[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> on c-span2 we are live at the center for strategic and international studies for a discussion on last sunday's of venezuelan presidential election and it should get underway shortly. this evening in prime time we will show you a congressional hearing we covered this week

covering sexual abuse in the olympic community and we will hear from the heads of gymnastic, swimming and tae kwon do that testified this week tonight at 8:00 p.m. eastern on c-span2. >> good morning and welcome. we are delighted to have you here. i am the president at the iss and before we start events when we have outside guests we start with a safety announcement. if we hear a voice it will save follow his lead and he will take you right through that door. there are the stairs there that will take you to the alley. you take to left hand turns, a right-hand turn and go over to

the national geographic here there is a great show right now and i will pay for the tickets. nothing will happen, but if it does please follow michael's instructions. thank you for coming today. i was talking with julio as we were getting ready back in the room and i said there is a lot of americans that talk about courage, but i said i can't say how amazed i am to see you in the courage you have embodied for venezuela and, i mean, that sincerely. i can't think of a more traumatic time any more traumatic set of events that gets far too little focusing attention in america. imagine if something, if there was a disaster in america that all of a sudden it 90% of the people in a state lived below the poverty line, would we tolerate that? would that not be the first story every night in the news? when the average venezuelan has

now lost 24 pounds because of starvation, why is that not the lead story every night in america? these are our brothers and sisters, so close to us. to have a country, first world sophistication slip backwards into caves is breathtaking and we are not outraged in this country the way we should be. this is crucial and not enough americans know about it, so we are so grateful that the opposition leader, i hate to call it that, but a hero. julio borges is here to share as his perspective. right now the only washington today is about north korea. well, this story is just as important. this has the same focus and i'm so grateful julio, that you are

here for us because we need to bring this bright spotlight in washington on this tragedy in full to you, so i want to say thank you for coming. to get started, michael, i will turn to you and you will offer plenary remarks. he will get us started for real. i just had to get it off my chest. we are so glad you're here. michael, but it you cannot up and get this program started for real? julio, thank you for being here. 's connect doctor henry, thank you for those words. it's important that you are with us this morning to open this event, which is really one of the most important events we have done in venezuela over these last two years. our venezuela project is one of the top priorities at the americas program here. together with him whose been

here from the beginning. use the first person i hired. we have really tried to shine a light on venezuela in lots of different ways. we have done this with the help of a lot of different people. mark schneider who is back with us in the audience, we've had an incredible team working on venezuela issue. the day after was the initial focus of our work over the first year. of the day after seems to be further away. we hope it will be closer with the passing of the weeks and months. our focus over these last few months has been more on the humanitarian situation in venezuela and we have a number of initiatives there. i'm not going to waste more time talking about in venezuela program. i went to turn the floor over to the three jarmon in front of you , but before doing that i would like to turn to landon loomis, senior advisor on

western hemisphere affairs in international economics for vice president pens. of the vice president and president trump have been very actively engaged on the issue of venezuela and that engagement has clearly made a difference. we very much wanted to have landed with us today to share words before we turn the floor over to the panel. landed? synecdoche, michael. thank you for inviting me to produce a and organizing this event. i would like to recognize julio borges as well, the vice president enjoyed meeting you, julio you're speaking with you and your colleagues, he came away from that encounter compressed by your story, by your eloquence and ability to speak. to a broad and global public about venezuela and i think that as doctor hanley said there is important moment now that we

share our sense of outrage and i can assure everyone the vice president and president share that sense of outrage, but being able to connect and highlight the experiences of leaders like julio is important and appreciate the role you are playing today to do that. venezuela is a top priority for this administration. when vice president pens trouble throughout latin america last year in august, he talked about a sense of urgency. the problems in venezuela has been on a slow-motion crisis especially for a long time and what this administration has done has said this will not stand. there is a sense of urgency in our engagement with venezuela that it's important consistence and the vice president articulate that when we traveled through the region last august. this urgency has becomes become a sense of frustration because despite a historic unique global

sense that what's happening in venezuela is it unacceptable despite the wits build up around the region we still have in venezuela a political situation that is devastating to its people and that sense of frustration is where we were on may 19. i think of my colleagues said this morning, but maduro ministration missed an opportunity on the 20th by holding that election, by not listening to the overwhelming voice of the international community asking the regime to postpone the election: twenty free and fair electoral process and make decisions based on the good well-being of the venezuelan people. the maduro administration missed an opportunity when they held those elections, so as expected may 20, a dictator stole a rigged election.

