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♪ ♪ [inaudible] >> thanks for coming this afternoon. this is a launch of an event from revolution muslim to islamic state, which was cowritten by an investment banker on 9/11 and saw the planes crash into the towers and decided to do something different with his life, which was go to columbia and do an

m.a. in middle easterntudies. after that come he joined the police department and one of the most important targets that he had was this group that no one knew much about the revolution islam, which the other co-authors of the report were involved in founding. and so, they will talk about the themes and ideas in the report and then can this motto, senior fellow at new america at alexander state university was involved in the resolve cbe after and as a valued colleague of ours here. we will me me observations about the report and open up to a wider conversation. mitch, jesse and candice.

>> good afternoon, everyone. first of all, i would like to think new america here for hosting, but more importantly the idea of the paper written by a former jihadi a professional was link to support us with an unconventional request and i appreciate your willingness to go along with this into stephen sturman at new america whose a tremendous editor as we had dance our efforts in writing this paper. it is sort of an interesting timing that we are here on june 4th because the impetus to this paper and frankly the collaboration between jesse and myself was triggered really a year ago yesterday. and what bout was was an attack

in london on the london bridge, were three individuals in a van as you remember it drove the van on the bridge knocking people into tiver, jumped out wearing fake suicide vest and then proceeded to enter the market attacking people. they injured 48 and killed five e4 they were subdued. now, what attracted my attention beyond obviously the horror of this attack and they did it in the name of the islamic state. but the leader of this group was the individual who was a member of a group called al-muhajiroun. this is a group well known in the u.k. an islamist group, jihadis fell off the group that garnered great demonstrations in the u.k. they often talk about the black

flag of the caliphate over parliament, but more imptaly , during these times as many as 30% when we are talking to british security services in the u.k. terrorism anals my as 50% of u.k. terrorism suspects. at some point in time passed through al-muhajiroun. why was that of interest to me? well, it turns out that in the united states specifically, there is a group called revolution muslim, which is glad and is a spinoff of aluhajirn. inside the new york city police department, we look at as many as 15 different ces, individuals in the united states and overseas who were directly radicalize violence by following revolution muslims either actively or interacting with

jesse or passively by observing what revolution must almost doing. you see right there in the corner wt is interesting than what struck me was that this has been going on since 2001. on the top right-hand corner is an individual new yorker, they were still smoldering after 9/11. that fall he left new york. he gone to the military academy, seen john and pharmacy school, to go essentially be the first post-9/11 foreign fighter. what group had he been radicalized by in new york city? al-muhajiroun in new york city. 16 plus years later, al-muhajiroun and it affiliates causing death and destruction around the world and the elements of the new york story

and thinking about writing this commend the idea is what about writing this with the individual at this group in new york. i reached out t a he was interested and i want to thank jesse for his hard work and couldn't have done this without him. he didn't actually see afghanistan action in afghanistan but he did provide materials, sleeping bags to al qaeda and the fact participated in a training camp in 2004 were some of tev bombers as well as a member of a plot called crevice in the u.k. were involved. so again, al-muhajiroun in the spinoff badly -- [inaudible]

they spun off the revolution. in the paper we talk about the origins of al-muhajiroun. really have to go back to the 1950s in the middle east but that just provides some of the background for it. you know, why we think this topic was so important and what was always on my mind in thinking about revolution, some of the unknown story was that revolution muslim was responsible for these 15 different individuals are plot around the world. many of these that you have heard of but may not have understood what the connection

was with revolution muslim. some of these i mentioned, we have a column active. they were interacting with jesse and his colleagues in revol ando do this, should a travel abroad? jesse was helping to radicalize them pick and did some of them were much more passive. some of these individuals wanted to travel overseas. from new jersey who want to join all shabbat in somalia. then there was samir khan who was killed in a drone strike with anwar al-awlaki who slept in nypd under covers apartment in new york city after meeting with jesse and the revolution muslim the guys before he left for yemen. you also daniel who is connected to the group while he was overseas hiding with al-shabaab. but not only were there foreign fighters come there are individuals in your soup wanted

terrorist attacks. individual named -- who tried to build a kitchen, build a bomb in the kitchen of his mom and did one to attack the new york city bway stem with it. so following directive from inspire magazinou had an individual like -- who wanted to fly a drone into the pentagon and interacted, a interactive relationship with jesse and his colleagues. but it wasn't only in the u.s. and people like jihad jane, a passive follow-through wanted to travel overseas and kill kirk kt westergaard for guilford individuals in the uk who had a plot against the london stock exchange. so all these different plots around the world come back to revolution muslim, jesse. and from the nypd standpoint, this was the jesse, this was the

mohamed we knew demonstrating a newark city, in time square if i believe, yet, this was actually may 1, 2010 which some of you may remember is the day that by subtle shot -- faisal shod drove his vehicle into times time sq, had nothing to do with jesse and revolution muslim in particula but there he was that day two blocks away earlier in the day doing his provocative demonstration. we talk about it, another piece at west point settlement nypd using under covers, informants, civilian analysts and digital under covers to be able to support revolution muslim the plots around the world. that's a little bit on the positive side of the get will talk more about that in q&a, all images lead that as a set up and headed over to jesse from there.

