store and with the help of gci cable the c-span boss visited alaska, anchorage was the final stop on the tour. >> america's democracy is functional and provides a common understanding what is going on but also provides a window into watching that those of us this is a far distance away can see what is occurring. >> we really believe it's important to offer these to our customers because we believe in the next mission to be in unfiltered and trusted media source. the probably support their efforts and educate the nation on policies, politics, history and current events. >> be sure to join us in july 21 and 22 when we will feature our visit to alaska. alaska weekend on c-span, c-span .org or listen on the c-span radio app. >> president trumps of the internal revenue service and

he's a beverly hills taxidermy talks about his strategy to reform the trust in the irs and in plummeting the new tax law. democratic members criticized him and comments made by vice president mike pence on the possibility of ending the enforcement of the johnson amendment which permits political activity by churches and charities. committee members also asked about how he would handle identity theft and fraudulent tax returns, modernizing the agency, and dealing with an aging workforce within the department. one hour 45 minutes. [inaudible conversations]

>> the committee from to order. i'd like to welcome everyone to today's hearing on the defending nomination of charles reddick. he's been nominated to serve as the irs commissioner and a very important position in this country. right now the irs is at a critical juncture. the iraqi people are already seen. of benefits thanks to the tax reform as unemployment continues to drop and wages rise. from the irs we will be responsible for lamenting these new policies smoothly and efficiently so that new so that the new laws for benefit can be

more quickly realized. after years of turmoil and controversy i am hopeful that the irs is finally started turning the corner however with the larger or with a large governmental organization like the irs there is always room for improvement. take, for example, the problems with aging technological services. some of the irs information technology dates back to the kennedy administration. i'm surprised they have -- it would inhibit with them working coherently with 21st century that currently powers our country and much of the rest of the world. if confirmed expect mr. reddick to work with congress to modernize the irs info structure in technology to bring the agency into our 21st century. another major issue is that the

irs has aging workforce and right now the majority of the irs workforce is over the age of 50 and nearing retirement. if the majority of the workforce were to retire at or around the same time the irs would face a shortage of knowledge in experience. if confirmed i hope that this terrific will work with congress immediately to plan for the agencies future and as irs continues to implement tax reform they must work to issue regulations and ensure that the taxpayers have certainty and protect ability with this new law. they must also work in congress to ensure that the new laws implement and and administered as congress has intended. the challenges i have been rated are greater that anyone commissioner and will set the time for the workforce and

alongside congress to thoroughly and fairly implement and enforce the new tax laws we must also remember the taxes some relies on great part of voluntary compliance and the system works best when american taxpayers trust the agency and are able to easily contact the irs to receive timely and complete answers to their questions. in short,or if confirmed mr. rettig has worked out his work cut out for him but i'm optimistic he's up for this job and if confirmed will lead the agency with integrity and i feel quite confident about that. that said should the irs slip-up or fail to live up to the high standards congress has set this committee will hold the irs accountable as it always has. at the same time when the irs ask and respond properly with us

the irs will find a new better friend than this committee and regardless of democrats or republicans. after all we recognize just how important it is that our taxes are collected fairly, efficiently and in compliance with what congress intended when we wrote our tax laws. want to thank mr. rettig for being here and his willingness to start and he has decades of experience revisiting taxpayers before the irs and he knows the agency inside and out due to his years of work in stakeholder groups. he brings unnecessary passion andca dedication that this role will require. i'm confident that he will be a trustworthy, responsive and earnest partner with congress and this committee as we pursue our shared mission to improve the agency and i do want to thank our acting commissioner cotter who is done a tremendous job atnd the irs. however, that is not we

confirmed mr. potter to do and now more than ever we need him back doing full-time job at the treasury department and before we begin today i want to clear something up. there have been inaccurate press reports passed on leak committee documents that the nominee did not disclose proper at the trump international property in hawaii. now this is absurd. it is false. we should put this matter to rest right now. he purchased these properties in 2006 on the committee questionnaire and that is a fact. he is been honest and forthright with this committee at every stage of the vetting process and the dispute here pertains to the additional details in denoting the name on the side of the building. second any suggestion there's a conflict of interest here is the

stuff of conspiracy theories. many want to argue that mr. rettig purchased these properties in 2006 during season five of the credits on the off chance that mr. trump would become president and nominate him to be irs commissioner. i noticed that you feel the same way i do and that that is silly. i hope we can put that matter to rest and move on to the substance of this morning's confirmation hearing. finally i want to note that an executive business meeting for this time and if at any point during the hearing a suitable quorum is present i intend to posit hearing and move immediately to votes on the nominations of mr. jeffrey kessler, ms. lynn johnson, ms. elizabeth copeland and mr. patrick [inaudible]. thereafter, we will resume our hearing.

i'm pleased to turn to my partner, senator wyden for his opening remarks. >> thank you mr. chairman. the next irs commissioner is going to be in charge of administrating the tax system that is broken in two. there is one set of rules in america for the cop on the beat or the worker on the factory line. strict rules, no special loopholes, taxes come straight out of your paycheck. then there is another set of rules in america for the high flyers and under that system with the right advice from costly advisors you can effectively payay what you want when you want to. mr. rettig, nominated by the president to be the irs, seems to have made a career on giving advice to a lot of those high flyers. the biggest policy challenge he will walk into, if confirmed as

commissioner, is implement in the extremely, gated trump tax laws which does a whole lot more to the high flyers and the well-connected than it does for everybody else. given that fact in my view it is up to mr. rettig to demonstrate that if confirmed he will work on behalf of america particularly hard-working, middle-class families at the restaurants and grudges that make up our community. the guy on the street, as mr. rettig talked about in our meetings earlier this week. now, on another matter if you have studied the nixon presidency you know that there is a dark history of the white whhouse abusing the irs for political purposes. it will be particularly important for mr. rettig to demonstrate his independence

given that mr. rettig did not fully disclose to the finance committee staff that the condos he owns and runs out in a trump granted and managed property and on the matter of my good friend the chairman touched on leaks on this kind of discussion i would only say that last night there was a memo to the committee members coming from the chairman and myself making it clear that we wanted all members to understand what was the issue with the condos and they being rented out in a trump property. having said that disclosing that information may not have been required by law and my view is it would have been a smart exercise of judgment.

