so today i think we have an opportunity to attack the strategy of recruitment associated with the territorial office but in order to go further and attack the idea and counter it we have to understand the template of recruitment and radicalization because this is a historical

progression. a big social media apparatus, the ability to tap into mainstream coverage. it is something new with a long evolution and one very interesting quote to the context to develop a famous model for wave of terrorism and started his religious wave in 1979 and modeled that, surpassing it significantly, a wave of terrorism is opposed of organizations that have very different ideas. they didn't appear before the initial wave associated but when a wave's energy cannot inspire new organizations it disappears. political concessions, changes in the perceptions of generations of critical factors. of jihadists transition to a virtual caliphate run by

supporters and not actual operatives, that is the key to ending of the war on terror. the military operations must continue and potential terrorist attacks and arrests must not lead us to a pattern that has occurred since the post-9/11 era. and removed from the playing field to coincide with other situations when the united states and others pull out of iran between the middle east and at the same time failed to counter violent extremism and advance them. the revolution template and ideology and methodology in a qualitative and quantitative perspective is different and

that is why we need to understand it. and focusing on attacking the ideas by better understanding of the methodology and breaking up the networks. so we cannot continue to resurrect them. thank you very much. ready for discussion. >> obviously a big deal takes a lot of courage and patience and perseverance to untangle all the strands so congratulations. for me the most striking part of the paper, to stand out on the tactical level, how quickly

the twitterverse has mushrooms, iterations and variations over the last decade or so but even more striking is the classic struggle for the bureaucracy and innovation which is the story of all security threats in many ways so i think the nypd clearly showed it had learned some lessons that it wanted to innovate by taking on recruits who could get out there, collect in formation where you have arabic speakers, it turned out the surprise, to look out for, again, another

lesson learned here certainly for the bureaucracy, innovation comes in small packages sometimes. on the policy side in washington, dominated by concerns from the department of homeland security around homegrown jihadists and how to get ahead of the curve online. what it demonstrates is this is difficult to do especially if there is unwillingness to engage in key issues around potential radicalization, the need to have preintervention methodology. there is a fundamental challenge, a need for assessment tools, psychological assessment tools. the crowds could speak to that

better than i but there are some deficits in terms of what the bureaucracy is able to do to enhance the problem of what seems like a small group of people but actually as we know, the french and belgian context it is quite large. in the german context as well. there are some severe policy indications going forward in terms of now that isis core is diminished territorially speaking and being flipped back online and mushrooms there. there is this challenge around homegrown tourists who come back between passports, coming

back from iraq or syria. how big that threat is, it is certainly there and bureaucracy is not the same compared to that. i'm talking about combined bureaucracy, homeland security, state department and others. one of the reasons is the typical response of bureaucracy, it is an intentional and unfocused and that is where we are but there are some references, it doesn't come out in this paper and present an opportunity for the united states with dhs and others to deal with those coming back in a rack and syria

but to create opportunities, those who leave prison to reintegrate and that is the other big challenge, the return, serving your time, how difficult it is for a whole swath of people, gang members and others, a cheap lack of the social safety net or those incarcerated and served their time. i think our system generally we have to acknowledge embraces the idea the punishment continues and you will be deprived of healthcare, basics transitioning back into the

social falls. and beaulieu 2, but most importantly for the bureaucracy is the struggle, and a great temptation to throw a lot of money but there's a huge off-line problem. it is critical, you can see in the case of trouble in ireland, and to redefine. can be constructive in managing the reintegration process, become resources for those who can be helped. >> thank you, candace rondeaux.

what is most interesting, predictions about the future, let's try. the point of the paper is true. it became the artist template. that is the fractured nature of the middle east to produce a son of isis or grandson of isis, or elements, a lot of different ways it will come but it will use a letter. the question is what will it do that is different? assume it takes over a territory the size of the united kingdom or switzerland. one area, a question and one idea, these groups, whatever

the latest technology is. al qaeda in the beginning before it was al qaeda was a color magazine called g hard. the earlier adopters, what is available, the most interesting technologies virtual technology. it would be soon for a jihadist group, encouraging people to join the jihad and all that comes with it but set up virtual reality training camps. is that the next wave? >> a fascinating idea to think about and recently listening to everybody else, the podcast, i can't help but think about the trainees being in a room and

