>> to see proud of the fact he was born and raised here and to keep his story alive. >> we have a lot of different types of equipment. the things that they carried radios, the helmets or what would protect them from shrapnel

testifying before the senate finance committee mr. charles reddig talked about his strategy to restore trust in the irs to implement the new tax law. some democratic members challenged him on his disclosure property tied to president trump's businesses and comments made by vice president penn on the possibility of ending a prohibition by churches and charities. political activity. [inaudible conversations]

[inaudible conversations]

>> the meeting will come to order. we are just guessing depending on the nation on mr. charles reddig irs commissioner very important position for this country we are at a critical juncture the american people are already seeing a myriad of benefits to tax reform as

wages will rise and as irs is implement to put these two scrutiny so that they can be more realized that the irs has started to turn the corner with a large governmental organization there is always room for improvement. take for example the problems of aging technology services. and then dates back to the kennedy administration to inhibit the irs ability with 21t century technology that empowers the country an rest t of the world and then to work

with congress to modernize the irs infrastructure and a technology to bring that into the 21st century and another major issue is the irs has the aging workforce right now the majority is over the age of 50 and to retire at or around the same time faced a shortage of knowledge and experience and if confirmed i hope that mr. charles reddig will work with congress immediately as the irs continues to implement tax reform and then to ensure that taxpayers have certainty and predictability and also work with congress and then administered as congress as

intended the challenges i have been are greater than anyone commissioner to fairly implement to enforce the tax laws and then a great part with voluntary compliance and it works best with taxpayers trust agency and can contact the irs to receive timely and complete answers to their questions. in short, if confirmed, mr. charles reddig is the work cut out for him and i am optimistic he is up to the job and if confirmed will be -- lead the agency integrity i feelen confident about that should they slip up or failed to the high standards this committee will hold the irs

accountable as it always has. but at the same time when the irs asked properly and responds properly and works with us they will find no better friend than this fcommittee regardless democrats or republicans we recognize how important it is taxes are collected fairly efficiently and in compliance with what congress intended when we wrote our tax laws. thank you to mr. reddig to be here in his willingness to serve with his decades of experience representing taxpayers before the irs knows the agency inside and out with his years with the advisory councils and stakeholder groups and brings the necessary passion and dedication to this role will definitely require confident if confirmed he will be trustworthy in an earnest partner with congress and this

committee as we pursue our shared mission to improve the agency i do want to thank our acting commissioner who has done a tremendous job at the irs. even though that is not what we confirmed him to do now that more than ever needs me back to his full-time job at the treasury department. i b want to clear something up there has been inaccurate press reports leaked to many documents that the nominee did notha disclose property owned and this is absurd. it is false. and we should put this matter to rest right now. first he disclose these properties purchased in 2006 on the committee questionnaire that is a fact. honest and forthright with this committee at every stage of the vetting process the

failurepr is the additional details noted on the side of the building with any suggestion that there was a conflict of interest or conspiracy theories if something was to argue he purchase these properties in 2006 during season five of the apprentice on the off chance that mr. trump would become president and nominate him as he irs commissioner i see you feel the same way i do. that is silly and i hope we can put that matter to rest and move on to the substance of the confirmation hearing. finally we do have an executive business meeting at this time as well so if at any point a suitable quorum is present i will move immediately to vote on the nomination ms. johnson

ms. copeland and then to resume the hearing. and then to senator wyden. >> the next irs commissioner to be in charge of administering a tax system that is broken. there is one set of rules in america for the cop on the beat strict rules no poles taxes coming straight out of your paycheck or no loopholes but then another set of rules for the high flyers and under that system with the right advice you can effectively pay what you want when you want to. mr. reddig nominated by the president seems to have made a career on giving advice to a

lot ofgi those high flyers and the biggest policy challenge he will walk into if confirmed as commissioner with this extremely complicated tax law that does a whole lot more for those high flyers and the well-connected than it does for everybody else. givenwe that fact my view i hope that mr. reddig can work on behalf of alled americans particularly hard-working middle-class families the owners of the garages in restaurants and corner stores from our community the guy on the street as mr. reddig talked about in our meetings earlier this week. on another matter, if you have daddy that nixon presidency you know there is a dark history of the white house abusing the irs for political

purposes. it will be particularly important for mr. reddig to demonstrate his independence given that he did not fully disclose to the finance committee staff those condos he owns and rentsth out are in the trunk branded and managed property. and to the matter of my chairman friend talks about the leaks of this type of discussion i would only say that last night there was a memo to all finance committee members coming from the chairman and myself making it clear we wanted all members to understand what was at issue with the condos to be rented out inse the trunk branded and managed properties.

having said that to disclose that information may not have been required by law. but my view is it would have been a smart exercise of judgment. certainly if you want to eliminate any question about appearances you can sell the properties off and then to commit to independence is critically important to this administration making tax decisions for political reasons other than policy reasons is a recipe for the swampy corruption that makes people lose faith in institutions like the irs for example it appears the policy regarding those opportunities owns was changed at the behest of a well-connected republican donor so the administration put itself of picking economic

favorites as a result of the tax file this was a donor who wanted accommodation and a got it when the state of vermont brought up a similar change there are reports the trumpet administration introduced a new untested tax form to make the experience of filing returns even more of a headache for even more americans especially senior citizens where the tax law passed most americans would not be able to file in the postcard contrary to what republican sponsors promised in the administration decided to go ahead and cram the same amount onto a smaller form anyway so that means the taxpayers will have to rifle through complicated new sets of instructions to catch multiple changes and in my view certainly it is likely to generate more errors and thehe new forms could be set up for failure in one last point me the vice president said the johnson amendment which bars

5o1c3 tax organizations, and i'm quoting the vice president of the united states will know along or be enforced under this administration. now i recognize it is a priority of the far right that people don't understand it is a recipe for even more dark many and i feel very strongly that the next irs commissioner has got to be in charge of enforcing the laws of the books despite the vice presidents pledge that in effect that will not be the case. running the irs is a difficult job and mr. reddig has decades of experience but he doesn't have extensive management experience. i appreciate his willingness

to serve thank you for joining the committee mr. chairman i was look forward to working with you. >> thank you mr. senator i appreciate working with you i would like to extend a warm welcome to mr. reddig and thank him for joining us this morning. we will hear from him who is currently working at the firm where he is representing clients for government service the tax division of the department of justice and numerous state and federal taxing authorities. mr. reddig serving on the advisory board of the california franchise tax board and advisory council and the california state and the irs advisory council. mr. reddig is currently the vice chair for the administration of the american

bar association andca previously served as the chair for section of taxation of the californiath bar and throughout his career mr. reddig has specialized in federal andta criminal tax and tax litigation including tax related investigations forlu individuals business enterprises and limited liability companies and corporations. receiving his bachelors degree and jd from pepperdine and thenn earned his degree in taxation from new york university so we look forward to hearing from mr. reddig and how he can integrate his past experience with his new role at the agency if confirmed. without further a do please speak to your opening remarks

