both at the

same time. i saw mothers with their babies going to vaccinate their kids because there are novac seens in venezuela. and saw them getting insulin. the husband was going to die because they had no insulin. and a woman who had a doctorate and cleaning the bathroom at the gas station and she was fortunate to work there, and she would take more than her actual job in caracas. it was terrifying for somebody like me, i spend most of my day looking at data on the computer and going there to the ground, it was terrifying. and i don't think i just met the five people with the worst story. every person there had a terrible story. and i think the government colombian government is doing an effort to help these people and the catholic church.

they have public dining rooms where they feed thousands of people every month, but thing there are a few issues that we should take into account. first, the-- there are some limitations to what the colombian government can do, first of all, because these can countries are not used to receiving migrants. ironically, it was venezuela, the country that received -- was the receiving country in the continent and now things have turned around. and some of these countries don't have the infrastructures, they don't have the legislation to deal with the massive flow of people. very few countries have, but i think that latin america in particular are lacking in that sense. and, this costs money. this is a lot of resources that should be put in place to help these people. a lot of these people are not-- they're not economic migrants, they're refugees and i'm saying this in particular because

that's one of the aspects that's been miss in this discussion. i think that the governments of the region have been wary of calling these a refugee crisis. i think that the legal arguments to call them refugees are there. the original refugee comes from 1951, it was basically, mostly based on world war ii. so, it defines people who are more or less, i'm speaking broadly, fleeing from war, but interestingly enough, latin america, put together a program for referee which speaks of recognizing refugees and fleeing from the country because of among other things, massive violation of human rights, disruption of public order. and if you spend two to three minutes in venezuela, you would have that, that's definitely the case. they are to call these people refugees. because if you don't call them

refugees, it means that the legal track for them to work and remain in the country is something that you have to come up with. colombia has done some pee these are limited to people who actually have a passport, which is not the case for many, many venezuelans, including me. i don't have a passport for a year, so, i guess people who have never traveled who are coming from very low background states. even if they wanted a passport, there's no money to have it. and so, the legal aspect. and also the financial aspect is important. i think that the colombians are making a big effort. so far they're making a big effort in trying to identify the number of people. we don't know how many people are in colombia. 750,000 the official numbers, unofficial sources on the ground talk about more than a

million people. and they are, as we speak, doing a census to try to identify all of these migrants on the regular status and that should end within a month so we should have more numbers there. of course, there are a lot of people mo will-- who will be scared to register. and said that's not a issue. it's important to note those numbers. once we know the number, i think that we can have a sense of how many resources there are going to be needed and we're talking about a lot of money. the u.s. has been very generous and other countries, too, in providing some aid, but it's very much welcome, but much more is going to be needed. just to give you an idea, if you say the cost of-- given the protection for a refugee for a refugee in

turkey, germany, and jordan and lebanon, who are the main countries receiving refugees, and you make a small calculation and put it in purchasing power of colombia and latin america, you're talking 3500 dollars per refugee per year. so, if-- i think a conservative estimate could be that you will be seeing perhaps half a million venezuelans fleeing the country. most of them as refugees in the first year. we're talking already $1.5 billion to provide very basic protection, such as housing, basic food. >> that's on an annual basis? >> that's on an annual basis. and just to give you a sense why we should think of these people as refugees and why t, lt me put up--

this morning, let me give you a sense why it's the right way to think because i want to share you some numbers of the venezuel venezuelan humanitarian country. venezuela, if you look at almost any statistic, in terms of social, of humanitarian statistics or economics, there are-- for instance, the latest number over 87% of households in venezuela can be living in poverty, including 61.2% who are living in extreme poverty. and that's up from 48% and 23% respectively that in 2014. so in the last three years, these number are-- there are strong cases of

malnourishment. in 2017 about 60% of the population lost an average over 20 pounds. the president jokingly and i think in a very pathetic and disrespectful way called that the maduro diet. 80% of households which are over 2.4 million venezuelans suffer from food insecurity. that should be 24 million venezuelans, i'm sorry. according to official numbers from 2015, the death rate of of month old babies, 20 out of 1,000. puts venezuela next to pakistan in terms of mortality, and to the highest mortality in the world. and between 2015 and 2016, 80% in the country are nowhere to be found. over 60% of equipment to perform dialysis in the country are failing or broken, so people are dying from renal

