questions from the audience. it runs about 90 minutes. >> i run the international security program. thanks for coming this afternoon and for those on c-span that are watching today. this is the paper from revolution muslim to the islamic state was cowritten by an investment banker on 9/11 and saw the planes crash of the towers and decided to do something different with his

wife which is go to columbia and middle eastern studies and after that, he joined the police department and one of the most important targets that he had was. so they will talk about the big themes and ideas in the report and then the senior fellow at the new america and professor of practice at arizona state university would resolve the efforts and is a valued colleague of ours here then we will open up to a wider conversation.

good afternoon, everyone. rst i would like to thank new america and peter for not only hosting us today but the approach about the i of the paper written by a former extremist and former counterterrorism official who is willing to back and support the sort of unconventional request, so i appreciate your willingness to go along with it and new america who is a tremendous editor and resource as we advance our efforts and i thin writing this paper. we are here on june 4 because the impetus of the paper and the collaboration between jesse and myself triggered a year ago yesterday and what that was was

there was an attack on one of london bridge where three individuals in a van drove the van on a bridge locking people into the river, jued out of the van wearing fake suicide vests and had ceramic knives and then proceeded to enter the market attacking people. they injured 48 and killed five before they were subdued. what attracted my attention beyond the horror of this attack and they did it in the name of the islamic state not operationally controlled, but the leader of the group and the individuals who was a member of the group that is well known in the uk and an islamist group that has gone to great attention to their provocative demonstrations in the uk they

often talked about the caliphate over downing street over the parliament, but more importantly, at the very is times as many as 30% at the triggered as an analyst as many as 50% of the suspect at some point in time passed through. why is that of interest to me? there was the revolution muslim that was run and this was essentially a spinoff. inside the new york city police department, we looked at as many as 15 different cases come individuals in the united states and overseas by following the revolution muslims either actively interacting or

passively by observing what they were doing and you see right there with interesting and what struck me is thi if this had beg on since 2001 with an individual who wireless was still smoldering after 9/11, that's all he left new yor had left nes gone to the military academy, was athet. john's pharmacy school to go essentially to be the first post-9/11 foreign fighter and what the group had hen. the affiliate was still causing death and destruction around the world and the elements of the

story hadn't been told and in thinking about writing this the individual would have been at the heart of the group in new york. so i reached out jesse and he was interested and i want to thank him for his h work i couldn't have done this without him. now he didn't actually see action in afghanistan and pakistan, but he did provide material sleeping bags, night vision goggles to al qaeda and in fact he participated in the training camp in 2004 where some of the bombers as well as a member in the uk were involve. ..

>> and thinking about a relution especially that resolution is low and was responsible for the 15 different individuals around the world many of you have

heard often not understood the connection was to the revolution muslim but active means thewere interacting in the revolution muslim to talk about should i do this? should i travel abroad? he helped to radicalize them and then was much more passive son wanted to travel overseas and those will new jersey you wanted to join in the mall yet. then there was the one slipped under the department in new york city before he left for yemen. but not only the foreign fighters but the individual

who tried to build a kitchen and then to attack the subway system with it. and then individual who wanted to fly a drone into the peag and with an interactive relationship but not only of the u.s. you offer has individuals in the u.k. would plot against seo then stock exchange so it all comes back to revolution muslim and now jesse morton

from nypd this is who we knew demonstrating in new york city in times square. may 1, 2010 that you may remember the day they moved his vehicle into times square to explode it nothing to do with jesse morton in particular but he was there doing his don -- demonstration and also with the nypd the undercover informant and digital undercover's that is on the policy side of it but now we will just handed over to jesse morton.