the fact that isis has their detailed diagrams entry and exit points for particular landmarks around the world. it is not much of a leap to say make that available in an encrypted way to people with virtual reality through enhanced reality goggles who can walk themselves through how to get into that building and you turn right, you turn left and you see different groups take hotels and hostages, it doesn't seem that far-fetched. already the islamic state had diagrams and the floor plan, the ability to walk cooperatives through that. counter to it is haven't got my mind around that but the idea

is fascinating. >> i was very skeptical. i didn't know jesse personally, i thought they were a bunch of clowns, the islamic thinkers society was moronic, they were making a lot of noise, really didn't take it seriously. what made you think it was easy to dismiss this group as marginal, you mentioned rosh hashanah, a classic example, never met anybody, completely radicalized in her bedroom. how did you see this coming or did you have more foresight that other people didn't have. >> i remember those

conversations, are they provocateurs? number one, a phenomenal analytic cadre with a few of them. they were very keen to look at what was around the world and look at islamic thinking and see how they operated and not being one of the bureaucracy since 1947, we are new to the indulgence world, british and germans, and the british and uk intelligence and associated

with it and the mirror image of that, people travel overseas in pakistan, just one off. the group itself dozens committed tax but people who spin off, demonstrate in times square, to the fight. people leave those groups are the ones to keep an eye on and that is the case. >> remind the audience, he was doing that, the portrayal of the prophet mohammed. we didn't know the first amendment society, certain things about the prophet mohammed but can't incite violence against people who might do something about it.

and getting out of prison, there -- people sentences are coming up. unlike france or belgium, radicalization in the past, the question, people come out, what is your view on this. do some people become more radical in prison as a way of promoting themselves, the people, it was fascinating. he lied at my sentencing

hearing, how are you going to deal with 20 years in prison to give the baddest guy on the block. and when they get out, what are the problems they are going to face? what can you do? >> a very interesting case because of an individual who had an affluent background educated at a private school towards jihadist him and the revolution is the greatest but he was adamant to a degree with what was necessary and speaking. to travel, to join somalia and

i have read letters, let's say i am not a psychiatrist. serious defenders will not get down the road with information coming out and the way we dealt with it after 9/11 was very public and terrorism related defenders, creating an echo chamber where you assume -- essentially isolated extremist affiliations. it is sometimes environmental, sometimes far right but predominantly jihadist. we can give many examples where they are monitored, and in some way -- >> why is that?

why do people put in these units? >> across the federal prison system, to radicalize an entire population. it is problematic. a lot of individuals in communication management, but -- >> inside the communication -- >> also an outstanding influential role. there is a lot of syrian g hard with proper jihadist ideology. it is problematic, social,

psychological effects for radicalizing but people coming home moved away from communication management, showing everything they have. >> in florence. >> it is problematic. we need to have less that what gets reduced sentencing. the interesting thing about people who have been released, upward methodology, pragmatic program that will help but the most important aspect is the fact that you are employable, tarnished inside your society.

it would be very easy to hypothesize or speculate the realization there is no future for me and revert to violence. >> where are you? >> my process is in march 2015, worked very hard, on the program, working with fbi and online and off-line and the polarization, the first former jihadist. that was a long process, out it as an informant and what is not the typical case associated with that in the real world and it was humiliating, but a social service job, i was

fired. ultimately, in dc, i went public in august in 16 and blue up. that i realized i not only had the intellectualization but needed to go further. and i had disengaged and reverted, to three radicalization stages. >> i had accepted bipolar disorder. i worked luckily with pro bono trauma and talking about things i experienced running away in

life. and able to write again in a lifestyle that is healthy. it was up there until very recently. contacted with mitch and the process it took to write this paper was very beneficial. >> tell us about that. >> all of a sudden i realized my relief monitoring. when i was released in march 2015 i came up of the methodology whether or not jihadists believe i was released due to my cooperation with business or due to my appeal process. my sentence was changed and i was free but don't think anybody would believe that model was radicalized so i was

embedded, and was there and identified at the stages. that was brought to the table, with the fact that it is akin to what is going forward. which led an individual adherence, i can no longer express grievances but committed act of violence. in context of that, the identification apart from that, but community had been aware of radicalization and a different experience, and ideology and organization is supposed to be defunct. >> how do you hook up with that. >> mitch emailed and let you

know what happened. if you are up to it, it would be beneficial. so we started to collaborate outlines and one of the most amazing things, destroyed my ability to function when i came home, willing to have a discussion and i mentioned mitch had called and we started to talk about working on this paper. it was the process of that unfolding through editing advice, with -- >> it was throughout. >> it is surprising how much we have been in an agreement. for me this is, i never thought

the project was where we are. a team of analysts and under covers, he was the bogeyman. not only will these people fly to somalia or afghanistan or pakistan, very was dancing on the first amendment in a way that for 5 years they could mail them. >> is that, now lie the? >> different times. >> at least you overlapped. >> did not. >> do you see that?

