facebook, and we want to hear from you. tweet us, twitter.com/booktv. or post a comment on our facebook page, facebook.com/booktv. >> good evening, and thank you for joining us here at the mechanics institute at 57 post street in san francisco. i'm lauer or rah shepard -- laura shepard, director of events, and i'm pleased to welcome you to our program on harvey milk day for the book launch of "harvey milk: his lives and death" with author lillian faderman who will be in conversation with activist and author cleave jones. we would like to acknowledge our cosponsor for this event, the glbt historical society and museum. and i'd like to welcome gerard cos coslip here who's the communications director who will say a few words about the

historical society. [applause] >> thank you so much, laura, and thank you to the mechanics' institute. the society was founded 33, almost 34 years ago here in san francisco. we're an archive, a museum, research center, a public history center, and we're very honored, in fact, to be one of the places that holds a tremendous collection of material related to harvey milk. when harvey's estate was finally settled a few years ago, we received all of the personal belongings that his friends had helped of harvey's for all those years. so if you come to our museum in the castro, we have a permanent display on harvey's life and death. perhaps the most profountly moving object there is the suit that he was wearing when he was killed. it makes that act of violence very real. and in our archives we have a wide range of other material. you don't need to be a

researcher, just get an appointment, come and start looking through the materials. for those of you here in san francisco, please consider becoming a member. free add mission to our museum, our programs, a discount in our museum store. it's your support that makes our organization survive and grow and thrive. and i'm sure that the message is the same for the mechanics' institute. so, again, we're thrilled to be cosponsoring this event. and take a look in professor faderman's book, and you'll find a mention of our museum. thanks a lot. >> great. thank you, gerard. [applause] and yes, of course, for those of you who are new to the mechanics' institute, we'd like to invite you to come on wednesday at noon for a free tour of the library which you are in right now and also see the rest of our beautiful building. also become, consider becoming a member and attend most of our programs for free. the mechanics' institute comets to be one of the most -- continues to be one of the most

vital cultural and literary centers in the bay area with ongoing author event, panel discussions on topical issues. our film series on friday night, book clubs, the writers' group, chess classes and tournaments and so much more that's going on here seven days a week. also after our program tonight books by both of our authors will be on sale, and they will be signing books for you. we invite you to also join us down at the bar for a postevent gathering. the dada bar is on our first floor. harvey milk is celebrated and commemorated today throughout the country and especially in san francisco. as we pay tribute to his work as a community leader and civil servant, we salute his passions for equality, human rights and

social justice. right now more than ever we need harvey milk to inspire us to make our voices heard, to stand up, to speak truth to power and to make a difference in our democracy. and so tonight to talk about his life and work, we have two experts who have personal, deep personal ties to harvey milk and to his causes. lillian faderman is an internationally known scholar of lesbian and lgbt history and literature as well as ethnic history and hit church "the new york times" -- literature. "the new york times" named three of her books on its notable books of the year including surpassing the love of men, odd girls and twilight lovers and the gay revolution. faderman's work has been translated into numerous languages. and among her honors are six

lambda literary awards, two american library association awards and several lifetime achievement awards for scholarship including yale university's james brudner award, the publishing triangle award, the golden crown literary society trailblazer award and many others. cleave jones began his career as an activist in san francisco in 1970s when he was befriended by pioneer, gay rights leader harvey milk. after milk's death jones cofounded the san francisco aids foundation and conceived the idea of the aids memorial quilt which memorializes over 35 -- 85,000 americans who have die from aids. he lives in san francisco and works as a labor activist, and he is the author of "when we

rise: my life in the movement." which won the 2017 lambda literary award. so please welcome lillian faderman and cleave jones. [applause] >> welcome to san francisco, lillian. >> thank you. i'm happy to be here. >> it's good to see you. as you may be able to tell, i have a terrible cold. [laughter] but i drag my butt out of bed, because i wanted to be here to see you and especially on harvey's birthday. finish and i posted earlier on social media that meeting harvey was the single most important thing that ever happened to me in my whole life, and it's hardly an overstatement. i also want to acknowledge the glbt history society. some of its founders were among my dear friends in the early and mid 1970s and also to say that

it's very cool to me that harvey's bull horn is now on display in the smithsonian -- [applause] yes. and it's had its home at the history society museum on 18th street for many years, but i've borrowed it back to be at the smithsonianing for three years, and then it will be returned to san francisco and back to the history society. hopefully in a new museum. so it's an institution that is worthy of your support, and i think you probably want me to shut up now so we can hear from our author, lillian. [laughter] >> thank you, cleve. like any gay californian in the 1970s, of course i heard of harvey milk. i think the first time i heard about him was during the anita

bryant debacle. you'll remember that in 1977 she founded save our children and manage to repeal -- managed to repeal the miami-dade gay rights ordnance. and in big cities all over the country, there were protests. it was orange tuesday. in san francisco harvey led the charge with cleve as his very able assistant. and, of course, i heard about how brilliantly he led the protest. it was a five-mile march all over or san francisco. it also averted riots because, as you can imagine, the gay community was furious. so i first came to admire him in 1977 around orange tuesday of 1977. and then i heard about him when he ran for office as the first out gay man to run for a

significant office. there were two lesbians who had been elected in 1974, but harvey was the first gay man who was elected to a significant political office. and then, of course, i heard about him during the fight against the briggs initiatives in 1978. the briggs initiative battle was really beautifully organized up and down the state. but harvey was the face of much of it. and his debate with sally gearhart against briggs on television was brilliant and memorable, and he was the one that the media very often came to. and so i knew about him for that. and then i was shocked and saddened as all of us were when he was assassinated.