to. >> chairman hatch and ranking member it is an honor to appear before the senate finance committeean as aor president so me to serve as the next commissioner of the irs i would like to recognize my family who are with me today my wife, my sister-in-law, whether sister-in-law with her husband and my stepson and my daughter and my son and i cannot explain the degree and extent of their love and support today and throughout my professional and personal career mean to me. personally i would not be here in my mind without the ongoing support of my family. i need to also recognize three of my law partners here are today to flew out and arrived this morning and headed back this afternoon steve and dennis and ed are here and my

mentor in the practice of law a very family friend. it is the support of my friendships that allow us to be here today to do the things i have accomplished in my life. my sonbee to charlie sitting bed me currently serves as a captain in the united states army and returned monday evening from a 12 month deployment overseas. when i was nominated he probably pointed out dad i'm so proud the following me into government service. [laughter] nothing would make me more proud than to follow my son into government service and i previously do not have that opportunity and i look forward to that opportunity going forward i also learned something from my son. this tax season i was pressing him while serving overseas to get the information to the accountant to prepare his

returns and the response was that igo have 180 days from when i return from the combat zone it's nice to get tax advice from your army captain. also having a one truck air-conditioning business teaching my brother and i the value of hard work to get up early and work late and not complaining. i was the first in my family to finish w college and through undergraduate school and law school and graduate school my family joked i would never stop and they were right. for more than 35 years i have work at all levels of the irs to achieve resolutions on behalf of taxpayers to bring them back into compliance with our system of voluntary self-assessment i served as chair of the irs advisory council and in a similar role

in my own state of california and currently by shared ministration for the 12000 v v number of the american bar association help to serve as president of the american college of tax preparers. working across the table i have seen those difficulties of all kinds to small businesses and low income taxpayers who need help whenn the irs started to problem solve to allow taxpayers to come in without an appointment i organize dozens of professionals in los angeles too assist the taxpayers who appeared seeking a resolution of a tax issue i also devoted a significant amount of time assisting taxpayers who can't affordio professional help on a pro bono basis. throughout my career i've been privileged to work with many professional and hard-working irs employees if confirmed m honored would be honored to

work beside them during their respect despite the challenges it faces the irs is fortunate to have an experiencee workforce committed to itss mission. i have seen the impact ofn those challenges firsthand long waits on the telephone inadequate it it system or significant misuse of administration for the irs workforce and taxpayers. . . . . who at age 101 remains

legend in our field. it is the duty of the service to carry out that policy by correctly applying laws enacted by congress to determine the reasonable meaning of various code provisions in light of congressional purpose in enacting them and to perform this work in a fair and impartial manner with neither a government nor a taxpayer point of view. i'm grateful for the opportunity to testify and look forward to your questions. >> thank you very much. we're grateful that you're willing to take on this assignment. it is not an easy one, and it's one that has plenty of controversy. i do have some obligatory questions i'm going to have to ask. first, is there anything that you are aware of in your background that might present a conflict of interest with the duties of the office to which you have been nominated? >> no.

>> do you know of any reason personal or otherwise that would in any way prevent you from fully and honorably discharging the responsibilities of the office to which you have been nominated? >> no. >> do you agree without reservation to respond to any reasonable summons to appear and testify before any duly constituted committee of the congress if you are confirmed? >> yes. >> finally, do you commit to provide a proper response in writing to any questions addressed to you by any senator of this committee? >> yes. >> that's great. the irs stands at a cross roads, both in terms of challenges and responsibilities. in terms of challenges, if confirmed, you will run an agency that has enormous responsibility. it touches every single american and every business.

nearly every function of the government depends on the revenue of the irs collects. and at the same time, it has an aging information technology infrastructure and an aging workforce. real and serious changes are needed, and this committee is working to help with that. the irs has a lead role implementing and a primary role in administering the aging workforce, and i have to say real and serious challenges or changes are needed and this committee is working to help with that. the irs has a lead role implementing and a primary role in administering the largest tax overhaul in a generation, which delivers tax relief and simplification for taxpayers

across the country. now mr. rettig this is a challenge not a lot of people would willingly accept. so why are you dumb enough to accept it? [laughter] >> why do you want this role? and are you up to this particular challenge? and i know you are not dumb. so please forgive me for my out of control sense of humor. >> chairman, i have a deep respect for the internal revenue service, for this country, for this flag, for the people who work for the internal revenue service and respect the fact that the internal revenue service is a critical component of the success of this country. and i'm committed to giving my best efforts to make the internal revenue service the best agency that it can be. >> i think that's why you've been nominated, and from what i see, you're very capable f doing that. -- capable of doing that. under president obama this committee led congress's main

bipartisan investigation into the question of political bias, the irs and issued the only bipartisan report on to matter. congress has long been concerned with questions of political bias at the irs, which has been a serious issue across the agency's history. most notably in the kennedy, nixon and obama administrations. if confirmed, do you pledge to lead the irs without regard to partisan political bias or inappropriate influence? >> absolutely. >> the internal revenue service has never been a particularly popular agency, as you know. and its reputation has certainly been challenged in recent years. how do you intend to restore america's faith and trust in the irs, and do you consider it important to build a better relationship between the irs and the taxpayers? >> i think that the relationship and the viewpoint of the american taxpayers as to the internal revenue service is critical to the success, not

only of the internal revenue service, but also of this country. i think a large portion of the reason that i'm significantly interested in becoming commissioner is to rebuild the trust in that agency to confirm to the american taxpayers that the internal revenue service is impartial, non-biassed and color blind for all purposes. >> right. >> the issue of the irs of ancient computer equipment is something we commonly noted. despite everyone being aware of the success of updating the equipment of the irs substantial progress here remains illusive. what are you plans to update the technology needs of the irs, how are you going to accomplish that? >> the modernization of the irs it system and bringing it into the 21st century is one of my top goals. i think it serves two purposes, it serves not only the

protection of taxpayer data which i believe universally we all agree is a principal concern, but also modernizing the it system serves to enhance the services to the taxpayers in this country that they deserve. >> how will you use your long time experience as a tax attorney, especially one that's been on the other side of the courtroom from the irs to help better perform your duties at the irs? >> i've been -- >> irs commissioner really? >> i've been a consumer -- on the consumer side of the irs and a stake holder at working with the irs at virtually every level from field level agents revenue officers up through the corner offices of the irs. i think i have a pretty good understanding of the operations of the irs and the various roles that different levels of the irs play in trying to efficiently move tax administration in this country with an eye toward the benefits of taxpayers. >> okay. i think my time is basically up.