certainly, if you want to eliminate any questions about appearances you can sell the properties off. setting aside even that financial relationship and admitting to independence is critically important and this administration often seems to make tax decisions for political reasons rather than policy reasons and that is a recipe for the swampy corruption that makes people i lose faith in institutions like the irs. for example, the zones were changed at the behest of a well connected republican voter in nevada. this was a donor who wanted a combination and he got it. in the state of vermont there

were t a similar change it was denied. there are reports of the trump administration can introduce a new untested tax form a that wil make the experience of filing returns even more of a headache for many americans particularly senior citizens. when the debate closed most americans would not be able to fire at file contrary to what was promised. they decided to cram the same amount of tax amount onto a smaller form anyway. that means many taxpayers will have to rifle through complicated new sets of instructions to catch multiple schedules and, in my view, it certainly is likely to generate more errors. the new forms are going to for many taxpayers be set up to failure. one last point, recently the vice president said that the johnson amendmentn which bars tax-exempt emanations from campaigning against clitoral content political and i am quoting the vice president of the united states here will

longer be enforced under this administration and i recognize that this is a priority of the far right and people ought to understand it's a recipe for even more dark money going into our next political system and i feel strongly that the next irs commissioner has got to be in charge of enforcing the laws on the books despite the vice president pledge that in effect that will not be the case. running the irs involves managing tens of thousands and he is decades of experience and will also be a concern that he doesn't have an extensive management experience. he will be asked about that as he knows today. i appreciate his willingness to serve and i think him for

joining the committee and mr. chairman, as always, look forward to working with you. >> thank you, senator. i appreciate working with you very much. i'd like to extend a warm welcome to mr. charles rettig for joining us and soon we will hear from mr. rettig who is currently working at the firm [inaudible]. he has were presented clients before the internal revenue service and the tax division of the department of justice and numerous state and federal taxing authorities. mr. rettig has served on the advisory board and the advisory council of the california state board of equalization and the internal revenue service advisory council. he is currently the vice chair for administration in the section of taxation of the american bar association and previously served as the chair for the section of taxation of the california bar.

throughout his career he is specialized in federal and state civil tax and criminal tax controversy matters and tax litigation including tax related examinations in investigations for individuals business enterprises, partnerships and limited liability companies and corporations. mr. rettig received his bachelors of degree of economics from the university of california of los angeles and [inaudible] from pepperdine university. he went on to earn an llm in taxation from new york university. as i am sure everyone here looks forward to hearing from mr. rettig and how he plans to integrate his best experience with his new role at the agency if confirmed. gawithout further do mr. rettig, please begin with your opening remarks.

>> chairman hatch, ranking member wyden, it is an honor to appear before the senate finance committee is a president's nominee to serve as the next commissioner of the internal revenue service. before proceed i like to recognize my family were here with me today. my wife, my sister-in-law, my other sister along with her husband michael, my stepsons, my daughter and my son and i cannot explain the degree and extent of their love and support for me today and throughout my professional and personal career mean to meet. personally, i would not be here, in my mind, without the ongoing support of my family. i need to also recognize two of my, three of my law partners who were here today, too who flew out from los angeles last evening and her head back this afternoon. steve, dennis and ed are here. my mentor inaw the practice of w and i'm very close family friend and another very, very close family friend.

it is a sport of my friends attend friendships that allow me to be here today and things that i haves a compass to my life. my son, charlie, who is sitting behind me, serves as a captain in united army and returns monday evening from a 12 month deployment overseas. it was nominated he probably pointed out that dad, i'm so proud you will be following me into government service and nothing would make me more proud than to follow my son into government service. i do not previously have that opportunity i look forward to, if confirmed, having that opportunity going forward. i also learned something from my son. this tax season i was pressing him while he was serving overseas to get the information to the accountant in order to appear is returned in response i got was dad, i have 180 days

from when i return from the combat zone in the sinai peninsula to submit my income tax returns. it is nice to get your tax advice from your army captain, son. i would also like to knowledge my father who had a one truck air-conditioning business and taught my brother and i the value of hard work and getting up early and working late and not complaining. i was the first in my family to finish college and through undergraduate school, law school and graduate school my family often joked i would never stop studying and they were right. for more than 35 years i worked at all levels of the irs to achieve resolutions on behalf of taxpayers and bring them back into compliance with our system of voluntary self-assessment. i served as chair at the irs advisory council and in a similar role in my home state of california. i am currently vice chair in administration for the 12000

members taxation section of the american bar association and serve as president of the american college tax counsel. two decades of expanse working across the table from the irs i have seen the difficulties faced by taxpayers of all kinds from large taxpayers to small businesses to low income tax payers who need help in the when they started problem-solving daysta years ago taxpayers i organized dozens of tax professionals in los angeles and i represented taxpayers who appeared seeking a resolution of a tax issue. i've devoted a significant amount of time who can afford professional help on a pro bono basis. throughout my career i've been privileged to many professionals and hard-working irs employees and if confirmed will be honored to work beside them in earn their respect. despite the challenges it faces the irs is fortunate to have a committed workforce committed to

its mission. in my career seen the impact of those challenges for stand and long waits on the telephone, inadequate it systems are significant issues of frustration for both the internal revenue service workforce as well as taxpayers. if confirmed i would hope to work with his committee to take on these and other challenges that impact taxpayers across the board. we cannot fall into apa trap of fallin --we must work together e them. if i am privileged to serve as commissioner, my overriding goal is to strengthen and rebuild the trust between the irs, their american people and their representatives in congress. that trust is critical to all that the irs does particularly as it works with the department of treasuryir to implement oncen a generation tax reform legislation enacted by congress last year. the successful implementation of that landmark reform bill will be our highest priorities including that t [inaudible] tht

more and more kaplan who at the age of 101 we believe it's the duty of our service to apply the laws passed by congress and perform this work in a fair and impartial manner with neither a government or taxpayer point of view and i'm grateful for the opportunity to testify look forward to yourit questions. >> thank you so much. we are grateful you're willing to take on this assignment. it is not an easy one and it is one that plenty of controversy. i do have obligatory questions that i will have to ask. first, is there anything you are aware of in her background that might present a conflict of interest with the duties of the office to which you have been nominated? >> no. >> do know of any reason personal or otherwise that would

in any way prevent you from performing and honorably discharging the duties of the office to which been nominated? >> no. >> do agree without reservation to respond to any reasonable summons and to appear and testify before any constituted committee of the congress if you are confirmed? >> yes. >> finally, do commit to provide a proper response in writing to any questions have dressed you byve any senator of this committee? >> yes. >> that is great. mr. roddick, the irs stands at a crossroads, both in terms of challenges and responsibilities, in terms of challenges if confirmed you'll run an agency that has enormous responsibility and it touches every single american in every business. nearly every function of the government depends on the revenue of the irs collects.