>> thank you. the primary complaint when we split the society was that they did not recognize the growing inuence of the internet and number two to unabashedly support and endorse al qaeda publicly so we differed in that so for them demonstration and real-world activity was from not calling for the reestablishment but for us it was a mean to run parallel to the education associated with the nationstate. sue can say those efforts we engaged in were the virtual

caliphate. we would shoot everything that we did and training and working in the backyard with the question and answers and we shot everything we did with the whole counter cultural perception to our followers that the online equity chamber we created is not just about the ideology but putting those ideas that we were disseminating into practice. so the important rentable we utilized so when ahmadinejad came to campus while he was there in new york city he was there for an event.

and to be the dean of the american institute but by midafternoon and the protesters and then it appears in the new york post that we had very quickly the power to create controversy so one of the primary agendas that we do see that has been woven into today. but every time he has loads wanted to esthaa law they had to have evidence we benefited from that and the other side benefited as well.

our online activity was supported so that is the manner we radicalize you online first then in the field maly that is what distinguished us. one of the other things that was very important for us was to relate the mainstream media wasn't what was going on but the effort to be controversial so the media would cover you. we were frequently covered on outlets such as fox news and cnn we were constantly covered as the group that was very small but the way they covered us made us look larger than we were for the followers we looked like legitimate activist also anti- american

outlet that also gave us including public television talk shows and we were discussing those issues and that solidified the notion we were a legitimate movement and also major means of recruiting. so the efforts so the efforts social media 2.0 there was a major transition from the internet discussion forums and website from the jihadist ideology w disseminated and we were migrating at the time. in early 2008 from the cleric in jamaica said we could be on a show called religious hard

talk so a segment of that shows him telling a cleric that jesus himself preached jihadist asking the clerk to look up a piece of evidence one segment of that allegory that he was essentially humiliated it is very interesting i'll get the visual --dash digital imaging software wh e ybe cp because recently to be released from incarceration in britain that went viral modest viral and we realize very quickly the power of social media. so this was the start of which grew in popularity of our efforts now it violates the terms of service agreements it

cannot be taken down or hasn't been there millions of use over 5 million with all the times it's been crossposted so it was powerful because g.i. jane was covered and was influenced by that and that is what set off the idea we were transitioning away from a concern of attacks plotted and planned from overseas more into the lone wolf style threat to the homeland. so one she was covered the youtube channel essentially then we made that transition that jihadist becoming as american as apple pie and british as afternoon tea in this was case after case for example a case one who stabbed

a british member ofarliament at a college campus in 2000 doing an interview with law enforcement agencies the two primary means of radicalization was social media 2.0 so this continue to happen time and time again where the internet would facilitate a radicalization into actual action from violent extremist. so that perpetual entitlement said the revolution muslim use those slideshows with facebook and twitter probably the first english language organization to access all social media sites transitioning into becoming the primary source for those online forms.

the other template setting effort was the design of the very first english language magazine one of the key connections that went to join but before he left he started jihadist recollection it was authorized and i wrote the lead article for the very first edition it only went for issues but as you compare those that were inspired it is almost identical it had not changed both the design and very much in content. it also is interesting to consider that revolution that

is a very first ti to have this opportunity to become a virtual plotter so now they are embedded with jihadist overseas so now to have those experience in those home countries so that propaganda was not so much an import to the wtvery much and export in american-style with those terrorist organizations overseas. this is the image of the program and then to set up the scholar to preach with those influential preachers such as myself to coordinate and discuss those religious principles and our administrators are mostly

female what type of notes to the students in the room so the listeners could chat during the discussion than they can ask questions from the preachers and for those that had an interest in donating or contributing to the movement to ask more questions were engaging in more discourse they would be screened into the platform. this is not at all unlike the way that the telegram they are using telegrams today. to facilitate the discourse in the closed rooms that migrating through cryptic channels so it is not that much different. then to develop its own radicalization efforts that is one of the claims we make

there is a lot that could be discussed with regard to that and one of the key concepts my co-conspirator for those who were portraying so he utilize the term and then the following month the riders of south park that caused a lot of controversy to the point a woman in washington that led indonesia and pakistan and an opportunistic moment with that first edition coming from al qaeda in the arabian peninsula and that included a fought law for the woman to have anybody