>> thank you, mitch, thank you peter and new america for having us. the primary complnt tt revolution muslim -- [inaudible] we split from them was pretty much twofold. one, we felt that they had that recognize the going interest of the net and the voltage applied in radicalization. number to compel unwilling to unabashedly support and endorse al-qaeda publicly. we differed in that. for them, street demonstrations in real-world activity was a means of relinquishing yourself from the sin that would be associated with some not calling for the reestabliment o the caliphate. but for s.b. and it was a means of creating a globalized network that could sort of rotten parallel to identifications that are so-so with the nationstate, the west, or whatever. you can see the efforts that we engaged in were essentially the

onset of virtual caliphate. we recognize the importance of off-line activity and everything we did including eating, talking passively on subways, training, working out in the backyard, ideological question and answers with this, that was a source with a website can we shut evngerythi we did. we give this whole countercultural perception to our polymers and were able to basically impart the message that online online at kojima te created was not just about the ideology but it was a putting the ideas that w were disseminating into practice. an important principle that we sort of utilized was that i'll e off-line activity that i was discussing the online. we were essentially than on september 25, 2007, when then arming the president mark mood moment in the shot campus while he was there in your city for general assembly of united nations event. i was at clinic of the time and

started that date in class with lisa anderson went on to be, the dean of american institute in cairo but by the midafternoon i was embedded with -- the second picture -- my associate who is gone to become the cofounder of revolution muslim in cipra israel and protesters on a sign that said may allah make a mushroom cloud over you. this appeared in the "new york post." it aoppeared all of anti-islam websites and we saw very quickly the power of creating controversy. we were consciously polarized society. it was one of our primary agendas and i think that wasn'tt just as but we do see that has continued to of all. every time the need to point to evidence that muslims in america want to establish sharia law they had but one proof, and i was always us. we benefited from that any of us administered from that as well. on my nintendo support by recording everything we did

together as a set and so that was the way in which the off-line and off-lin we would radicalize you online before we would urge you to act in the field. that's mainly what distinguished us. one of the other things that was very important and very -- that was very important for us was to manipulate the mainstream media. for us it wasn't so much about what was going on in at kojima light but an effort to be controversial so the meeting would cover you. it gave us a sense of legitimacy and an ability to reach a wider audience. weecovered on fox and cnn where we were constantly covered as a group that was very small but the way the congress made us larger than actually were. for a followers have made us look like we're actually legitimate actors, parts of scene in fox's we paired on

anti-american outlets which gave us the video of intellectualism and including public television talk shows, the longest-running public television talk show right now is you can see yunis sitting to discussing that. th allowed us to solidify the notion that we were a legitimate movement inside the might of our years and also major means of recruiting. another of her efforts i think has mastered was her utilization to be -- at the time were launched in 2007 there there was a major transition from the internet discussion forums websites as the core through the jihadist ideology and propaganda was disseminated, and were migrating i guess everyone was looking at new outlets. in early 2008 i received a dvd in jamaican semi-dvd of him on national television to make a show called religious -- now held -- and out along have to be

but a segment showed them telling a cleric, a catholic cleric, that jesus himself preached jihad. and asking the clerk to look up a piece of evidence which was an allegory in the gospel one seof the allegory in the clinic did not know that it existed. he was essentially humiliated. it was a very interesting change. i experiment with digital editing software and made a movie or a youtube clip approximate nine minutes the link that announced his return because it recently been released from incarceration in britain and after that i showed the clip. that clip with essentially viral and we realize quickly of power of social media 2.0, you might say. this was essentially the start of revolution muslim channel which became a major means of our radicalizing effort. to this day that particular video has been crossposted on both because it doesn't pilot terms of green.

it can't be taken down or it hasn't taken it and have millions and of views it as asa mother over 5 million views. so we really knew the general social. 2.0 is powerful when you saw the jihad jane case. jihad jane was codis someone who has subscribed to youtube channel and was influenced by it and it was that case there was set off this idea that we are transitioning away from a primary concern attacks plotted and planned in order directive from overseas more into leaderless lone wolf style threat to the homeland. once jihad jane was covered as a subscriber to youtube channel, essentially that was a time when we were able to make that position. this continue to happen in case after case, and for example, a particular importance with the

case of -- and stabbed a british member of parliament at our college campus in 2010, and it was in her interview with law enforcement agency that you said the two primary means of her meditation was revolution.com and listening to lectures. this continue to happen as was the time and time again when you saw the internet facilitating a progression from radicalization to actual action. it wasn't just youtube. the indictments against me apart from over in n domains, revolution muslim you social media platforms and google groups, twitter. we were probably the first jihadist organization in the english language axis all of the social media sites that were pretty much transitioning into becoming the primary source for information.

the other setting effort we engaged in was design very first english-language magazine. when of our key connections and associates at revolution muslim who traveled to join al-qaeda, but before he left for yemen we started what was called jihadist recollection, and it was authorized by anwar al-awlaki and i wrote the lead article for the very first edition. it ran for only four issues but when you compare as you can see in the image, would you compare jihadist recollection you can see the template is almost identical. it hasn't changed hard at all. that's both in design and pretty much in content. it also is interesting to consider the evolution associate with samir khan, combining together in the arabian peninsula represent the very first and we had this

opportunity to become a virtual plotter. so no americans embedded with jihadist overseas have come equipped with fluency with english, tech skills and experience radicalizing in their own country. english-language propaganda was not so much and important to the west from jihadist organizations but very much in export in an american-style to organizations and terrorist organizations overseas. this is an image of a program that most people are not necessary aware about. in 2009 we used use this to sep our scholar abdul faisal shahzad to preach and hold online classes. preachers such as muscle for recording sessions with him and we would have religious principles, while that up with his course about current affairs. our administered who were mostly phenotype the notes to students

in the room and give links to propaganda and articles on the revolution website. they could chat during the discussion then there would be a q&a session with the could ask questions and get responses from the preachers that were preaching and then for

well viewed in the very first thing provence was everything addition of inspire magazine in the english language. that happened recently. so basically inspire by an open-source jihad as a london bus and to drink at home instead of risky and dangerous travel abroad. in the same manner suggests, five days after his death, a transition the name of the englishmen was magazine from that and immediately they included a section of that as title just carry the tactics but it is a replication of the open-source jihad model. finally, as isis loses territory the threat will increase and