and infuriated as all of us were when dan white got something like seven years and eight months of which he served only about five years because of the 2001 key defense. -- twinkie defense. his lawyers managed to argue that he wasn't himself. he had sugar poisoning because he was so upset about losing his job, that he subsisted on twinkies and coca-cola. and, of course, i knew about the white knight riot that followed it. and that's about all i knew about harvey until i started doing research for my book, "the gay revolution." ..

i had known he was in the course of my research, i discovered all of that. the book was an 800 page book that came out in 2015, but i covered from 1948-2015 and only spent about a dozen pages on harvey. and so when yale university press asked if i would be interested in writing a biography for the jewish lives series, of course i was thrilled at the jump at it immediately. i was very familiar with randy shilts, wonderful, the mayor of castro street, but i already knew from my research for the gay revolution that there were things that i could add that randy was not aware of. there were a number of letters that were not available to him

that had since become available. for instance, his chief correspondence from 1955 to the early '60s was a young woman by the name of susan davis, a heterosexual young woman that he wrote dozens and dozens of letters to and really bared his soul. and i was able to see a part of harvey that it don't think randy shilts could see in his wonderful book. his feelings about relationships, about who he was. another thing that wasn't available to harvey was there's a cash of letters at boston university that, , corresponded that had with the director of hair and jesus christ superstar. and he was very important in harvey's life.

harvey works for, with him for a number of years and he really brought to harvey a whole new aspect of life. i was able to include what i found in the boston university collection in the book. and then i also interviewed a number of harvey's relatives, his extended family. i was able to find out a good deal about his immigrant grandfather, and his father and his mother. and so there's a lot of material in the book about how harvey's jewish background influenced him and his politics and the person that he became. and, of course, randy shilts in that wonderful book couldn't know what would happen with harvey in subsequent years.

he has been more honored that any gay person in modern history. i first found out about the "time" magazine 1999 article of the 100 most important individuals of the 20th century. not 20th century america, all of, everyone, the whole world and 20th century. harvey was included in the section called heroes and icons, together with anne frank, shake rivera, the kennedys, and mother teresa. [applause] >> the only out gay person to be included in the list of 100 most influential individuals of the 20th century. as you all know there's a wonderful documentary about in that came out in 1984 and, of course, the 2008 film milk that

cleve was very important in, and just the honors that he has received have been quite astonishing. he received from president obama the medal of freedom, which is the highest honor that an american who was not in the military can get, , in 2009. the governor of california proclaimed an annual harvey milk day. in 2014 the u.s. postal service issued a stamp with his image. in 2016 the secretary secretary of the navy announced that the ship was being built that would be named after him. and as you know, and that no how hard you would like that, but a terminal, and i say that because harvey was so against airport expansion, and a terminal is being named after him.

[laughing] >> i i do think you would appreciate the ship is an oil or. >> right. what i try to do in this book is not only present a lot of material that randy shilts didn't present, and i should say that newspapers are really important, very vital, for anyone who does research on harvey milk. and so i i studied his papers t the san francisco public library. i studied them extensively, and there was a lot of material he didn't include in his book that i did include in my book from his papers. so i'm very grateful to him. but i've tried to suggest in the book harvey's complexity. i didn't want to write a hagiography. he was a very complicated man. i really grew to love him.

he was very admirable, very heroic, but he had a lot of warts and i try not to hide all of those warts. he had a genuine passion for justice, and it was really deep. but he also had a genuine passion for the limelight. i talked about that. i love come once true i discovered about him. when he was eight or nine years old he used to go to the come he lived in long island, woodmere long island. he used to love to go to the movie theater for matinees on saturday afternoons. what he loved about the matinees was not the movie. >> you didn't about the movies, but before the movies started, the manager of the theater would have a raffle, and the kids who won the raffle got to write up

on stage and bow and mug, and harvey loved that. it's such a lovable image of harvey that i come back to several times in the book because i think he genuinely loved the limelight. he really loved to be in front of audiences, from the time his eight '09 till the end. -- eight or nine. he fought fervently for all the oppressed people who are discriminated against, not just gave people but senior citizens and workers and racial and ethnic minorities. and yet he could be outrageously insensitive to individuals, and i don't hide that in the book. i think it's just part of his great complexity. he was a very joyous disciplined

in the wildly sexual gay culture in san francisco and the new york. and yet he could be so emotionally faithful to his partners, even when it seemed quite hopeless. an unthinking particularly of poor jack, the young man that harvey lived with for a couple of years who committed suicide. harvey's trends hold them that jack just wasn't salvageable, jack would not be a good partner as harvey became supervisor, if harvey was serious about his political career. and yet there was no way that harvey could give up on him, to the very end. i think that such an interesting complexity about him. he was a chameleon who could

absolutely change his appearance so incredibly. i'm sure all of you have seen pictures of him when he first ran for office, that first run in 1973 with a bushy ponytail and a big mustache and a denim shirt. and, of course, there were no district elections in 1973 and so we had to run for all of san diego, and he realized that that wasn't going to cut it. he got 17,000 votes, which is a lot but there was no way he is going to win office. so he shaved his mustache, tied his hair. he bought some secondhand suits and ties, and he looked very dapper and he was a whole different harvey milk on the surface, but inside i think he remained the same. i don't think he ever changed who he was deep inside. he changed his style easily, but

he was just very steadfast to his principles. in this biography i really hoped to make my readers feel what i came to feel, and that is how interesting and how complex and how really lovable he was, warts and all. so i will stop here and maybe cleve will say a few words and will have some -- >> i'd like you to speak a little bit about series of this book is a part of. i don't know, i don't ever remember harvey speaking about religion but his jewish identity was very much at his core. when i think about them coming of age on the east coast during such a dark time, the tragedy that were unfolding in europe. so when i first heard about this project of yours i was particularly excited about that part of it. could you say that more about that?