disease because they can't have dialysis treatment. and for malaria and other diseases, which venezuela was declared free of in the 1960's, and free of malaria in the '60s, today we have about 400,000 cases. still, the major cost to venezuela is violence. they said that 130,000 venezuelans have been violently murdered in those years. and this is part of the reason that we see people fleeing. even though we're not of the numbers, we have some figures that are conservative, but scary, between 2015 and 2017 the number of venezuelan from south america, 90,000 to 900,000 in only two years, and as i said before colombia said they host about 750,000.

if you look at the figures, venezuela is not in crime, it's not in a war, but it's in a state of war. and that's why it's really important to understand that these are a refugee crisis and this seniors around the u.n. or any other organizations to provide the aid that venezuelans need. it's a situation the country is going to keep getting worse. there's no reason, and i think what they can do besides continuing with the pressure in the regime and to help these people who are fleeing for their lives. >> well, you can't fix a problem until you recognize the magnitude of the problem. although those are depressing statistics nonetheless. thank you for bringing them to us, because i suspect many of us have been vaguely aware of the magnitude of the crisis, but when you put it in those terms, this hits home. these are people and their lives have been disrupted if not destroyed.

thank you, danny. hector, we'll bring you into the conversation. hector is a true expert on democracy across latin america, has followed and focused on these issues for many years. hector, we've seen some interesting developments across latin america and that's impacting venezuela. we've had elections, governments that might have been traditionally reluctant to say or do much about a sister republic has all of a sudden become much more interesting in addressing that's issues with countries like canada and united states and others, and we have the g20 in your home country of argentina. i wonder if you have thoughts about those issues that you can bring to the table and with that, we'll turn it over to you. >> thank you, eric. thank you for inviting me and nice to be here always. let me try to put that together with a couple of things that i had about the future that i had prepared largely come out of my sunday column and just a few

days ago. as juan was saying, the region has sort of been moving in the right next, not only because of elections, but because of changes in the persuasion of different governments. it's not a question of whether left wing or right wing governments have won elections, but whether the region is coming together. although, it's not doing it as fast as we would like it to happen, right? timid, hesitant still, and for that, i one of the things i said on sunday was that the latin american countries, it's time for latin american countries to sanction just the way the u.s. did and the european union, switzerland which is not a member of the european union and yet switzerland sanctioned government officials.

and it's time for the latin americans to do it as panama did it. it's not impossible. they know the assets. in the argentine media way back, cabellos' residence was in the papers. one of the most exclusive country clubs in venezuela. and so, that's one thing. i also think that the ambassadors should not pull the people out of venezuela because technically to not recognize the election entails to not recognize the government form, as a result of that election which technically means to pull o out. and i don't think that's a good idea. if nothing else, the ambassadors, the european ambassadors, latin american ambassadors are the witnesses of what's going on there.

if they leave, there are no witnesses left. and more, the ambassadors should be more engaged, not less. it surprises me that the group, jennifer, has not sent ambassadors when this crisis started, you know, just last week and it's been already ten days and we have no news of prisoners there. >> this is a prison where they're holding-- >> these are the prisoners, they had the riots last week. this is, you know, it's a situation that the relatives are there, nobody knows what happened. nobody knows if they're alive or dead, and he think in the community that is there has an obligation to be part of this and, you know, demanding information at the very least on the condition, and other well-known political prisoners. so, in respect for this current

juncture and especially for the latin americans is to deal with the elephant in the bazaar, the elephant in the room, if you want, and we haven't said-- we haven't pronounced the word cuba here yet. and as long as 20,000 and more des estimations on 50,000 of advisors remaining in venezuela, it's going to be very difficult to produce the political situation that we all hope for. the cuban ministry officers are there to give them a way, to point fingers to those that are later arrested or just like happened two days ago, one of the services. and it's time for the cubans to pull outten a the international