resemble that posed by revolution muslim. you can see a few of the slide on screen show examples of isis supporters pick it up the model in the template for radicalization that faisal revon muslim use, translating content they are finding coming from, doing it in english-language what can maintain its influence. as isis becomes a virtual caliphate that will do what al-qaeda did in the aftermath of its own territory lost after 9/11, and also in the aftermath of the air spring when a lot of people assume that al-qaeda threat would diminish, had osama bin laden issuing messages they said we should endorse it, that jihadist should embed inside, change the ideology so the next can come to islamic. during this time in the 2011th era, al-qaeda and groups like the islamic state and about

become essentially a brand. they became an idea and that's how they could maintain influence. waiting patiently in what they consider to be a war of attrition only trying to bankrupt us so we could no longer interfere in the middle east. meanwhile, after my arrest in may 2011 revolution was bush about but the authentic page on howalk, the collaboration in britain and across including sharif or belgium which went on for recruitment, continue. and so while there was no caliphate, though still the dissemination of the ideology and that is what really i think made a lot of westerners who were pre-and doctor did with this idea of the caliphate flock to the desperate that the caliphate had been resurrected. so today i think we'ven opportunity to attack the roots of radicalization in recruitment at a a think that's associate h the territory losses, but i think in order to go further and to attack the idea come to come

up with effective means of countering violent extremism, i think which understand that it's template and the methodology of recruitment and radicalization and that's the reason mitch and i wrote the paper because this is a historical progression. went isis came out with its big social media apparatus and its ability to tap into mainstream coverage, i think it was assumed this is something new. the product of a long elution and i think that one very interesting quote that it think is one from michael rapoport who developed a very famous model for waves of terrorism. and start his religious organization in 1979 and model the basically the last 20 or 30 years which were surpassing that. he said it's composed of organizations for waves and organizations have very different life little. >> norment organizations disappear before the initial wave associate with them does

but when the waves energy cannot inspire new organizations, the wave disappears. resistance political concessions from changes in the perception of generations are critical factors in explaining the dispute. as jihadist transition, not actual operatives, addressing the variables the rappaport explained is key to ending the war on terror. why militaries must continue, isis territorial law and the potential like a domestic terrorist attacks and arrests must not lead i think us to colacenc that's the pattern that has occurred since the post-9/11 era. that was a mistake made after osama bin laden and myself revolution muslim were removed from the plainfield website to other geopolitical situations. when the united states and its allies pulled out of iraq, not contribute engagement in the middle east and at the same time failed to effectively implement countering violent extremism initiatives and to advance them. so the revolution was the

template in ideology and methodology might have evolved from the qualitative and quantitative perspective, but it's still hard to be given that's what we need to understand. a ofontraction i think this paper and since help us f on attacking the ideas and also by tagging ideas, but i don't think the networks and methodology and temp listing of the break up those networks so that individual associate with the revolutions cannot continue to resurrect themselves and there's lots of examples of that also included in the paper. thank thank you very much, i lok forward to the discussion. >> i need to say to mitch and jesse, obviously a big deal to put together a paper like this. it takes a lot of courage and a lot of patience and perseverance to kind of untangle all the

strands. so congratulations on doing that. for me i think the most striking part of the p a couple things that stand out from a tactical level. the first is just how quickly the twitter first has mushroomed come allifferent iterations and variations of that jihadist ilk over the last decade or so. but but i think probably even me striking than that is the sort of classic struggle between the bureaucracy and innovations, which is the story of all intelligence failures, the story of all security threats in many ways. there's something better just not a template anyway. i think the nypd clearly showed that it is learned lessons from 9/11 that wanted to innovate by taking them on recruits who can get out there and collect

information in communities where you arabic speakers, but it turned out the surprisingly the english speakers with the ones to look out for. so again another lesson learned there, certainly, forhe reaucracy thatually innovation comes in surprising small packages sometimes. on the policy side obvious in washington the discussion has been very dominated by these concerns dictaphone dhs, department of homeland security, around homegrown jihadists and how to get ahead of the curve online. what this demonstrates is that this is difficult to do, especially if, in fact, there's a sort of unwillingness to engage with some of the key issues around the potential radicalization in prisons, the need to have some sort of

preintervention methodology. there is i think a fundamental challenge around the need for assessment tools, particularly psychological assessment tools. i know there are some specialist here in the crowd who could probably speak to that much better than i i but clearly the are some deficits that it think the paper points out there just in terms what the proxy is able to do in handling -- the reaucracy -- what is a relatively small group of people and yes context but actually as we know in the french and belgian context quite large, same with the german context and uk as well. there's some pretty severe policy implications going forward in terms of now as jesse pointed out that isis core is diminished at least physically and territorially speaking, and they may float back online and mushroomed there.

there is thishaenge around homegrown terrorists foreign fighters who will return back, who come back with clean pas who may not have been detected who will be coming back from iraq or from syria. that's the reason, i don't have big that threat is but it is certainly there. certainly the bureaucracy is not quite prepared for that. when a you talk about the bureaucracy on talking about combined bureaucracy of homeland security and state department, usaid and others in the national security apparatus. one of the reasons is the typical response bureaucracy is to throw money at a problem but in sort of relatively kind of unintentional, unfocused manner. that's where we are at right now, unfortunately, but there are some lessons to be learned. it doesn't really come out in this paper but we talked a little bit about the fact that

uk example, , the scandinavian example with right wing extremist presents an opportunity for the united states and its bureaucracy, dhs and others, to learn how to deal with those coming back from iraq and syria, but also to create opportunities for those who are exiting, those who leave prison as jesse did come to reintegrate. that's the other they challenge that we don't want when we talk about is the return from prison after serving your time and how difficult that is for a whole swath of people, not just of course from the jihadist. gang members, others all struggle with the same thing, which is a deep black of social safety net for those who have been incarcerated and served their time. in fact, i think our system generally i think we all