at the same time it has an aging information technology infrastructure and an aging workforce. real and serious changes are needed and this committee is working to help with that. the irs has a lead role in implementing and a primary role in administrating the aging workforce and i have to say a real and serious challenge or changes are needed in this committee is working to help with that. the irs has a lead role in implementing in a primary role in administrating the largest tax overhaul in a generation which delivers tax relief and supplication for taxpayers across theac country. mr. roddick, this is a challenge, it's not one that a lot of people willingly accept,

why are you dumb enough to accept it? y [laughter] why do you want this role and are you up to this particular challenge. i know you're not done so please forgive me for my out-of-control sense of humor. >> chairman, i've a deep respect for the internal revenue service for this country and fork this flag and the people who worked for the internal revenue service. i respect the fact that the irs is a critical component of the success of this country and i am committed to giving. my best efforts to make the internal revenue service the best agency that it can be. >> i think that is what you have been nominated and from what i see you are very capable of doing that. under president obama this committee led the main bipartisan question into the

political bias and issued the only bipartisan report on the matter. congress has long been concerned with questions of political bias at the irs which have been a serious issue across the agency's history. most notably in the kennedy, nixon and obama administrations. if confirmed, do you pledge to lead the irs without regard to partisan political bias or inappropriate influence? >> absolutely. >> the internal revenue service has never been a particularly popular agency and its reputation has been challenged in recent years. how do you intend to restore america's faith and trust in the irs and do you consider it important to build a better relationship between irs and the taxpayers? ... a

>> interested in becoming commissioner is to rebuild the trust in that agency to confirm to the american taxpayers that the internal revenue service is impartial, nonbiased and color blind for all purposes. >> great. the use of the irs of ancient computer equipment is something that we have commonly noted. despite everyone being aware of the necessity of updating equipment at the irs, substantial progress here remains elusive. what are your plans to update the technology needs at the irs, and how are you going to accomplish that? >> the modernization of the irs i.t. system and bringing the i.t. system into the 21st century is one of my top goals. i thinky that the -- it serves two purposes. it serves not only the protection of taxpayer data, that i believe universally we all agree is a principal concern, but also modernizing the i.t. system serves to enhance services the taxpayers

in this country deserve. >> okay. how will you use your longtime experience as a tax attorney, especially one that's been on the other side of the courtroom from they irs, to help better perform your duties at the irs? >> i've been a -- >> as the irs commissioner, really. >> i've been a consumer, on the consumer side of the irs and a stakeholder ofof working with te irs at virtually every level from field level agents and revenue officers up through to the corner offices of the internal revenue service. so i o think i have a pretty god understanding of the operations of the irs and the various roles, the different levels that the irs play in trying to efficiently move tax administration in this country with an eye toward the benefits of tax a biers -- taxpayers. >> okay. i think my time is basically up, so we'll turn to the ranking member. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. mr. rettig, letan me start with this comment of the vice president. vice president pence said in may

that the johnson amendment which prohibits the 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations like churches from campaigning for or against political candidates will, andni i quote here, no longer be enforced under this administration. i'd like to give you the opportunity as we begin this hearing to respond to the vice president of the united states. who is going to be in charge if you're confirmed as commissioner, who's going to be in charge of the irs? will it be the vice president of the united states, or will it be you? >> if i am confirmed, i will be in charge of the internal revenue service and will make sure that the internal revenue service move forward, follow the law in an impartial, non-biased manner.

>> do you find the vice president's statement troubling? isn't that sending a message, an inherently political message when what we want whether it's democrats or republicans, whether we want the law enforced, isn't that a troubling message? >> as the nominee, i can really only speak to my viewpoint of what would happen if i was to operate the internal revenue service as commissioner if confirmed, and i confirm to you and i pledge to this committee impartial, non-biased operation from the internal revenue service from top to bottom. >> i understood your answer, but i think every american -- democrats, republicans, whatever your political philosophy -- ought to be very troubled that the vice president thinks he can make a statement like that. that this administration is, in effect, above the law, that the law is not what matters. what matters is political muscle. let me move on to the question

of the president's tax returns and particularly this matter of being under audit. ing the president stated for over ten years now that he can't release his individual tax return because he's been under these continuous audits. in your 35 years of representing certainly many high income taxpayers, complicated business arrangements, have you ever represented anybody who was under continuous audit for ten years or more? >> we have had taxpayers, both individuals and entities, that have had multiple-year -- >> the question is ten years. >> that's where i was going, senator. i personally cannot recall a ten-year examination, but i'm not particularly -- i have no information about the audit with respect to the president. >> so how would one even get in a place of having ten years'

worth of audits? i mean, i find it incredulous that somebody could be under a continuous audit unless they had made nor mouse mistakes -- made enormous mistakes on their tax returns over and over again. and my assumption is likessionals in the field yourself would never let that happen. so i find it very hard to buy the president's excuse that he has been making all these months for not releasing his returns. but how would one even get in a position like this? >> my, from my experience, i would say that the more complex the return, the longer it takes to get an examination completed. but again, i have no familiarity with the president's returns itself. >> i'd like to have you amplify

on that, because i just find this an incredulous excuse. and you told me, essentially, that this doesn't happen very often. it happens sometimes -- >> in my practice. >> yeah, right. it happens sometimes. and my view is you only get there by makinging enormous mistakes, and professionals wouldn't make that possible. now, i'm going to read you something that goes to this question of fairness for working class people. tell me if it sounds familiar. wealthy taxpayers often engage teams of tax business and state planning lawyers, accountants and other professionals to oversee their business activities and to legitimately arect minimize their potential x liability. does that sound familiar? >> it does. >> okay. now, you identified earlier this week the past-through deduction

as one area where guidance is badly needed from the irs. and that's a provision that is so confusing that tax consultants are already t feastg on planning opportunities for their wealthiest clients. given the right opportunities for tax planning and tax evasion, frankly, created under the new republican tax law, how are youer going to combat the kd of aggressive tax planners you were tryingry to describe your feelings about in that quote i gave you? >> that quote relates to the fact that, you know, taxpayers have -- wealthy taxpayers have teams of representatives handling their returns. typically, a taxpayer who desires to cheat is not going to go to a group of tax professionals to put some structure or together to do something. that's not universal, but that's typical -- >> but i'm over my time, so i just need you to tell me briefly