community has a role to play there. cuba cannot have-- is literally an occupation army. and it will not go anywhere as long as that continues. and well, cuba wants to trade. cuba wants investment. cuba wants integration, all right. there is a political negotiation there pending that needs to be said. the other thing that i think is extremely important now, i had a conversation with a couple of decision leaders. it is time for the government in exile to be created and europe had a-- during the war, during world war ii, european countries. nine european countries have had under occupation, and by a

series of criminal organizations as we described at this table. the supreme court in exile and meeting, and there needs to be an executive branch as well in exile, which would be the natural interlockitor for government and they're pretty much in every country, colombia, argentina, u.s. and canada of course, and europe, of course, in italy and in france, obviously. well, that would be a way to also perhaps have an ambassador in exile. different for the governments to deal with and you know, and get that information and more

information and help more. and finally, we need to start thinking the entire situation has been described today and describing every piece of news that you can find around, the infant morality syria, the worse humanitarian crisis in the americas, and the worse crisis we've had in the history. the definition is extremely important as danny was saying, but we have dealt with the internals in the past in the case of colombia, and refugees during the colombia conflict. it's time to perhaps explore the possibility of sending food on different parts, the largest

refugees, and start with the u.n. technical term is humanitarian arrangement operation, and indeed, that is what a humanitarian intervention is. and for internal affairs at the to work out the diplomatic stepsnd that help ne already expedited and the community internationally has to react. upon what it is, it will continue to worsen for as long as the maduro regime is in office, the worst refugee crisis we've ever had in the americas. on that note, thank you, eric. i'm going to stop and happy to continue. >> well, hector, thank you, as well, for your outstanding comments, whew, that's a lot to take in. three outstanding presentations to include juan's as well. jennifer, i'm going to ask you

to react to some of these comments, give you the first opportunity to do that, but hector also raised the rather provocative comment subtly in his comments and it's one that, you know, you talked about the elephants in the bazaar being cuba. i think there's another elephant in the bazaar or wherever we want the elephant to bement, but the issue of humanitarian assistance, if the government doesn't accept it, someone's got to push it in there and that implies some sort of use of force, does it not? jennifer, let me ask you that very provocative question because of the-- as a master of the international multilateral process, you can help us sort that one out. >> thanks for the use of force question. [laughter] >> you can answer if you wants. >> good morning, everyone, i'd like to represent the government of canada. the comments we made at the

outset were very quick, it's a complex situation, there's a lot to say, and as much as i said there was a lot left out, one of which is contributions that canada has made to the humanitarian considerations. you can't impose sanctions without taking into account the impact. 40 million through the u.n. system which hopefully can get things in. also, 2.2 million dollars that's being channelled more locally and our investors in the region are active and engaged and visiting some of the areas where the impact is being felt. particularly in brazil and colombia. you use the tools that you have at hand and i think it actually throws it into pretty sharp relief. the reason the aid is not getting in isn't because aid isn't offered, there's plenty of system out there and to address those in need in this crisis, but the government the

venezuela continues to refuse to allow this. inamerican institutions are trying to do something about the rise of diseases that have previously been eradicated and i think we need to continue to provide support, political, diplomatic, as well as moral support to those affected by this crisis, but at the end of the day, the responsibility is clear, it has to be squarely on the shoulders of those in venezuela and supporting the regime, either through their actions or lack of actions, are allowing this to continue. those who refuse to take action in areas like the oas. those who refuse to stand up and join in doing the right thing, when our own documents have said and committed us to doing, they, i think, must also ask themselves some tough questions what responsibility they bear. the government of canada has been active to try to put pressure on the regime and mitigate as a crisis.

we've done this globally and within the hemisphere, we're trying to create a global partnership. and the most important ones those in venezuela and those who will not stand up and do the right thing. i suppose that's my answer to that. >> fair enough. i think that's very well-saidment -- well-said. >> and hector, jen reacted to that, but you're also the can economist on the panel and we talked about sanctions. >> apologize for that. >> don't apologize, on the one hand. we talked a lot about sanctions and the obvious implications they're not just squeezing individuals for corrupt and anti-democratic act. we collectively are squeezing the macro economy so that the government finds it in its interest to return at least to some sort of democratic path.

