now it is a great pleasure to introduce tonight's speaker the president of the migration policy institute who previously is the executive vice president of the wilson center and founding director of doubles and centers institute a regular columnist for the mexican newspaper and previously served as a member of the council on foreign relations task force immigration. please give a warm welcome to mr. andrew seeley. [applause] >> thank you lewis, gregory, joe and everyone else. it's great to be here. this is a phenomenal organization and opportunity to be with all of you. we have done a great job not only connecting people with ideas but also cataloguing and dissecting and talking about the american experience. what i want to talk about tonight although it sounds like it's about the united states and mexico and it is about the

united states and mexico it is about our experience and about how mexico is in our lives and why it is as much as a neighboring country in our liv lives. it's becoming one country. the answer is probably a resounding no for anybody here on either side of the border, but we are much closer than we think. we are much closer than people on either side realized most of the time. the boundaries that separate us are beginning to fall apart and we are far more connected than we've ever been. let's start with the news of the day. the world cup. 2026 who is hosting the world cup. that's right, mexico and the united states and canada. the north america world cup.

very exciting. something that would have been hard to imagine ten or 20 years ago. mexicans would have been reluctant. imagine canada and the united states perhaps they would have been reluctant to do a bed with the united states seeing this as an overbearing partner. we probably didn't have the awareness to give a joint bid 20 years ago. a lot has changed in this short period of time but my guess is that it would have taken until now for this to happen. it may seem on if you are at the point you listen to the political rhetoric things are different if we believe what we see coming across going to argue tonight but we should believe more in the world cup then we see in politics and then we see happening where we are actually coming together around north america and in relation of a different kind of relation is more where we are headed in the future than we see coming out in

political discourse. we will come back to that because it does matter and it can shape what happens in important ways. but i suspect the more colorful things happening are happening outside of government, or they are happening below the political government. i try to tel tried to tell the f coming together and it's coming from the u.s. side but ultimately it's how mexico is becoming part of our lives and i'm going to tell you for stories that come out of this book and they are all different facets of how we are coming together so i will try to deal to pose together at the end into the larger story about our coming together as two countries. very different neighbors but what i would likiwould like to e strangers, deeply intimate and our relations with each other but sometimes yet without the

ability to understand how we are coming together and how it matters to us. let me start where the book starts which is not at the border. i started out the border between the united states and mexico but i decided in the end to start in pennsylvania. has anyone been to hazleton pennsylvania? a number of people. has anyone heard of hazleton pennsylvania? you probably heard of it because it was a place where the debate reached its boiling point to paspastthe local ordinances that outlawed renting or hiring people that could improve the documentation of the united states. that was in 2006. it became the place that they camped out for most of the year.

it is a city that had gone through is a fascinating time in the pocono mountains. it's a town i feel strongly fond of and it is going good places in the future. and it's a town that wears immigration on its sleeve. but also different ethnic origins from the migrations that could have been years ago so there's an orthodox church in the ukrainian catholic church in aand the orthodox church and thn a methodist church, historically irish and italian parish in the city that was built by immigrants about 100 years ago. was there before 100 years ago but the boom of hazleton happened to the earlier

migration. what is happening in the mid-1990s and th than the late 1990s and early 2,000 is you have a strong migration mostly people who lived in the new york area and they are moving in because of the jobs in hazleton for the first time if they were coming because rent was cheap and it was a beautiful city. it was a very rapid shift in demographics and a short period of time. some of them are the services that could respond to children who didn't speak english were children, competition over resources and hospitals and other public services is also a spike in crime that is unusual by every. it was unusual because you had a lot of teenagers that have grown

up in new york city said they were bringing the waves to a smaller cities of the spike in crime. if you go to hazleton anytime you will see a town that doesn't get filled with boarded up buildings in the old commercial area. to do this thriving with small businesses everywhere. stores, restaurants and even a classy men's store downtown. it's becoming very vibrant city again. vibrant because of the families that moved in with incredibly entrepreneurial and it's not surprising they were twice as likely to start a business and that holds true whether they are from latin america, europe, asia or anywhere else in the world and we can talk about that one if you want to but it feels like we don't completely understand that it's well documented to serve the businesses and sure