he won that with a foregone conclusion. he ensured every turn the deck was stacked in his favor, but it's interesting to note that he got half as many votes as the publicly declared what he expected. he set a record for extension more than doubling the extension rates from the last residential election and that's in a country that julio can attest to has a proud heritage of civic participation and engagement. clearly, there is this content, but the cynical use of food as a weapon in the letourneau process has been a decisive factor and it will continue to be while the venezuelan population endures such majority-- misery. the united states for years has maintained a steady drum beat up pressure, campaign to bring the full weight of economic and diplomatic pressure to bring about the peaceful transformation of democracy and restoration of democracy and

will continue to do that. our response after the may 20 election was swift work friday, before the election we designated he and his family for being corrupt officials aiding and abetting the corruption undermining the well-being of the venezuelan country and its people. monday, we issued an executive order that further type the financial sanctions which we have put in place to ensure the corrupt regime does not have access to us financial system. since the beginning with ancient more than 70 venezuelan related individuals are four different executive orders and it's important to remind all of us to highlight an aspect of the sanctions policy which is not always addressed which is what is the purpose of the sanctions policy and why does the us use of sanctions? it's to change behavior. that is to say the sanctions themselves are function of the decisions and choices the maduro

regime is making today. if those choices change behavior changes and dissensions are designed to be removed it and that's an important concept as weak dig about this way forward. ultimately, the way forward solution lies with the venezuelan people the ultimate arbiters of venezuelan democracy are the venezuelan people themselves and this is important for the venezuelan people to think about, how to participate and support be a part of the process of building international pressure which has reached undue level. the us and the world will stand with the-- the venezuelan people we have the general assembly happening next week where we plan to continue our efforts to work collaboratively with countries across the region and across the world for a free, fair credit will election, to address the humanitarian crisis

and restore respect to the constitutionally mandated democratic institution like the national assembly. this project has the full extension of the leadership here in the us. we work across agencies to build coalition partners across the world to share this commitment to work to restore democracy to venezuela. thank you. >> thank you, landon, thank you michael, thank you for being here. julio is a lawyer and politician that pounded venezuela are just opposition party and served as national coordinator since the beginning of the party in 2000. julio borges currently serves his third term as congress for the state which is part of the capital in venezuela national assembly. he also serves as the

nationalist family from 2013 to may 2018. julio borges was an opposition leader between representative the maduro regime and opposition party that took place in the dominican republic and become a leader in venezuela advocating for democracy and calling out human rights violations taking place in venezuela. julio borges study law at one of the best universities-- not saying that because i also went to that same school, catholic university. mastered in philosophy at boston college. julio borges, went to thank you again for coming. we are delighted to have you here and now the floor is yours. thank you.

>> well, thank you for this introduction. i appreciate it. thank you, michael, landon, my friend mark. well, i would like to parts. the first part i went to a new line some issues that are very important in order to understand how venezuela regime is a threat for the security of the region and democracy over the world. secondly, i would like to share with you our view about the future end of the role that opposition has to play in order to seek the change in venezuela. well, first of all, i think what is going on in venezuela is a

connection, a real connection between cuba, nicaragua in venezuela. venezuela has played the role mainly to finance the movement-- extreme movement all over latin america. the recent path, there was a lot of money due to the oil revenue, but now in a different situation right now, but even though we have such a hard crisis in venezuela, venezuelan government -- two weeks ago we had the news that venezuelan government use $400 million in order to buy oil for cuba. in this very moment in which we are facing this huge crisis, venezuela and maduro prefers to

get the money and provide money to cuba and not to use it in a different issue. that's very clear how a real solution venezuela could it lead to a real solution also in cuba and nicaragua as well. for me, it's clear that even the social and political manifestation that we see in nicaragua are the results that venezuela has not money in order to provide funds to nicaragua. all the social unrest that nicaragua is facing is due to the weak capacity of the venezuelan government to provide money for nicaragua in cuba as well. there is a third actor, which is russia. russia probably has not the strength in order to maintain

venezuela as it did with cupid in the past, but for me it's clear russia wants to play a role in order to use venezuela to take part in the region and to destabilize the region to the conference to venezuela and so important business in oil is missing in the recent agreements of venezuela. then, for the point of view of venezuelan government right now i guess that their main expectation is to aid-- waited to see a change in the region. if you see-- i hope you don't, but you will see permanently that all of the hope of venezuela is about change in

mexico, change in columbia and change in brazil. this is a very dangerous situation because in my opinion there is a very real hope and venezuelan government in waiting for change in the region in order to break all the alliance that exists surrounding venezuelan democracy and this is a real danger we are facing this very year and for that it's crucial to obtain a new landscape in latin america in order to break the consensus that exists around the venezuelan democracy and human rights. at the same time, after the so-called election of may 20, we can expect an increase in the number of people going out of venezuela, immigration.

this is a real threat of the region as well pick right now almost three or four million venezuelan people and left the country. this number will grow and this is a very difficult situation for the people around venezuela. we expect that this number due to the political social crisis will increase and will produce also destabilization in the region. as far as the old revenue decrease the opportunity to open a legal activity such as narco traffic or organized crime is growing in venezuela. months ago i have an opportunity to have a meeting with a german official and he told me that the

problem of drug traffic is not only related to subverted groups in latin america such as colombia and venezuela, but also drug traffic has to do with latin america, africa and into europe and then the german government has detected that also the money from the drug traffic is to islamic groups, that they gain money through drug traffic for the region. so, we are talking here and this is increasing in venezuela about a global negative business that has to do with guerrilla movement in latin america, destabilization movement in latin america and also has to do with islamic and radical movement in africa and elsewhere in europe, so there is a common thread that has to do with the