we will turn to the ranking member. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. mr. rettig, let me start with this comment of the vice president. vice president pence said in may that the johnson amendment, which prohibits the 501-c-3 tax-exempt organizations like churches from campaigning for or against political candidates will and i quote here no longer be enforced under this administration. i would like to give you the opportunity as we begin this hearing to respond to the vice president of the united states. who is going to be in charge if you're confirmed as commissioner, who is going to be in charge of the irs? will it be the vice president of the united states, or will it be

you? >> if i am confirmed, i will be in charge of the internal revenue service and will make sure that the internal revenue service move forward, follow the law, in an impartial, non-biassed manner. >> do you find the vice president's statement troubling? isn't that sending a message, inherently political message when what we want, whether it's democrats or republicans, whether we want the law enforced? isn't that a troubling message? >> as a nominee i can only speak to my viewpoint of what would happen if i was to operate the internal revenue service as commissioner if confirmed. i confirm to you and i pledge to this committee impartial, nonbiassed operation from the internal revenue service from top to bottom. >> i understood your answer. but i think every american, democrat, republican, whatever your political philosophy, ought to be very troubled that the vice president thinks he can make a statement like that, that

this administration is in effect above the law, that the law is not what matters. what matters is political muscle. let me move on to the question of the president's tax returns, and particularly this matter of being under audit. the president stated for over ten years now that he can't release his individual tax returns because he's been under these continuous audits. in your 35 years of representing certainly many high income taxpayers, complicated business arrangements, have you ever represented anybody who was under continuous audit for ten years or more? >> we have had taxpayers both individuals and entities that have had multiple year audits. >> the question is ten years. >> that's where i was going, senator. i personally cannot recall a ten-year examination, but i'm not particularly -- i have no

information about the audit with respect to the president. >> so how would one even get in a place of having ten years worth of audits? i mean, i find it incredulous that somebody could be under a continuous audit unless they have made enormous mistakes on their tax returns over an over again, and my assumption is professionals in the field, like yourself, would never let that happen. so i find it very hard to buy the president's excuse that he has been making all these months for not releasing his returns, but how would one even get in a position like this? >> from my experience, i would say that the more complex the return, the longer it takes to

get an examination completed, but again, i have no familiarity with the president's returns themselves. >> i'm going to leave the record open on that point. i would like to have you amplify on that because i just find this an incredulous excuse, and you have told me essentially that doesn't happen very often. it happens sometimes. >> in my practice. >> yeah, right. it happens sometimes, and my view is you only get there by making enormous mistakes, and professionals wouldn't make that possible. now, i'm going to read you something that goes to this question of fairness for working class people. tell me if it sounds familiar. wealthy taxpayers often engage teams of sophisticated tax business and estate planning lawyers accountants and other professionals to oversee their business activities and to legitimately minimize their potential tax liability.

does that sound familiar? >> it does. >> okay. now, you identified earlier this week the pass through deduction as one area where guidance is badly needed from the irs, and that's a provision that is so confusing that tax consultants are already feasting on planning opportunities for their wealthiest clients. given the ripe opportunities for tax planning and tax evasion, frankly, created under the new republican tax law, how are you going to combat the kind of aggressive tax planners you are trying to describe your feelings about in that quote i gave you? >> that quote relates to the fact that, you know, taxpayers have teams -- wealthy taxpayers have teams of representatives handling their returns. typically a taxpayer who desires to cheat is not going to go to a

group of tax professionals to put some structure together to do something. that's not universal, but that's typical. >>i'm over my time. i just need you to tell me briefly how you would combat those who are trying to get every possible advantage out of this in effect to find holes in the law >> for me it would be critical for the irs to provide clear, timely succinct guidance as to what the positions are and what the intent of congress was with respect to each of the provisions in the tax -- >> in the next round we will talk about what that clear guidance ought to be. thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you, mr. chairman, i appreciate you having the hearing today. mr. rettig, you and i have had a chance to visit on a number of issues including our appreciation you're willing to step up and serve. i want to mention army captain charlie rettig who came back

from deployment in a combat zone. i would like him to stand up for a second and give him a round of applause. [applause] >> you're following him in service although it is not combat, it is going to be a tough job. >> i think it is combat. >> yeah. >> you and i talked a lot about irs reform and one reason i'm excited about having a commissioner in place, i think it is an opportunity for this committee working with you and the ways and means committee to make some changes at the irs again. we did this 20 years ago with a big restructuring and reform act, it came after a commission was formed -- actually by this body, i cochaired that with senator bob kerry as you know, and then along with senator ben cardin who is coming in a moment, will be here. we introduced legislation that senator hatch took a leadership role on as did senator wyden in

his role then on the committee. what we did was say the irs is not working, not functioning to help taxpayers. at that time only half of the calls were being answered when a taxpayer would call the irs. and they'd spend about 3 billion dollars on an it system that wasn't working, wasn't talking to each other. it was a big waste. so we undertook a series of reforms, 52 different new taxpayer rights were added and so on. irs oversight board. so half the calls were being returned back in that period. we passed the legislation within ten years instead of half the calls being returned 83% of the calls were being answered. that was a big improvement. all the ratings you looked at which agency or department do you feel has done a good job for the taxpayer? the irs was at the bottom when we started the reforms. by the time the ten years were up and the reforms were getting in place, it was object halfway

up the ladder -- it was about halfway up the ladder which isn't bad for a tax agency. unfortunately, we're back to a situation where taxpayers are being served. only 37% of calls were being answered in 2015. today i understand it is closer to 50%, but way unacceptable. first of all, do you agree with me on that? >> i agree that america's t taxpayers should have their telephone calls answered, i think it is critical to earn the respect with the agency they are interacting, efficient and timely responses. >> the only measure would be how many taxpayers can come in and get an answer from a person that's also declined. another issue i know that senator cardin and i are looking at is the appeals process. we believe it's been more truncated since 20 years ago with the reforms in place. we need to get back to a system where people feel like they have an absolute right to appeal. there's other issues as well.

one you and i talked a lot about in our meeting was the irs oversight board. this is something that senator kerry felt strongly about as did i and others we put in place this oversight board that would bring in service sector expertise, management expertise, and frankly i think it started off pretty well, and then because of lack of support by every administration, frankly along the way, it kind of fell to the wayside. and the idea was not to have to have a commission every 20 years. not to have a process i think we need to undergo again this next couple of years, hopefully with a new commissioner in place, hopefully with you. but to have this commission perform that role of oversight and ensuring that we stayed on track, there are literally no members of the commission right now, not a single member has been appointed. and again, this goes back to the administrations, the obama administration was no more supportive really than the clinton administration was, than the bush administration, than

the current administration, so what do you think about the irs oversight board? good idea, bad idea? do you think it should be resurrected, and do you think it has a role to play? >>i'm in favor of oversight, oversight board, by this committee, by others, i think it assists in the transparency of the operations of the internal revenue service, as well as providing assistance. as commissioner i would look forward to getting ideas from everybody and more ideas the better, and then we would work on the ideas collectively. >> well, i appreciate that answer. and i do think that if you're confirmed, that this committee is going to be very interested in working with you on irs reform, and i hope that will be part of the discussion. just last question, just briefly, on the idea of having an independent appeals process, do you support taxpayers having access to an independent appeals process? >> absolutely. >> thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you, mr. chairman.