enough it's seen a turnaround of a city that had been in a long economic decline and you see them in hazleton as well. now, not only has hazleton harnessed new energy and did what he did 100 years ago but in hazleton they've also done a lot to develop their own communities back home. not from hazleton but one of the stories also investing in their hometowns and mexico one of the stories the past ten or 20 years and mexico-based come a long way in a short period of time with a long way to go through many would like their country to be but it's become a long way in a short period of time. one piece of that is migrants themselves investing in their hometowns and this is something that you see if you are in hazleton and something here in the los angeles area is a piece of another chapter but i'm not

going to tell you the whole story. but about southern california. [inaudible] he is here. good to see you. so to get the story about southern california and throughout the united states but eventually together they lead the developmentothe developmente federation to move beyond the migrants have always done which is investing in schools and clinics and roads and things that do a lot of good for the community is realizing that it wasn't enough and people kept leaping to their communities and it was important to invest in communities and things in employment so read that chapter where they were created and how they did this and they went around and went about finding ways of investing in businesses but there's a lot as well from the people who moved to hazleton

and that is a story that is incredibly important. the other thing that happens that is fascinating and this is what got me to go in the first place, it was the epicenter of the immigration debate but a few years later it turned out that there were four factories owned by mexican companies in and around the hazleton providing employment to workers, two of them inside our by the largest drug company in thprivate compaa mexican company. you know it in the united states as sara lee, pizza crusts if you've made a pizza recently, or thomas english muffins. not as english as they used to be. [laughter] it turns out they come from a

mexican company hiring american workers to make baked goods in the united states and selling them in the united states. not far down the road there is a tortilla company owned by mexico and there is a plan to the next town over in hazleton and was also potato chips if any of you have been on the east coast the official potato chip from the boston red sox owned by a mexican company. factories arthe factories are in owned by the companies hiring american workers and it is an interesting story not because this is the story of the freetown in the united states because of some of the complexities and the relationship between the two countries that we do not often think about in the period that there were lots of people across the border, the flu that largely ended up after 2007 mexican capital coming across the border and it is a story that we know

very little about but it's fascinating. it's not just bread and tortillas, but they are among the largest in milk and yogurt, hot dogs and lunchmeat, cement, pre- paid self-service and the port of los angeles largely operated by a joint mexican venture, the commercial part of the court as well as seattle, new york and one of the other commercial ports in the u.s.. it is a joint effort of the investors. let me tell you a second and this is a story that again in investment about $17 billion is a lot, but it's still a small piece of the overall economy but it begins to tell about the complexity of the relationship and it's something that has been primarily in the small and medium-sized towns in hazleton and those like it. they suddenly have a large

inflow of mexican capital and it begins to create a different relationship. one of the places this happens iif this is any place called poplar bluff missouri near the border with arkansas has a plant owned by midcontinent, the largest in the united states. now it isn't an industry that has been particularl done partin the united states in fact imported from china and a few other countries have largely displaced the industry and they are important if it were not for them we would be having this conversation outside on the lawn. [laughter] we hoped maybe they are midcontinent males. they were trying to hold themselves against the tide. they eventually decided to sell the company was bought by their provider that is a mexican company from northern mexico. ..

>> that doesn't mean no jobs ever moved to mexico or that these companies to bankrupt that could not compete this is a complex relationship and a lot of things happen so the workers looked at him distrustful lee with every reason to think he was about to close down the plant but

over time we managed to get the steel from mexico they could still -- stay competitive. and to expand the largest plant in the united states to hire more workers. now that is a small niche industry but take the larger industry automobiles the backbone of the industrial complex. we would be implied it when -- flooded with cars from japan that did not happen.

>> but then one of the critical things that happened with u.s. industry today it is completely integrated so not just the world cup bid but also in terms of automobiles and it is a peaceable one -- impossible to get into a vehicle today somewhere we have a car or bus or train or airplane almost certain it was made by workers in the united states and mexico and canada because those industries are integrated across the board. it doesn't matter if it is the american owned or japanese company, chances are that vehicle is made in north america and primarily in the united states. because what ended up happening is a test their production to north america.