who had that picture to be assassinated and that is included in the article that mitch referenced a recipe used up until today outside of the arabian insula just watch the telegram channel it is been well viewed the very first thing the very first edition is in the english language edition so basically inspire jihadist allowing him to train at home versus risking travel abroad to the same manner five days later of the death they transition to english language magazine and immediately there was a section of that but it was a replication. and finally the threat will

increasingly resemble that post you can see a few of the slides on the screenhowing examples ofports picking up the template for radicalization basically translating the content that they are finding but doing it in the english language to maintain so then what al qaeda did in the aftermath and also people assumed that threat was diminished another said those messages we should endorse it so during this tim al qaeda

and groups like the islamic state became an idea and waiting patiently and ultimately trying to bankrupt us. meanwhile, was -- revolution muslim shutdown after my arrest for that collaboration but there went on for recruitment there and while there was no caliphate was still the dissemination of the ideology that is what really made a lot of westerners were indoctrinated talk to the announcement that the television had been resurrte today there is an opportunity to discuss recruitment but in order to go further to attack the idea we

have to understand the methodology and that is the reason we wrote this because it is a historical progression. a big social media apparatus and the ability to tap into the mainstream coverage it was assumed that this was something new and i think one interesting quotation to develop a very famous model was a wave of terrorism and is started in 197 with the 20 or 30 years but to say that wave of terrorism is from the organization that they have very different life rhythms one appears before the initial

wave but when it cannot inspire new organizations the resistance and changes in the peeption are the critical factors so as a virtual caliphate by supporters addresng those variables ending the war on terror so with the territorial loss and the terrorist attacks let's not lead us to complacency that is what's a pattern has done in the post 911 era and from revolution muslims and then they coincide with other geopolitical situations and then i pulled out of iraq with the engagement of the middle east and at the same time failed to implement the counter violent extremism.

so the revolution template and ideology and methodology may have evolved but it is still hardly different so we need to understand it so i think this helps to focus on the new ideas and also better untanding with the template so those images associated with revolution could not resurrect themselves and there were a lot of examples. thank you very much afford to the discussion. >> obviously this is a big deal to put this together it takes a lot of courage and a lot of patience and perseverance to untangle all

the strands. but for me the most striking part of the paper the things that stand out at the tactical level that the first is how quickly the twitter verse has mushroomed with all of the variations of the jihadist er the last decade. but even more striking is the classic struggle between the bureaucracy and innovation in the story of all security threats. so something with the nypd to clearly show that it wanted to innovate by taking on recruits

who could get out there and collect information and communities but it turns out those english acres and another lesson learned for bureaucracy that innovation comes in small packages. and on the policy side obviously the discussion has been very dominated by these concerns with thisecury around the homegrown jihadist and then to show up online so what this demonstrates is especially if there is that unwillingness to engage with the key issues the potential for radicalization and then to

have a free intervention methodology that is a fundamental challenge and with the psychological assessment tools and those i could speak to that much better than i but think the paper points out what they can do to handle the problem that seems like a relatively small group of people but actually it is quite large and quite pronounced and there were some pretty severe policy implications going forward now that the isis core has been diminished were editorially

speaking and they may look back but there is a challenge around the homegrown terrorist to return back to come back with port passports who were not detected. i don't know how big that threat is. it certainly did bureaucracy is not quite aware of that but with the bureaucracy at talk about the combined bureaucracy of homeland security at the state department and others in national security apparatus. so is that the typical response? but in the relatively unintentional or unfocused manner? but there are some lessons to be learned that we talked a little bit the fact tha

u.k. example the scandinavian example presents an opportunity certainly for the united states to learn how t deal with iraq cancer. it also to create opportunities for those who ar exiting and to reintegrate. that is the other challenge that is the return and how difficult that is what a lot people not just the former jihadist or gang members they all struggle with the same thing which is the social safety net for those who were incarcerated and in fact i think our system generally we

acknowledge more than embraces the punishment continues long after with healthcare you are deprived of basics transitioning back into the social full. those are the really big issues that we allude tin the report but most importantly it struggles to grapple with this problem but there is still a huge off-line problem with foreign fighters as well as the reintegration process which is critical because as we can see with other instances those who decide to leave the fight can be very constructive to manage

that process to become resources for those who were getting out. >> what's interesting again is the predictions of the future. but let's try. because the point of the paper is absolutely true or it is a template but that became the aces template. so the nature of the middle will b called but they could think up and be a lot of different ways but it is a template. but the question is what will it do?

