by ben rhodes, after that, john carroyzou, in bad blood. and wrapping up our look at some of the books from indy bounds nonfiction best-seller list, i'll be gone in the dark, the late true trial journalists michelle, search for golden state killer who has been charged with murderers and 50 sexual assaults in california during 1970's and 80's, many authors have appeared on book tv, you watch them on our website, booktv.org. >> and now on book tv, investigative reporter ken besinger talk about the u.s.' government case against fifa, soccer's international body.

>> this book cannot be put down. should i raid the book? soccer is a passing significance in this book, this is a true crime kind of corruption and power and you will see names that you're familiar if you're reading newspapers today about what is going on in american politics. it's remarkable, amazing book, i encourage you to buy it. the other thing i encourage you to do is sign up to be on mailing list because we have events like this a couple of three times a week and you'll find if you start to come that it'll add something to your lives, thank you for being here, without further due alan and ken

bensinger, thank you for being here. [applause] >> i don't know where we start but thank you and most of what he said in what's going on in american politics was a lie about what i trained him to do. i think he learned a lot more than what i could ever teach him very fast and pleasure to be be. before i start talking to ken, ask you a little bit, who here is unfamiliar with the whole structure of international soccer? okay. let me get a quick primer. every country in the world that plays soccer and there's 211 of them has a national association and that runs their soccer program. then they all belong to fifa which is the international organization, that is the umbrella over all of soccer and then fifa for organizational purposes divides the world into

regions. so the catch-all with all of these scandals that have been going on is to feed the scandal. in one sense it is because it's under the fifa umbrella but as ken will get into it, most of the horrendous corruption occurred mostly frankly in south america and in north america and obviously they get their organizational by being part of fifa but basically all these local entities and all the regional entities have their own competition, sell tv, partnership rights which is of course where the money comes from. i want to make sure you all have that background and as burt said, crime story, what fascinating me in reading it was

i knew a lot of the players. i was in but thankfully not in a lot of the episodes that went on but how you pieced it altogether is just amazing to me because it's multinational, many years, you know, foreign parties like crazy, what was the process of piecing it altogether, doing the investigation and writing a really compelling book? >> thank you. before i answer that question i want to say that alan knows what he's talking about. i don't think we heard a full credential list for him but alan, please fill me in if i miss some things, he was in charge of running what was by most accounts the most successful world cup in history, certainly with the best attended

world cup in history in terms of number of people who went to it, profit compared to the others and alan was president of the united states soccer federation, one of those associations he mentioned that oversees the country's operations and routers -- reports to fifa and cofounder of major league soccer which is the professional league that has two teams in los angeles and has played all over the country. he's been on numerous fifa committees and been involved in the sport at the highest levels for decades. >> you might mention that one of the fifa committees, nobody laugh, the fifa ethics committee. [laughter] >> i said nobody laugh. and so another fun fact about alan, makes a cameo inside the book because unbeknownst to him,

he went to dinner with one of the secret cooperators the doj had enlisted and the guy was wearing a wire and -- [laughter] >> there was an fbi, an irs agent sitting in the same restaurant waiting for alan to put his foot in his mouth and he never did and they never did anything with him but they sure tried. >> the first thing i did was look at index, i was hoping my name wasn't in it and when it was in it, i was delighted that there was only one page, it couldn't have been too and then that's when i found out that the dinner that i had not only was the person i was having dinner who was the real whistle blower, if you will, on everything had a wire, actually the wire was a chip inside a key ring, that was bad enough but only later when i read your book that i found out that the fbi --

>> so i heard that it was distracting to them, beverly steakhouse and trendy at the time, distracting for them to pay attention to conversation because a whole gaggle of hollywood stars walked into the restaurant. fbi agents aren't necessarily use today that sort of thing so they i think they had trouble paying attention to the conversation. maybe that's what saved you, i don't know. >> whatever it is. [laughter] >> first draft of the book was about 60 or 70% longer from the final draft but even before that a moment that i was in the basement in argentina, buenos aires, going through newspapers from 1978 trying to learn as much as i could about a world that lived as being policemen -- problematic, i thought to myself, how the heck am i ever going to tell the story, so many

characters and moving parts and ultimately the answer was a lot of cutting and a lot of just removing material that seemed strenuous. i had an editor that edited with pencil and ups manuscript and tells you what sort of pencil to use and mail it back to him. that happened multiple times and i spent a lot of money on postage to make this book. his comments tended to be things like why do you have so many characters, too many, cut them, cut them. ultimately what it came down to was pairing it down, looking for what was the central most important story that kept it going forward. unfortunately some blood had to be shed and ultimately gave them smaller role in the story because they didn't get indicted