most cars you can get in this country are made in north america and handful canada some in mexico but there are components or mall three because just like integrating the supply-chain automobiles became competitive globally in north america and it save the auto industry in north america. when we talk about trade with mexico, when we talk about nafta we talk about trade and there is trade and as a soybean farmer that is real trade we do make things and send it to another country mexico is the second largest market for exports and that is

very important but much of what we do with mexico and canada is not trade but we make things together and what moves across the border back and forth is not things we are just selling to the other side but things that are moving within companies that make a single product we will sell together at the end so talk about getting rid of nafta we are talking about saving the american industry and the mexican industry and canadian industry. all three are integrated. there are things that were not considered or to increase wages in mexico but ultimately it is impossible to think about what we have. and you come back to the plant we just imposed steel tariffs on mexico that is ironic

because actually imports more steel from us than export but nevertheless apparently it is a national security threat. [laughter] so there is a huge danger and touching pace when -- base of people but on the face there is a huge danger to undo our old mail history with these tariffs coming from mexico or putting tariffs on car parts then we begin to add to the cost to make the car in north america and ultimately ship production outside of north america. but it turns out we make more than just industrial goods we make a lot of other things together. technology i have a fun chapter one of the most fun to write that in no fit is fun to read about technology

innovation between united states and mexico. now there is innovation between silicon valley in fact there is an article in the printed online magazine that i wrote talk about guadalajara is the new silicon valley there is a lot of cities in mexico that are investing in the mexican culture it has developed a technology industry very tied to the u.s. originally simply about producing chips back in the 70s and 80s it eventually moved into some research and development for the european and asian companies and in its most recent round to start to develop their own set of startups so i track some of

those in the books there is a lot of connections with investors but also ideas flowing back and forth how to start companies and then you have a first generation of truly mexican startups that are successful in guadalajara as well as other cities. also sports. in the world cup but the nfl the baywatch nfl in mexico? the last two seasons they play regular-season games in mexico city and they will do that for four more years. the nba also played four games in mexico city. basketball. major-league baseball inmate played a three-game series in monterey with the dodgers and the padres and they have committed to do this as well. a lot of connections with sports and this is appealing to a big market next-door also

appealing to one or 2 million americans more than live in all of europe and the feelings so that if you kill three birds with one stone. we also do film together. and the oscar for best director? was a mexican. the last five winners of best director? four out of five that was unusual given how truly global hollywood is it is the three amigos as they are called. they grew up professionally together and then mexico came

into global cinema together there is a story about them individually and their success and surely they have tame the way for mexicans in hollywood but they are not the only ones. they do incredible films about global themes or the shape of water or pacific rim or hell boy or the resident these are stories that have universal appeal that made by mexican filmmakers they are not the only ones or miracles from heaven, gabrielle who just did the last season of marcos. narco's or if you have seen the cameraman who also won an oscar, two or three for spy

kids or night at the museum. the twilight saga or star trek discovery. tree of life and gravity. and there is a lot of riders and editors and makeup artist started their career in mexico. something has happened between the film industry that he had mexico that is mature and hollywood that is the global magnet. i talked about why this happened in mexico and why it is connected and there's a whole new generation of mexican filmmakers who are not necessarily gravitating to hollywood and they prefer to make films in mexico and a whole set who do both. and then they come back and forth across the border so it's not just cars and nails but also sports and innovation and film.

now all of the stories are about outside the government and that's not an accident. most of this creativity is happening not in washington d.c. where i live or mexico city but places like los angeles and guadalajara. but that doesn't mean that people in government are not working together in fact deal that goes on between the national government even at a time of political conflict there is a lot going on at the state and local level between mexico and the united states. and the unusual case of san diego and tijuana. it is personal for me i lived in tijuana six years and san

diego year and a half and i went back and forth frequently and then i started to believe these were similar size cities close to each other but they were distant in so many ways tijuana was rough-and-tumble. peace value and low value added manufacturing an isolated beach town cities that are hard to imagine they would ever get together. something started happened early 2000. tijuana began to move up the value added chain with advanced media fracturing but is much more complex for research and development u.s. also starting to build a middle class in tijuana with the incredible scenes is anyone gone to tijuana for dinner or lunch?

yes they have some of the best food scenes in mexico i've even argued the west coast very sophisticated culinary scene from taco stands to high-end restaurants. and the music scene going to classical music with a very sophisticated city. and i say this at my peril in los angeles another some competition but also some areas where it is a leading city in the united states. somewhere on the end of the way a few people who realizes before others, but not until

recently that they began to notice the potential that was the question of the airport. flying into san diego airport it is a scary experience. [laughter] thankfully pilots are wonderful but it is right downtown. it has a varying base on one side there is nowhere to expand airport. and isaac grew and had a vision beyond having a town by the beach as a town of innovation and originality we needed an airport that matched its ambition and that is what is already had so this debate started 40 years ago and went on until recently and that it intensified.