knowledge is one that embraces the idea that the punishment continues even after. and you will be deprived of mental health care, you'll be deprived of basics of transitioning back into the social fault. so those are some really big issues and i think jesse and mitch kind of fallujah in the report that a very important to grasp onto the most important i think for the bureaucracy now as it struggles, nasa's could apparatus here struggles to grapple with this problem, great temptation to throw a lot of money at online problem but they're still a huge, huge off-line problem in terms of potential returning foreign fighters as well as the reintegration process which is critical. i think we can see in the case of troubles in ireland, other instances where those who decide to leave the fight can be very constructive in managing the

reintegration process, become peers, become resource of those getting out. >> thank you, candace. it's interesting, i guess, predictions about the future, but let's try. because i do think that the point of the paper is absolutely true, which is this template, aqap obviously kind of took it and the net became the isis template. let's accept the kind of fractured nature of the middle east is going to produce a set of eyes or a grandson of isis. we don't know what it's going to be called. it could be a could link up with elements. there could be giveaways but it would use the isis template. to a letter. the question is what will it do that is different? let's assume it will be able to

take over territory the size of the net kingdom and a part russian the ofwitzerland for all sorts of reasons. one area, it's a question and one idea, which is these groups always taken it over the latest technology is. r al-qaeda, at the beginning it was like even before it was al-qaeda it was a magazine. a magazine called the jihadist. then there was a video. the early adopters of whatever isabel. right now most interesting technology is virtual-reality technology. is it relatively possible, relatively soon for a jihadist group, could you people not to come and join the jihad, but you can set up virtual-reality training camps? is that kind of the next wave? >> it certainly is a facet the idea to think about, and just i

have been recently been listening, probably anybody else, to the caliphate podcast, and i can't help but think about it when the episodes talk about the trainees being in a room and the fact that isis had tir detailed diagrams, entry and exit points for particular landmarks around the world. from that point it's not much of a leap to say okay, , and no mae that available in some type of encrypted way to people of virtual reality goggles or ennc rlity gog who can then walk themselves through how did he get into that building and you turn right and you turn left, and as we've seen different terrorism groups take hotels hostages. that doesn't seem that far-fetched come if already the islamic state has diagrams and sort of the floor plans and the

ability to walk people through come walk potential operatives through that. the counter to it is haven't got my mind around that, but the idea of it is vastly. >> i remember when you start looking into revolution muslim and i was very skeptical because i saw people like jesse and i did not jesse personally at the point. i thought these were a bunch of clowns. the islamic society thinkers were moronic statement. they were making a lot of noise in york. we didn't take it seriously, and you are taken to concerts and had to inure. to in you. so what made you think, it was easy to dismiss this group as potentially marginal. you mentioned rosh hashanah, and she was, it's a tragic example of somebody who never met anybody, completely radicalized in her bedroom through the revolution muslim. how did you see this coming?

digest some foresight of the people you are was of the nypd, how did that work? >> i remember those sort of conversations and we were not the only ones to have that with you in terms of what is the real threat of these guys? are they just provocates? are they just sort of fabulous sort of making a lot of noise out there. number one, we had a phenomenal analytic cadre what won't embarrass you get with a few of them here in the audience. >> go ahead. >> maybe after. but they were very keen to look was going around the world, sort of look at it, look at revolution muslim can look at the islamic thinkers society and sort of see how they operated, but also not being part of the washington bureaucracy, not being around since 1947, nypd king to some humility and we said looking we are new to the intelligence world, let's go out and meet with the frenchman fre

british and the germans and the dutch, and meeting with the british and uk intelligence, hearing about what they were saying members of trent what are people who associate with it, seeing thatnd forget that in the u.s. -- al-muhajiroun, and it was sort of okay, this is just a mirror image of that. we haven't seen the people travel overseas to pakistan yet really be on this but it seemed like a one-off. it certainly is possible. maybe the group itself isn't going to commit and attack but it's the people who spent off from it and say all these guys do is demonstrate in times square and make a lot of noise. actual to do something. i want to get in a fight. it's the people who lead those groups are the ones keep an eye on which ended up being very much the case. >> jesse, you mention zachary, just remind the audience, he was, he still in super max right now in fact, but he was inciting violence against the greatest of

south park because of that portrayal of the prophet mohamed. we live in a first and then society. you can see all sorts of things about the prophet mohamed but which can do is incite violence against people, you can't inside violence people might go and do something about it without, basic of the of this. you said something very interesting and candace said something for interesting, with hundreds of people are going to get a prison because we are 20 years -- i mean, people since as a coming up. we haven't seen a large, based on the data we look at at new america, on impact on rights for belgian. the question is, when people come out, jesse, what's your view on this? which is come to some people kind of become more radical in prison as way of sort of a way of protecting themselves emotionally and physically, or

for the people, i was in communication with zac. wrote me a one-page letter when he was in jail. it was fascinating. he said i i liked at my sentenc hearing. i'm much more radical now. i took that to some degree to be part bravado. maybe it's true as well, but how are you going to deal psychologically 20 years in prison when what we become thet on the block. just talk about what you think about what happens when these guys, as it are overwhelmingly guys, , when they get out, what are the problems are going to face, what did you face? what can we do? >> so, i mean, zacharyhess is very interesting case because essentially here you had an individual was forever affluent background, educated at a private school, suddenly gravitates towards jihad-ism can acclimate himself with the revolution and became one of the prolific writers. amant to a degree wherewas

he felt like actions the sister present just speaking. so apartment just threatening the retina south park he tried to travel to join in some of the when he writes 100 page of letters and a red letters as well, let's say i'm n aot psychiatrist but there's indications there's sious narcissism there. this case is different because of these offenders will get out much further down the road, the exception being john walker whose information is come out about the present state of his radicalization. the way we dealt with this with a problematic with regard to communication management and housing most of the terrorist related offenders. we critical nick batum where we assume communication because we're monitoring would not occur. >> explain explained in more det units are. >> taking vacation management units are isolated units for people that have i guess extremist associations are not just a. sometimes environmentalists pick sometimes our right wing