>> yes. the book as i mentioned was published through the yale university press jewish lives series, and harvey, like i would say more than half of the subjects in the jewish lives series, was a secular jew. he was not at all religious. he had a bar mitzvah and that was kind of the end of religion for him. interestingly enough, walter kaplan, who is here, tells me that harvey attended passover satyrs at walters house, and his very last year of the high holidays that year, yom kippur and rosh hashanah were an october, and he did attend the jewish synagogue that last year, and what was in his heart when he attended the synagogue i don't know. terrible things had happened to him and to all of san francisco,

and the country that last year. in fact, just a month or two before his lover, jack lira had committed suicide. harvey was under investigation by the fbi, an investigation that was actually called by the people who had been instrumental in 330 grove. i think they're all sorts of traumas that bothered him the last couple of months of his life. i don't know if that's what brought him to attend the jewish day synagogue, but any case he was there for both rosh hashanah and yom kippur. i think that the reason his

jewish background was so important to him has to do with the time that he grew up. he was born in 1930. he was certainly cognizant of what was going on in europe at that time. on long island there was actually the german american bund which was a nazi organization that had huge rallies, only a few miles away from where he lived. he was certainly aware of that. he actually talked about the fall of the warsaw ghetto in 1943. his parents of course were very upset about it, and he said that the adults in his family told him that the jews of the warsaw ghetto fought and fought gallantly, even though they knew

it was a losing battle. because when such evil decisions on the world, you have to fight. and that became an important metaphor for him through many of his speeches. he often mention the holocaust. and through the holocaust he gave a warning to gave people about how it was important to see the early on where our enemies were, and to organize and fight back. and over and over again in his speeches, that was a metaphor. another thing that was important to him about his judaism is the concept of repair the world. his mother was, i think, very influenced by that. his mother died in the early '60s, in her early '60s, and it was in the early '60s, it was

1962. she died of a heart attack that she had when she brought a 24-pound turkey to a settlement house so that indigent people could have turkey for thanksgiving. she languished in the hospital for five days and she died on, ironically, november 27, which was the same date that harvey died decades later. but my important point here is, i think he learned about from im his mother. and also from his grandfather, his immigrant grandfather whom he loved very much. he said that his grandfather used to tell him, don't hide your green hair. people will see it anyway. meaning, if you're different, don't be shy about it. just be who you are, and i think that influenced him. his grandfather started out as a peddler, started out actually in

lithuania as a dairy man and couldn't make it. had five kids, came to kansas city to work for a stepbrother. couldn't make it there. the stepbrother paid him a pittance. he went to long island, got a peddler pack, was a peddler for a while. did well, opened up a dry goods store. did well and it opened up the first department store on long island. it wasn't a huge department store by macy's standards, but it was a department store, and he became a philanthropist. i think harvey was very influenced by that, very influenced by the idea that you have to help those who are not as privileged as you. you have to help people fight poverty and fight deprivation and fight discrimination. >> i loved it. i really loved it. fortunately, they're still quite

a few of us left around who actually knew the guy, and we have all shared our stories over the decades. i think it's important to people, especially when talking people and i special to welcome those few under 40 that are here tonight. [laughing] bless your hearts. but when i talk to your people, especially young kids, , i wantd to know that harvey was not a genius. he was not the same. his life was really a mess and a lot of ways, and that in his life he suffered through so many of the challenges and defeats and humiliations that most of us have to endure in our lifetime. i think that makes his story more powerful. now that he is been portrayed by sean penn and all of this, there's this tendency in our culture to really create these very artificial sort of superhero characters, and i find that in your book, even though i

thought i had heard just about all come , every story that wast him, almost every page there was something i didn't know before, especially the details about his family and it was just, it was a joy to read and left me with a much deeper sense of this man who has been so, you know, incredibly important in my own life. i'm hoping we have questions and comments from the audience. don't be shy. [inaudible] >> i talk about it at length in the book, and it was very sad and it happened in the last weeks of his life. 330 grove was a wonderful community center, and it was going to be demolished to make way for a parking garage. and mayor moscone he it was very

pro-gay said that he would help 330 grove get grants to open another center elsewhere. and he asked paul hardman who was the director to write a proposal. he did and moscone he gave it to harvey. harvey thought that the proposal didn't cover the things that he thought were very necessary to cover. and so he rewrote the proposal. he submitted the proposal. he received a grant from the city, and the committee that gave them the grant had some very pro-gave people on it that moscone had appointed, and paul

hardman and others said that harvey stole the proposal and the committee was stacked, and he had promised to the proposal that he would open a community center. he found a place for a site but paul and others got the fbi to investigate whether there was hanky-panky going on about the proposal with george moscone and harvey milk. and, of course, he became a moot point after both were killed, but that's the sad story that it did not want to hide. >> there was no evidence of hanky-panky though. >> no. no, there was no evidence. and, of course, the investigation did not go on for very long because harvey -- >> a turf war. >> yeah, it was a turf were