there were several options and none of them seemed to work we cannot move the marines you couldn't get to the bay very easy so we were running out of options but then the best option not to build another airport in san diego but join forces to tijuana they have flights to asia and a large airport and it is right on the border literally. instead of building another airport they could just build a bridge over the border to the tijuana airport. that is what they did. san diego is actually where the fence before the original wall started and then you have a beautiful bridge that connects san diego to the tijuana airport you check-in

and go across go through immigration and customs very quickly and go to your gate on the way back to the opposite. it works incredibly well. and also a symbol of what those two cities do together than to realize they could use the same airport then think of other things they could do with economic planning. an interview with the mayor of san diego who said we don't talk about two cities but one region and is echoed repeatedly several times i was working on the book they would say one metro region. one metro region so it turns out actually named top three industries are the same ones in san diego. they do some of the same functions and some are elementary. some increasingly city leaders

are meeting together or monthly right now they try to figure out how to develop a piece of real estate on both sides of the border near the border crossing with a joint project if you do it on one side is not as effective as both sides. two cities that were as far apart as you could believe 20 years ago when i lived there is part of the largest largest metropolitan area in the world this is why they are striking and it turns out it's not just the mayors. we expect federal government to be less pragmatic but it turns out even on the federal side more is going on where national politicians say angry things about each other there is a lot going on even with

security we have a big problem of organized crime between mexico and the united states mexico's weak rule of law and our i am -- illegal drugs. here it has manifested a problem of violence of organized crime but even in that area there is incredible cooperation between law enforcement and intelligence in the military with the ngos try to monitor and push for accountability. we see a lot of tweets even from those lowest numbers of illegal border crossings in the last 40 some years the lowest numbers of illegal border crossings. but there are issues that the border but the tendency has

been for the two governments to work together to figure how to make it more secure and efficient. one is called unified cargo and i was where then they were in arizona with a pioneer this u.s. and mexican inspectors standing next to each other with a single process with you have a truck and your paperwork to mexican and u.s. inspectors at the same time and they share intelligence they know something about the truck is coming through. that is separating out they are standing next to each other working together we are more likely to catch problems and be efficient actually three or four more times to go through to process but it is more secure and as much as we hear the political rhetoric

increasingly they try to get u.s. and mexican inspectors standing next to each other in the same facility they started to do that pre-inspection with american immigration inside the united states not just for passengers but for trucks regularly. and then you go through immigration with agents before you get on the plane by the time you get back to the united states you are home free you catch your taxi and it makes it much more efficient but also doing this for trucks which is a huge piece of the traffic instead of the bottleneck at the border you get it done before then you send them in a specific lane so they cannot wander off and move through or in the case of laredo texas that inspection actually

happens in the hangar of the airport. even with deep political divisions within government at a national level even there is a lot of creativity that continues to go one that you would be surprised. and it happens. i talk to someone in the trump administration about this and you would be surprised to assume that tendency is to think that mexico is the enemy but that's not true even somebody understanding how they have to solve real problems they understand they have to work together. so to wrap this up to bring together, i don't think politics is irrelevant and politicians claim to a piece that is skeptical about mock the -- mexico but they are skeptical about further engagement with the united states.

sometimes this has to do with mexico but not everything we say about you sometimes we say mexico we are talking about ourselves for the struggles around changing demographics sometimes we talk about her own fears about globalization sometimes fears that are legitimate and fears of competition we should not discount the spheres some have a legitimate basis and perhaps some don't but nevertheless they are real fears but now how politicians use them is a different question sometimes we say we want to build a wall we are not really trying to keep mexicans out but the world out that is a conversation more about ourselves now occasionally i will say to my friends sometimes we are talking about

you it's not all you there are some issues we have to deal with. that americans have concerns about trading relations i would not argue there is a net benefit that people have different experiences mexico has been good for american jobs and good for our country at large. so people have different experiences. but overall we will have a good relation with mexico. specifically younger americans may have a very positive opinion of the united states but for the most part very positive. we will continue to work with mexico and draw closer so in the end you have to measure the future the latest tween

politicians are headed and the world cup where we are headed i would choose the world cup also those innovation connections and the film connection and manufacturing connections and the problem-solving connections at the border because this is the future of our relationship with mexico in overtime we are more interconnected and understand each other but then we can understand these interconnections and embrace our differences in our connections. thank you. [applause] been i thank you will. so now he will take questions