congratulations, mr. rettig in your nomination. as you know, new jersey joined 32 other state and d.c. by recently passing a law that authorizes towns and cities to create charitable funds and provide tax credits to encourage donations. but in an advisory notice released in may, it seems to me that the irs is arbitrarily singled out new programs like new jersey and warned that taxpayers would face penalties if they write off deductions, write off their donations, i should say. this fundamentally flawed advisory contradicts decades of precedent and case law, all the way up to the supreme court and discriminates against states apparently based on political affiliation. so my question to you, if you're confirmed as the commissioner, would you adhere to the principles of federalism and states rights and respect the authority of states to set their own tax policy? >> if i'm confirmed as commissioner of the internal

revenue service, we will follow the law, impartially, in a non-biassed manner and as i have indicated previously, nobody should presuppose my position on any particular issue across the board. that the internal revenue service will appropriately look into the facts, look at the relevant policies, procedures, prior guidance that has been issued and i believe come to the accurate conclusion in issuing whatever guidance the internal revenue service is to issue. >> i appreciate that. if 32 other states and the district of columbia already have the same exact principle, and it is in effect, and it has been upheld by the irs, would you see any reason to discriminate against another state if in fact they are doing the very same essence of what those 32 other states are doing? >> it is not an issue that in my practice i have dealt with. but in the press that i have read, with respect to the issue, it is my understanding that there's a possibility that the

post-tax act situation could be not on all fours with the earlier position taken by the internal revenue service in the 2010 chief counsel notice. that will be explored. >> as you know, i raised this with you when you came to visit me. i do appreciate you visited me. you told me you don't know much then. i gave you a very early warning that i'd be asking you these questions at this hearing. so this is a serious issue that can raise property tax burdens and sow confusion for hundreds of thousands of new jersey people. then they will deserve a clear answer. so again, would you undermine new jersey's law and deny people deductions for these charitable contributions, if they are in line with 32 other states and the district of columbia that are doing this right now, and that the irs has upheld? >> senator, i think as we both know, the irs and treasury are both working on guidance, my incentive with respect to the guidance would be that it be accurate, impartial, non-biassed and clear and issued timely, and

it should not be lost on the committee that although your comments relate to new jersey, i happen to be from the state of california which is working on a similar situation, and i would still look at it in a non-biassed impartial manner. >> let me give you some background, in 2011, the irs chief counsel released an advisory memo clarifying that state credits do not, i repeat do not, prohibit taxpayers from writing off the full value of their charitable donations. in other words, getting a tax break doesn't mean you earn more money and thus you shouldn't be x thatted for -- you shouldn't be taxed more as a result. the supreme court confirmed this ruling that stated tax credits given for charitable donations are not considered a thing of value and rather i quote the government declining to impose a tax. i think we can all agree it is illogical, impractical and fundamentally back wards to tax people on the value of a tax break they receive. in some states, tax lawyers and accountants have bragged about how they are using their program

to circumvent the property tax cap. for example in alabama financial advisors explained that so called the nations are as i quote treated as if you paid alabama taxes for federal purposes your donation will be reported as a charitable contribution. otherwise the state tax payment would be reported as a deduction subject to the $10,000 cap and provide no tax benefit to you. these efforts to maximize deductions were common even before the trump tax bill gutted the property tax deduction. indeed, high-priced tax lawyers and accountants in georgia have been for years urging their clients to shift their itemized deductions from state taxes to charitable donations in order to avoid the alternative minimum tax. so are alabama and georgia's programs in compliance with the law and irs rules? >> i think you're aware i'm not specifically aware of the alabama and georgia programs themselves, and i think that when we met, you raised an issue

that perhaps the current situation, the difference between credits and deductions, i'm not sure that that's a difference that -- >> chairman, you're tapping before my time even is up. >> your time is up. >> it is up now, but not when you were tapping. >> can i hear the balance of the answer? >> i think both of us went about a minute or so over. could senator menendez have that too? >> sure, i'm not going to stop -- >> i appreciate the chairman's -- >> but don't accuse me of interfering with your -- i tapped to let you know you're near the end so that we don't have the carry over and prolong this committee unnecessarily. go ahead. >> senator, i'm aware of your concern with respect to this issue, and the concern of others with respect to this issue and the concern of taxpayers across the country with respect to this issue, and i would look forward to a resolution that universally people could say is the right resolution. >> well, i will close on this, the one thing i don't want to see is the irs weaponized

against states like mine. it is either good for everybody, the 32 states that have been doing it and the district of columbia, or it's good for nobody. and so i hope that you will seriously look at this in that manner because otherwise we will feel that we are being treated unjustly, simply because we are the state that we are. thank you, mr. chairman. >> senator? >> i think senator cardin was here before me. go ahead. all right, all right. >> you're so courteous. thank you. >> i will never make this mistake again. i'm a vietnam veteran and a special pleasure to have you here and we welcome you to our country and i hope we will welcome more often others from other countries to our country. that's a spirit we could use around here these days. we talked -- thanks for coming by yesterday. we talked a good bit about adequate funding for the irs, we just passed a tax bill last year

that's going to increase the budget deficit by a couple trillion dollars over the next ten years. deficit already at enormous levels and it is going to climb higher. it is a matter of great concern to me and i know it is to you and my colleagues. one way we could reduce the deficit and increase revenues without raising any rates art all would be to fund the -- rates at all would be to fund the irs. reductions in funding over the last several years by about almost 20%, a number of employees down by double digits. your thoughts about this, please, and what would you do to try to turn that around? >> i believe it is the responsibility of irs to expend any funds it receives in a very responsible forthright efficient manner. i think that's critical to obtaining the trust of the american people. if confirmed, and if i'm in the position as commissioner, one of my top priorities would be to analyze the budget of the internal revenue service, workforce related issues, training related issues, all of

which encompass on the outside all of which encompass the probability of a need for additional resources, funding resources, possibility of additional workforce. i'm a huge believer in training the workforce there so that they are the best on the planet. i think that we need to universally get on board with the training of the internal revenue service so they can provide top quality service to america's taxpayers. that's where i'm coming from. >> good, thank you. former commissioner with who i thought was a hero, he's greatly criticized especially by folks on the other body, but i thought for somebody like him to come out of the retirement at the age of almost 70 to take on a thankless tough job like this that he deserves our kudos. he repeatedly called on congress to reauthorize the streamline critical pay program, but to no avail. we talked about this yesterday. can you inform the committee of your views on streamline critical pay authority, please? in addition, could you tell us in the absence of this authority, what your plans are for ensuring that irs is able to

track top flight tech talent especially given the ongoing cybersecurity and theft threats are growing ever more prevalent, please. >> i'm a proponent of critical pay authority for the internal revenue service, particularly with respect to the it side of the operation. i think it's publicly known that the internal revenue service -- the system gets attacked between 2 and 3 million times a day, and i think it is critical to the success of this country and to the appearance and trust that the american taxpayers have in the irs that we have a system that defends taxpayer data better than any other system on the planet. and if in the absence of critical care pay scales i think that it's a significant effort on my part and on the part of other senior leadership members of the internal revenue service to encourage not only the workforce that's there to remain and want to remain there and be proud of remaining there, but to encourage people on the outside, recruit from the outside, the