extremists but predominant jihadist. you could give many examples where they're supposed essentially monitored at all of their communication but somehow someway that clearly is not the case. >> and why is that? heegree of the case? why do people put in these units? >> essential if you're to put jihadist across the federal prison system one radical individual can radicalize and a population or the concordant planning with other inmates that are about 20 as happened with only exploit. it's problemic because these individuals, all of the individuals that implementation management units puppy a sentence of seven years. but you in bed with the john walker lindh or zachary is 20 is. one of the biggest propagandist inside the unit was augmented who also pladn outstanding applicable in cases like -- and particularly there was a lot of conversation about the syrian

jihadist and it need it need te cleansed with the proper jihadist ideology. we put them in incubator and echo chamber it's problematic because you experience just basicial psychological effects of further polarizing and further radicalizing. the people, now they've moved away from housing individuals in units and they are now, there was a great chart a couple years ago that showed why giving house. >> the other points. >> yes. i think this is problematic but that's why we need to get something placement because the's risk associated with the charges, to come him and more of an inability not to just marty baron, provide them the support services they need. we are to michigan with people of been released as part of trying to come up with the

methodology into sort of pragmatic program that can help here but the most important aspect is the fact you are unemployable, you are tarnished inside of your society. it would be very easy to hypothesize or speculate that in vegemite come to the realization that there is no future for me, and may revert back to violence. >> where are you at? >> my process is case ipoint. got o i prison in march of 2015, worked very hard to do radicalize and had to do radicalize while i was incarcerated on my own with no formal program. worked with the fbi as and for online and off-line for the time being what i was in relocation to become america's essential first former jihadist. that was a very long process. a process i was outed as informed and this is not what would be the typical case, associated with it in my real-world i could i get regular employment.

i had to work for a union, i found myself digging ditches. it was humiliating but in retrospect i did do well with it and danica think a social servf and i was fired for my identity was revealed. through through a long process g i was a filled with think tanks in d.c. i went public in august of 2016 and it blew up. totally reverted back nebulas and only address the intellectual radicalization i needed to go further. i was not do radicalize, i was just disengaged. >> where are you today? >> today, i am in a much better spot. i finally accepted that have a mental health diagnosis of

bipolar. i take medication. i work with likely i have a pro bono therapist who treats my trauma and i finally been able to talk about some the things i experienced with regard to abuse in early running away in life. so i addressed that component, as difficult as it is, i think a medic could space. writing a memoir which is often because he couldn't touch that part up until very recently. and i think contact with mitch and a process that took to write this paper has been very beneficial. >> tell us about that. >> so with regard to mitch, all of a sudden realize upon margulies, when is released in march 2015 i came up with the methodology to extreme weather not jihadist would believe i have been released due to my cooperation with law enforcement, or due to my appeal process.

i went and made a youtube video et cetera i won my case, that my sense was change and i was free. essentially i don't think anybody ever would have believed that younus would have you radicalize. i was embedded in -- with transeven long story short, he was somebody with a fight as revolution muslim. that was sort of brought to the table with regard to the fact that with -- the charismatic preacher the associated with al-muhajiroun were removed from the plainfield which let an individual who was in adherence to say i can no longer protest, i can no longer express my grievances can make i should just commit an act of violence. in the context of that i appeared in a "new york times" piece discussing the identification, apart from that it was recognized british law forcement community had not also been aware of the

radicalization. for mitch and i as we're watching it was a different experience. it's like this is still a minute of an ideology and an organization that is supposed t be defunct. >> how did you hook up with at? miie meldw you've-- not call. seen what happened, and if you're up to it, you could probably give a very enlightening report that would be beneficial. of course i was open to the idea and witches and started to collaborate, share dress, outlines one of the most amazing things was even though i had destroyed my ability to function in the space when the cable i contacted perndavid and they were willing to have a discussion with the new america. i mentioned mitch had called and we started to talk about possibly working on this paper. it was the process of that unfolding through david's excellence editing and process of making sure the paper included what needed to be included.

>> did you disagree about things? >> mitch, maybe? >> it's surprising how much we've been in agreement. this is, for me this is jt i never thought the project would go or we are, of your later in the sense that we really were adversaries. the team of analysts and myself, nypd and under covers. i mean, jesse was a marked man for us. judas mohamed, , he was the bogeyman. not only were all these people wanted to fly to small you or afghanistan or pakistan. there he was dancing on the first amendment line in a w at for five years we could nail him. >> columbia, was that kind of a commonality? >> different times. >> did you overlap? >> we did not.

did not. but maybe that made us worthy adversaries, i don't know. we have not appeared in the marketing material yet so jesse was a challenge for us from the characters and intelligence template. we happen to have undercover and if almost two minutes of well-placed online, human assets. we knew what they were doing but nevertheless, jesse was still propagandizing and radicalizing and recruiting people to mobilize towards violence. and, frankly, my belief is if it had not been for what i believe is his mistake, i'm not sure how the story changes it because it was really, come and just attorneys offices in new york did want to touch the case. they said freedom of speech. there was only when zachary chesser crossed the line and the specificity of this threat at

the south park creators, what was allowed the gordon kolber, the prosecutor to be out there on a line is a listen, i think we can prosecute this. everything fell into place under. >> dig into that. in the united kingdom inside racial hatred is a private interview, holocaust din of his crank it you continue much about anybody in this country. what was the line that revolution muslim crossed? specifically what he did that made the difference? >> so i guess the first amendment law does allow to anything you want to listen directly calls for or provides an access to attack to our individuals. the ultimate charge was communicating a threat, and what chesser covfefe is he posted a picture of theo van gogh who is skilled