all of you. please raise your hand and we will come to you. this also be recorded and published tomorrow morning so please say or first and last name so please say or first and last name so far you have a very compelling view of an optimistic take of bilateral relations that i'm curious to know what is your response or solution to the crisis in mexico i'm sure that you know that that was one of the most found in mexico and that impacts the perception and

what is that solution. >> i wish i had the answer to that. the two most pessimistic chapters in the book are the chapters about security cooperation not that there are not good things going on but people in law enforcement and the military the amount of cooperation that goes on is quite incredible on both sides of the border that pressure for change has been quite incredible. but there has been a lack of leadership and we have away from paying attention to this and one thing is we lost direction and with the attempt to address this may have not placed as a high priority and

then second was heroin and and fentanyl and synthetic opioids. the drug market generally is not violent you have to enforce contracts there's always a little bit but usually isn't actual violence we have real violence and things are shaken up with an incentive for that to happen what we saw also that these markings want us markets is now central part of their business markets were shook up and now how they operate in mexico and the u.s. so there is no magic bullet obviously one in mexico there is a huge need for mexican police and court to have a system rule of law that functions and there has been some success in there is some cities like tijuana

and monterey that are much better off than they once were that you could walk around to you one at night that you would have not done before. because there was a time when homicides was kidnapping and extortion and violence was public out in the streets and outside of schools because for the first time now there is some fear of the police and court system it is a perfect but a lot more than i was ten years ago and so now it is the same in monterey. but now from laredo things have gotten worse. and there has been a draft with institution building weapons do not build

institutions there is more pressure needed in the flipside is ultimately this is driven by consumption in the united states and we talked about dealing with the opioid addiction crisis we haven't done much yet on that we need to raise this to a higher level to deal with the money flowing back into mexico and then the arms that fallback. so a lot of cooperation going on. and those that are the most important are not happening. >> you have spoken positively about these relationships in the united states. and then speaking negatively where are the institutions

that will publicize and the government people to highlight those things you can impact but we don't know anything either there is a conversation this was a campaign issue at the end of the hundred days because there is enormous pressure and third from the states directly affected for those that voted for president trump. this is part of his face to open and the renegotiating?

that is a huge x factor but so far i would argue there is a fair amount of pressure going on but the reality is most americans over the last four or five years with increasing attitudes to mexico. it comes through food and film and their jobs and vacationing in mexico and those that make us more positive over time but we need to raise this level higher.

>> hello. thank you so much. i cannot help but notice these ideas about the movement. and where the immigrants play into that story that we know too well with the movement of goods and capital and then to move across borders with that rigidity of which the united states and mexico and this can be said of workers and so my

question to you is and then what does that role of migration come into the picture? and then also on the southern border. and border patrol to stem the flow and i'm curious about your thoughts. >> we have very robust relationships with mexico very limited unauthorized immigration in 2007 with that population toward mexico but high skilled or low skilled

families in terms of those overall flows but one quarter of all immigrants in the united states and with that current flows of central america and when we talked about unauthorized immigrants ten or 15 years ago and some people to go back but today a majority of people and anything for more than ten or 15 years with deep roots in society so that is a huge pending issue on the immigration system with the incredible regime and one of

the lease generous so we need to look at at all levels from low skilled to high skilled that middle school immigrants are another category. but then we recognize that unless you are 100% native american because part of the history push that as well but we all came from somewhere we came from somewhere so until we get back to the conversation where people can disagree that it is part of where we are it is hard to have a serious conversation. and increasingly trying to control its borders is not necessarily bad so do you create real channels of people

who have a fear of persecution? beyond the refugee standard? then it just got stricter in the past week over the past couple days. they are fleeing real violence so mexico is a little better to expand the definition who is considered a refugee. and we do have to have some border control that there is a question but we can't have any of these conversations seriously we are not there yet. >> why the relationship is changing ultimately because it

has mexican heritage because a lot are leaving but will also change because of intermarriage so this is a piece of the story why we are coming together. >> of all the things happening. >> we will get to the last couple questions and we will be at the reception immediately afterwards. second to last question right here. >> so brilliant book came out fantastic i have to quibble up course. [laughter] but cities experiencing rapid demographic change and offering the border as the wall. so we have to be careful because of the trump paradox 90% of the counties never met