open use of the drug business in venezuela right now. another issue we have to suspect about venezuelan's future is the use of conflict as a defense mechanism for maduro. it is very clear that as far as he is involved more internal troubles he will look for troubles abroad in order to keep our venezuela. that is the case, for example. that is the case in mexico or columbia. it's very clear that there is right now a corruption business related to maduro's government. he buys from mexico, buys from some parts of chile columbia and he was some instructors that after they made the business with people in mexico, colombia

or chile they help radical groups and mexico or chile. that is the case in mexico and in columbia as well. that is the case of different movements in latin america, so the used not only of drugs, but also corruption in order to fund radical movement in the region it will be an increase practice of maduro because he will like to have different problems for venezuela and use conflict over latin america as a mechanism for defense of the concentration as well. that the case would like to underline. another issue i would like to new line, what is maduro's philosophy?

i guess that his only vision will be to resist. that will be his only position in front of all the crisis he has had and is facing already took as you know we have hyperinflation. we have the drug revenue production. we have external feuds with oil industry. we have a huge military internal crisis. we have humanitarian crisis. we had that internal and external pressure and maduro answer for those crisis will be only resistance, not change, but resistance. he will like to be like a new cuba. rodriguez was to you days ago with the european ambassadors nicaragua and he has a unique position for the. he told them he would like to be like cuba. they don't want sanctions.

they don't want to be a difference treatment, but the condition of maduro government for europe was we would like to be treated as fidel castro in cuba. this is clear because they consider themselves a new cuba. the, what maduro doesn't have idea is that economic change in cuba could produce political change in cuba. different from venezuela. venezuela only the political change could produce economic change and freedom. the other way around, but what they have a right on their head, their mind is only to resist trick they don't want the changes. they don't changed economy. they don't want to consolidate. cuba in order to be in power. then, regarding position i would like to be very clear that in

this recent years we have done most everything. we went to the parliamentary election 2015. host: and the government shut down the parliaments. event, we used our mechanism in the constitution to call for recall referenda. the government stop the recall referendum. then, we went to the streets and had 130 days of demonstrations. unfortunately, with an equal number of people who died for the violets with the government took then we went to the regional elections. then we went to a dialogue, the chief of the organization from the opposition dialogue and they close the door in her face. so, we have done everything, elections, dialogue, demonstrations , constitutional mechanism

we have done everything. writes now, we are in a situation in which we did a real damage to the government. of the government never expected to have so low a amount of votes on election. it's a very very important to underline the venezuela people's dignity is so high that even though in order to have something to eat you have to be on your knees before the governments, even though that, people expressed by their dignity with the silence of not participating in the election and i'm very proud that venezuelan people show that amounts of dignity before the venezuelan government. we were not surprised about the outcome of may 20. right now within six countries deny that

election, g20, european union, and added states pick right now we have all the alliance with democracy all over the world. but, we need to thread our internal pressure in order to match external pressure and external pressure and make an outcome this very year, a democratic outcome this very year. for me, it's very important to transmit to you, to emphasize that and landed is very clear about it and vice president pence as well that we are in a real timing, real opportunity for change in venezuela. maduro has created too many crisis, and different in economic issues, social issues, military issues, internal issues that in my opinion he wouldn't

be able to deal with all the crises. people always ask why is maduro in power. what happens at the sky is in power after all of the destruction of venezuela? well, in order to understand this in historical terms, in venezuela there's a mixture of ingredients which are different from other countries. we have oil. we have army force and we have the cuban regime behind us. of the combination of these three elements army force, oil and the cuban regime produce that the change in venezuela, which is happening is happening in a slow-motion like slow-motion the movie. but, it's happening. we have a great outcome

and it have to be this year in order to to take for the final part and have a conversation with you, what about the opposition. we have our main challenge, our main challenge, but not only political unity because the struggle in venezuela is not opposition versus the government. we are building, the whole society against the regime, the church, the university, the unions and the political party. it wants to be the expression of the democratic society that is against a totalitarian regime. we have our first victory may 20, but with a second challenge, which is to produce a

different approach to the army force. we should say to the army force that they are part of the future. that they are part of democracy, that they are part of a development, that we are looking to the army-- not look into the army force or revenge. we have to build together a new and unique country with freedom and institutions for the challenge of opposition is to pursue the world that we have a plan, that we know how to deal with crisis, that we know how to change economy, that we know how to change institutions in order to have a democratic society. @? host: an open society, open venezuela in order to make a huge economic and social exchange with the world. that we know how to do with the crisis.