or arrested. >> that's why i was only one page? >> exactly. a good example would be a guy named ricardo tacheda, one to have most corrupt soccer officials in history. he was in the book and the argument with the editor he did get indicted but he's in brazil which doesn't extradite citizens and they will never get him and never going to leave and why don't we focus on the happy ending where they could get the guys. i'm glad to hear that it held the other coherently despite his absence. >> it was great. burt alluded to some of the things that's going on in washington and reading the book, that struck me a lot including that the original source was an irs agent and it was less about the glamorous stuff that you

read about in trials or in mystery books. it was just at core. tell everybody about how that went down and i'm just curious was he somebody that obviously you spent a lot of time with them or piecing it up afterwards? >> well, we start by saying that i'm a journalist and i don't do certain types of sourcing i can't talk about. [laughter] >> i can't -- there's sources i can name and sources i can't name. in this case characters that probably looks liked i talked to them, so i'm going to have to be like a magician and sort of not tell you all of the secrets unfortunately but i will tell you about him nonetheless, steve, a fun character because

he's very unlikely for the story, this is an investigation that was done out of a federal district in brooklyn, new york and actually at the time, they were having a lot of trouble making the case move forward. steve berryman is an irs in orange county, laguna office of internal renew -- revenue service. he grew up in england and was a liverpool fan. he's also great athlete. he got a division 1 scholarship to kick field goals for either southern or northern illinois university. when he wasn't quite enough to be nfl kicker he chose the next obvious path which would be irs agent and --

[laughter] >> and went down there and got, cut his teeth in originally river side county and then in orange county doing narco cases, busting drug runners and that sort of thing and the thing he said is these cases when the fbi would -- the dea would do them, they are chasing the drugs, they are chasing where is the drugs, let's find the drugs and he always said, he would say to colleagues, you can't complete the investigation until you figure out where the money is, they don't sell the drugs, that money is dirty too, part of transaction and until you find that you don't close the loop. that's where he took cases one count to 20 counts and that's what he brought to the case and what he convinced prosecutors in this case about money laundering case, first and foremost, that was the way to prove it and by

doing the really hard grueling work of looking at excel spreadsheets all day long you can make the case. it was a trial in this case last november, december, he spent 3 days in the stand which is a lot. only one more person spent in the stand, there was a screen and projecting up excel spreadsheets, no, no, flip to line 13,452, on row xxb, you know, there is -- there's the number that you're looking for and he wasn't testifying during the trial he was sitting there at the prosecution table with the computer looking at other excel spreadsheets because he was continuing to do what he does best. >> when i analyze to currently what's going on in washington, d.c., it's my theory that underlying everything that went

on with trump and the russians and everything else is financial transactions that i think are more questionable for many years and if you see -- what we can see from the outside is what mueller is doing sure looks that way, manafort, manafort and gates who has pled, the russians have been indicted, they'll never bring them in, the same reason they can't get the sheriff, this pass struck me. [laughter] but the agent they're talking about is the name of berryman, drugs, guns and violence were only half story, if crimes can be told once money is traced, while dea with dramatic strings, droves of drugs, berryman spent

time chasing dealer's money around the world adding additional charges and defended to indictments, they played games, forgot facts, succumb to temptations and documents never lied. and, you know, i really -- from what i can tell from the outside, all of this hard work that mueller is doing is going to be -- what's your view? >> yeah, i think that's right. you're giving me a very tempting segue. >> oh, yeah. >> i think that's right. in fact, there are people on mueller's team who had small hand in this investigation. one of the top guys in the team is greg andres, was the supervisor of the lead prosecutor in this case and trained him and a woman who worked below the lead prosecutor in the case, he supervised other

cases while running the case. she's really interesting prosecutor, profiled in the new yorker a couple of years ago, she's a pakistani american doing antiterrorism cases, some of you might have read the article. she's on the case as well and owl of these people were trained in the same tradition of that kind of, you know, police work, of sort of checking the boxes of the paperwork, following the numbers and showing it because it's so -- it's just so much more compelling than almost anything else when it comes to jury or sitting them down in the room and saying you can do it our way or the highway. those kind of prosecutors are used to getting most people to when confronted with this kind of evidence to roll over because it's so completely overwhelming, i mean, we are outside of the scope of our conversation but i find it astounding that manafort is willing to go to trial considering evidence, it seems like suicide but i guess there's a pardon waiting for him.