actually. >> i have a question over here. >> i heard you earlier talk about harvey and george muskogee and the relationship and friendship. could you talk a little bit more about that? had they known each other for a long time before harvey was elected and moscone became mayor? >> i think that harvey genuinely admired muskogee, because moscone really thought to repeal the sodomy law that was repealed in california in 1975. and he knew that must coney was a good friend of the communities -- must coney. harvey as you all probably know ran for office several times. he ran for office in 73. he ran for office and 75. he lost. he ran for office and 76. he lost and defined the one in 77. in 75 when he ran and lost, as soon as he knew that it lost, he

immediately turned castro camera into headquarters for moscone for mayor. must coney have been the president of the california sene and you want to become the mayor of san francisco. and he did a wonderful job of bringing out the gay vote for george moscone picked and moscone won by a little over 4000 votes. he won the primary of course against dianne feinstein and others, and he had a runoff with a man by the name of july, who is very anti-day. moscone won by little over 4000 votes as i said, and it was a big party afterwards and moscone particularly thank harvey milk, because he really attributed those winning 4000 votes to the gay community, and harvey milk had helped to get out the gay

vote. harvey milk, by then, this was his second unsuccessful run for office, and he was becoming a little more savvy as a politician. he said to moscone at one point, i would really like an appointment as a commissioner. and moscone appointed him to the board of appeals, board of permit appeals. harvey did a fabulous job on the board of permit appeals. he wasn't on it very long, but his third day on the board of permit appeals, i i case came o the board of a korean woman who wanted to open a massage parlor, and she was denied a a licensed she appealed it. two men from the vice squad came to talk about why she was denied a license, and they said that they would not give her a license because she couldn't speak english and she couldn't

understand the rules and regulations about massage parlors. and harvey said, this is ridiculous. i don't want to see him again unless you have a good complaint. he essentially sent them running with their tails between their legs, and the woman got her license for the massage parlor. so he was wonderful and brave on the board of permit appeals, but it only served for about a month when the assembly district seat in his district opened up and he decided he would run for assembly. and he couldn't know about california politics. he couldn't know that george moscone had already promised leo mccarthy that he would put in, he would endorse art agness for the assembly seat. and when george moscone found

out that harvey was running come he told that he can't do that, and harvey did it anyway. george moscone told the san francisco examiner, if he runs he's going to be the shortest commissioner san francisco ever had at a not talking about his height. so he fired him from the commission, and at that point they didn't like each other very much. but once harvey became a a supervisor, he worked very closely with george moscone and it was a very productive relationship. but they had had their difficult moments. >> could you perhaps talk a little bit about harvey's relationship with his father and his brothers and sisters, and how that impacted his life?

>> he didn't have sisters. he had one brother, robert. i talk about that pretty extensively in the book. harvey's father was born in lithuania. when harvey's grandfather left, harvey's grandfather came to america i himself, as was often the case. the man of the family got someone to sponsor him. he came along and made enough money to bring the rest of the family with him. so harvey's father was six months old when he left their shtetl in lithuania. he couldn't bring the family to america until harvey's father, whose name was william, i think it was six years old by then. it took about five and half years before he had enough money to bring them. and i think that william, built

as you like to be called, had a very hard time with his father. we can imagine why very easily. he left the family when bill was six months old and suddenly they come here and here's this tall american stranger who takes over his mothers love and that in itself was difficult, then another child was born. the six child, and he was called babe, and he was called bade his whole life, but that must really have hurt william, bill, he guess he was out of the role as babe. and then bills mother died, harvey's grandmother died, and he married again. that was a difficult for bill. he had a really contentious relationship. with his father.

at the risk of being an amateur psychologist, i think it we have that kind of contentious relationship parents, it's sometimes carries over into our parenting. and i think it did. bill had a very difficult relationship with harvey. i think there was physical abuse. he didn't have a good relationship with robert, his only brother either. i don't think robert took it very seriously. robert was four years older, and even when harvey was an adult, when he ran for office robert admitted that he thought that's harvey being harvey again. what he remembered was the image of the eight or nine year old kid wanting to run up on stage and bowing, and he didn't take him seriously. robert was sort of a conventional guy, and harvey

wasn't, and harvey never made a lot of money, and robert made a decent living, and those were roberts values. so it's always a contentious relationship with his family. not with his mother and not with his grandmother, but with his father and brother. i think it was very difficult. harvey cut robert specific outcome of his will. he had a clause in his will when he specifically says that nothing is to go to robert, not that there was a lot of financial stuff that he could pass on, but it was just a hard time that they both had together that was reflected. >> did harvey milk like dan white, and was a courteous to him? >> you know, that was a very complicated relationship, too.