benefits of government service which is actually what i'm doing today. be proud to be serving. >> thank you. one of the things we talked about yesterday was minimum standards for paid preparers. controller general for the gao said we have a huge problem here. senator wyden has introduced legislation with my support and others on the committee to better ensure that folks that are preparing tax returns know what they are doing and can reduce the number of errors that flow from that. i'd like to ask if i could that your views on this, please. >> i believe that people prepare tax returns on behalf of others should be capable, competent, and understand the tax laws for the returns they are preparing. i think that the training that accompanies a typical regulation or involvement, licensing or whatnot of most preparers is critical. >> good. earlier one of the things we

talked about yesterday was the it programs for the irs which as we've heard earlier here just old, tired. and i heard as much as 400 million dollars upgrade. is that something you would be inclined to support? >> i'm not on the inside so i don't know the particulars of it, but from the press on the outside and from what we see on the outside, i think that the american taxpayers deserve the most up to date i.t. system on the planet >> thank you. lastly, the question on new management experience, some people are going to say it looks pretty good on paper. maybe he's a decent guy, wonderful family, salute your son, is your son a marine? >> army. >> army. quick word on your management experience, speak to the question of your management experience. it is a big job, a lot of people to manage. >> yeah, management experience to me is based on leadership and the skills of leadership and cee

-- and creating teams and the leader facilitates the ability of the teams to perform to their top capabilities and open communication from top to bottom. i perceive myself as a pretty good people person, interaction with others, i'm open to criticism and i'm open to providing criticism as well. >> thank you very much. >> senator cardin? >> mr. rettig, first of all, thank you very much for your willingness to serve. you have a very distinguished career in understanding the tax laws and advocating on behalf of others. so i thank you for your willingness to get involved in this area which is not without controversy. i thank your family. i want to follow up on some of the comments that were made by senator portman and senator carper on tax administration. but i want to start with the budget that senator carper asked you about. we've gone through a series of budget years where the irs has really taken a hit, on its budget.

the only reason there was an increase in this year's budget was to implement a new tax law. it didn't deal with the underlining capacity within the irs itself. and i appreciate the fact that you want to -- that you recognize that you have to live within the funds that are appropriated and you want to make sure that every dollar is properly expended, and i want you to do that. but also want to know whether you will be an advocate on behalf of the men and women, the professional people that are there serving their country and trying to make sure our tax laws are administered fairly, that they would have the resources they need and the support they need in order to be able to carry out their mission. are you going to be that type of an advocate within the trump administration to make sure that you have adequate resources to carry out this mission? >> senator, people who have known me for the past 50 years, the last word they would characterize me as is shy. the committee, the american taxpayers should anticipate that i will be knocking on every door possible if i make the

determination that i think we need something to accomplish the goals that we have set out. >> and you'll be prepared to tell us directly those needs so that we as an independent branch of government can get that information? >> yes, this committee will hear from me directly. >> i want to underscore some of the points on legislation that's moving through here. you mentioned several times that you want to make sure that the personnel are adequately trained to deal with the complexities of our tax code and the needs of the taxpayer. there's legislation that would establish a division for training within the irs to protect those funds because as you probably are aware, when there's tight budgets, those funds are verse to be cut. will you work with us so we can protect the resources to go into training to make sure your people are adequately trained? >> absolutely. >> thank you. there's also a program as you

know to deal with low income taxpayers, for assistance in the irs, are you prepared to work with us in order to strengthen that program? >> absolutely. >> thank you. you already answered the questions on tax prepare rs. i think we need to make sure that consumers are protected when it comes to those that are out there making -- using consumers as a part of business. i appreciate that answer. on private debt collection, we've been debating that for a long time. every study has shown the private debt collection usually ends up costing us more money than we raised. i think the house has come up with an effort to try to deal with the size of the taxpayer as one of the methods. will you work with us so we can try to resolve this issue as to private debt collection? >> i will. >> thank you. the last issue i want to talk about is the -- i'm the ranking democrat on the small business

and entrepreneurship committee. we have a senator as the chairman of that committee. we have received a great deal of interest from the small business community as to the administration of the tax laws before the change in the tax code and now since the change, we have heard a lot more as to how small businesses will be able to deal with the changes that have been made. we have had a lot of concern about the tax preference of business income, for small businesses. would you be prepared to come before -- if confirmed, come before the small business committee at the senator's and my request in order to work on ways we can help small businesses deal with the complexities of our tax code that was there before the tax reform and now made more complicated by the passage of this law? >> absolutely. i grew up in a small business. i believe small businesses are the backbone of this country. >> thank you. mr. chairman, i will yield back the balance of my time.

>> thank you, senator cardin. for the benefit of senators, i will call on you, and then i will end this first round. for those listening in who may be coming, we will have a second round after i have asked my questions. senator? >> thanks for coming in. i enjoyed our meeting in my office. in february i had an exchange with the acting commissioner on identity theft and protection of taxpayer data. my identity was stole once. and it still has implications in terms of how we file and when we receive our dollars back. so significant reductions in id theft since 2015, there were 1.4 million fraudulent returns in 2015. about 600,000 this year. but what thoughts do you have as to how we can move that 600,000, which costs us billions of dollars, in fraudulent returns, down towards zero? >> i'm proud of the fact that the internal revenue service has made a dent in the identity

theft and i share your concern that 600,000 would still be too much, that any identify theft is still too much. there are issues with respect to the timing of certain functions in the internal revenue service that if the irs was allowed more time, they could prevent more id theft in situations like that. if confirmed, i would look forward to working with you in that regard. >> i will point out that i'm told that my stolen return did not note that i had three children, which formally i had had three, and so you could have checked to see if something had happened, it does seem if integration, a social security fund could have revealed that simple thing. >> there is tremendous pressure on the irs to issue refunds. i think that's part of the issue to be dealt with. i share the concern that any identity theft related to the internal revenue service is -- >> the congress is considering some irs administrative reforms that would improve this.

let me give you some ideas, see what you think of it. designating a single point of contact at the irs where an id theft victim could call, notifying taxpayers when id theft is suspected, and updating on criminal prosecution, i would like to know this just isn't oh my gosh it is just happening and we don't care and then expansion of the id protection pin program, any thoughts on those? >> the single point of contact i think is critical because it is confusing for people who have suffered id theft. there's multiple gates, multiple doors to get into. so i think a single point of contact would be significant. the criminal investigation issues i think that's a significant part of criminal investigations function within the internal revenue service is deterrence, so making people who might consider going down that road in terms of id theft, make them aware of the fact that they could be looking at a significant prison sentence i think is critical. >> if somebody i know stole my

id then frankly that's going to get out in my community. >> correct. >> presumably somebody i know stole my id, it could have been somebody that logged on and got my info. but anyway to reverberate. the id protection pin program? >> the pin program i think is critical, and i understand that there's even contemplation of maybe, you know, an issuance of different social security numbers and other things associated with that would be on the pin. most of us don't want -- we can remember our social security number. we may not remember our pin code as we go into the future and even getting into government building, you know when you are asked for the last four of your social, sometimes most of us have to start at the beginning to get to the last four, i think the possibility of issuing new social security numbers people have incurred that may also generate some respect by the victim for the fact that the government stands with them. >> uh-huh. the treasury -- let me talk about the return review program.