how you would combat those who were trying to wring every possible advantage out of this, in effect, to find holes in the law. >> for me, it would be critical for the irs to provide clear, timely, succinct guidance as to what the positions are and what the intent of congress was with respect to each of the provisions in the -- >> on the next round, we'll talk about what that clear guidance ought to be. thank you, mr. chairman. >> senator portman. >> thank you, mr. chairman, i appreciate your having the hearing today. and, mr. rettig, you and i have had a chance to visit on a number of issues including, as the chairman indicated, our appreciation that you're willing to step up and serve. i also want to, if i could, mention army captain charlie rettig again who just came back, you said, from a 12-month deployment in a combat zone. i'm going to embarrass him and ask him to stand up just for a second, because i'd like to give him a round of applause. [applause]

he's right, you're following him in service, and although it's not combat, it's going to be a tough job. [laughter] >> i think it is combat. [laughter] >> yeah. so you and i talked a lot about irs reform, and one reason i'm excited about having a commissioner in place, i think it's an opportunity for this committee, working with you and the ways and means committee, to make some changes at the irs again. we did this 20 years ago with a big restructuring and reform act.ea it came after a commission was formed actually by this body. i co-chaired that with senator bob kerrey, as you know. and along with senate ben cardin, who is coming in a moment, will be here, we introduced legislation that senator c hatch took a leadershp role on as did senator wyden in his role then on the committee. and what we did was we said, okay, the irs is not functioning to help taxpayers at that time, you know, only half of the calls were being answered when a taxpayer would call the irs.

and they'd spent about $3 billion on an i.t. system that wasn't working, wasn't talking to each other, it was a big waste. so we undertook this series of reforms, 52 different new taxpayer rights were added and so on. irs oversight board. so half the calls were being returned back in that period. we passed the legislation. within ten years instead of half the calls being returned, 83% of calls were being answered. so that was a big improvement. and all the ratings you looked at, you know, which agency or department do you feel is doing a good job for the taxpayer, the irs was at the bottom. we started the reforms, be by the time ten years were up, it was about halfway up the ladder, which isn't bad for the tax collection agency. i will say, you know, here we are ten years later and, unfortunately, we're kind of back to a situation where taxpayers are noting being serv. by 2015, just three years ago, only 37% of calls were being

answered. today i understand it's back closer to 50%. but way unacceptable. first of all, do you agree with me on that? >> i agree that america's taxpayers should have their telephones answered if they call the internal revenue service. i think that's critical not only for whatever the reason they're calling, i think it's critical for them to earn the respect of thee agency they're interacting nwith when they get efficient ad timely responses. >> that'sti not the only measurement. another measurement would be how many taxpayers can come in and actually get an answer from a person, and that's also declined. another issue i know that senator cardin and i are look at is the appeals process. we believe it's been more truncated since 20 years ago with the reforms in place, and we need to get back to a system people feel like they have an absolute right to appeal. there's other issues as well, but one that you and i talked a lot about in our meeting was the irs oversight board. this is something that senator

kerrey w felt very strongly abo. service sector expertise, management expertise and, frankly, i think it started off pretty well and then, because of lack of support by every administration, frankly, along the way it kind of fell to the wayside. and the idea was not to have to have a commission every 20 years and not to have to have a process we need to undergo again this next couple years hopefully with y a new commissioner in place, hopefully with you. but to have this commission perform that role of oversight and insuring that we stayed on track, there are literally no members of the commission right now. not a single member's been appointed. and, again, this goes back administrations. the obama administration was no more supportive really than the clinton administration was, than the bush administration, than the current administration. so what do you think about the irs oversight board? was it a good idea or a bad idea? do you think it should be resurrected, and do you think it has a role to may? >> i'm in favor of oversight by

the irs oversight board, by this committee, by others. i think that it assists in the transparency of the operations of the internal revenue service as well as providing assistance. as commissioner, i would look forward to getting ideas from everybody. and more ideas the better. and then we'll work on the ideas collectively. >> well, i appreciate that answer, and i do think that if you're confirmed, that this committee's going to be very interested in working with you on ira reform, and i hope -- irs reform, and i hope that will be part of the discussion. on the idea ofis having an independent appeals process, do you support taxpayers having access to an independent appeals process? >> absolutely. >> thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you, mr. chairman. congratulations, mr. rettig, in your nomination. as you know, new jersey joined 32 other states and d.c. by recently passing a law that

authorizes towns and cities to create charitable funds and provide tax credits to encourage donations. but in an advisory notice released in may, it seems to me that the irs has arbitrarily singled out new programs like new jersey and warned that taxpayers could face penalties if they write off deductions, write off their donations, i should say. this fundamentally flaw advisory contradicts decades of precedent and case law all the way up to the supreme court and discriminates against states apparently based on political affiliation. is sos my question to you, if you're confirmed as the irs commissioner, would you adhere to the principles of federalism and states' rights and respect the authority of states to set their own tax policiesome -- policy? >> if i'm confirmed as commissioner of the internal revenue service, we will follow the law impartially, in a non-biased manner. and as i believe i've indicated previously, nobody should presuppose my position on any

particular issue across the board, thatsu the internal revee service will appropriately look into the facts, look at the relevant policies, procedures, prior guidance that has been issued and, i believe, come to the accurate conclusion in issuing whatever guidance the internal revenue service is to issue. >> well, i appreciate that. if 32 other states and the district of columbia already have the same exact principle and it is in in effect and it has been upheld by the irs, would you see any reason to discriminate against another state if, in fact, they are doing the very same essence of what those 32 other states are doing? >> it's not an issue that, in my practice, i have dealt with. but in the press that i have read with respect to the issue, it's my understanding that there's the possibility that the post-tax act situation could be not on all fours with the earlier position taken by the internal revenue service in the 2010 chief come notice. that could be explored. >> as you know, i raised this

with you when you came to visit me, and i do appreciate you visited me. you told me you didn't know much then, and i gave you a very early warning that i'd be asking you these questions at this hearing. so this is a serious issue that can raise property tax burdens and sow confusion for hundreds of thousands of new jerseyans, and they're going to deserve a clear answer. so, again, would you undermine new jersey's law and deny people the deductions for these charitable contributions if they're in line with 32 other states and the district of columbia that are doing this right now and that the irs has upheld? >> senator, i think as we both know the irs and treasury are both working on guidance. my incentive with respect to the guidance would be that it be accurate, impartial, non-biased and clear and issued timely. and it should not be lost on the committee that, although your comments relate to new jersey, i happen to be from the state of california which is working on a similar situation. and i would still look at it in