dan white ran, telling his district, district 16, which was a working-class district, that when he got into, onto the board of supervisors he would make sure that all of the social deviance in san francisco were put in their place. he said that he didn't like the way san francisco was going, and he meant particularly i think gave people. he was extremely conservative. san francisco voted almost unanimously against the briggs initiative, at almost every precinct the briggs initiative went down except for four precincts, and those precincts were all in dan white's district. so those with the people that dan white was representing and that was dan white. they put him there for a reason. one story i tell that i think is

sad but nevertheless, it was the truth and i didn't want to hide the truth, and i describe it as act i of the tragedy. suddenly been a contentious relationship between harvey and dan on the board of supervisors, but dan white had one issue that really excited him, and that one issue was there was a home for wayward girls in dan's district, but by the 1970s girls who were wayward were not contrite, as they were in the 1950s, and so not many girls went into the home for wayward girls. and so the nuns who ran the home decided they would sell it to a city group that would make a

home for troubled youth. and the people in dan's district did not want troubled youth living there. they thought that those kids would rape and loot on the streets. it was like not in my backyard, and that became dan's big issue. well, what happened in the meantime is that harvey immediately proposed a gay-rights ordinance to the board of supervisors, and diane feinstein who was the head of the board said that this ordinance has to go to committee, that it's going to go to i think it was called police fire and safety committee. and she had put dan white in charge of the committee because dan white had been a fireman and the policeman. and, of course, dan white would not let that bill out of committee, we can even let the committee discussed it. harvey by then really new how to

play the game of politics. he went to dan and he said if you release that bill from the committee, i will support your opposition to the home for troubled youth. dan white was pretty sure of five votes on the board. there were 11 people. you had to be able to count to six, and harvey what event the six vote. as a dan immediately gave an incredible speech, not at all characteristic of him but he just wanted to get his bill passed so he told the people on the committee that he had served with gave people will and black people in vietnam and he knew they could do as good a job as anyone else, and it was unfair to discriminate against black

people and gave people and the committee should vote in favor of the bill and get it out of the committee, and that's what they did. it went to the board of supervisors. the board of supervisors was going to vote on it. dan white's bill came up, and harvey couldn't do it. he just could not do what he promised dan white, and so he voted against the opposition to having a home for troubled youth built, or open up to troubled youth in dan white's district. and dan white was furious. he immediately made a motion as soon as harvey's bill came up to send it back to committee and, of course, nobody would go along with that notion because it was so patently obvious what he was

doing. and so harvey's bill passed on the first reading, ten to one, the one vote against it wasn't dan's vote. the second reading the past ten to one. the one vote against it of course was dan, and it was signed into law by mayor moscone. but dan never forgave harvey for that. and then a century on the dan white resigned from the board of supervisors in november of 1978, and he had a lot of pressure from his supporters like the board of realtors, because he knew people like harvey wanted rent control and dan white would argue against rent control. a few days after, and the board of supervisors had voted to accept his resignation a few days after he resigned.

he came to george moscone is office to say he had made a mistake and he wanted his job back, and according to testimony, moscone said anyone can make a mistake. let me figure out how to do this. when harvey found out that moscone was going to reinstate dan white, he said are you crazy? why in the world would you do this? this is a right-wing kook and you have an opportunity to put a liberal on the board of supervisors, and why are you going against what your constituency would like you to do? and dan white new i think that harvey had discouraged moscone from reinstating him here i think that, that together with his homophobia which never really changed, despite his speech to his committee, i think that is what made him do what he did. >> dan was a sad case.

harvey took to the horse trading like a duck to water. he just, he knew how it worked. >> yes. >> and he worked at. i actually think he promised moscone before he got the commission appointment he wouldn't run for office. but dan was just always -- i do recall occasions were harvey was gentle with him, and when diane feinstein was gentle with them. >> she nurtured him actually. >> yes. after use of the word. she attempted to mentor him. my take on the guy was that he was probably not that bright, had possibly been traumatized by his experiences, but anything that think most of us which is taken as normal give-and-take of political dealing, he thought of as moral outrage. i think he just couldn't process it and couldn't think strategically make it happen and

felt mocked. harvey could be so snide, and to think this idea that this gay jewish guy was mocking him was probably what pushed him over the edge. >> i think that's true. carol root silver was on the board of supervisors then told me, she sat here and harvey satcher and dan white sat in the middle, and dan white would say such crazy things that they would pass notes back and forth saying things like, can you believe it again next i think that dan white knew he was mocked. he was in way above his head. he was the youngest person ever elected for the board of supervisors. he was 31. he had no advanced education. he was a fireman. he was a policeman. he thought for a while he would be a writer, that didn't work out picky with in many ways a lost soul.

he did know how to do his homework. i don't think he ever really knew what was going on in the board of supervisors. and harvey was the opposite. harvey would do his homework so meticulously, and i think there was a lot of hostility because he felt people didn't respect him, dan white felt people didn't respect him on the board of supervisors. >> harvick used to tell me to wear my tightest possible genes because it drove dan white crazy. [laughing] >> was harvey involved anyway in the production of hair? >> he was a gopher. i found this very interesting

article in the "new york times." the reporter had come to interview tom, and harvey was there. the reporter describes harvey at great length with long hair in love beads line on some pillows in the room where he was being interviewed. and the application is that harvey was just so high on pot that he just didn't really know what was going on. but that was his involvement. [laughing] >> which of his family members were you able to india? >> i interviewed michael salem who i found out about michael because i found this wonderful video on youtube, and i suggest you all go home and watch it. harvey, at the age of 11, it's

quite incredible. it was a ceremony called a page in hoffman, which is a jewish ceremony for a firstborn who is not a leaky part of a historically priestly class of the jewish religion. the video, picture shows like three minutes of harvey but you standing on a staircase. he is 11 years old. michael salem was i think 30 days old, it's a 30 days sentiment of the firstborn male. >> who was what to harvey? >> i second cousin to harvey. michael's mother was harvey's cousin, she married a man by the name of salem who actually turn to harvey once in a while for

financial advice, but they were very wealthy but harvey was a securities analyst. but in any case, the video is just, it's quite incredible. i'm sure you all know transparent, and remember at the beginning of transparent there's a young man whose kind of posing, that's exactly what harvey does. he's standing on a staircase. the camera is on him very short of it is kind of like this. [laughing] >> and credible. if you get into youtube, i have it in a note. i think it's something like harvey milk family moved something like that. you'll see it in my notes in the book, if you look at the book you will find the video. so i interviewed michael.