in amsterdam dead on the street with a knife at his back. he said the south park were ultimately end up like speedy remind who van gogh is. >> an individual who made a video that was deemed to be inappropriate or defamatory against muslims, particularly muslim women. a moroccan in amsterdam found t have had access him and sort of took it upon himself to attack him on a bicycle in the street and killed in cold blood in the middle of the street. so this was a reference or threat but that alone was not even sufficient to make it the community of it. what chesser did was he felt up not just by predicting that would be harmed but justifying why the could be harmed under an islamic theological argument and then posting the addresses that might or might not be where they were located. so this is where entered into the realm of communication of the threat. >> specificity of an address. >> i think that mark in the event itself was adopted because

one of the key people have migrated to join isis and had tech skills were very, very keen, the names and addresses of officials and very effective means of sort of intimidatg even though the attacker might not be likely of the problem of that happening maybe almost miniscule. it's still an effective means of propaganda to show that had this cyberspace capabilities and ability to locate people. >> if you have a question, raise your hand, wait for the mic and identify yourself, please. the gentleman here in front. just wait for the mic, if there is a mic. >> thank you very much. faceting. alexander from insight. maybe i'll address the question to jesse. it, let's say you were the cnn

version of online jihad-ism when wh was a fox, you know, thetion, anti? who are y competitors, the ones online that had, you know, anti-radicalization presents? mraps speedy i'm not sure i like this comparis [laughing] >> abc, cbs. the navy to mitch, this is going to be obviously from what discussion, ongoing problem, or to both. what can be done online in terms to counter? >> so if you were to consider revolution efforts seen cnn ane sort of fox opposition and the radicalization message a fox news, or separate entity, it's

an important point you make use of the time there was no such thing as cve, countering violent extremism. written they had programs but here the american muslim committee leadership chose not to give it a tension filled to not amplify our voices. that's when no criticism started that muslims in america are unwilling to denounce radicalism. it happened sometimes. a publication was great for arteries because it came from a different reference switches showed wilberforce and a pro-british event and basically hypocrite, refuted his argument from own perspective come same thing happened with others. they backed off. there really wasn't much of a counter voice. the greatest amplifier was the far right extremist and we will do it. the cofounder was designated come like he records in a transcript, he says younus

abdullah muhammad, introduced me to faisal shahzad. we are walking down the street when did he says i want to his or position called revolution muslim. what glad to offer you? he said you a cla that's great. just be the klan. that was more effective anything younus abdullah muhammad did. if you want to get a fox nursing and just have him going into provocative step in the right wing blogs and pick it up into to further polarization and that's exactly what we want to do. it wasn't until people started to develop ideas of counter violent extremism in 2011, barack obama, strategic plan but by that time there was a lot of support. it wavered with the car t of the rotation if anyone content. so there wasn't much of an opposing force, not one that would engages directly for fear they would amplify our voice. we went on cnn, the muslims came

out with a suggestion this station was required to get ratings in the mainstream media. we would manipulate it and they were not showing enough positive. so that was one thing and a think we learned a lot from that at the time from then, but it's important. >> how to react to the argument that isis has a fair amount to do with islam? i'm summarizing the argument but what do you make of that. >> was he sent isis is not islamic. it's very islamic essentially. it caused a lot of controversy. i think it's unnecessary controversy. i think all have their interpretations and of interpretation of religion should be considered valid regardless of how irrational it is. i think isis ideologyndir adherence even worse than al-qaeda is a strength of religion the need to be addressed and understood, is this ability, use the

downplaying and the case like omar mateen goes at a nightclub, the pulse nightclubnd calls 9/11 operator, pledges his allegiance, it's revenge for higher-level operative that's been killed. he seeks massive matter parenthesis at nothing to do with ideology at all. until the transcripts were released, it was his homophobia. other come of it was because he was a latent or an outright homosexual. i think he is correct to say that that's what this represents come very islamic interpretation. interpretation. because the revert to text more so than 90% of the modern, it's the way they skewed the text and to cut a check to understand the nuances of the ideal to get this working make mistakes a mainstream. don't miss are not that basis is it your understanding of that is

needed in order to refute the ideology. not saying that realizations i came to was i thought it was all ideology and an objective assessment of one to find the truth but i realized it had a lot more to do with personal issues. ideology is what transitions you from hearing to radical ideas and acting upon them. i think would is correct. >> i'm not totally convinced actually that is correct. i think you raise the couple important issues. first, there's a very deep theological debate going on in the muslim community here in the united states, also abroad, around whether you are talking about isis or daesh. i think this divide, even in my own work in writing about isis i rarely referred isis as i said because i don't subrio the idea tha etasr a legitimate caliphate or ever a legitimate government. that's not with representatives essentially sort of a cooked up version of tyranny with a lot of

trappings that were very attractive to people. that debate is a very important one in the sense i think the muslim community here is not prolific him has a lot of debate rnally about where they sit with regard to the legitimacy of some of the argumentation, the theological debates are very, very real, but it think the other pieces you have rember even prior to 9/11 9/11 there s always an anti-muslim cast to a lot of the way we talk about the muslim community here. but afterwards became even more virulent comments on the i think the arab spring unleashed new torrent of debates around where does muslim community really sit inside the united states. in the meantime of course we know very well from coverage of the nypd case in court on racial

profiling, religious profiling as it were, that this is a very real concern, that there's a line around freedom of speech and protection from undue search and seizure. all of the speeches are blended in in the u. context, hard to adore, very hard to ignore but even more hard to i think the muslim community feels profiled, feels that it doesn't have a space and that it is assumed to be monolithic and, therefore, can be profiled in some way or another. there's a real twist that i think in the u.s. case there's a wrestling but there are some parallels i think in belgium in particular and in france. belgium is a very special case. i know this personally having lived there for a long time, where you have linguistic lines and even along religious lines, and i don't know actually in