jesse was a challenger, we happened to have in -- informants very well placed. online human assets, we knew what they were doing but nevertheless, propagandizing and recruiting people to mobilize toward violence. what i believe is his mistake, i am not sure how the story changes. and didn't want to touch the case. only with the line and specificity of his threat, and gordon kronberg, and on the

line. >> racial hatred is a crime. germany, holocaust and i was a crime. what was the line the revolution was to craft, and made the difference. >> unless it is directly providing access to harm an individual. mildly charge was communicating a threat. posted a picture and answered him. he said they didn't like -- south park writers. the evangelical engineers alongside -- it was deemed to

be inappropriate against muslims particularly muslim women and a moroccan in and stirred am took it upon himself, killed him in cold blood. this was the threat and it was not sufficient to make it. not only predicting that it would be arm but justifying the theological argument, it might or might not be where they were located. and that model, people who migrated, such as hussein, very key, the names of officials and very effective means even though the attack might not be

likely and almost minuscule it is effective to show that you have this cyberspace capability. >> if you have a question raise your hand and identify yourself. this gentleman here in front. wait for the mic. >> thank you very much. a question to jesse. say you were the cnn version of online jihadist them, the anti-dubbadash who were your

competitors, the ones online with anti-radicalization presence and perhaps another question. >> never thought of that. >> abc, cbs. >> this is the discussion, and ongoing problem, what can be done online to counter? >> if you were to consider efforts, and the radicalization or a separate entity, it is very important. at the time there was no such thing as counters on extremism. community leadership chose not to amplify our voices and that

is when they are unwilling to denounce that. it happened several times, it was great for our audience. and wilberforce and a pro-british event, refuted his theological argument, the same thing happened but they backed off. not much of a countervoice, far right extremist and very well knew it. the sentencing transcript, walking down the street on madison avenue and i want to start this organization and i am just a clown and i say you are a clown, that is great,

just to be a clown. that was more effective than anything. if you want to get on fox news or cnn, and they pick it up and hold further polarization and that is where you wanted it in that manner. not until they started to develop an idea in 2011, barack obama launched a strategic implementation plan and they wavered with regard to context. not much of an opposing voice, when we went on cnn, to terror rise and came out with a sensation that is required to get ratings in mainstream media, and positive voices and

from then -- >> a fair amount to do with islam, summarizing. >> isis is not islamic. it is very islamic. and truth be told it is unnecessary. every interpretation, regarding how it is, isis's ideology and inherence is worse than al qaeda, a strand of revisiting the needs to be redressed and understood. ec is downplaying the ideological role in the pulse nightclub and special agents doubled up with a higher-level operative, and a massive amount

of reporting had nothing to do with that technology at all. and other coverage of it, it is because he was a homosexual and that is absolutely correct. very islamic interpretation but they refer to text more than 99%, the way they skew the text and understand the nuances of the ideology and relying on the extreme, imams were not scoring the same way and was a thorough understanding to refute the ideology. and it was all ideology, had a lot more to do with this position but it transitioned

for radical ideas. it is essentially correct. >> you raise a couple points, there is a deep -- in the muslim community in the united states and abroad whether you are talking about isis or not. this divide, and writing about isis, i rarely refer to isis as isis because i don't subscribe to the idea that it was ever a legitimate caliphate or legitimate government. essentially cooked up version of a tear any with a lot of trappings. that were very attractive to people. that debate is an important one with the sense that the muslim

community here and where they said with regard to legitimacy and augmentation with the other piece here and there was always an anti-muslim cast. the muslim community here, it is more ferland and the arab spring unleash a new torrent of debate where the muslim community really sits and in the meantime the coverage of the nypd case in court, racial profiling, this is a very real concern, does walk up to that line, freedom of speech and protection from undue search