i ended an man by the name of sam who was also second cousin. his mother had been the sister to bill, and his mother, helen, who died just about six months before i started doing the interview, she was the family historian. but he kept all of these pictures. i have the most incredible picture of the grandfather who come as a told you, came to the country with nothing and ended up in this picture, you will see, like a nobleman, if you come back to the shtetl in lithuania it would've thought this was a nobleman. i interviewed another second cousin by the name of sherry

fienberg, who didn't know harvey well but could tell me some interesting things about, she got married just about the time jack lira killed himself. and harvey was invited to the wedding. and robert was there of course and didn't want to say that harvey is a homosexual in san francisco, and his lover has just killed himself, so all he said was harvey is too busy to come. he's in politics in california. this was back east of course. and then interviewed a woman by the name of leslie burke milk who had married into the milk family and became something of a historian for the milk family. so they were all very helpful. and sam, whose mother was the family historian, was able to send me in the direction of the

kansas city census in 1900. i i think i found on my own the manifest when both the grandfather came by himself and then the whole family came. i just got wonderful material from harvey's family. >> when dan white entered city hall with the gun, we know he's going after george moscone. is there any way of knowing if he intended to find harvey milk, or if harvey just turn out to be accidentally in the way? >> no, he intended it. he loaded his gut and then he put ten more bullets in his pants pockets. he killed moscone.

the mayors office is on one side at city hall, and there's a long walk to the other side, and he walked rapidly to the other side. harvey was standing outside talking to someone outside an office talking to someone. dan white said, can i see in my office? incredibly, harvey followed him into the office. but it was very intentional. carol route silver told me he also intended to kill her, and then white did an interview when he got out of prison in which he said that carol was going to remember the exact language but something like the lowest snake of the bunch, or something like that. and she said that if she had arrived at city hall at her usual time, she would be dead, but she had had breakfast that

morning with a big donor to her campaign, and so she came much later, and by then dan white had left city hall after he killed moscone and harvey. no, it wasn't a spur of the moment thing. he was very clear that he wanted to do it. >> curious, with tom o'horgan, when joe campbell and harvey broke up, campbell gravitated towards warhol and factory. was tom o'horgan and warhol and the factory seems like a logical sort of connection. >> it does seem like a logical connection but that isn't anything that i was able to trace but, of course, it is logical. they were both very cutting edge in what they did, but i think that joe campbell got involved

with warhol before harvey got involved with tom o'horgan, , ad i don't think their paths crossed. harvey and joe remained friends, and i tell some stories about that but it don't think harvey ever met andy warhol. >> did you find any evidence of harvey's dealings with jim jones? >> i did, yes, and that was heartbreaking stuff. jim jones really, he took every progressive politician in san francisco in, and when he was in san francisco he did do some wonderful things. he fed the poor and he clothe the naked, as the bible said, and you supported gay rights. he was very much in favor of the 1975 marriage that wasn't finally recognized with andrew

sullivan and his partner. he actually got his congregation to campaign for harvey at one point. harvey attended the people's temple, and i found some letters at the california historical society where harvey actually wrote to jim jones about his going to the people's temple. harvey could be very gushy and very romantic in his letters, and he said something like, i saw today what you wanted me to see, and i will be back. it was just this lovely letter about how much he appreciated jim jones. and then at one point jim jones had taken people to jonestown. there were a lot of complaints from family members in the bay area, and they complained to the

department of health education welfare as a was then, and hcw told the post office to not male social security checks to jonestown. and harvey, jim jones wrote to harvey saying can you help me, please? my people are not getting social security checks. and harvey actually wrote to hew and wrote to the post office and said this is unfair. these people at work all their lives for these checks, and i'm sure he's using lines that jim jones had him, but he said they're doing something very important in jonestown. they are learning new agricultural methods that can feed the hungry all over the world, and it was a very lovely letter. and, of course, he couldn't really know what jim jones really was. i could imagine how traumatized, how awful it must've been for him windows 900 people died and leo ryan was killed, and leo

ryan's assistance were killed. >> a wiki people's temple a a couple times. >> with harvey? >> once with harvey and once with and. i think another time possibly with dick or jim. i remember harvey saint be careful, he said that the whole place bugged. but i think it's important, this is the part of the story that i find probably the most troubling is that he, like every other liberal left politician in the whole city, and i think hindsight being 2020, nobody then had any, i think most people understood he was a megalomaniac but it doesn't anybody could have imagined in the wildest nightmare what is going to unfold in the jungle there. i thought the guy was completely insane, but he also was the head of this incredible army, and