that case that may be the more dire case than even the united states for france in terms of how to grapple with efficient muslim identity in the european context. and what that means for the muslim community who are sorted in a situation what if they take ownership of jihad and jihadi debates, then they are responsible for everything. and i don't know if the law enforcement commutyas grapple with it. mitch, you would probably be in a a better position to speak to that. >> in terms of a political role towards the muslim committee? >> i think and use it is really early days, i was in belgium two weeks ago and this was explained to me that in the brussels state legislature, or the political division, 25% of the legislature is muslim. so, i mean, in the u.s. where we got one or two people here and there so she was not even registering on skill but imagine

that will require some adjustment. but i think something that is click on the bottom side of the uk, head of the home offices muslim. london's mayor is muslim. it's got to be the best argument to rebut the idea that there is no pathway forward for muslim in uk that, wait a second, you can be home music of you can be the mayor of london, and that level of achievement and participation in society is ultimately a good thing because that's the best counter narrative there is, i think. nessarily the political role not of american muslims from muslims in europe that's overly important. one of the greatest things is that entertainment, sports. politics of decision politics from anybody he was been remotely radicalize, one of the first things is democracy is sure or policyism.

essentially participation in democracy. it's one of the earliest lessons very easily dissonant in one way, shape, or form or another so it's not just jihadist. even your more progressive denounce any participation of politics. showing someone who is success with regard to the responses in britain, people use kickboxing as means of you radicalize initiatives. .. the very big thing he's done, if you are a woman in the case, you can retain your kids without going to court. this is a new thing that's way

ahead of most arab states. how big a deal is it that he's doing things most liberals would find abhorrent but he's also done a lot of big things on this religious issue. to what extent do you see these ideas as being part of your radicalization what you see these ideas as being part of the problem inorkew city, and if the saudi is able to put this toothpaste back in the toothpaste holder, is that a big deal or not? >> so i don't think it's going to be effective in preventing radicalization because i think essentially at this point, the reinterpretation of the, i don't think it's a genie that can but put back in the bottle.

ethical proved to be more counterproductive than he was effective in attempting to do so. i wrote a piece that says basically there's a coming war between the crown prince. [inaudible] the son of osama bin laden is propaganda against this in order to counter and encounter the idea. they've allowed a ten year contract. [inaudible] that framework is important. a lot of time what's missing in conversation about fundamentalism is that saudi's ntn be the biggest det from jihad is on. their narrative is incredibly powerful. you might like to think of it as maybe they can influence radicalization but they should

play a role in this engagement. i'm not so sure removing that would do anything. it's like a previous movement where they try to modernize society and a lot of american troops occupied themselves on the arabian peninsula and this really induced transition into accepting the idea that the foreign drop was most appropriate to criticizing the king and denouncing him and authorizing rebellion against him and transitioning into making his population or his audience aware that because they partnered with the americans there would be no way that we could overthrow saudi arabia unless of course the americans were reduced to not playing the role of global imperiouimperialists. >> clearly, from the new york perspective the two often intermingled those were sort

of embodying the idea were not sophisticated enough to rencestand diffe they existed. i think that toothpaste is out the te. i there's enough material online,ublished that can be taken off the field, and for those who are interested in that, that is something they can justn sort of metabolize and use to justify political actions they may have with their religious veneer and legitimacy to i may be a little bit more pel, but on the ideological standpoint i think too much is already out there, at lst in the short and medium range. >> other questions? >> the gentleman here.

>> my question is mostly to jesse. you mentioned the mediums you used to transmit your message, facebook,wi whatever. my question is more about the means you used to propagate it. are you waiting for people to spread for you or are you doing outreach to message to other groups. >> i think that's a very important point. anyone with an interest in us, to give and satisfy their need to be embedded in our network we would give them a position. people are assigned just to share information on facebook and youtube. not only did that allow our message to resonate and spread many times over and over but it gave people the idea that they were part of our movement. we deliberately rea recruited females from britain who were living off the welfare state. why would we do that? because men love women and by making it aware that women were participating in much the

same manner that isis does today, we were able to say this is about everyone. women have a role to play as well. was the ability to insert everybody into active engagement. it was a decentralized movement. >> by the way, on wednesday at noon we have the head of global content policy speaking here for facebook and she's the head of global content and basically counterterrorism is a huge part. how would you assess the job that facebook has done in countering these kind of messages. >> better than youtu and the takedown approach so i think whoever is involved with facebook's headquarters has some more innovative. >> actually it's brian who runs the counterterrorism unit.

>> i was born inul a i get my education in mosul. what i learned about religion, what isis is teaching, also in the summer when i went to the mosque to learn about villages, same thing. i learned what isis is now teaching because of that it was no surprise f me, isis occupation in mosul. most the people in mosul actually welcomed isis and i was, at that time, working withrganization, we did focus group but actually for the first weeks the equation, we did this, fox group with young people, some of them i

still. [inaudible] this is first time leaving under islamic state. now because of myor every day i'm facing people who post on social media, it's post that similar isis idea. when i engage with them and say do you believe in isis, they are unsure, they know isis is a terroristic group. my question for all of you, how should we stop these ideas because i believe if we don't stop these ideas, isis will repeat and it will happen again everywhere and every time in this history. thank you. >> i asked grow quick, what years? i don't know wha how old you

are but can i ask what time frame. >> i was born in 1978. okay. so coinciding with the transition to the world that we live in particularlyhe military there was and also coincided to the rapid promotion by the saudi government. these things are trickling in all over the world and becoming the dominant framework in which to interpret religion but i don't think it's just about the ideas. catherine says, and i think she's corre te don't just counter t ideogy or breakup the network but understand that it has become a social movement and the way it pulls its resources is to make a base and formulate relationships with basic sunni community and when you live in a situation like in mosul where you had the control of