and seizure and hard to ignore but even more hard to ignore the muslim community feels profiled, a space and is monolithic in some way or another. there is a twist here and there is a reference but there are parallels in belgium in particular and france, belgium is a special case and they lived there for a long time and had try partitions of culture and along religious lines and in that case in the united states or france in terms of how to grapple with muslim identity in the european context and what that means in this situation where if they

take ownership of g hardy debates they are responsible for everything and i don't know how the community grappled with. >> political roles for the muslims. >> in the us it is in its early days. it explains to me that in the brussels state legislature or political division, 25% of legislature is muslim. in the us, one or two people here and there, it is not registering on the scale but it will require more adjustments but clearly on the bottom side, london's mayor has got to be the best argument to rebut the

idea for muslim in the uk, or you can be the mayor of london and that level of achievement and participation and society as a good thing and that is the best counter narrative there is. >> not necessarily the political role but ultimately important but one of the greatest things is politics and participation in politics is radicalized and democracy or polytheism, participation, one of the earliest lessons in one way, shape or form and more progressive policies denounce participation in showing

someone who is successful with those who use kickboxing as a means of radicalizing or did radicalization. >> the american policy goals, put wahhabi is him back in the box, now we have someone moving saudi arabia from consensus-based to a secularized -- without the gulags. but he is pushing back in a very real way on the establishment. the really big thing, if you are a woman in a divorce case you can retain your kids without going to court. the new thing is way ahead of arab states. how big a deal as it, a lot of things most people are willing to find aren't but also done a lot of things on this religious

issue. to what extent do you see what hobby ideas, as part of the problem in new york city and if the saudis are able to put this toothpaste back in the toothpaste holder, is that a big deal or not? >> i don't think it is going to be effective in preventing radicalization because at this point understandings of wahhabi islam and the political agreements, the reinterpretation of the texts, it is not a genie that can be put back in the bottle. wahhabi is an is more counterproductive, says there is a conference, the son of osama bin laden utilizing

mohammed's influence to counter the idea of a release from al qaeda and the arabian peninsula as well, how this is clearly not winning. the same work is important, and where it occurs is the biggest deterrent, you might think about maybe they reduce radicalization but they should play a role in this engagement so i'm not sure that will induce anything, a movement where previous kings tried to modernize and turn american troops on the arabian peninsula and this induced them into

accepting the idea that it was appropriate through criticizing and denouncing rebellion against him and making the audience aware there would be no way to overthrow saudi arabia unless you were adduced to not playing the role of global, quote, heroes. >> clearly from the new york perspective what hobby is him, the most often intermingled, those surviving the ideology in earliest stages to understand the differences where they existed. that i think it is out of the tube.

there is enough material online that can't be taken and those who are interested in fat, something they can ingest and metabolize and justify political actions they may have with their religious legitimacy. maybe i am a little more hopeful about mbs in saudi arabia but the ideological standpoint, too much is already out there at least in the short term. >> other questions? the gentleman here? >> my question is mostly to jesse. you mentioned the medium to transmit your message, facebook or twitter or whatever. my question about the means you use to propagate, are you waiting to spread it or doing

outreach to other groups? >> very important point, it is to satisfy their needs in our efforts so people share information on facebook and not only allow the message to resonate, they are part of the movement, we deliberately recruited females from britain who were living off of the welfare, to love women and number 2, by being aware women were participating in the same manner we were able to say there was a gender bias and inability for active engagement.

to participate no matter where they were. >> the head of global content and policy. and counterterrorism is a huge part of that. how would you assess the job facebook has done in countering that? >> better than youtube and the takedown approach and more innovative -- >> the counterterrorism. >> i was born a muslim and i got my education in islam. one thing i learned about religion was isis teaching

their numbers, and the same thing, saying isis teaching their intelligence because if that was not a surprise for me, isis, observation, lots of people in those all, working with organizations, focus group inside if some youngs and for the first weeks we did this and young people. some of them so happy, the justice of the islamic state. now because of my work, every day, facing people on social

media, and the isis idea. when i engage in some of them, do you believe in isis, no, isis is a terrorist group. you are posting isis -- isis is a terrorist group, all of you, how should we stop these ideas? if we don't stop these ideas isis will happen again everywhere and every time in its history, thank you. >> can i ask, don't know how old you are but with regard to your education what timeframe we are talking about? you don't have to answer. >> i was born in 1978. >> coinciding a transition in the iraqi state particularly