they had a newspaper that was delivered, hand delivered by volunteers to a think every doorstep in san francisco, and every paragraph had a quote from reverend jim jones. my family is also from indian and reverend jones used to tell me that we were probably distant cousins. and i was thinking, god, i hope not affect by to think of all the mistakes harvey made, that was the most terrible and i think the only way to mitigate, you know, response to that is to understand that just about everybody was taken in by it and no one could've possibly imagined that unfolding. >> i actually found another letter at the california historical society that willie brown had written to the prime minister of guiana saying that if you would permit jim jones and his people to settle in guiana, he would do wonderful things for the country. so willie brown was taken in as

much as harvey and all of the politicians were. and look, what jim jones could do is mobilize his congregation to get out the vote, and they did that for harvey. they distributed thousands of leaflets for harvey. how could a politician who didn't understand how terrible jim jones was, how could you resist if someone says they're going to distribute thousands and thousands of leaflets for you? >> i have a quick question. did harvey have ambitions beyond his work on the supervisory supr board? and what you think was his next step? >> at one point moscone took his vacation, he went to europe and it was always the mayors cussed when he took a vacation to appoint someone in aroma mayor,

or acting mayor -- in aroma. so he appointed harvey and harvey just a fantastic things like you went to a ribbon-cutting and he cut the ribbon and he said, i'm probably only mayor in the whole country who will first cut the ribbon and then put in my hair. [laughing] he loved that experience. at one point he took people on his staff to the castro for lunch in the may oral limousine and he was interviewed by the san francisco examiner, as i said, were you going? he said we're going to the castro on city business. if you give me a minute i'll think what it is. he loved playing it up like that. at one point mike wong who did a

wonderful job in harvey's campaigns and was his friend and was sometimes photographer and work closely with harvey and vote of the memoir, and unpublished memoir about harvey, but at one point during the time when harvey was acting mayor, he was posing for photographs and mike was there and mike said he better not act like you like it too much. people think you want to be mayor. harvey said let them think. he ran against art agnes but art at no saw what a great politician harvey was, and at one point with our agnes was in the assembly, he turned to harvey to help them with the kbytes assembly, and build those in the assembly to push it through. our agnes promised he would help

him a subsequent run, run for mayor perhaps. he was already thinking that this next one for supervisor and willie brown said that he would be the honorary chair of the committee for harvey milk for reelection for supervisor. yes, he had real ambitions and i've no doubt that they would of been fulfilled. he could've done wonderful things. >> i agree. looking back at it, -- [inaudible] a part of the legacy was the commitment to introduce the nondiscrimination bill to every single year until finally, it took forever to get out of committee. years and years more. wiley got past by both houses and then we had a republican governor vetoed it. we nearly burned down the state-building. but i also think he probably he

almost certainly could become mayor, and what a difference that might have made the onset of the plague to have an openly gay man was the mayor of a major american city. that's the part that causes me the most grief, when i contemplate what might have been then. >> cleve, you mentioned how you -- [inaudible] not turned into a superhero which is often the way. given that you were there in the '70s and state and is it up to now, it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on whether his reputation has slightly evolved or changed the last 40 years? >> well, i was reflecting when lillian was taken that anything his family members. you know, now he is so well

known but his memory was saving very quickly, and part of that was the horrible loss of a generation and their stories. when i was a little gay kid on the streets here, i love talking to the old queens, learning from them about their experiences and how they survived. of course so much of that was disrupted so awfully by the epidemic. harvey samet, i remember, being very ambivalent about him. for 30 years we were doing everything we could to keep his name alive, getting the school named after them, hitting the subway stop named after them. getting the little statue in city hall at all of these things added to recall any involvement from the famine at all. and it was becoming really painful for me because, , afteri started the aids quilt again traveling constantly and losing a lot of campuses, colleges and

universities as part of hiv prevention staff. the story of the quilt is connected to harvey because i had the idea of one of the candle at memorials for harvey when the death toll hit 1000. i would begin begin my stories by saint how many of you know who harvey milk was? not of young people raise their and settle. use one or two professors in the back to its a i know, and his name was just vanishing. .. to bring his name back and

you know, that comes with great peril. i was so glad you did this on rent control. a lot of people seem to think all harvey cared about was lgbt q and harvey was one of the most genuinely empathetic people i've ever known . he could play act, he could make deals, he could play that game but if you were in pain whatever that pain was, harvey would look at you and he would bethere for you . so that's another reason i'm so grateful to you for doing this book because even for me, i thought about this man every day of my life since that day and i learned so much more and had an even greater respect and love for the guy.so thank you do we

have time for more questions? >> timefor one more question so let's take it over here . >> harvey milk documentary alluded harvey milk and diane feinstein often locked heads. i was wondering if you could tell me if that's true in your research and if that's true with your experiences? >> i think it's essentially true . harvey was in san francisco in 1969 and diane feinstein ran for office and the one and harvey at that time saw her as a rich lady in pearls. she was much more than that, she really was pro-gay and she did wonderful things but i don't think harvey liked her very much. he thought she was in the hands of the real estate developers and got elected

because she had arich father . but i think they had tension. she certainly -- she gave a beautiful speech at his memorial about how his low sexuality let him see other people impression and identify with that oppression . but i think they had ahard time together. but you have insights into that . [laughter] >> it's interesting, diane announced her retirement from politics entirely because everything was so polarized and another time you to the folks that were split on board, they still are and we still have this constant

one-vote hanging the balance whether we are going liberal way or more way and i think harvey saw her as you know, part of the ruling class of the city that continue to control the city and as part of the line of succession. we will see what happens next and i do think he probably underestimated her . at the beginning. something people should never do with diane feinstein because like her or dislike her she was extremely intelligent and imean , look at what she's done over her career, it's extraordinary but no, they did not like each other and diane was very proper and harvey was not. i think the best was when,

only harvey would leave i take to a mayor directing who to appoint as his successor in the event of his assassination. i said harvey, you're not important enough to get shot. you're not doctor king, you're not bobby kennedy but you left instructions on not only who would be acceptable to replace him but who would be unacceptable and one of the names was the one most of us ralliedaround was and cronenberg . and feinstein, how did she delay that? weeks and weeks, it was at least six weeks everybody's getting more and more anxious and what leaks out finally was einstein paying something about an , a nice young woman but she would show up at aboard woman meeting in leather pants.