a non-biased, impartial manner. >> well, let me give you some background. in 2011 the irs chief counsel released an advisory memo clarifying that state credits do not -- i repeat, do not -- prohibit taxpayers from writing off the full value of their charitable donations. in other words, getting a tax break doesn't mean you earn more money and, thus, you shouldn't be taxed more as a result. the supreme court confirmed this interpretation ruling that state tax credits given for charitable donations are r not considered a thing of value and, rather, are, i quote, the government declining to impose a tax. i think we can all agree it's illogical, impractical and fundamentally backwards to tax people on the value of a tax break they received. in some states tax lawyers and accountants have bragged about how they're using their program to circumvent the property tax cap. for example, in alabama football advisers --mp financial advisers explain that nations are, i

quote, treated as if you treat taxes for federal purposes, you donation will be reported as a charitableer contribution, otherwise it would be reported as a s.a.l.t. deduction and provide no10 tax benefit to you. and these efforts to maximize deductions were common even before the trump tax bill gutted the property tax deduction. indeed, highef priced tax lawyes and accountants in georgia have been for years urging their clients to shift their tidentityized deductions in orr to avoid the alternative minimum tax. so are alabama and georgia's programs in compliance with the law and irs rules? >> i think you're aware i'm not specifically aware of the alabama and georgia programs themselves, and i think that when we met, you raised an issue that perhaps the current situation, the difference between credits and deductions -- and i'm not sure that that's a difference that -- >> chairman, you're tapping before my time is even up. >> your time is up. [laughter] >> well, it is up now, but not

when you were tapping. can i hear the balance of the answer at least? >> you could have -- >> blood pressure, i think both -- mr. chairman, i think both of us went about a minute or so over. could senator menendez have that too? >> sure, i'm not going to -- >> i appreciate the chairman's courtesy. >> but don't accuse me of -- i tapped that to let you know you're near the end so that we don't have the carryovers that have prolonged this committee unnecessarily. go ahead. >> senator, i'm aware of your concern with respect to this issue and the concern of others with respect toe this issue and the concern of taxpayers across the country with respect to these issues, and i would look forward to a resolution that universally people could say is the right resolution. >> well, i'll just close on this: the one thing i don't want toto see is the irs weaponized against states like mine. it's east good for everybody, the 32 states that have been doing it and the district of columbia, or it's good for nobody. so i hope that you will seriously look at this in that

manner, because otherwise we will feel we are being treated unjustly simply because we are the state that we are. thank you, mr.r. chairman. >> senator cardin. >> i think senator cardin's actually here ahead of me. let him go ahead. please. [inaudible conversations] [laughter] >> so courteous. thank you. >> i'll never make this mistake again. i just want to say welcome today and to you and your family, i'm a vietnam veteran, special pleasure to have you here, and we welcome you to our country. and i hope we will welcome more often others from other countries to our country. it's that spirit we could use around here these days. we talked -- thanks for coming by yesterday. we talked a good bit about adequate funding for the irs. we just passed a tax bill last year that's going to increase the budget deficit by a couple of trillion dollars over the next ten years. we'reof spending -- our deficits already at enormous levels, and it's going to climb higher.

it's a matter of great concern to me, and i know it is to you and my colleagues. one of the ways we could actually reduce the deficit and increase revenues without raising any rates at all would be to actually fund the irs. and what you've seen is reductions in funding over, i think the last several years, by almost 20%. the number of employees down by double digits. your thoughts about this, please, and what would you do to try to turn that around? >> well, first, i believe it's the responsibility of the irs to expend any funds that are received in a very responsible, forthright, efficient manner. i think that that is critical to obtaining the trust of the american people. if confirmed and if i'm in the position as commissioner, one of my top priorities would be to analyze the budget of the internal o revenue service, work force-related issues, training-related issues, all of which encompass from -- on the outside, all of which encompass the probability of the need for additional resources, funding resources, possibility of additional work force. i'm a huge believer in training

the work force there so that they are the best on the planet. i think that we need to universally get onboard with the revenue of the internal service so they can provide top quality service to america's taxpayers. that's where i'm coming from. >> good, thank you. former commissioner john koskinen, who i thought was a hero, he's greatly criticized especially by folks on the other, in the other body. but i iti thought for somebody like him to come out of retirement at the age of almost 70 to tak on a thankless, tough job likee this, that he deserves our kudos, not our -- [inaudible] but he repeatedly called on congress to reauthorize and streamline critical pay program, but to no a avail. can you inform the committee on your screws of the streamline -- views. and in the absence of this authority, what your plans are for insuring that irs is able to attract top-flight talent especially given that the spongoing cybersecurity and identity theft threats are

growing ever more prevalently? >> particularly with respect to the i.t. side of the operation, i think it's publicly known that the internal revenue service, the system gets attacked between 2-3 million times a day, i think it's critical to the success of this country and to the a appearance and trust that the american taxpayers have in the internal revenue service that we have a system that defends taxpayer data better than any other system on the planet. and if in the absence of critical care pay scales, i think it's a significant effort on my part and other members of the internal revenue service to encourage not only the work force that's there to remain and want to remain there and be proud of remaining there, but to encourage people on the outside, recruit from the outside the benefits of government service which is actuallyne what i'm dog today. be proud to be serving. >> thank you. ..

if i could let your views on this please. >> i believe that people will prepare tax returns with others. for the returns that they are preparing in the training and the typical regulation is critical. the it programs i heard him

say as much as the 400 million-dollar upgrade. is that something that you'd you would be inclined to support. from the press on the outside and what we see. the american taxpayers deserve the most up-to-dateme it system. the air can say it looks pretty good on paper. maybe swiss army. just a quick word on your management experience. a lot of people have managed that. a the skills of leadership in creating teams and that the leader facilitates the ability to perform to their cap capabilities.

i perceive myself as pretty good people person. i'm open to providing criticism as well. i thank you very much for your f program to serve. you have a very distinguished career in understanding the tax laws -- tax laws. i think you for your willingness to get involved in this area. i think your family. i want to follow up on some of the comments that were made by senator portman. on tax administration. but i wanted to start with the budget that senator carper ask you about. a series of budget years. the only reason you have an increase in this year's budget was to implement a new tax law. it did not deal with the underlining capacityy which in

the within the irs itself. i appreciate the fact that you recognized you have to live within the funds that are appropriated i want you to do that. but i also want to know whether you would be an advocate on behalf of the men and women in the professional people that are there serving their country and trying to make sure our tax laws are administered fairly. they would have the resources they need in the support they need in order to be able to carry out their mission -- mission. will you be that type of adequate -- advocate? >> people who had known me theeo last word they would characterize me is shy. the committee any american taxpayers should anticipate that i will not on every door possible. d and you will be prepared to tell us directly those needs

so that we as an independent branch of government can get that information. this committee will hear from me directly. >> i want to underscore some of the points on legislation that is moving through here. several times you mentioned that you want to make sure that they are adequatelyak trained to deal with the complexities. in the needs of the taxpayer. there is legislation that would establish. as you probably are aware. they are some of the first to be cut. will you work with us to protect the resources that go into training to make sure your people are adequately trained.tt there is also a program as you know that deals with low income tax payers.