[laughter] >> giuliani representing. >> great. only a fool has giuliani for a client. something like that. [laughter] >> the segue was about the connections between mueller in general. the first is that mueller was a heavy fbi when this case opened and he after september 11th, created a new vision for the fbi which had to do with sort of forgetting about traditional crime and focusing on what he considered to be terrorism-related crime, counterterrorism and the money movement that is would support it. so this bleeds a lot of money out of traditional fbi squad and new york rusting russian and ukrainian mobs active in brooklyn in new york, there's no

appetite, they want new things for the team to do. they are being bled of agents so the guy who is in charge of it starts trying to figure out a way at bite of the apple, if i can do russians organized crime then bob mueller is going to like it. so he starts traveling around, talking to people about cases he can find, he's chasing a case that centers in trump tower, illegal poker room and and illegal online sports book, a piece of that case was in movie theaters in molly's game, molly bloom was a piece of that. really nasty stuff but some russian cameos in the movie. head of the whole thing like a russian, he's trying to build

the case and also looking for different cases and he's introduced to a guy who becomes really famous years later, that guy is called christopher steele, raise your hand if you heard of christopher steele? he wasn't famous then, he retired, he meet it is fbi agent, tells him what he can about this russian mafia and they sort of leave, if you find anything else, you have my phone number, here is my card. christopher steele already had a client at the time that was in the world of soccer, they didn't talk about soccer in the first meeting, it didn't come but the client was english, english bid to win 2018 world cup. english doesn't have the world cup in 2018. he had been hired by english bid, huge deal for them. they held 66 world cup,

birthplace of soccer, they want to have the world cup again and they want to cover all of their basis, they hire a bunch of basically exspooks to gather information to them about competitors, about the voters in fifa, anything they could get, they had steele because he knows about russia and he's gather information and he starts getting ominous things from sources about what russia is up to. russia doesn't seem to be playing fair in attempt to win world cup, he's hearing rumors about potential bribes an people getting involved and the fact that putin who is famously not a soccer fan, hockey fan, not interested, suddenly is obsessed with soccer and calls fbi agent up again and he says, you should come back to london, i want to tell you about something else. they sit down in july of 2010 and have a conversation about what russia is doing, about how the voting works, about why russia might be trying to play

funny games and there might be transnational crime involved and the fbi agent had never really heard of fifa, he's one of the guys who said what's the fifa and he goes back to new york, excited about the idea of making this case and finds prosecutor and convinces to open case. and that's how that opened, that's essential first step in building relationship between the fbi and christopher steele that ends up playing a much sort of more important role down the road in all of our lives, right, because christopher steele as we know developed dossier about russia christopher steele we wanted to give to fbi and had track record and had relationship with him, he was proven person vetted and called the same fbi agent who at that point was no longer in new york, was in rome working in the embassy in rome and says you

should come to london again and gives them to dossier. it's a safe bet that the fbi wouldn't have taken the document seriously if they could make it viable and credible thing and so that's one of the parallels, jim comey was the fbi director by the time case breaks into open and comey standing and towering over loretta lynch who is quite small and he's 6'8 and characters that we think of that are trump's are also in if i --, before i get a word edge wise -- >> you're the author. >> one of the things that i have been thinking about is the timing of this. this russia has world cup that we now see in russia and i should back and say that england was super qualified to get it,

england was the perfect place for world cup -- >> qatar. [laughter] >> that's a whole other ball of wax but russia didn't have the stadium, moneys, freeways. there was not a lot of information. they win in 2010. this is the period when obama was president and we were in the russia reset and russia and u.s. were buddies and obama was hugging putin and they were making deals at the same time that christopher steele is finding out of the stuff that's happening, russia is agree to go sanctions against iran. the u.s. is thanking russia profusely and taking russia off of its own sanction's list and wonderful fuzzy time. it's easy to forget that because we think russia in pretty stark terms right now but this was a

warm and cuddly russia as far as we knew in 2010 and what we see now is the first sign of what the russia we are dealing with. this is the first encouragement of russia into international affairs in the way that's kind, we will get what we want no matter what. russia wants the world cup because it's the most biggest sporting event in the world. they want eyeballs on them. two reasons why putin was prime minister at the time, he had been president, planning on being reelected so internally he could speak to russian voters, look how great i am and win election. in 2012, last election in march, he got 75% plus percent of the vote, but the second thing to get the world cup now so that he could have world eyes upon him and project, he had proven domestically he was the big