military but also going about it to the rampant promotion by this government so these are happening all over the world and becoming the dominant framework to interpret religion but it was not just the ideas of the american enterprise that you see, in order -- we don't just counter the ideology but need to understand the social movement and the way resources particularly in areas of combat and relationships with the sunni community and when you live in situations like muzzle where you had the control of shiite individuals in the military, may have been sunni

and very little resistance. and it is countered at the same time. there is a serious democracy, one of the papers recently published called all the hard is local, it can be social and economic variables. we see what the social movement is called -- isis is so barbaric, like al qaeda, beneficial for the jihadist movement as a whole. competition is good in any way you want to allow yourself to experiment alongside every terrorists organization.

the general population, isis is messaging and more willing to accept the jihadist narrative and made the announcement. that presents something that has to be -- >> the social movements, it is growing, it is big, real big and poor governance and what we know about a rack and syria, people turn to religion often for ideas about social justice,

deep inequality, when the apparatus is targeted, populations that are part of the underclass, when there is deep corruption in the government, a great temptation, really important to understand the biggest investments that were duty-bound to make was regrowing and reconstructing in places like muzzle, where there is much less appeal. >> the key point, i'm not going to venture into that but it is a problem to recognize -- largely the consequence

underlying the agreement. current policy trending in that direction. and countries like a rack, to understand the importance so the power structure doesn't do that as long as they are providing effective governance to the people, isis was able to affect as an individual who lived in the middle east, they were welcome. at the end of the day governance is important and the issue is totally different. >> the question at the beginning, what they might do, very few people become violent

but there are multiple legal impediments to using ai to look people and say who is likely to radicalize. from your view, creating a totalitarian state and do a pretty good assessment on this issue. >> facebook and youtube and self-regulatory matter, and doing it manually. what is the online model? in person, and samir khan, the

kid in queens, we see steps and visible tone and they changed their name, there is no doubt it can be done, it will change over time. what is the point of intervention, financially available open-source or behind privacy settings. and you can reengineer some year can't when he was a student in london at ucl. >> no legal impediment to engineer this manually but have a lot of cases, suddenly you had 10,000 cases you applied ai to. there is no legal impediment. >> if someone is showing this a profile that is visible behind your privacy settings, theoretically, shouldn't be a

legal barrier. >> as a law enforcement official it was very useful for you to arrest people. we always think of social media as a radicalize or and ran -- rather useful from a law enforcement perspective because people say stupid things on social media which indicate what they are thinking. >> used to be everybody met in a mosque. now for a short time after 9/11, wasn't the smartest place to be a conspirator but it moves online. it became virtual, and that medium where individuals can talk and that is an area where

people repeated participation might change over time. there was an element of exploitation. i would imagine it is probably the primary place. >> what people are presenting themselves on social media, the way they put up the black flag on their facebook page and talk about horses and swords. >> other questions? david, last one. david is instrumental in making this paper happen. >> thanks. my question revolves around the report the you did, a great job on the tactics and also showing the consistent goal of an islamic state or caliphate in some form, a big difference in what that means going back decades. what was your strategic vision of what you were doing tactically on social media

would contribute and did you see your self as having a strategy or were you just identifying and encouraging others to identify figures abroad that had more knowledge of strategy but as it might have been signaling solidarity or living up to a religious -- >> like peter said, largely this idea there was an american exceptionalism in the mobile muslim community, associate dominic and variable. we knew very early on to disseminate them, there was support here and in subsequent years was proof of that. we had the same ideology of al qaeda and the worldview and we

were abiding by the dictate that al qaeda needed to become an idea and everyone has an obligation to disseminate the idea and their ability to fight in the fuel. we saw ourselves fulfilling that in the united states. i don't think our message was that different but we translated it in an american way and made it very provocative and had a different approach. we would scream at the american community every friday fundraising and we had a piece of literature, incredibly written propaganda and a figurehead or public persona, we did american type stuff that is great when you look at the world that is predominated by cat videos on youtube. >> thanks for the invitation and the discussion. please read the paper and give them a big round of applause. [applause]

[inaudible conversations] .. he's interviewed by syndicated columnist on book tv afterward program and also this week and former house speaker newt gingrich offering thoughts on the impact of the trump administration policy on america and around the world. a social justice activist