you already answered a question on tax preparers. i think we really need to make sure that they are protected.th using consumers as a part business. the private debt collection usually ends up causing us more money than we raise. as one of the methods. that we could try to resolve this issue as to the private debt collection. the last issue i want to talk about. and the ranking democrat on the small business committee. we had been and received a great deal of interest from the small business community as the tax laws.

for the change in the tax code and now since the change we've heard a lot more as to how small businesses will be able to deal with the changes that will be made. we had have a lot of concern about the tax preference for business income for small businesses. would you be prepared at our request in order to work on ways that we can help small businesses t deal with the complexities of our tax code that was there before the tax reform but now it made more complicated by the passage of this law. i grew up in a small business. i believe it's the backbone of this country.. mister chairman. i will yield back. the balance of my time. in that order i will call on you. i will end the first round.

abi well have a second round. thanks for coming in. i enjoyed the meeting in my office. i have it exchange with the action. my identity was still ones. it still has complications in terms of how we file and when we receive art dollars back. the significant reduction. $1.4million. about 600,000 this year. but what thoughts do you have as to how we can move that $600,000 which cost us billions of dollars in rdaudulent returns down towards i'm proud of the fact that they have made a dent. it would still be too much. any identity theft is too much. there are issues.

if the irs was a lot more time and they could prevent more idaho theft. i am told that my return i had three children which formally rthad had three. to issue refunds and i believe that the as part of the issue. to be dealt with. i share the concern that any identity theft is there. they are considering some irs administration reforms. a single point of contact. with the victim could call

notifying taxpayers when idaho theft is expected. and the expansion of the program. any thoughts on those. the single point of contact is critical. for those who have suffered i.d. theft.le i think a single point of contact would be significant. i think a significant part of this in the function within that. those who might consider going down that road. make them aware of the fact that they could be looking at a significant prison circumstance. that is is going to get out on my community. and presumably some you know.

just to kind of reverberate. i think it is critical. and i understand that there is contemplation of different social security numbers and things associated with that. we can remember the social security number as we don't remember that. even getting into government buildings. sometimes most of us have to start at the beginning to get to the last four. the possibility of issuing new social security numbers. they might also generate some respect. the treasury and we talk about the return review program. to improve fraud detection. it has been implemented in

recent years. a treasury idaho for tax administration reports from september 17 noted the irs may not need its september 18 target. again i had been there. how could you prioritize full implementation. i'm not personally familiar with the system. it would be a high priority with me. as they have taken the pilot program to reduce fraud and idaho theft. i understand 24 states participated in 2017 it seems reasonable to expand that. your views on that. i am an advocate of information sharing with other similar state agencies. i think that's critical. i

lastly i will say i'm pleased to see the irs has improved customer service but still i think one in five people calling never get their phone call answered what can we do to improve that. i believe it's critical when they call the irs they receive some answers. any ideas on how to improve. i'm aware of other states that has the ability when you call in you get a recording. if you would leave your number we would call will call you back in three minutes. i think that it would be if that's possible. that type of a system. not only in terms of getting the person off the phone. with respect to the agency.

as of the private sector operates the same. i would like to see the irs working with the committee.rk they'll be great. thank you very much. >> senator whitehouse. good to see. the irs has a history about how to be used as a political weapon we have a president who apparently is demanding loyalty of folks who are appointed we witness the administration leaning on the independent regulators.

to try to impose their well. that combination of factors raises the question of how they are. have they made any loyalty pledges. along the spectrum of yielding to political pressure when it's brought to bear on you versus being independent as commissioner where do you expect he would fall on that spectrum. i would hope that the members of this committee and the american taxpayers. our more so. one of the problems we talked about in my office is the problem of shell corporations they are used for tax avoidance and invasion.

telling investigators and looking into tax fraud and when they look bump up against a shell corporation they ought to really redouble their efforts. with respect to the shell corporation. let me know your thoughts. dealing with them and in those two ways. if confirmed.th i would be a vocal advocate for the strength of the enforcement revenue service. in my background criminal investigation does not back down from a challenge. the appreciate a challenge and

they move forward. would you be willing to make a report to us once you've been in for a while and got a look at this as to how bad the shell corporations problem is from your perspective in terms of law enforcement. great, thank you. there is a collections gap between y what taxpayers owe and what they have there. would it be fair to us to evaluate the commissioner based on what you can do to reduce that number. what i can tell you is a very familiar with the tax gap. underreporting nonfiling and payment. i actually look at the tax gap is somewhat of a road map to tax avoidance in invasion. it has been identified going back to 2001 that was created.

very sensitive to that issue. and i'm sensitive to the need to reduce that issue for a variety of reasons including a little bit more respect. that is another $30 billion per year. and on the other side if we lose that. and they reduce 1%. it's a 30 dollar per year loss. i'm extremely helpful for that. my last question is a lot of work that the irs does is based on truthful reporting by taxpayers if it should come to your attention that a taxpayer is claiming one thing under oath in a filing on its face appears very different.

with other reporting environments. what do you think about that. is that worth a plumbing rework. that's why they were reporting something very different than they were elsewhere. the commissioner is not responsible for audits. with issues like that. the irs itself has its mechanisms in place. should it be something that the irs into. if there continues to be inconsistent reporting to determine whether the irs reporting is there or not. and should it continue to do so? >> it has been my experience that they do. would you tell me about the

ucla extension of that scholarship fund. do you know anything about that. i would probably tell you about that. i created the account fund through ucla through the purpose of the ucla extension with the number two extension program in the world in terms of actual registrations and the scholarship fund is intended to provide them to active duty veterans. came from the situation of you seat reality tv receipt folders folgers folders in the sandbag installation. and maybe playing video games or whatnot. the intent of that count is to allow soldiers serving overseas to actually earn extension credits. when they leave if you been a machine gunner.