is that the impact that's going to be had? in other words, as governments are taking these steps is that going to have-- how do i put this? will it have the intended impact or will there be other unintended consequences? how are you viewing this and what could be done further? >> i think that's a great question. the way i view it, two types of sanctions that have been so far thought about. the first ones are ones that are already in place and the u.s. always try to look at other countries, which are stopping venezuela from-- the venezuelan government from issuing more debt. and venezuela is highly embedded and selectively defaulted, actually i saw that they stopped even repaying some of their loans from the inter-american development, a

couple hundred million dollars. and back in about ten years ago, venezuela could have paid off all of its external debt with four to five months of exports. today they need over five years of exports to repay all of that, completely up sustainable. the reason we-- venezuela reached this is because they did exactly the opposite of what you would learn in your first economics, macro economics 101 glass in the very first 30 minutes, which is when you have an oil boom like the one venezuela had in during all of 2000's, you don't go and spend all of that money immediately and then borrow even more. you actually save some of that money because those are the seven years of the fat cow and when the seven years of thin cow comes, you have those savings to deal with the bad situation, that's what, for instance, with the boom from

when-- with the copper and minister was successful in doing that at the time and it's the right thing to do and with oil. venezuela and chavez, that's why it's important to talk about the previous government, not only maduro. they overspend the money and throw it into consumption while destroying the private sector with regulations and price controls and appropriations, and that's why the country was leading in imports. guess what, when the price are oil goes down and you have nothing more to borrow, you don't import. that's why people are dying of hunger and people have no medicine and the last resource printing money. even no some freight great economies think that it's there's no link, but that's the case. and the collapse in the economy, 30 to 40% dropping the

gdp of the country has nothing to do with the sanctions, to be honest. i think the sanctions-- these type of sanctions, sanctions that are stopping the government, more are important and should be there, but to me they're cosmetic. to be honest. the country even without the sanctions, they couldn't get more debt. and nobody in their right mind, i wouldn't, to would lend a penny to a government that is not going to pay you back. the worst sanctions they impose on themselves with the macroeconomic policies. so therefore, i think the sanctions are good to be there, but the story that they are really affecting the ability of the venezuelan government to manage the economy is fictitious. it's their mismanagement that got us here. so there are broader sanctions

and one says all options are on the table and there are broader sanctions to stop u.s. from buying oil from venezuela. by the way, the government of venezuela, they're so against the empire and they diplomates in the u.s. why don't they stop selling oil to the u.s. if they're so-- they don't want to do that. i think, but speaking more as an economist and in terms of the median long-term, i think that that would be a bad idea. not only because it will, of course, put more pressure on the venezuelan people as a whole, but because it could have a huge impact in the long run. even if we think there could be another government at some point. there's something very important with exporting with the u.s. buying oil, which is the refineries in the u.s., is they're being stubborn. if they're not used for

venezuelan oil they're going to be customized to refine other types of oil and that problem is getting back into the market is very costly. so it would effect any other government in the future. and one thing i believe is really important and i think there's much more room, are the personalized sanctions. as we spoke. they should not be only financial, i think it's really important to-- as juan was saying, i was really glad he said that, to the rally together, not only to stop the people from-- i mean, to free their assets from people who have access to the stolen money, but to have people in those countries-- there are venezuelan officials who visit mexico every couple of months and with their kids and hang around and use their money. why are they allowing those people to get into the countries. they should be declared persona

nongrata and from europe, america, asia, the caribbean, north america and everywhere else. and the last thought is that these personal sanctions they should continue. they should start also at targeting middle to high-ranking officials and their first degree family members and this is a thought i'm going to throw out there. i think it's important to think about a way in which this can be done progressively and even announced so that if people, middle ranking venezuelan government official or military officer knows that a month from now sanctions, targeted sanctions are going to jump on him or her, maybe they will have an incentive to really come against the government. so i think to play around with the idea this could be progressive could have a huge impact. >> love to explore that further. don't have time, but let's take a rain check on that and it's an interesting contribution