let's assume they cannot take over the territory the size of the united kingdom but one area is one idea which is these groups have always taken the latest technology and from the beginning it was a magazine called jihadist. so what was available as a virtual reality thnology so is it possible for the jihadist group to set up a virtual reality training camp? is that the next wave? >> that is a fascinating idea

to think about and rectly to the caliphate the podcast but i can't help but think one of those episodes that talk about the chain -- the chinese with a detailed diagrams for a particular landmark around the world. it isn't much of the lead but then to make that available in the encrypted way and then can walk himself through. if you turn right or you turn le with the terrorism groups with hotels and hostages that seems a little far-fetched already with the 41 -- the

floor plan and all have our mind around tt but it is fascinating. >> and i was very skeptical because these are a bunch of clowns the islamic thinking society were a bunch of great th and making noise but that you were paid to take it seriously. so what made you think? and you mentioned rosh hashanah it is a classic example of someone who never met anybody completely ratifies in her bedroom and

then to have some foresight? and how does that work? i can remember those conversations you are not the only one but they are fabulous making a lot of noise out there but the number one phenomenon there are a few in the audience today. [laughter] but to look at what is going on around the world to islamic thinking society see how they operated and also not part of the washington bureaucracy.

and then to meet with the british and the french and with the u.k. intelligence to hear about those that were associated with it to look to the u.s. and then to say okay this is just the mere image to see people travel overseas it seems like a one but it is possible maybe the group itself but it is the people that spin off to say if i did have to demonstrate in times square and make noise and want to do something and the people that leave those groups are the ones to keep an eye on the max ou mentioned factory just remind the audience, he is in super max right now but he had

the betrayal of the prophet mohammed you could say all sorts of things that what you can't do is sidebar against those who might actually do something so i found very very interesting that we have hundreds of people over the next 20 years people sentences are coming up we actually haven't seen a large issue here in america unlike in france or belgium there isn't that much radicalization we have seen because when people come out what is your view? do they become more radical than prison as a way of protecting themselves emotionally?

or for those peoplend it was fascinatg he said i am much more radical now and to some of that is bravado. maybe it is true but how do you deal psychologically with 20 years in prison? so the talk about what happens when these guys get out, what do they face? what did you face? what can we do? >> that is a very interesting se youave an individual form with the affluent background educated private school then gravitates towards jihadist and was a prolific writer but rather adamant to a

degree he felt action was necessary rather than just speaking so he tried to travel to somalia i have read letters from him but just to say there indications of serious messages but those serious fenders to go much further down the road with the exception of like john walker and the way we have dealt with that is very problematic with the communication management because essentially re-created the echo chamber we assumed it would be monitoring and would not occur. but the isolated unit are those that i guess extremist affiliation sometimes

environmentalist but predominantly jihadist. there are many examples they are supposed to be monitored but somehow someway clearly it isn't. >> and what is that? what is the theory? >> thedea if you were across the federal prison system of adequate visual could radicalize the entire population but i think it is problematic because a lot of the individuals that are in communication probably have a sentence of seven years just like john walker lynn part of the biggest propaganda and they also played a role in those cases there is a lot of

coersation and then to come out of prison. so when you put in the income -- incubator in the chamber it is basic social psychological further radicalizing individual. but coming home typically now they moved away now they show them clearinghouse so i do think it is problematic that that is why it takes placeow there is les risk associated not just to monitor them but provide the services and communicate to uplift the