and you have the g.i. bill. the ability to go to a college or university in this country. it might be a challenge coming out of the environment that you been in. is to provide active duty soldiers and veterans with the ability to assimilate into ssociety with some financial literacy and accounting and maybe in time they would go to college. but to give them some respect. you are the cofounder of that program. i am chairman of the veterans committee. and it is always great for me to point out a united states citizen who is lending their expertise. and having cowritten the act a few years ago.

the distance learning at the united states military. i understand how valuable it is. you are taking video games out of a soldiers hands. i want to commend you publicly. he would be a good student following your leadership sir. i head in the last seven years been what the pre- file event in atlanta. underemployment center promoting the available software that is made available there. to file and pay and get your income taxes. i've tried to pursue making it permanent. would you give me some idea if you would do that. i would look into in more detail. i'm a huge supporter of whatever makes it easier for tax years to get into compliance. lastly, for my question.

my personal feeling i have paid taxes since april 15, 1959 when i made $40 a week. i have $8.90 withheld from my weekly check. some say when they became a republican. what is relevant about it is i paid him for a long time i personally. it went beyond my ability to do it and felt like i was doing it right. i believe the most recent tax change along with some that took place earlier in tax law has simply by the process of filing and paying income taxes in my wrong or right on that? >> i know from the outside in the press reports we are on

the course. in order to be able to come up with calculus for the actual right or wrong. i agree with that. and i'm talking to you as a taxpayer and not really as a senator it seems like with the enhanced individual production. with some other reductions in the atomization's that took place. where you sign and send it in. maybe within reach of us. i hope that you will work towards completing that task to moving towards simplification. you just said in answering this. with regard to the amount of income we have lost by not people --dash back my not having them pay or file. they are people that aren't filing an art pain. it's an overt act on their

part that they're not getting the money. i would think simplicity would help us to reduce that amount of people who are not paid if you would help us do that. thank you. mister chairman they make the commendable point about simplicity. i hope you will take it seriously. if confirmed you have some heavy lifting to do because after all of the ballyhoo about how the administration was point to went to get taxes on a postcard apparently for a lot of people you would have to complete six schedules in order to be part of such a drill. you will have some heavy lifting for that. i hope what you will do is focus on the small business guidance on the pass through

provision which looks like it is literally from fantasyland in terms of trying to figure out with a small businesses and april. i hope you will do that rather than continue on other men years -- matters that might make for good publicity in my state and seat and what much of the country is. they are literally crying out for some clarity on what's going to be done. for my next question i would like to turn to the charity area because we we've had strong bipartisan support in this committee. we prosecuted that case for a long time. secretary mnuchin said the bill will encourage more charitable donations. the nonpartisan experts say in their view that the number of

tax player -- payers will be cut by more than a half. and over all charitable giving will decline by as much as $20 billion annually. you probably seen this in the press. a lot of the charities are already speaking out publicly about their concerns.s. and their concerns about the vagueness of the provisions. they don't even know how to comply with most instances. do you have any reason to doubt the findings of this nonpartisan experts who talk about the decline of charitable giving as i had described. i have not reviewed those reports personally so i was really unfair of me to comment on this.rt i believe in the concept of charitable giving. on the management front what is the largest number of

employees that you have managed. >> there 70,000 people who are going to be working at the irs if you're confirmed. i thought your point they give shown leadership and you've shown all these kinds of boards. i would like you to furnish for the record i would like to hear more specifics about what can the management approach you would actually take. there is a big difference between managing 35 and managing 70,000. i would just like that for the record to happen. one last question with respect to the charitable groups and political activities. i thought your answer about the vice president was a good one because i thought that statement he made was way over the line. not even close. that's really trying to

interfere with the impartial tadministration of tax law. i continue to be concerned about these issues. that the trump campaign. with maximum benefits to the trump campaign. you talked about some examples. about the kind of questions that they would have. they look into a lot of matters.

and sometimes we hear about them publicly and sometimes we do not. t the public acknowledgment it is not really service until something gets through the system. the irs doesn't read the newspapers and they do create cases out of what they create in the newspaper. it certainly will get a newspaper like given what has happened recently with the vice president of the united states basically saying that his views were more important than the johnson amendment which prohibits politics from the pulpit. we are in a different kind of time. i look forward to continue to look forward to these. we have some other business to do after senator brown. i appreciate the second round mister chairman.

thank you senator isaacson. i would like to start with that. and thank you for joining us. i like to start with the issue of private debt collection. and it causes more -- cost more than it raises. i have fought against his program at every turn. the taxpayer advocate has said it's unfairly targeted low income individuals. that too i would think all of us it is unacceptable. would you commit to a full review of the private debt collection. the intern with the revenue service. it is part of the law. the issue i think that has surfaced is implementation of the private debt collector law.

i would actually look into that. that they are not being targeted. they had been planning as we talk about. and shut down a branch in covington kentucky. from cincinnati. affecting 800 of my constituents. i don't believe it's fair to me to commit to that. and the reasoning behind terminating the employees but i share your concern with 800 individuals not being employed if they shut down the office and i would commit to you that i would like to that. and work with your office. considering the amount of talk with this. i certainly support i hope my colleagues on the other side of the aisle will as well.

rather than working to reassign that. i appreciate that. i know you have discussed your experience they have done that from the time you are in school since. with their earned income tax credit. it rewards work. every march or april. literally hundreds of thousandss of ohioans because of this refundable tax credit. would get a check of two or $3,000. it's very significant obviously. they have a 93% accuracy rate. describe for us because i think it is so important to have an irs commissioner that has actually practiced this.

tell us about your experience. andrea sure all of us on this committee o that it will work to have the resources necessary and number of tax professionals in this country. they started out seen what the tax ministration was about. rather than taking tax or accounting courses in the college -type environment. college type environment. for many professionals that i know their spark of interest in being involved in tax administration. as you indicated the senator the accuracy relates to the vita programs. the training of the people involved in the programs is significantoln in point on for the purpose of preparing accurate returns which is critical to the success if you

well of the tax administration in this country that returns get prepared as accurately as possible. i so appreciate the work that you have done. i hope we can count on you when there are members of this committee and there are politicians in this town that love to talk and deceitful weight frankly. by playing with numbers about fraud and earned income tax credit.ax so often l what they call fraud is really either underpayment or overpayment that the taxpayer have nothing to do with. they were simple mistakes. it's i'm -- underpayment of refunds. i'm hoping that we can count on you. to defend that and speak out.