about what is causing the economic collapse, that's the comfort of place for the regime both in venezuela and outside of venezuela to blame the international community, particularly the united states for sanctions which have nothing to do with the collapse of the venezuelan economy. thank you for that and thank you for bringing in and putting the responsibility for the chavez government. hector, we're going to turn to you, we only have about five minutes. jennifer has been called to a special session of the oas and she has to depart. and let's see if we can squeeze this in. hector, five minutes or less. >> okay, first comment for danny about the policies. the only example you provide in latin america about theability of the policies is chile. because that's the only country that run the-- >> sure. >> and largely because it has a

set of institutions designed for that purpose. norway is in europe, but norway has the benefit of discovering this a hundred years before they discovered oil. and the resource course is there and whether it's oil or copper or for borrowing, the effect has always been the same, the cycle-- but anyway, a comment about sanctions is, absolutely, i mean, there's plenty to be done in the realm of personal sanctions, targeted sanctions. absolutely. the relatives of thugs and criminals in power are not guilty, but using mine -- money that comes out of corruption and robbery, well, that's a crime as well. they shouldn't go to jail, perhaps, but shouldn't be travelling europe and north america as frequently as they do. and one more thing about

personalized sanctions and there's nothing more personalized than this. on tuesday, the report at oas on the possible commissions of crimes against humanities coming out, i've been told it's a pretty substantial report with a few hundred pages and with the recommendation of independent panel of jurists, one is a canadian, another one is a costa rican. to be referred to the national criminal court, well, the international criminal court lays responsibility on individuals for the commission of crimes against humanity not on states. so you can't get any more personalized in terms of sanctions. and countries will have to -- the latin american countries, members of the oas or observers of the oas. a number of european countries will be potentially good

candidates to join this effort and refer the report to the international court. and that will be perhaps a good opportunity to good, you know, collective action strategy among the countries. so-- >> thank you. it's very clear and the venezuelan crisis is not your typical, if we can say that, latin american crisis, this is different, this is historic in a negative way and requires in some ways a historic and strong response from the international community in my view. i am delighted on behalf of the council of the americas with the depth and timeliness and the sophistication of this conference. it's been fabulous. i would love to extend it, we simply don't have the time. i hope all of you at some point would come back to the council. my only regret it takes a humanitarian tragedy to bring such wonderful speakers and

analysts to the table this morning. nonetheless, on behalf of the council and all of us assembled, would you please accept our thanks and congratulations, and offer to come back. ladies and gentlemen, please join me in thanking the panelis panelists. [applause]. [applause]: [inaudible conversations] ... [inaudible conversations]

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[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> there is more this morning on venezuela and its future. in about a half hour with a review of the election between venezuelan congressman and former president of the country's national assembly. the center for strategic and international studies is hosting that event. it gets underway 11:00 a.m. eastern pretty much it live here on c-span2 but also on c-span

.org or listen on the free c-span radio app. >> this begins on "after words". former national intelligence director james clapper with his book, facts and fears: part truths of life in intelligence. he is interviewed by house intelligence committee member democrat jim heinz. >> what are the weaknesses that they have today and one of the changes that guys like you and me need to think about for the next ten or 20 years in intelligence? >> i think a weakness that release the commission came out with was the fact that the community was is integrated collaborative as it needed to be it was they who recommended the creation of leadership position. the full-time job would be to foster and promote the gratian across multiple components of the intelligence community. one point in the run-up to the

law that came out that was passed after the 911 commission which there was talk of the time about why don't we create a department of intelligence a cabinet department. i think it would be a mistake for this country just because there are lots of reasons but not the least of which the privacy concerns and fears that such a juggernaut intelligence agency would create. for our values may be as awkward as it might be as long as he of a champion for keeping it integrated. >> watch "after words", sunny night and i p.m. eastern on c-span2's book tv. >> before we take you to that second forum on venezuela, live at 11:00 a.m. eastern a portion of today's washington journal

and look at the latest on us, china trade talks. >> host: at the table is jenny