methodology with the pragmatic program with the most important aspect is you are trying to it would be very easy to hypothesize and speculate that there is no future for me. and then go back to violence. my process is i got out of prison march 2015 i worked very hard to do radicalize a mild live no formal program and then basically become america's first former jihadist. that was a very long process and certainly that is the typical case but i could not

get regular employment i have a degreero columbia university was humiliating but in retrospect it was well worth it that i got a social services job and was fired when my identity was revealed. but then i went public and then it blew up and then i didn't realize that i needed to go further with my radicalization actually i disengaged an went to free radicalization was the first time in 14 years also with the incarceration today i

finally accepted i have bipolar disorder and to take medication i have a pro bono therapist to treat my trauma and i finally can talk my experience so i address that and early running away in life that is difficult as it is and is written in the memoir style which is very healthy. and i think contact with mitch in the process it took to write the paper has been very beneficial. >> tell us about that all of a sudden i realized when i was released he actually came up with the methodology to see if i was released with cooperation due to law enforcement or my appeal

process. some said i won my case my sentence was changed essentially idle think anybody would have beliedhat. t so i was immediately embedded and long story short, the president was there and identified that was brought to the table with regard to the fact is also very close to what could happen that the individual said i can no longer express my grievances that may or may not have played a role that in that piece to discuss that identification and it recognized the british law enforcement community that it

was a different experience of the ideology. >> how did you hook uph them? he e-mailed to see what has happened if you are up to it we could probably do a report that would be beneficial and of course i was open to the idea we just order to collaborate. one of the most amazing things was even though i destroyed my ability to function the space they were willing to have a discussion with me at new america and we started to work on this paper. it was the processes that through his editing advice

that this included what needed to be. >> to you disag? be back i think it is surprising how much we have been in agreement. [laughter] but for me, i never thought the politics is where we are one year later with the fact really we were adversaries with a team of analysts and the undercover's, guess he was the bogeyman. not onlyng ttifly to somalia and pakistan put there he was dancing on the first amendment line in a way that in five years we could not nail him. >> so was that the commonality?

>> maybe it made us worthy adversaries. but jesse was a challenge for us to counter chair is tremendously well-placed and online they knew what they were doing but nevertheless he was still radicalizing to mobilize toward violence and frankly i am nosure of these changes because u.s. attorneys did not want to touch the case

and with that specificity of threat but theno be out e online be out there online that you can say anything pretty much about anybody so specifically what was it that he did made the difference? >> so i guess first of all guess you could say anything want to directly calls for attacks to harm an individual so my probation charge was communicating a threat so he posted a picture with a knife

in his back. so the south park riders would end up. >> so there was a video deemed to be inappropriate and inflammatory against muslims and then they found out so this was a clear reference. what would be followed up not just predicting that ability but to justify why they could be harmed with the argument that might or might not be located so that is a realm of communicatio communication.

>> one of the key people that migratedas very to post the names of officials and to be intimidating and the possibility could happen but soon it is propaganda to show you how the cyberspace capability and can locate people. >> please identify yourself. >> thank you very much it is fascinating and maybe i will address the question to

jesse. if you were the cnn version of online jihadist, who was fox news? or your anti- or your competitors or those and perhaps the question. [laughter] or abc and cbs. >> and then from the discussion this is an ongoing problem. so what can be done online? to counter i think this is a

very important point that you make with counter violent extremism. here the american muslim communities show not and that is one of the whole criticisms that america is willing to denounce the terrorist groups and it happened several times with this publication it was great for the audience and the pro- british event and basically with the theological arguments and theyacked off. then to say their sending

transcripts within introduced me in and walking down the street and that he says i want to start an organization you have the ivy league education i said you are a clown that's great just be a clown that was more effective than anything all you had to do was give them a system the wings would block it and that is exactly how i wanted but not until people started to develop violent extremism 2011 with the strategic implementation plan but by that time it wavered depending on content. there wasn't much of the opposing voice especially to amplify our voice and then in the interview i said that this