fourth, that our fourth challenge that change is unavoidable, that change is going to happen, that we are not doomed as cubans in order to live when you for change. that maduro is weak and we are strong, that democracy all over the world and this is a demonstration of that with venezuelan people and with their dignity and with their rights. that change will happen very soon in venezuela. the fifth challenge that we have, this is something that you also have to help us is to show to the rest of the world the deep of the humanitarian crisis in venezuela. that this is something that has to take punches all of the world, what is happening in venezuela, in my opinion, is no comparison with any

crisis right now in the world. i guess that within these long traditions as michael says about venezuela in the united states i'm sure that there is a real compassion about what's going on in venezuela. i have had three meetings with vice president pence and i can feel that he has a personal commitment with venezuela. when he heard your opinion invoice about was going on in venezuela i can feel that it's not only a political term, not only a political problem, it's a human crisis. human crisis that touch your heart, that touch your soul, that touch the history of venezuela and america and i'm very grateful about your devotion about what's

going on in venezuela. it will be something to be very proud in the future when we reach change in venezuela to tell to our sons and grandsons and all of our descendents the roles played america, the roles played latin america, the roles played united states for freedom and dignity in my country, so i'm very grateful for that. on very grateful for that opportunity and most of the challenge that we accomplish as a people is also to collaborate with the threat that right now maduro regime represent for not only the region, not only for the united states, but also for democracy all over the world. thank you very much. [applause].

>> thank you. can i call you julio now? now, we will have about 22 may 25 minutes of conversation between mark and julio before we open it up to q&a. i'm sure many of you have questions, so be patient. before that, mark, friend and colleague has a served in the us government on a private number of different sectors, in the obama administration he served the white house a special assistant to the president. he helped implement the normalization policies for cuba and orchestrate to cuba and argentina. overseeing the development of the colombian initiative and created us assistance to central america.

very poor background on the whole region. consults with mayors on latino american issues and serves as an advisor to the stonebridge group among other groups. thank you, mark, for being with us. you heard julio's remarks. we are all curious to get your thoughts and your reactions before we get into a conversation seem at first, thank you for the invitation. it's an honor to join hugh leo and you. it's a challenging task. i don't think there is anyone who is more eloquent and better informed with what's happening in venezuela and outside venezuela to put additional pressure on the maduro regime and julio. i don't julio for many years. we met 16 years ago when i was a consultant for the radio and tv network

he spoke earlier about how courageous julio is and in my 30 plus years of working around the region and around the world i have met many people who have been fighting for democracy and the rights in the country and i have never met anyone as courageous and committed as julio. he's done great personal sacrifice. he has a beautiful family and i'm confident when the history of this period and final chapter agreement changes unavoidable. julio will go down as one of the heroes in this period. michael spoke earlier about the effort on venezuela with the enormous amount of time we are dedicated to that phenomenal job leading an effort. it's a very very painful and frustrating to work on this issue and i feel

that myself. in the last two years i was in the obama administration and i spent probably more time-- i did spend more time on venezuela than any other issue. i think the same is true with my successor. it's frankly frustrating as landon said the regime has held on i mean despite the highest inflation rates in the world, despite he-- the economic distraction the world and despite probably the highest murder rate in the world , despite significant set of us sanctions and sanctions by other countries and the domestic pressure as well that julio outlined. in terms of the international effort landed spoke well to this. of the united states has taken a lead in sanctioning 70 individuals. it's a target rich environment. this regime is full of senior officials who

have been engaged in corruption and human rights abuses against humanity, drug trafficking etc. juan cruz, my successor with regard to the sanctioning it's one of several. there are plenty more. we have seen sanctions by canada, by the eu, panama and switzerland as well. landon laid out the strategy where nothing is very so-- a sound which is basically to change behavior within the maduro regime. i think the idea is to create fissures within the regime to signal that there's a cost to officials to continuing to align themselves with theirs regime and provide incentives for them to distance themselves and negotiate and provide a way out as well.

not only is it important for those that are sanctioned, but for those that have not been sanctioned yet that they could be next and if they take steps in advance they can avoid getting on that list. we have seen some defections in the regime, but not as much as we would have hoped and perhaps julio can provide insight to that. my understanding is that there are broader sanctions beyond these individuals that the us can impose and the trump administration has imposed. there's hesitation, i think, to go too far. there's been discussion about the possibility of oil embargo, for example in one said this morning that there is a series of steps that can be done in advance and steps that can be taken, but there is concern about inflicting greater pain on the venezuelan people and there's also a sense that greater economic sanctions might be unnecessary because

the economy is collapsing on its own or collapsing because of the misrule of the maduro regime. we see them hot productions and that class has accelerated. there are potential cost to the us as well. with regard to certain measures especially with regard to an oil embargo that could potentially impact some gasoline prices in the us. i think there are more steps than other countries and the us can take. we have external assemblies coming up and i think that would be wonder-- wonderful it venezuela were suspended. it would be-- it's an appropriate move and would send a powerful signal. the venezuelan government prepares they don't care. they do care a lot. we saw what was-- what happened when they were suspended. they put an enormous amount of effort to try to prevent their diplomatic cancellation.