strong man and we wanted to show the world. that was mismotivation in what we are seeing in 2010 in hindsight, russia that would do secretive things to get what it wanted and no one was really noticing it, i guess, except maybe the fbi agents. >> a central figure in this whole thing and it was the one that berryman was able to verify when he saw the initial tax issue, a gentleman by the name of chuck blazer, some of us know him, i wish you would give a terrific description of him physically, psychologically, every which way. >> alan, i've talked to chuck a couple of times. chuck is no longer with us, chuck died last summer, alan knew him far better, but he's certainly about larger than life figuratively and literally as you could possibly imagine figure, chuck blazer, in later

part of his life was about 450 pounds. fairly tall6'2. pretty big guy and had type two diabetes and other kinds of health problems and couldn't walk well so he would ride around central park in mobility scooter with a parrot parachute on the shoulder, beard and tangled hair and looked like santa claus basically and long way, he went to same high school as ramons and simon garfunkel. he was in late 30's when the kids were playing youth soccer.

and the way i like to tell it is if any of you have kids who play soccer, there's always some dad who is saying if i ran this league, if i were the president of soccer i would do this, if i were in charge i would do this and nobody pays attention to them. but chuck blazer said that and then became the guy running soccer. he rose up from sort of cutting orange slices and handing out capri suns in the sidelines to being one of the most powerful men in world soccer. he was the head of one of the regional associations, confederations that alan was talking about. number two with the regional confederation and did enormous power in the sport and i think did a lot of good for the sport, a lot of things that he helped with, he helped mls get first significant television contract and he before he was u.s. soccer federation and creating women's

national team, he was a support of women's soccer, his daughter played soccer and that helped him understand how important the game was and people knew him well, talked about great story teller, life of the party who was famous for hanging out in classic new york literary night spot where mohamed ali and that's the kind of guy he was. he was a really big personality. what we began towards the end of his life he also had a pension for sort of putting things in his pocket that didn't belong to him. [laughter] >> which is a common soccer thing, famous clip of a guy, one of the guy convicted at trial last december, brazilian, he was handing out medalists to soccer team and he was putting them on their necks like that and then one kid he skipped him and video

tape of him literally putting the medal in his pocket. so he's in brooklyn detention center waiting for his sentence. he was convicted on 5 or 6 counts, i think he's looking at maximum of 80 year's old, he's probably going to die in prison. so chuck was -- chuck's thing was working out deals that worked for him. he didn't invent although he claimed he invented but didn't really invicinity smiley button that was big in the early 70's. a couple of guys from philadelphia probably invented that. who knows where it came from. chuck blazer's wife worked for button company and he saw in soccer an opportunity to rose

and also for himself and one of the famous things he does is when he gets job which is regional confederation is he gets the opportunity to write unemployment contract, who wouldn't want that, we will leave you running in the room and you will write your own contract and he did, what he said is, i won't take a salary, i will just set up this company and the company, i will be employee, the company contracted to the association and it will get 10% of all revenues. every 10% of every single dollar that goes into the door, it will go to my company. .. ..

like a condominium in miami it's a long list. he built of the custom film studio inside his offices trump tower. where was his high school reunion hosted things to donald trump. it was in the lobby of the trump tower. he built a $3 million film studio using a grant from before. that did not stop him from chemo -- creaming $300,000. anyway. one of the reasons as he did not file taxes. they were revoked with the 3c

status. and he did not do that for at least 17 years. and maybe longer. i found court filings from a civil suit. they have some tax issues. maybe the leper doesn't change its spots. he wanted to prove it was the assets. he left to gang -- gamble and date trade.

they have income from gambling or spending money. this is the behavior overdue. stephen berryman has us magic power. it's a look at tax returns. the agents can do that. they are not allowed to just pull tax returns from somebody. it makes it basically impossible. they don't do it. he pulls it up and sees this. the sky has never paid taxes which is not that common. as wanting to hide income another thing to never file. through a complicated study. a guy in the caribbean named jack warner.

they are best friends and up at odds with each other. they start leaking documents to the press. it ends up on the website of this investigative journalist. they see it they look at it and notice with the computer screw that have been photocopied and scanned. if they have that cancellation mark. he usually sent all of the checks and everything to the caribbean where he have all of the secret accounts.