just to come out to suggest that but they were not showing and now i am summarizing tha. >> to be very islamic essentially. it caused a lot of ctr. it was unnecessary with the interpretation of religion i think the ideology is even worse than al qaeda which is a strand of religion that needs to be addressed and understood

the ability to downplay of those going into a nightclub and calls in one monut th ao s a higher-level operative then you see a massive amount of reporting until the transcripts could feed the phobia. but some say he is not right homosexual but that is absolutely correct to say because they refer to that more than 99% of the moderates then to understand understand the particular nuance of the ideology this is where we rely on mainstream but they don't necessarily know if that is a thorough understanding of what

is needed. but i thought it was all ideology but now i find the truth that really that is what transitions me from those radicaldeas. i think essentially they are correct. >> i think you've raised a few important issues here and in the united states and abroad whether you talk about license or to ever have a legitimate government essentially that

was a trumpe version of tyranny. that was very attractive to people so that is very importan important. the muslim community here wondering where they sent with the legitimacy. in any event prior to 911. and then afterwards and then to alicia new torrent and as that in the united states.

and with racial profiling. and as a very real concern. and then the protection from undue search and seizure. it is hard to ignore but even more when it fuels and assumed to be monolithic there is a twist. and there are some parallels and he is there for a long time with the bifurcation of the culture.

that could be the more dire case and see with to grapple with the identity of the european context of what that means and then to take ownership. then they are responsible for everything. and in terms of the political role? it was explained to me the political division is muslim. so we have one or two people here.

but i imagine that will require some more adjusted now and has to be the best argument with the ads there is no path forward for the muslim and u.k. and you could be the mayor of london without level of achievement and ultimately that is a good thing. >> ultimately that is important. and politics are predictably should to be radicalized.

but then also to be very easily disseminated. and then with politics more responsible with those sponsors. that raises the question one of the policy goals is to put them back in the box and only has someone to move saudi arabia from that consensus base totalitarian dictatorship but is really pushing back in a real way with a very big thing that is the new thing of

the arab states so how big of a deal is it? . . . . so i don't think it is a gene that can be put back in the

bottle. it would actually prove to be more counterproductive than it was to do so. i wrote a recent piece that says basically there is a coming war and the son of bin laden will utize the ref in order to counter the idea that he is defending islam in the arabian peninsula as well which discusses the fact that they allowed a contract with the association. so that framework is important but a lot of times what goes missing if they can be the biggest deterrent to. you might think about them but they should play a role in this engagement, so i'm not so sure

that removing that would do anything which was a movement that they tried to sort of modernize around americanop and this induced them into accepting the idea of the doctrine as the mostppropriate authorizing rebellion against him and then transitioning into making his population and audience aware becsehey are partners there would be no way that we could overthrow saudi arabia and unless they were reduced to

i think the truth base out. there is enough material online published tanen off the field and for those that are interested, it is something they can ingest and sort of metabolites and used to justify political actions that they may ha a religious veneer with a legitimacy to it. i am a bit more hopeful, but on the ideological standpoint, too much is already out there to report back in a meaningful way. >> other questions?

>> my question is mostly to jesse. the medium that you used to transmit, my question is more about the means that you used to promulgate. were you waiting for people to thread it for you or doing research to the outreach for otherups? not only did allow the message to be produced many times over in a different way but also gives a person a feeling like they are embedded in the movement way deliberately recruited those that were living off the welfare state to administer. it is in much the same manner we

were able to say this is about every one and women have a role to play as well. so if the ability to insert everybody into active engagement with. it could be in any country. >> wednesday afternoon, we have monica speaking here at the head of global content for facebook and basically counterterrorism as a huge part of the agreement. how would you assess the job facebook has done countering these kind of messages? >> whoever is involved in the headquarters is more innovative.