there's only one thing preventing the-- venezuela now and that is the caribbean block. i served in the group 20 years and it the time the caribbean block was a set of 13 countries that felt that were always there providing their vote when it came to issues of democracy and they have effectively been bought out. venezuela provided oil subsidies and i believe caribbean company-- countries have abandoned their principles and i know there's great effort now to try to encourage more caribbean countries to break and divide the votes to suspend venezuela and the organization. minder understanding next week they will publish a report with regard to crime against humanity of those committed in venezuela and that report refers to the icc which can

conduct an investigation of individual venezuelan officials responsible for those crimes against humanity. i think it will be helpful if other countries match what panama did. pantomimes only the latin american country that's taken strong action against venezuela i think there are other steps countries can taken one would hope they would either match panama or take the appropriate steps given their own relationships and economic relationships and financial relationships with the venezuelan regime. i think that despite the efforts it's not clear that international pressure will the sufficient to change behavior and to promote a democratic transition in venezuela. i think especially if you consider there are doctors as well, russia and china which continue

to provide support to the regime. julio reference to russia in particular and i think what we have seen in the last few years is there's been a time with domestic pressure and at times strong international pressure, but they have often not been in sync. a couple years ago and julio outlined this effort for the opposition with protests, demonstrations participation in elections and frankly the international pressure was weak and i think the opposition was undercut with the recall referendum and what it was canceled by the maduro regime and the vatican then jumped in and oversaw talks and negotiations. which ultimately failed because there was no international pressure at the time. now, we see sufficient international pressure, but frankly there's limited local pressure and the tragedy there among the many tragedies there is that the venezuelan people have been demobilized.

this is not a criticism, but an oxidation. people spend their days looking for food, medicine and going into exile in planning their exit. they are afraid because the regime is violent against protesters. they are afraid to go to jail and be tortured and it's all understandable and i think we have for each a point now where many people in venezuela are waiting for desperate measures, military coup, military invasion which won't happen and i think that contributes unfortunately to the demobilization as well. is critical because the maduro regime needs to feel pressure. i guess i would end by posing a question to julio. feel free to take issue with everything i have said especially the final part, but you spoke about the importance of creating greater internal pressure to match the external and i guess the

question is what sort of steps can you take to do that? is there anything the international community can do to create greater international pressure? >> actually, i agree with what you say, mark. marked as someone who knows venezuela very well, as a professional and public servants. we are very thankful. this is part of the timing tragedy that we live. when we have enough internal domestic pressure, there was the beginning of international pressure and there is no match for both. right now the situation in venezuela, people come from venezuela here knows that thus ability to at least organized or two call for demonstrations, for example, right now is

limited. all social and political access is under real fear and more than fear, panic because the government have no limits to do whatever they want. i guess the only window of opportunity has to do with the social issues regarding hyperinflation , food and medicine. all of the regular people live under fear. i guess the participation could be so dramatic in the future, more dramatic than it is right now which is a tragedy, but it can be more dramatic as people could fear and go and demonstrate their real feelings. it's a very curious, but

we see these people's behavior may 20. it was a very clever and sharp way to protest without violence. those people took the position, as i mentioned , although they depend on the government for food, people took the position no 2% and know to go to vote. i'm very sure that the limited situation people can overcome fear and make demonstrations. it's almost as nicaragua , no one suspected nicaragua demonstration rides, no one and it happened. it has to do, it's related to venezuela, so

answering your question, mark, i think that we should expect internal pressure coming from the social and economic reality more than the political and political play-- role to play in this situation is to make easier the organization people to demonstrate for their brights. >> pickett, julio. thank you, mark. on the same line, i know this is an important issue and i agree with you both, domestic and international pressure is needed to see any change in venezuela. we all knew what's going to happen the day after the elections. nicolas maduro was elected, but i haven't really seen yet any plan moving forward. so, can you describe for us, julio, what kind of

ideas to the venezuelan people have two i engage -- to engage to restore democracy cracks were kind of plan moving forward can they engage and mobilize that domestic pressure needed >> well, it's a crucial question and we have to start to think is that we are in a fact situation. it's a situation and you have two fights, strength versus strength there is no legal constitutional institutional battle field. it's just strength and that's where maduro led venezuela to the jungle as we leave right now venezuela. so, in that situation we as opposition have the

challenge mentioned about unity, about the message with the army force, about the plan for the future, about military in crisis. we have to keep the idea of elections as the final goal for a solution venezuela. and this is not a idealistic romantic or naïve position. we are aware that we are facing a very tough situation in venezuela. in any of these scenarios of venezuela, if we have undergone a coup d'état or undergone a social explosion or we have to go for a new and real negotiation, a real one, the final goal has

to be elections in venezuela and we have to be clear about that. one thing is change, change of the current establishment and the other thing is what is the final call we are looking at building for, which is free expression of venezuela and the people. for people in venezuela and abroad it seems awkward that we are talking about elections, but it has a real argument we don't have election may 20. we say not to this so-called election and we would like to have real elections in venezuela and this is a role they have to play, democratic leaders, administrator and democrat leaders that support venezuela to support real elections in venezuela, but not in a naïve that way, but under real consciousness

being very aware that we are facing a dictatorship in venezuela and there's a reason we want real elections in venezuela. implements that i mentioned before about unity, about our solutions for the crisis, about our message for the army force, about humanitarian crisis, about our approach the international community, about the change in venezuela, but with the final goal elections and freedom for the people no matter what could come. this change in venezuela will be a social explosion. it will be a military reaction. it will be a real negotiation, we don't know. we are pushing for change with the final goal that is a democratic election in venezuela. >> thank you, julio. there was a turning point after may 20, there was something that