again, to improve fraud detection, it's been implemented in recent years, appears to be a significant improvement over the old system, treasury ig for tax administration report from september 17 noted the irs may not meet its december 18 target for retiring the legacy syndrome -- legacy system. again, i have been -- i have had an unflagged fraudulent return. how can you prioritize full implementation of the new system? >> being on the outside, i'm not personally familiar with this system, but it would be a high priority for me if confirmed to look into it and work with you and the rest of the committee. >> okay. the irs has undertaken an information sharing pilot program to reduce fraud and id theft. i understand 24 states participated in 2017. it seems reasonable to expand that. again, your views on that? you probably are familiar with this >> i'm an advocate of information sharing with other similar state agencies. i think that's critical to

moving forward. >> lastly, i will say that i'm pleased to see the irs has improved customer service, but still i think 1 in 5 people calling never get their phone call answered, what can we do to improve that? >> i believe it's critical that for the respect of the agency and to earn the trust of the american taxpayer that when they call the irs, somebody answers the phone. >> it seems pretty basic, huh? any ideas on how to improve or more manpower, woman power? >>i'm aware of other states that have the ability to when you call in, you actually get a recording, and it says if the hold time is 17 minutes, if you would leave your number we will call you back 3 minutes as well as private industry tends to do that routinely. i think if that's possible on the scale of the irs, that type

of a system, that would be significant. i think not only in terms of getting the person off the phone so they are not on hold, but with respect for the agency, to make them the 21st century agency as though the private sector operates the same. that's what the taxpayers are used to. >> uh-huh. >> they are used to calling a private sector entity and getting a 3 minute hold leave your number and they will call you back. i would like to see the irs get to that level working with the committee. >> that would be great. thank you very much. >> thank you, senator cassidy. senator white house? >> thank you chairman. thank you for your visit to my office. the irs has a history of by-gone days as having been used as a political weapon. we have a president who apparently is regularly demanding loyalty of folks who

are appointed. we witnessed the administration leaning on both independent regulators and on agencies of government, like doj, that are supposed to be independent, to try to impose their will. that combination of factors raises the question of how, a, have you made any loyalty pledge or been asked to make any loyalty pledge? >> no. >> no you have not? >> no on both counts. >> no on both counts? and along the spectrum of yielding to political pressure, when it's brought to bear on you, versus being staunchly independent, as commissioner, where do you expect you would fall along that spectrum? >> i would hope that the members of this committee and the american taxpayers see me as staunchly independent or more so. >> one of the problems we talked about in my office is the

problem of shell corporations. they are used for tax avoidance and evasion. they are also used for considerable degree of criminal activity. much of that is a matter of state law. but there are signals that the irs commissioner can send, by, for instance, telling investigators looking into tax fraud that when they bump up against a shell corporation, they ought to really redouble their efforts and not just walk away because we can't figure that out. and also to be a voice with respect to the shell corporation problem as congress deliberates that problem. let me know what your thoughts are on dealing with shell corporations in those two ways. >> if confirmed, i would be a vocal advocate for the strength of the enforcement mechanisms of the internal revenue, including the criminal investigation division of the internal revenue

service and my -- in my background, criminal investigation does not back down from a challenge, they appreciate the challenge, and they move forward. >> and would you be willing to make a report to us once you've been in for a while and gotten a look at this as to how bad the shell corporations problem is from your perspective in terms of law enforcement? >> absolutely. >> okay. great. thank you. there is a collections gap between what taxpayers owe and what the irs collects, estimated to be about 400 billion dollars. would it be fair for us to evaluate your tenure as irs commissioner based on what you can do to reduce that number? >> senator, what i can tell you is i'm very familiar with the tax gap. i'm familiar with the majority of the tax gap comes from the individual side, underreporting, nonfiling and underpayment. and i actually look at the tax gap as somewhat of a road map to

tax avoidance, tax evasion, in this country. it has been identified, going back to 2001 i believe was the first tax gap map was created. tax year 2001. very sensitive to that issue. and i'm sensitive to the need to reduce that issue. for a variety of reasons, including a little bit more respect. if we got one more percent of voluntary compliance, we move it from say 83 percent to 84 percent. that's another 30 billion dollars a year. and on the other side, if we lose -- if the irs loses respect of the american taxpayer, and it reduces 1%, that's a 30 billion dollars year loss. i'm extremely hopeful to put a significant dent in the tax gap. >> and my last question is that a lot of the work that the irs does is based on truthful reporting by taxpayers. if it should come to your attention that a taxpayer is claiming one thing under oath in

a filing to the irs and is claiming something that on its face appears very different to other regulators or in other reporting environments, what do you think should be done about that? is that worth at least a preliminary look to see why the taxpayer is reporting something very different to the irs than they are elsewhere? >> the commissioner is not in -- not responsible for audit selection of tax pairs or issues -- taxpayers or issues, that's really more of the workforce, but i think the irs itself has those mechanisms in place and they do read the newspapers and do pay attention to what's going on south outside of the service -- going on outside of the service. >> do you think the irs should be looked into, reporting whether the irs is truthful or not? >> in my experience, the irs has looked into that. >> should it continue to do so? >> i believe that they should.

>> okay. >> it's been my e peerngs that they do -- experience that they do. >> my time is up, thank you, mr. chairman. >> mr. rettig, would you tell me about the scholarship fund? >> i would proudly tell you about the vets -- >> we would proudly listen. >> i created the fund for the purpose of ucla, ucla extension is number two extension program in the world in terms of actual registrations. vet counts scholarship funds is intended to provide scholarships to active duty and veterans. came from the situation where you see reality tv where you see soldiers in a sandbagged installation in iraq or wherever they happen to be and maybe playing video games or whatnot and the intent of vets count to allow soldiers serving overseas

in something like a sand bunker to earn extension credits in areas of finance, accounting and such so when they leave if you have been a machine gunner on humvee for three years and have the gi bill, the ability to go to college or university in this country and sit in a geography class might be a challenge coming out of the environment that you have been in, the idea of vets count is to provide active duty soldiers and veterans with the ability to assimilate into society with some financial literacy, some accounting, and maybe in time they would go to college. but immediately to give them some respect when they come back into the job market. >> as i understand it, you are the co founder of that program, is that correct? >> i'm the founder of the program. >> the reason i bring it up is i'm the chairman of the veterans committee in the united states senate, and it is always great for me to point out a united states citizen who is lending their expertise and their career to help support in some ways veterans employment, veterans education and having co-written