the government, the military personnel may have been sunni but that probably explains why there was very little sistance when isis marched. i don't think it's just about the ideology. i think it can be countered at the same time that we think in terms of addressing the issues. there is a serious red of democracy. one of the papers that was recently. published shows that in some places it can be about social economic variables wherein other places its political drivers. from the other point i think what you see now is what social movements call. [inaudible] it was so barbaric that people accept organizations and i think you'll see increasing resurrections of these

groups. al qaeda became a brand, o corporations with an option to franchise model. competition is good in any way you want to experiment and innovate alongside every terrorists organization. the benefit now is that general population may be very frustrated with this message. they may be more willing to accept a more jihadist narrativ narrative. they may denounce isis altogether but still adhere to the ideology and that prevents a serious barrier that has to be dealt with. >> holistic is very difficult. yo out that sial movement is real, it's growing , it's virulent, et cetera but the black elephant in the room is big and it's poor

governance. what we know about iraq, what we know about syria is people turn to religion often for ideas about social justice when there is deep inequality, when the security forces and apparatus are targeted, targeting populations that are underclass, when there's deep corruption in the government so of course there's this rate temptation to talk about grievance in the abstract, but it's important to understand that one of the biggest investments that we are bound to make is in regrowing and reconstructing government increases in such a way that there's much less appeal in some of the other arguments. >> this next.may prove to be impossible and it's a key

point and i'm not going to venture into discourse on how too do that but i think we can recognize how the ideology and people turn toward religion largely in consequence of underlying, there are ways we can deal with that. i don't know if current policy is trending in that direction. i think it's a good idea to stay in syria and have a true presence but in the same way that we train military leaders and operatives in the field, they think there's conversations that can improve awareness. they can understand the importance of giving people freedom and it's okay to do so. the power structure doesn't have to concern itself as long as there providing effective governance to the people. because isis was able to elect trash and as an individual i know how big a problem that

is, they were welcomed by a large number of people. at the end of the day governance is important. >> returning to the question at the beginning about trying to detect people were radical. ve few people become violent so there would be lots of legal impediments to using ai to sort of look at people and say who is likely to radicalize. i don't think, i'm curious about your view. i don't think it's a useful tool unless you want a totalitarian state and start assessing, over time i think you could do a good assessmt on this issue. >> i'm not sure that facebook and youtube aren't doing this, i think in fact they are an self-regulatory manner. at the nypd we were doing it

manually. we had an analyst who had figured out what is the online model. we knew i what in person radicalization looked like. when he was a kid in queens before you became who he became, w can sort of see steps and visible tells that they changed their name but they were talking about, and you could see it in the manual. there's no doubt it can be done in terms of seeing someone change over time. the question is, what's the point of intervention? is the information available open source or is it something that's behind some type of privacy setting? think that's maybe where the legal pardons. very clearly when he was a student at london at ucl. >> and there would be no legal and pediment. we just have a lot of cases, suddenly maybe you had 10000

cases that you apply ai two. there would be no legal impediments you doing that. >> if someone was showing this as part of their profile that was visible, if it wasn't behind your privacy setting, theoretically there shouldn't be a legal barrier to do it because you're allowing them. >> as a law-enforcement official it's very useful for you to rest people. we always think about it as being this great radicalize of it also it's useful from law-enforcement perspective because people are dumb on social media and say dumb things which indicate what they're thinking. maybe they're getting smarter now. >> there was an evolution where it used to be. [inaudible] that was for a short period of time after 911 when they realize that probably wasn't the smartest place to be at conspirator. then it moves online and became virtual and it became

that medium where individuals could talk and interact and that was an area where people repeated participation and might change over time. so yes, there was an element of exploitation. i left the nypd in 2012 but i imagine now it's probably the primary place that leads are coming from. what people are presenting themselves on social media. what are they putting up the black flag on their facebook page. it may be worth a second look. >> other questions. >> okay. david, last one since david was instrumental in making this paper happened. >> thank you. so my question revolves around come in the report you do a great job on the tactic and also on sort of showing this consistent goal of an islamic

state or caliphate in some form, obviously big differences in whathat means going back decades. i'm wondering what was your strategic vision of how what you are doing tactically on social media would contribute to getting to the caliphate? relatedly, did you see yourself as having a strategy or were you just identifying and encouraging others to identify with those who had more knowledge of the strategy but for you it might've been more about signaling solidarity or living up to a religious value. >> thank you. >> very quickly, i think at the time we launched, physically like peter said, largely because of this idea that there was this american exception that there are these variables that they would be receptive to the message but we knew very early on that

there was an interest and in subsequent years there was proof of that. essentially we had the same ideology of al qaeda at the time and we were actually abiding by the dictate which is essentially that al qaeda needed to become an idea and everyone everywhere had an obligation to disseminate because of their ability to fight in the field. i don't think our message was that different but we translated it into an american way. the way that we did that as we made it very provocative. we had a very different approach. we would literally scream at the community every friday and then we had a piece of literature we called a radical review. it was incredibly good propaganda and through our use of public persona, we just an american type stuff that was loony but it's great when you look at a world that's predominated by text videos on

youtube. >> thank you very much mitch for the brilliant presentation. thank you for the brilliant discussion. please rdaper and give them a big round of applause. [applause] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]

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[inaudible conversations] >> congress returns this week from its memorial day holiday. the senate is back today at 3:00 p.m. eastern to debate judicial nominations. the house will meet tomorrow to work on its first federal spending bills for energy and

better and affairs. they will also work on legislation on water infrastructure projects. >> tonight author and gun holbrook talks about the second amendment. he successfully argued three gun l supreme court. you can watch this at 8:30 p.m. eastern on c-span2, online at cspan.org or with the free c-span radio app. >> all right. >> earlier today the u.s. supreme court ruled in the case of masterpiece cake shop versus colorado civil rights commission. the state where a same-sex lack couple sued a bakery for refusing to make their wedding cake. the court ruled 7 - 2 in favor of the cake shop. there are remarks from the attorney representing