happened that we have never seen before, i mean, the internet so community president maduro is the president of venezuela. i mean, they condemned the international assembly not recognizing them. they condemned all the institutions, but maduro had recognition as a president. now, there is a day the going on what type of legitimacy has maduro moving forward. is he the president of venezuela or no longer the president of venezuela? there's also government operating, a supreme court operating in the parliament of columbia. there is different institutions trying to operate, so can we get your thoughts. how do you see these issues moving forward in terms of legitimacy of the current regime of venezuela and other institutions that are

increasingly gaining importance in the international community? >> well, that's the reason i said that we are living that situation. maduro was not elected president, but he's there, but he doesn't have to do with his authority or his democratic outcome, no. it's a dictatorship that is using and kidnapping power. venezuelan people have done, as i mentioned, everything in order to produce a change of venezuela. i think that it can crucial factor in change has to do with the army force and one of my main concerns is that after may 20, the main principle enemy of it

maduro and cuba is the venezuelan army force. i'm sure that maduro and cuba right now our thinking how to destroy army force in venezuela and this is something that have to call attention to democracies all over the world because this is the last institution that we have in order to restore democracy in venezuela. they are right now producing a huge repression on the army force in this repression is led by cuban officials and it's very clear that after may 20, that would be the new trophy that maduro wants to show to the cubans in destruction of the army force in venezuela.

anything different from that right now, government in exile or institutions in exile they can help in order to call attention, but in the urgency that we are living in right now venezuela this problem about the almost destruction of the army force has to be one of the most important issues that we should put on the political and public opinion. .. they have been trained and armed

by the chinese, the russians, the cubans in different ways and if they've engaged in human rights abuses and crimes against humanity and engaged in other collectivity, human trafficking for example. i look at them and they seem to be an unlikely democratic savior, if you will. but obviously no forces monolithic and that's part of the answer but you could speak to that little bit. >> you see right now in the last two or three weeks there are more than 200 [inaudible] and there was a real surprise because they thought that these officials were the new generation of an army force and the great surprise was that

these people don't like what is going on in venezuela and don't like the cuban influence within the army force and maduro and undemocratic behavior and it's very important that the new elite of young people from the army corps have a reaction for the democratic and constitutional behavior in venezuela and for me it provides me a lot of hope that there is a moral reservoir within the structure that we are living in venezuela and mainly among young people in the army force and we're not talking about two or three guys that are talking about the government but more than 200 officials so we are not in front of a small consternation but before a huge rebellion within the army force

was a totally different. the whole institution and they are saying we don't want to be cuba and we have to take attention to be attention to that situation which is happening right now. >> thank you, julio. a very brief question before return. the us maine policy has been section policy and have sanctions been effective in your point of view and what else can be done to increase its effectiveness and towards the behavior of change that they were describing for us? >> as i told you i was the chief of the opposition of representation in dominican republic during four months and if tensions were not working the government talked about sanctions nine and trying to [inaudible] and it was amazing.

in every single second was sanctions and we don't want more sanctions and everything so sanctions aren't working. it is important element not only for punishment but for the vision within the regime and it's amazing when there is a rumor that new sanctions are coming from europe or from the united states these guys that you see screaming at the tv about revolution they tried to say to everyone they know so they are full of fear and full of fear of sanctions and working at a very strong elements in order to break the system or to leap to a renegotiation and have no doubt about the efficiency of

sanctuaries and the government is out of sanctioning all of the problem of hyperinflation and all revenue in the problem of the international views of chronicle [inaudible] have to be blamed on maduro's merging and has nothing to do with sanctions. we have to be clear and they want to blame sanctions on venezuela but i have so many research as good as marx research that says the people done by the argument that venezuela crisis is due to the sanctions and it's very clear that the economic and social disaster has to do only with the

maduro. he tried to sell during the last six years that the has to do with what he calls the economic work and they repeated right now currently and in the surveys people who believe that the economic work was arguing about the social crisis it was not more than 13%. one other thing we have to be hopeful about the change in venezuela is and this is important is that there is a real mental change to venezuela people. i remember one of these services that marked about the reputation and it was amazing at that time 90% of venezuela supported [inaudible] and they were happy and we like more from the

private sector to the state and right now the support is at 3%, 3%. from 90% to 3%. what is important of these facts is people had to change. people had an in investment and people were trade and democracy and they don't buy the cuban project anymore because this is a very important issue that shows that venezuela people are really ready for change and right now. >> you have all been very patient. before you ask a question identify yourself, your name and affiliation and keep the questions short, please. yes.