no leather inchambers . >> we have one quick question over here. we're going to have to wrap up afterwards. do you want to ask a question? >> i wonder if you could talk about harvey's military experience. >> yes, he told people he got a dishonorable discharge.a lot of people in the military when he did get dishonorable discharges, harvey was not one of them but i think he was making a political point. that is that homosexuals were which hunted out of the military in the 1950s , but he kind the point by saying that he was and that's not true. he became a lieutenant for a

while stationed in san diego from 63 to 65 and he had a fine time in san diego.yet that wasn't true. >> i'd like to thank lillian faderman and cleve jones for an amazing evening. [applause] and its harvey milk day so please take harvey's compassion, is savvy and his humor out into the streets and into the public arena so thank you for joining us. we will have books for sale and for signing and you can come up and meet lillian and cleve personally. thank you for the evening. [applause]

>> here's a look at authors featured on book tvs and two, our author interview program that includes best-selling nonfiction books. physician mona hannah artesia detailed her efforts to provide scientific evidence that children in flint michigan were exposed to lead poisoning through the city's water supply. john delaney, first congressman to declare with the election laid out his vision for america and television and radio host bill press reflected on his broadcast career. in the coming weekson "after words", amanda carpenter , staff for ted cruz and jim dineen will provide a critical analysis of trumps political messaging. and this weekend, mohammed also molly talks about escaping rex and the war in yemen withthe help of interfaith activists . >> i must live the work i was doing.

i was with my family, with my friends. i had only $20 in my pocket. i don't know why you would leave and come to the united states, because it's the only way if you want to go on living and the amazing thing when i came to the united states i was never thinking i wouldbe in the united states . i was at that time just dumbstruck over what happened to me and i couldn't focus and when i came here, the most amazing thing i like about the united states is that you can say whatever you want to say. you can be whatever you want to be. it's an amazing thing you have in the united states. for me, it's a great state. >> "after words" airs on book tv at 10 pm eastern and sunday 9 pm eastern and

pacific time. all previous "after words" are available to watch our website, booktv.org. >> how do we fit into this? how do we fit in, ed? >> what makes us human? what makes us human is an emotional apparatus that drives all of our behavior seeking as we do rational means of achieving our innate goals. every minute of our lives and where did that come from?it came from the evolution of emotional sensors and the massive cerebral memory capacity that we acquired in enabling those actions that were emotionally guided and where do those come from? they came from 1 million years of what we call hunter

gatherer life and our ancestors, the one that created humanity, and history you should keep in mind and not begin with the origin of literacy 6000 years ago. it did not begin with the origins of the neolithic. it began 1 million years ago with an existence that depended upon intimate relation to the natural world . and appreciation of all the natural world policies and a love of the home at one form in the natural world inevitable that deeply in our thinking we should turn to great satisfaction and

imaginative power in that world that gave us birth. okay. >> it's pretty hard to top that but i think if you could give it a shot. >> i think and also points out and i often tell my wife that we only recently came inside. as a species we've been outside for millions of years and there is the spiritual connection to that and in my experience in the natural parks that i could take any individual regardless of their social economic ethnic background to the rim of the grand canyon or into the high spheres and see the milky way or just stand beneath giant sequoias and they are moved.

there's something that happens to those individuals in these spaces. to honor kerry who was so gracious to write the introduction to the book that gary mac less and i have written, i want to read a little section from kerry's introduction. kerry has that extraordinary skill of writing eloquently about our public lands and our parks and she has a deep spiritual side as well and often draws from her experiences with the native americans of our nation who often practiced spiritual connection. and one conversation with the utah eight uk, a guy i know, willie great eyes said this is not a time for anger, it is time for healing.

>> our public lands and forests, prairies, our national parks and monuments, wildlife refugees and wetlands and oceans are our common ground. our natural inheritance to be passed on from onegeneration to the next . they are our soul geographies, our landscapes imagination, the bed or an ecological state of mind. we are not only inspired by but healed by nature integrity, wholeness. each time i stand the needles overlooked in the midst of this mask emotional landscape, carved and created through wind and water time, i have the sensation of being very, very small yet very large at once. the navajo word for this kind of balance and beauty. we are one with the universe.

without a spiritual dimension to our as conservationists, we are only working for ourselves, not the future and certainly not for future generations of all species. >> watch this and other programs online booktv.org. >> i think we're good. >> good evening and welcome to area, we're so excited to have joe back for his new book on suspension and harper lee's father. he will also be on a panel at the mississippi book festival august 18 so i hope you will be able to attend, we are excited already and we're lining up some great authors for it. before we get started everyone else is your cell phones and also, i would like to say, a few things here we are excited about thatgo