>> i got my education and most of what i learned about religion aln the summer it was the same thing. i learned they are now teaching the religion because i exist occupation muslim most of the people i at that time was working with the organization and we did focus groups. the first weeks of, some of them

felt happy because this was the first time under the justice of the islamic state. now because of my work every day i am facing people who post on social media. when i engage and tellhe do you believe in isis, their answer is no coming a, if this t group. the my question for all of you how should we stop these ideas because it will repeat and happen again everywhere and every time. thank you. >> i don't know how would you

are but with regards to your educational upbringing, what timeframe? >> i was born in 1978. >> so coincided to their trade transition and there was also things were trickling in allhese over the world but it's not just about the ideas in order to counter we need to understand the social movement with the basic sunni community where you

had the military personnel this probably explains why there was very little resistance so i dot thi it is just about the ideology it can be counted at the same time of addressing the grievances that are found in. one of the paper's new america published showed that it could be about economic variables and from the other pointof what you see now is that it was so barbaric and you will see it will be beneficial as a whole.

he became a brand, a corporation to allow yourself to experiment alongside every organization so the benefit now they may be more willing to accept a the narrative that has to be dealt witwith through the holistic an. >> you point out the social movement is real and gng.

the elephant in the room is poor governance and we know people turn to religion often for ideas about social justice and security forces andppatus are targeting the populations that are part of the underclass. when there is corruption in the government so of course there is a kind of great temptation to talk about the grievance and the abstract and it's important to understand when the biggest investment is regrowing and reconstructing governments in places like those mobile data. it might prove to be impossible

but we do need to think of the problem to recognize how people turn towards religion and underlining the political and economic. there are ways we can deal with it. i don't know if the current policy is trending in that direction, but in the same way that we trained the military leaders it can improve the aweness for the importance of giving people the freedom and power structure as long as they provide effective governance to the people because they are able to collect we know how big of a problem that is and they are

welcomed by a large number of people. >> returning to the question at the beginning, there would be not a legal impediment to a but it could be a useful tool if you want to create a totalitarian state because you could do a pretty good assessment on this issue. >> i am not sure that facebook and youtube are not doing this. i think we were doing it manually we had an artist that

figured out the online mnd if we reengineer he is online, he is a kid in queens before he became who he became we could see steps they change their name tchanged theirname to and what e talking about. there is no doubt it can be done in terms of seeing someone change over time. is that information available open source or in a private setting you can reengineer when he was a student on them --

let's say he would have 10,000 cases. if someone was ash os and it's a part of their profile that wasn't behind your privacy settings, theoretically it shouldn't be a barrier. >> we think of it as a great radicalized law enforcement perspective because people are dumb on social media and say stupid things. maybe they are getting smarter now. >> it used to be everybody and now a short period of time after 9/11, they realized that probably wasn't the smartest place to be a conspirator but then it moves on line and becomes virtual.

it becomes that media where individuals could talk and interact, and that was an area , so there was an element ofer exploitation i would say left in 12 b i would imagine it now its provided the primary place owhere people are presenting themselves on social media and putting up the flag on their facebook page it may be worth a second look. >> last one since david was instrumental in making this paper happened. >> my question revolves around -- in the report you did a great job on the tactic and also sort of showing the goal of an

islamic state or caliphate in some form obviously big differences in what tns going back decades. i wonder what with your strategic vision of what you were doing on social media to contribute to get into the caliphate and did you see yourself as having a strategy or were you just encouraging others that have more knowledge of the strategy tha but for you it migt have been more about solidarity were living up to a religious value. >> it was because of this idea that there was this american exceptionalism on the community that did the variables. we knew very early on there was

an interest that would ensue but essentially, we had the same ideology of the time an at the e actually abiding that al qaeda needed toff-neededto be an ideae everywhere have an obligation because of their ability to fight in the field and so we saw th united states a also ihat in don't think the method was that different but we transted it into a way that would literally go scream at the community outside of the mosque every friday and then a piece of literature we would call the radical review, but then they sort of public persona we just did american type stuff that's great when you loo look at the h of us predominated by videos

with cats on youtube. >> thank you very much, it was a brilliant conversation and for the brilliant discussion. please read the paper an paper a big round of applause. [applause]