>> hello, i'm danny from the bookings institution. i want to push back the question because he asked about the strategy and you talk about the day after and you say the day after there will be an election and i think we all agree on that but there's a little bit of a vacuum on what are the steps until the day after and you mentioned two things i want to divide the question because i'm an economist and i was more than a question but i promise one is that you are saying there is a slow-motion change happening and i wonder what is the evidence on that and is there something there that you know that maybe we don't know and i guess if you can't say that i guess not but i would love to know what the evidence on the fact that there's a slow change happening because some other people claim the economy is in terms of social control their very strong but if there is a slow change happening maybe you don't need a strategy but if there is no evidence of it what is the

strategy? he said he tried dialogue elections so what is the strategy that will unify as i believe that unifying for the takeover is not an option and you need to unify around the strategy and that is what it looks from outside and having said all this is not a judgment and i know it's a tough position but giving that we are in this setting i would enjoy hearing your thoughts. thank you. >> thank you. >> let's do that one first and feel free to comment. >> well, i think there are a lot of evidence about change in venezuela and let me say this i don't see no example of no evidence of change. if you see what is going on in the economy with the hyperinflation and what is going

on with the coproduction and within the army force and an international real all these factors if you accumulated and assume all of them the force of change that is happening in venezuela and two months ago it was impossible to talk about the military crisis and now it is an open issue in venezuela. it was impossible to think about military people having a rebellion and now there is a real issue in the government answers to repression. for the government change has to do with impossibility to maintain and the possibility to have all the financial help to look for evidence for change. maybe it's too early for maduro

but i don't recognize your elections but change is a year ago as mark said i remember i was in europe year ago talking about sanctions and i remember the president telling me if it were to happen europe is not prepared for sanctions to venezuela and it has happened. a year ago it was impossible to think about it in the united states and this happened more than 30 officials so if you see a in a very objective way there has been a lot of change in the last month in regards to venezuela but the question is the same why is maduro in power? if there is that amount of pressure on maduro. well, i repeat it. the commendation of what is an oil today with what they have

with army force and through cuba and you shake it and that is with reserve maduro in power which is fragile but, in my opinion, the real support they have right now if you take that there is nothing else that supports maduro within or abroad venezuela. >> mark. >> at the risk of offering advice a foreign politician about his own country and i do that with great hesitation but i do think that part of the oppositions approach does need to be about unity and reconciliation. the maduro base is very small and the chubby visa base is not. there is a difference and hugo chavez whether you like him or not the truth is at times he was

popular with extraordinarily high approval ratings. part of that had to do with high oil prices and whatnot but there was a people had with him. years ago i recall hearing venezuelans talk about hugo chavez and even people who were not identified government would say for the first time in our lives we have a president who cares about the poor and we can agree or disagree but that was the perception that people had of hugo chavez. i think his legacy has been damaged considerably by maduro and it seems the consequences of what chavez tried to do. that said venezuela is a although overwhelming support for maduro has little there is still a severely polarized society in many ways and we think the united states is polarized but nothing compared to venezuela. any new government will have to take that into consideration both in terms of rhetoric in terms of programming and

policies reaching out. >> any other questions? >> let's take to this time. >> there was a big discussion in venezuela about white maduro called last sunday's election and there was several goals and one of them was to [inaudible] and the second one was to discard the opposition and to replace and recommend opposition and the third one was to change inside and some thing it has to do with [inaudible] a great part of the publicity in the campaign was not as in venezuela and if

the [inaudible] about economy and social situation and sanctions. in your view were these goals achieved by the election last sunday? >> the state one on the backs. >> hello. i'm john and have a quick question. if you could share with us and thoughts about the role that [inaudible] has played in venezuela that the election you were there supporting the election recently met with

[inaudible] and it seems he's up to something in a wonder we think he's up to? >> i would like to answer it with -- >> they say one first. [laughter] >> no, there is a real connection. on sunday may 20, the date of the election he was very sad and he was in a meeting with a journalist from spain and europe and some ambassadors and he was angry and mad because he was really clumsy and i'm not sure what the corresponding word is but [inaudible] because he said

that all the purpose failed on may 20 and his chief aim was to produce these new dialogue with the new opposition and it was important that he deny and reject the result and even important for you to know that maduro called two times that night and he rejected to take the telephone to talk to maduro. it was very important because beyond the election the purpose to continue the fictional dialogue with them was dismantled. his internal numbers with the new political process was a

complete failure as well. in my view, as you mentioned gustavo, there is no one issue for maduro to celebrate, not even one. even the one the elections it was a period trial and in my opinion may 20 put maduro and a countdown if we keep the pressure and keep the plan and we are willing and capable of building that we are not in opposition but an alternative for democratic course in venezuela i really believe that maduro is living a countdown. the role that he played is very sad and amazing to understand how this guy who was president

of spain eight years and is doing this kind of role for this regime and no explanation for that. the official response of the spaniard government was very strong against him in public opinion spain is killing him. people in venezuela. [speaking in spanish] >> they kicked them out. >> kicked him out from the election centers so he wants to try again and again to be part of a new dialogue with the government and it's something we have to reject and we ask to our friends and allies in venezuela to object to the role he

displayed because it was harmful for democracy, not only venezuela but in the region, as well. >> mark, any thoughts? >> briefly, i think it's a reminder that there's a range of international actors in venezuela has not been awful and it goes beyond the few countries that we often name. similarly, i spoke to one individual and we saw earlier and it was an honorable role that i think that is fading now as other countries are taking more of a lead and the dynamic is better and he used to be at the center of activity and now he's very much isolated. it's a positive thing. >> any other questions? >> one here and then one over there. >> thank you. i just arrived from venezuela two months ago. one question for mark would be with your experience and the us government there's a catch 22 of