the act a few years ago when senator kerry and i started distance learning in the united states military for earning college credit, i understand how valuable what you are doing there is and you are taking video games out of a soldier's hands in many cases and putting a calculus book in their hands which is great. i wanted to commend you publicly on your commitment to our military and your son behind you, he will be a good student following in your leadership, sir. >> thank you. >> second, are you familiar with free file? >>i am. >> i have in the last seven years had a free file event every april in atlanta at an underemployment and unemployment center promoting the available software that's made available by american software developers to file and pay and income taxes or get it one way or another. i have tried to pursue making that permanent. only been authorized every couple years. would you support permanency of the free file program? >> if confirmed i would look

into it in more detail. i'm a huge supporter of whatever makes it more easy for u.s. taxpayers to get into compliance. >> thank you for that answer. and lastly, for my question before i turn back to the ranking member for his second questions, my personal feeling, and this is my personally as a tax -- i've paid taxes since april 15, 1959, when i made $40 a week as a surveyor's assistant and had $8.90 withheld from my $40 weekly check which was my first experience paying taxes. some people say they became a republican then. i didn't become a republican then. i became one later. that's not relevant. what is relevant i've paid them the whole time. i have had professional help to pay them. it went beyond my ability to do it and felt like i was doing it right or accurately. but i believe the most recent tax change along with some that took place earlier in tax law

has actually simplified the process of filing and paying income taxes. am i wrong or right on that? >> senator, you know, i know from the outside and from the press reports that i believe, i believe we're on that course, but i believe in terms of being able to come up with a calculate as actual right or wrong -- >> i agree with that. it seems like with the enhanced deduction, itemization that takes place, some of the new laws we have done the last couple of changes it made the dream of having one page 1040 where you sign it and send it in maybe within reach of this. i hope as commissioner of irs you will work towards completing that task to moving towards simplification of the system because you just said in answering senator whitehouse question with regard to the amount of income we have lost by people not paying, filing the

most of the income we're not getting are the tax gap are people who aren't filing or aren't paying. >> correct. >> it is an act -- an overt act on their part that we're not getting the money, not a mistake. i would think simplicity would help us reduce that amount of people who are not paying and increase the amount of people who are filing. if you would help us do that i think it would help you a lot in raising that percentage of collection from 38 to 84. -- from 83 to 84. >> i agree. >> thank you. senator wyden? >> my friend senator isaacson makes the commendable point about simplicity. i hope you will take it seriously and i will just tell you, if confirmed, you have some heavy lifting to do because after all the -- about how the administration was going to get taxes on a postcard, apparently for a lot of people, you would have to complete six schedules in order to be part of such a drill. so you're going to have some heavy lifting to do.

i will just tell you point-blank i hope what you will do is focus on the small business guidance on the pass through provision which looks like it is literally from fantasy land in terms of trying to figure out what is expected of these small businesses. a lot of them told me they couldn't begin to make an estimate of their estimate. i hope you will do that first, rather than continue on other matters that might make for good publicity, but don't really deal with the guts of what our economy needs and particularly in my state and much of the country. most businesses are pass-throughs and they are literally crying out for some clarity on what's going to be done. now for my next question i would like to turn to the charity area because we have had strong bipartisan support in this committee for charity centers. we have prosecuted that case for a long time.

secretary mnuchin says the bill will encourage more charitable donation. the nonpartisan experts at the tax policy centers say in their view that the number of taxpayers claiming the charitable deduction will be cut by more than a half and over all charitable giving will decline by as much as 20 billion dollars annually. you've probably seen in the press that a lot of the charities are already speaking out publicly about their concerns and their concerns about the vagueness of the provisions, drafting errors, they don't even in many instances know how to comply with the new rules. do you have any reason to doubt the findings of these nonpartisan experts who talk about the decline of charitable giving as i have described? >> i have not reviewed those reports personally and so it would be unfair of me to comment on what they are saying, but i

believe in the concept of charitable giving and, you know -- >> okay. on the management front, what is the largest number of employees that you have managed? >> actual employees? 35. >> 35, okay. so there's 70,000 people who are going to be working at the irs, if you're confirmed, i thought your point with respect to senator carper that you have shown leadership and you have had all these kinds of boards, i would like you to furnish for the record because time is short and my colleague -- we have got some business to do, i would like to hear more specifics about what kind of management approach you would actually take because there is a big difference between managing 35 and managing 70,000, and i would just like that for the record. to have that. one last question with respect to these charitable groups and political activity, i thought your answer to my question about the vice president was a good

one because i thought that statement he made was way over the line. i mean, not even close because that's really trying to interfere with the impartial administration of tax law, but i continue to be concerned about these issues given the allegations that the trump campaign operation coordinated or even diverted how trump foundation grants were distributed to provide maximum benefit to the trump campaign. in the meeting that you and i had, you emphasized the importance of the irs using its resources to send a message to the public. you talked about some examples about it. what kind of a message would it send for the irs not to pursue evidence of the law being violated by high government official? i'm not talking to you about a specific case, but i would just like to hear your thoughts about the kind of message it would send for the irs not to pursue

evidence of a law violation by an official? >> in my experience, the irs looks into a lot of matters, develops the facts of those matters, and sometimes we hear about them publicly and sometimes we do not. so the public acknowledgment of what the irs might be doing doesn't really surface until something gets through the system. but also in my experience, the irs does read the newspapers and they do create cases out of what they read in the newspapers. >> the irs certainly will get a newspaper, but given what has happened recently, literally a month ago with the vice president of the united states basically saying that his views were more important than the johnson amendment, which prohibits politics from the pulpit, i think we ought to understand we're in a different kind of time. i look forward to continuing these discussions. i have asked for a number of matters for the record, chairman

hatch and senator isaacson have all agreed we have some more business to do after senator brown has a chance to ask his questions. i appreciate the second round, mr. chairman. >> senator brown? :: >> the taxpayer advocate had said and part one -- unfairly targeting low-income individuals that i think all of this is unacceptable if confirmed will you review to a programming review of collection efforts?

>> this responsibility is to follow the law and the issue that i think is implementation of the private debt collector law and to do that in the impartial manner. >> so that means you are suggesting to vulnerable taxpayers are not targeted? >> agreed that the irs is planning to shut down the branch in kentucky on the other side affecting hundred of my constituents would you commit to finding employment at a nearby office? >> and i believe it is fair to me not to commit to that or the reason to terminate the employees but i do share your concern with 800 individuals not being employed and i will look into that and work with your office.