mexicans actually deep is going on here and i want to ask you to respond so what do we tell the incoming president of mexico how to deal with donald trump basically? how do we specifically try to talk to that majority of the population that is like a pavlov response was it from the districts? that is a lot more of the population in the future that never experienced relationships with mexico at this point. >> but it shows that actually at the county level those that voted for president trump had

less experience with trade and immigration so there is some evidence that the rate of increase nearby not always necessarily in particular cities have the response to reaction it could be even rapid change zero or 10% maybe not in your city but next door but we can argue about that later but on the other question tell the president out of seth about donald trump. and i would say that whoever the president is but at this particular time even more don't think this is a relationship about two presidents but a broader relationship to make sure you gauge that way so make sure

that the cabinet and subcabinet level and with governors and mayors and society and business communities the more you would knowledge and recognize this relationship with the largest number of actors in a more firm the relationship will be and more constrained the federal government will be on the other side. and frankly if i was going to give advice to a u.s. president i'm not saying it's not my advice but the same holds true in the inverse that u.s. politicians are also advised to think of it as a larger relationship thinking that the president will think things probably will never happen and certainly not now. >> last question. >> you discuss about nafta

that there was a g7 summit up in québec and the prime minister talked about the nafta deal. >> so as the economy increased exponentially over the last decade? because of nafta? but now because the administration is arguing to renegotiate nafta, to put it in the political context to be the national trade canada two and up with the cabinet secretary here in the united states. >> if there is a cost to renegotiate with nafta, do you think both mexico and u.s. can

benefit? and if so what are the dire consequences and also the united states? >> there is a reason we don't put sunset on trade agreements under normal times because it undermines what they try to do which is creating certainty this is particularly true in the case of north america with decisions made whether the nail plant or not a plant thinking ten or 20 or 30 or 40 years with investment if they don't call in five years if there would be tariffs now we are likely to see much less investment and frankly the rest of the world becomes more attractive in this undermines us to go my guess is they will not agree on that canada and

mexico will draw the bad line although i have a lot of certain segments of the past couple years and said things of great certainty and have been completely and totally wrong. [laughter] you can decide whether it's predictable is good or bad but that my thing is a normal terms i cannot see canada or mexico agreeing to that for u.s. negotiators that's not in the interest of the u.s. industry or investment but then again anything can happen these days. >> thank you to c-span to be here tonight for future rebroadcast also please stick around for the reception and the new book of andrew selee is here for sale t17b17. [applause]

[inaudible conversations] >> the soul of america i have heard him discuss it is about the history of this country and how we have come through tough times and i understand by the book review it is inspiring and i cannot wait to read it i also hope to read a new biography it is called the age of eisenhower with the university of virginia and

when i was a little boy i had the honor to meet dwight eisenhower he is always inspired me and is now rated as one of the best presidents in american history and i will also read the chris matthews biography bobby kennedy. i think chris matthews has done an excellent job in this regard in the course to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the tragic assassination of senator kennedy so these are three books at the top of my list to be this summer

>> so what we do at some point as cornell lasted on to say is small exercise is not to play

jokingly that creative in us a shared commonality and to carry this life in this moment right here right now is all that we have in the infinite expansion. so i feel that it will not need many of you with much hope after this talk but something far more dangerous or disconcerting or traumatic or what i suggested is compatible when it comes to discussing race where concepts like this we must not dare to be adventurous and remain in place but without the plenty of the years and with

courageous professions with race and experience we must allow the strength those unpredictable spaces of those norms and that embodied orientation. and then be vulnerable to be wounded and rethink how we are already touching. and with courageous discussing we must ask more of white people as a necessary death i'm not talking about physical death but white denial or ignorance or arrogance or narcissism into two white

privilege or self-righteousness to those white delusions of safety and adapt to non- complicity all of those tricks that white people play with themselves to convince themselves they are fine and the good ones in the sophisticated ones. i know while others listen courageously requires to publish a piece on trade on martin the article generated over 600 comments that your stock in trade in your vision of justice is payback you color your racial hatred and that makes you a racist and very evil you accuse me of i

read it on a summers evening you write like one the rizzo special place in hell for those that lead others astray say hi to hitler when you get there. that was a nice one. [inaudible conversations] >> good evening everyone. tonight we are pleased to welcome peter stark. and his book illuminates the time in george washington's life is often overlooked the years that made him the leader of our country as an adventure writer and resides in missoula