support of humanitarian assistance to venezuelan that i know firsthand the real impact of the crisis in venezuela but stabilizing the crisis in venezuela could have a counter effect of stabilizing the government and do you feel that could be in any way and how to go with those station. julio, what does that mean politically? if you solve the humanitarian crisis does that favor the government or show that the government failed in trying to govern venezuela? >> yes, thank you. two more on the other side. >> good afternoon. my name is [inaudible] from malaysia. if i may give a little perspective and observation because i was posted in venezuela the past three years and just arrived in dc a couple months ago. i totally understand the situation in venezuela because i

live there the past three years and they went through the protest last year and went through the hunger and went through the shortages of everything. what i want to ask and what want to highlight is the clinical crisis issue in the constitution crises of humanitarian crises in venezuela most of them people forget and for me need to understand first the social element in venezuela. he pointed out venezuela is a unique country and you need to understand from your perspective and you have spoken about the measures to restore democracy in venezuela and true dialogue and true protests but it seems like it is not working for the past chavez era. he started the process in 2003

or 2002 and many rounds, and in 2,132,017 and it did not work so far and also your talking about dialogue. it depends on how you come to the negotiating table. if you're talking about force and the sanctions by the us and eu sanctions it did not work because first have to understand venezuela. i think the element many people fail to understand the element in the thinking of venezuela. you are coming from [inaudible] and the problem for me is what i see the gap. the positive gap between the far left and far right. you do not have a moderate sense

to bring back to the people. coming from malaysia we have witnessed what is happening in our general elections. we thought any use of force or anything that we change the government. the 52 -year-old government we got changed. your talking corruption and things like this which you highlighted earlier but for me you need to look at the people first and what people want and how you educate the people. >> okay. >> that's what i wanted to -- >> thank you. >> in the united states we do not use food as a weapon. the maduro regime uses that and i'm not privy to discussions with landon and cruise and i'm confident they're making every effort possible to get food assistance into venezuela as quickly as possible. i make no other consolations about that but the reason food is not getting in is because the venezuela government is lucky. usaid has warehouse in miami and

that food could arrive in venezuela in ours. maduro -- federal government defines right now that they will accept humanitarian existence it would be today or tomorrow and there's only one thing blocking it from happening and obviously the united states has been providing financial assistance to columbia into the un network to provide as much administering assistance to neighboring countries and the key is getting in there and some is but not nearly enough. >> will, i would say that what is a tragedy for public opinion about venezuela for maduro it's the best thing that is happen to him. he likes people leaving venezuela and enjoys people going out venezuela and it is

declining and ramon could tell us but right now they're trying to live with permit dances. remittances. we need a survey last year and at that time there was 17% of the population received some help from a friend or family abroad so there was a growing amount of money that we are subsidizing in the duros regime and people are working here in washington and columbia or brazil for maduro. it is a tragedy. what is the drama for us is the humanitarian crisis for maduro's revolution and we have to take

that into account because he is happy that people are leaving venezuela because people have the freedom and capacity to work and to maintain the regime with remittances and this is a real tragedy that in the new step whether it's no more oil in the same amount this money is perfect for him and it's the reason he took the control because it's the main source of this kind of operation from millions of venezuela in different countries to their families within venezuela. >> by the way, remittances have become as julio was saying an important for the country. oil has always been of the main income and remittances will soon if the tendency continues will soon surpass the oil and that's a very important factor to keep

in mind. if there is something clear in washington that venezuelans are not alone but were watching closely what is going on on the ground trying to help and we will continue to do so. we want to thank you to be here with us and thank you so much. keep fighting for democracy. we all need it. thank you. [applause] >> thank you much. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]

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[inaudible conversations] >> prime time tonight in the c-span networks: all of that tonight at 8:00 p.m. eastern. this weekend on "after words" former national intelligence director james clapper with his book, facts and fears: hard truths from a life and intelligence. he's interviewed by house intelligence committee member democrat, jim heinz.

>> what are the weaknesses that the icy has today and what are the changes that guys like you and me need to think about the next ten or 20 years? >> i think a witness that at least the 911 commission came out with was the fact that the community was integrated collaborative as it needed to be and it was they who recommended the creation of a leadership position whose full-time job would be to foster and promote integration across multiple components and one point in the law that came up was passed after the 911 commission which established the position and there was talk at the time about why don't we create a department of intelligence, a cabinet

department, which i think would be a great mistake for this country just because for lots of reasons but the not the least of which would be privacy concerns and fears that the juggernaut intelligence agency would create. our values and is maybe as awkward as it might be as long as you have a champion for keeping it integrated. >> watch "after words" sunday night and i'm p.m. eastern on c-span2 book tv. >> the national rifle association recently held its annual leadership forum in dallas. commentators diamond and silk in north carolina congressman richard hudson participated. this is moderated by executive director chris cox. >> it's a forefront of mark zuckerberg's trip to capitol hill last month. it's a forefront of this trip