>> considering the talk about the agency's need for resources which i certainly support and i hope my colleagues will it is unreasonable to eliminate these positions so i will work with you on that. i know you discussed your experience my understanding is you have done that. and for tax compliance to the earned income tax credit. and to moderate or low income workers every march or april 00 the thousand to make 20 or 30 or $40000 per year with a refundable tax credit to get a check of two or $3000 that is very significant obviously. and with a 93% accuracy rate

so describe for us and irs commissioner that practices. so tell us about your experience and reassure all of us on this committee that it has the resources to meet demand for services. >> obviously the taxpayer service side is essentially free services to the taxpayer and those tax professionals in this country to start off with the understanding what tax administration is about to prepare returns to be behalf on the context rather than taking accounting courses in the college type of environment so to begin in the program and as you have

indicated that training is significant which is critical to the success that returns are as prepared as accurately. >> i so appreciate the work you have done and your comments. there are members of this committee and politicians that love to talk in a deceitful way to play with numbers with fraud and earned income tax credit that is echoed like from the wall street journal because in just over payment underpayment the taxpayer had nothing to do with. it is underpayment not overpayment so we can count on

you with the irs commissioner and to set the record straight when those accusations come out. >> absolutely. >> thank you mr. chairman for being here and your willingness to serve i enjoyed our chat and with a couple of points that tax measure is contributing i thinking nervously to a good economic environment with encouraging data record low unemployment but there are job openings than those looking for jobs and the cbo revised growth their estimate to her they

expecting 3.3% so our goal for the lockout effect by changing to a more territorial basis from a broader coming home on a scale of hundreds of billions of dollars. this is proving to be extremely beneficial but with rules for implementation and simply ask that you would commit to working with this committee to have any of those ambiguities that you take into account those of us who wrote this legislation to get this right for constituents. >> absolutely if confirmed with the intent with what congress intended and i look forward to the opportunity

with clear concise and timely guidance and get it right the first time. >> we also spoke briefly about the foreign tax compliance act and with that current financial institutions citizens have to report our withhold 30% but the fact is and then refused to provide banking systems to american citizens abroad. this is a huge problem with a record number of americans have renounced edison ship because they cannot manage their finances and that makes it a huge competitive disadvantage for those seeking to work and a stent overseas could be a valuable experience for career.

and with those at a competitive disadvantage so can i get a commitment from you you will work with us here in congress to lessen the burden? >> if confirmed with those taxpayers going forward. >> and finally it struck me that the irs has so few appointed positions and career staff no question about that. so that chief of staff and chief of counsel with those discretionary hires but otherwise everybody is a career staff and i just wonder wouldn't it be better for the

commissioner to assemble his or her own management team to a greater extent? do you have an opinion on that? >> without leadership currently in place and with that private sector experience with that deep understanding which each of us takes with those taxpayers and actions on the committee. >> it was the nominee to have four nominees that with the quarter we have to move consideration to the floor later today. and now i recognize senator wyden. >> i agree with the decision

to move these off the floor until later. we'll move these nominations and then with taxpayers so i note that our friend senator scott has come and probably wants to ask questions of mr. reddig i will hold off making my comments about the nominees and let senator scott go. >> you are recognized. >> thank you very much. and from the state and all possessions of the united states with those opportunity zones in areas of jurisdiction

so securing this position in the tax bill was a huge legislative win for the millions of americans living and struggling in communities please think the acting commissioner and his team for their hard work to push out the guidance to select opportunity zones as will health create permanent positive changes for generations to come. but without a spit investment vehicle most likely to drive jobs and economic activity in those areas. ed will opportunity zone to achieve important public policy goals with the risk to be severely underutilized because of fear of irs retribution and if confirmed what would you do to more

closely aligned irs guidance and enforcement? >> senator if confirmed i look forward to working with you to make sure the guidance issued is clear and concise and timely and i would hope the american taxpayers do not fear retribution but respect the irs and it is clear they know the irs respect the american people. >> that is good to hear. think about the opportunities with legislation to provide private sector capital throughout this nation so the positive impact than those communities and the country and having grown up to understand and initiate and

appreciate those laws trapped and we have a way to excavating that potentia potential. >> thank you very much for that. one final question, the irs currently has a tremendous amount of power from the folks in south carolina far more than the founders intended oneness of all asset forfeiture to allow the irs to confiscate a citizens wealth on the mere suspicion of wrongdoing during the two-year investigation to discover there were civil assets from small business owners providing substantial evidence to support their claims that is why introduce the act that requires the irs to show probable cause before seizing asset that would clear them of

wrongdoing will you commit to commit taxpayers and small businesses? >> thank you very much with an issue of liberty it is an abuse that needs to be stopped thank you for your indulgence. >> and i might add but on the asset forfeiture issue to be a cosponsor of the legislation the base of that movement around the country finally bringing that up. >> you are recognized for the remainder of the statement. >> for folks to assess where they are and we look forward

to getting your written report for discussion and we will vote on the nomination before us when we have a vote. obviously those positions and then confirmed he would play a key role in another area of bipartisan concern i plan on supporting each of those three nominees for consideration serving as assistant secretary to be had of the administration for children and families there are several

specific issues with that nomination i will touch on briefly but first dealing with the child welfare system the committee has passed another home --dash landmarks and it is our job to perform vigorous oversight and then needs access to the information that shows wild child welfare programs around the country actually work on the front line. unfortunately the trust administration announced a plan to make a significant one -- make it significantly harder and what the public needs with that particular nominee but that was a mistake by the trump administration

and then in one direction for kids in foster care. working with this department over several months we have had communication but there still isn't enough actual progress on that front that brings me to the second issue if confirmed she would oversee the office of refugee resettlement this is the agency that has custody over the thousands of refugee children from mothers and fathers and where their sons have been taken and those gut wrenching audiotapes have been heard with young children crying out with fear inside and americans want answers so

when she ran the colorado child welfare program had the be placed in juvenile facilities but that was one issue among several that committee members had to consider and now because of the new firestorm of the trump administration to put children in detention facilities is obviously on the minds of american people not to have an opportunity nearly enough on this chance -- ms. johnson can handle this part of her job and in a great extent and those under his custody even

with respect to how many parents are told were their children actually are. so ms. johnson certainly if confirmed will have a key role in addressing this issue of protecting these kids to make sure that these children are safe with significant evidence that they really are considerable risk she has a big job ahead of her so certainly a number of my colleagues on both sides of the aisle will support her but with those issues i have mentioned i cannot support the nomination today thank you chairman and it looks to me like we are done. >> i have a statement to me

thank you for attending today and for your attendance today mr. reddig for your work in the past with veterans affairs we appreciate that very much. and all the questions provided please know that shed you serve the american agency will have no greater friend on this committee will continue to be the place that we hope you will count on us to be the greatest watchdog any member that wishes to submit questions on july 3 and without this hearing was adjourned thank you for your attendance. [inaudible conversations]

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>> at 3:30 a.m. awaken with the news that senator kennedy had been shot and critically wounded by an assassin senator jim johnson sent the speaker of the house which implored congress to enact a meaningful and effective gun control law much of the attention was centered on the talks to report on the impasse at those meetings that be anon those were far from optimistic. and with a massive new wave of assaults throughout the south

and then that high-end leverage and then at a news conference june 26 announcing this up in court chief justice warren was retiring. and then to make appointments to the high court he knew his choices would affect the nation long after he held office.

>> for those of you in the room and for those that are watching us on c-span i will do a short introduction in order of how long they have been covering the court on my far right covering the court since 1979 and usa today and other publications. with the companion book to this book