the first caribbean national bank in the cayman islands. he could do without making a lot of noise. they are seeing that income. they confront him in the trump tower and they sit down with him. there is stories about this. he was handcuffed and pushed against the wall. they called him up on the phone and he said we like to meet with you. he thought it was about something else. they sit down and they introduce them to another story. they already knew him. i will want you to know i love football. i also want you to know that you haven't paid taxes in 17 years.

here is a subpoena. it's a very specific one. you can go ask your lawyer if you like. and the account number. and every bank account you head in the whole world. alternatives are really not so good for you. some people this is trying to get someone to flip. it's really hard enough to really work them hard. sometimes you have to handcuff them. sometimes you have to do things like in the case of manafort. they took up maybe 17 seconds to decide to flip and within a couple of weeks he was sitting down with prosecutors telling him the life story. and explaining to these guys what they didn't understand about soccer which was a heck of a lot.

because he had been in the thick of it for decades he knew it all. you mentioned this. i like don't like to think of them as whistleblowing. you feel average. saving your doesn't feel like moral outrage. he decided to wear a wire because they said you better wear a wire. he better make the consensual recordings. it only comes from one side of that phone call by the way. the other person doesn't know any did that because you better do that. and he recorded other people that he got to flip. the guy he have have dinner with was chuck blaser. the other ones did.

it was the next sort of major piece in the case. unlike blaser who was a broad taker it was a guide that made it countless millions. and was at the middle of the web. and when they got him he was a much less helpful cooperator by the way. he sort have brought them a whole new continent. still a sort of bleeding on a tray. for everybody's background most of the bribery and payoff related to to tv and marketing rates in the americas and so for example if 71 to get the south american tv rights which

were hugely valuable it would go to the path. get the money and in turn then acquire the rights and the legal theory that the u.s. attorneys used that money if that was a bag of the entire package that money should have gone to the soccer federation in total not just the part that they got. and about the only ones with a specific scandal that's why i was having dinner with chuck blaser. i was representing the government of morocco when they were trying to acquire world cup rights for 2010 which have been designated to be in africa.

it ended up going to south africa. and what happened is when i went to bed the night before at that we that we were going to win. i woke up the next eight there day there was a vote and we lost. we knew exactly who flipped. it was jet warner and one of his cohorts. and that's what it was. i assumed that there was a payoff path i have no idea but apparently they were thinking when they ask him. morocco we thought we have the votes in advance. we must have paid him and in south africa came in and paid him more. that's how we lost it. fortunately i have no idea whether morocco paid them.

the south africa bride. they negotiated a 10 million-dollar bride -- mcbride to change the votes. rather than morocco in the case. he admitted to it. it was a small chunk of the money that was part of the bride from that. so many installments and led to problems. the point is that was a kind of high-level corruption that we think of when i think about that corruption. it's a very strong hint that there's more where that comes from. that is the most without any examples. not really representative of the majority of what they found. this other side that people didn't see. that's where blaser was incredibly important. they asked me about

sponsorship and television bribery. most of the money is not the very highest level. all of the tournaments everywhere. it turns out a lot of them have some real questionable things. in 92 and 93 people went to meet with phil knight of nike and tried to get him to sponsor the u.s. national team. i think also the story of someone else. but than the world cup happened a huge success. in brazil wins the world cup in the rose bowl. and is 100 something thousand people there. i think he might have even invented that.

they are not going to sponsor japan, they are going to sponsor the number one team in the world. they came out years later in the fee for case even though it's really markup located in that that the huge contract they signed with brazil included kickbacks. if you asked them we didn't know about it. and maybe that so. but the fact of the matter is that $2 million a year from that deal was being kicked back to that guy and put in his pocket. that's representative of a lot of these deals. a lot of them would include bigger and bigger bribes. it was here in the u.s. a couple years ago. and the guy who have taken over the north american

confederation was demanding 15 million and they negotiated down to a $10 million bribe for that one tournament. as a kind of money you are thinking about. it's money that could've gone to the federation. if you think about the economics of why someone bribing allen $10 million to give me the rights to something. i want alan to not only give me the contract. i promise not to talk to anybody else about it. and when it expires in four years or however long to give me the first rate of negotiation. you have to take much more of in econ 101 to have that. it's easy to imagine that the actual market price. it might have been worth $200 million. it was never put to market. dependency opportunity cost to it. it was was also taken from the game.