thank you very much for being here. in what is somewhat thankless position. i enjoyed the chat. the tax reform measure that would pass. is contributing i think in our miceli record low unemployment. unprecedented facts that there are more than job openings. they revise the growth for the year. to now we are expecting 3.3 percent. our goal to eliminate the lack of effect. on foreign earnings by changing to a more tariff tutorial based service.

on the scale of hundreds of billions of dollars. this is proving to be extremely beneficial but as you know there are still provisions that need rules for implementationpr and i would simply want to ask that you would commit to working with this committee and members of congress to ensure that as any ambiguities are address that you are taking into account the intent of those of us who wrote this legislation so that we get it right for our constituents. if confirmed they would follow the law with intent of what they have. and putting into putting into the law. i look forward to the opportunity. of providing clear concise timely guidance. they can get it right the first time. we also spoke briefly about the compliance.

this is the requirement that foreign financial institutions. many foreign institutions. this is a huge problem for americans abroad. a record number of americans have announced their u.s. citizenshipum because they can just not manage their finances. and also makes it a huge competitive disadvantage for americans who are seeking to work. so can i get a commitment for you.

to find ways to lessen this burden. if i would confirm i would commit to that. and then finally. it struck me as surprising when i learned that they have such few appointed positions. there is a lot of terrific career staff. our understanding as there is a commissioner and a chief counsel in a chief of staff that are the commissioners direct discretionary hires but other than that everybody is a career staff. i just wonder if it when it be better for the commissioner to be able to assemble his or her own management team to a greater extent. >> i believe that it is currently in place.

i believe that having a private sector experience said that there was a deep understanding of the impact of each step.p.o on american taxpayers in interactions with this committee and others. thank you very much. thank you mister chairman. it was the intention to report for nominees during today's hearing. we will have to move the consideration of these four to the floor later today. i understand the ranking member would like to make a brief statement.nsor i agree with the decision to vote on these nominees off the floor later. we are going to be voting on four nominations as a notice

on obviously key positions. i know that her friends on senator scott has come. what i hold up making my comments. thank you. both very much. the state and the district of columbiaon in the united states to designate those zones in the areas of jurisdiction. securing this provision is a tax bill with the huge legislative went from the units of americans living and struggling in communities.

for the hard work in pushing out the guy let -- the guidance. this provision will help to create permanent positive change that will benefit generations to come. i look for do for their guidance for the investors and entrepreneurs on establishing this.id most likely to drive jobs and economic activity. the opportunity zones had been created by congress to achieve important goals but risk being severely underutilized. two more closely align the guidance and enforcement of congressional entities. in making sure that guidance issued there.

they do not fear retribution from the revenue service. they were interrupted on it so under the stress distressed communities. in some of the most conservative countries. having grown up in one of those i understand that. they've a way of excavating the human potential. i think it's incredibly important. w one final question.

yields a tremendous amount of power. far more than the founders intended. one example is found in civil asset forfeiture. to confiscate that upon the mere suspicion of wrongdoing. the oversight subcommittee. they have seized civil assets from small business owners. that is why i introduced the respect act which would require the irs to show probable -- probable cause. it would clear them of wrongdoing. when you commit to working with me to protect taxpayers and small businesses. this is an issue of liberty

and there is a bipartisan consensus that the asset forfeiture thank you for your indulgence. you have the rest of my time.at when we confirm that. there is a georgia taxpayer i think is the base of that movement around the country.he to end the abuse of the civil assets. thank you for bringing that up. you're recognized for the remainder of your statement. i'm sure it's hard for folks to assess where we are. if any other members come in. we will look forward to getting those written responses. we have all agreed that we

will vote on the nominations that are w before us when we have a vote. there are several nominees. obviously those positions deal with fairness for taxpayers. we've been talking about this today. in the confirm he would play a key role in another area bipartisan concern. tougher enforcement of trade laws. they were nominated to serve. there are several specific issues with that nomination. i will just touch on itev briefly. they have passed a number of

landmarks. it is our job to perform vigorous oversight. into do that it needs access to the information that shows how child welfare programs around the countryho actually work on the front lines. unfortunately last year the trump administration announced a plan to make t it significantly harder to get the information this committee needs to conduct oversight of these programs. with that particular nominee. johnson. it certainly was a mistake by the trump administration. the mistake in the wrong direction for kids in foster care. we've been talking about this for several months.

i still don't think there has been enough actual progress on that front. this is the agencyy that has custody over the thousands of refugee children in the trump administration. where their daughters and sons had been taken. in some of the audiotape. they had been heard all about that. this is how they will be fixed. when the rim of the colorado program. they have prosecuted -- prosecutors.

when the committee met several weeks ago for hearing on a nomination that was one issue among several that the committee members had to consider. now, because of the new firestorm that the trumpet ministration has created. the issue of putting them in detention facilities is obviouslyy very much on the minds. not the opportunity to learn nearly at enough about this part of the job. and the fact is we had been in the dark. we have the secretary with respect to the children under his custody. not able to give us straight answers even with respect to how many of the parents had done this.

it will have a key role with protecting in these kids. making sure that these children are there. that they really are considerable risk. a big job ahead of her. we will have the vote of the floor of the senate and certainly a number of my colleagues on both sides of the aisle. thank you. it looks to me that we are almost done. and we commend you on the work in the past. we appreciate that very much.

we appreciate all the good questions that were comprised today.ha please know that should you serve the agency and the american people while you will have no greater friend than this committee however we also hold responsibility to the american people that they will continue to be the place where your actions will be overseen and reviewed. we will be the greatest watch dog watchdog you and the agencyat head. any member who wishes to do this. please submit any questions. thank you very much for your attendance. [inaudible conversations]

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tv is in prime time. at first senator bernie sanders discussing his forthcoming book where we go from here. and then the syndicated column us. and the stanford meet the guard. on the book political risk. all this week on prime time. american history tv is in prime time this week starting tonight at eight eastern. historians discuss philadelphia in 1968.

a symposium on world war i and future u.s. leaders. including a talk on the white eisenhower. how it has been interpreted and applied in u.s. history. in on friday programs on the life and legacy of robert f kennedy. what american history tv in prime time on c-span three. as part of our 50 c-uppercase-letter to her. the c-span bus visited alaska. the final stop on the tour.

it also provides that a window into washington dc. we really believe that it was important. we believe in the network's mission to be an unfiltered, and trusted media source. we probably supports -- to support their efforts. be sure to join us on july 21. watch alaska weekend on c-span or listen on the c-span radio app. examining at the rush of military strategy.