no extradition. in the frustrating thing i'm sure for a lot of these prosecution team. is the huge number of the really core defendants that they have hidden behind extradition or lack of and again the 13 russian defendants. they will probably never be brought to justice in the united states. this all breaks through the open. it is going down in history like one of the most significant days and soccer history. two days before election history. this incredibly luxurious hotel. unlike your fancy american hotels. your soaring lobbies. it's a very small lobby.

they go up and they knock on a bunch of doors at six in the morning. and they say we are here to arrest you. thank you very much. and they drag him out of there. one of the guys there busted with the metal pocket are. they busted him and his wife was in their room. completely terrified and doesn't know what's happening. he's gone. he's packing his bag to go. any cause of this other guy. he have just taken over on the configuration confederation of the other would prove my

husband is in horrible trouble. so he says that's terrible. that's awful. i'm in a come right now and help you out. and we will figure this out. he hangs up the phone and he goes up for any packs the suitcase. on the missteps of the doj was not indicting him in the first round. he will never leave. they have to fly in someone from brazil to vote two days later because he was a boating and delegate. and he will never leave because he knows he is safe there. he is living in brazil.

it's against him also. he was almost at the convicted one. all of the evidence is against the guy that was convicted. it's just like one thing after another. he is making the press statements. at the end he sort of stopped making comments because it was just all laid out in that room. the investigation broke after the u.s. had lost its bid to host the 2020 world cup. there was a lot of discussion then that i was just it was just a revenge move by the united states what was the take on that. i've heard that theory a number of times. the most prominently he has a

per pretrade as the ultimate bond villain. the scheming international man. but nothing for world domination. he's like your terming uncle that you can't quite get a read on. i had interviewed him twice. another place with nothing in it. and the feeling of swiss wealth all over the place. sour grapes because they did not get the 2022 world cup. and then obama went home after he did that. bill clinton was the chairman of the u.s. bid. honorary chairman or something like that. he must had called up obama. and that's what it's all about. it's totally not true at all. the investigation was already open and running five months

earlier by that time. it was already an open investigation and it doesn't make sense anyway. if it was ordered from the top. this is running and the eastern district. he's not even the most important district in new york city for crying out loud. it's totally not the case. and people don't want to believe it but in fact elsewhere these guys were even thinking about them. it's a moment where the case agent reports to the other guy. on december 3, 2010. he has the new york times sports section. to give you a sense of how an important the news was. they didn't even put it on the front of the sports section. it was inside unlike page five

of the sports section and he opened it up and said i think the reaction was something like that's great but what does that had to do with our investigation. amazing in my travels. justifying this. it's a lot of outrage. how can they go and indict people from other countries. they don't have those laws in most parts of the world. in most other countries in the world. they barely set foot in the united states. some of them never. they translate money through the fed system. that is enough to get

jurisdiction. a pick it up. the swiss law when this was taking place did not make commercial bribery a crime. at one point you could actually that cost as a deduction on the tax return. and then they will call us hypocrites. if we want to come to the united states and we have a perfectly lawful business. we have to hire this lawyer and he will tell you this is a lobbyist that you should hire. and then you support this elected official and you'll

get the your deal. some of the anger and perplexity is because they really do not understand our laws and the way that we do business. in the foreign cooperators. it took a lot of explaining. before they could kind of confess to their crimes. they used the wire statutes. there is a theory right now.

they are on a fiduciary level and also to the ethics code. you are defrauding those things. that's basically reading business. we were releasing again about released about it. this is where you do business. the incredible length to hide the money they were getting. they were all these overseas accounts. they would take in cash. one guy also got convicted who would send his bribes in between us airways. he would send his personal driver 15 hour drive each way he would go down spend the night and love the trucking right back.

that doesn't smell like a legitimate way to take a commission for your services. has anybody come up with a close estimate of how much russia paid in bribes to get the world cup that's going on right now. >> there is there is a fun story about that. there was a lot of question about them winning the world cup. they hired a former u.s. attorney in the name of michael garcia. it was a funny naming convention. as a highest level the highest level of a state judge. he was hired. to do it at a great expense.

what i find to be amusing. he could not set for in russia to connect the investigation. because he was on a man list. it's complicated but involves the magna ski act. they are swiss prosecutor. maybe they don't had as much when they come to this kind of thing. give us your books. show us what they are. so i can find out whether it's clean. we have all of these computers and we kept track of all the stuff. they were borrowed computers. and when it was over and we won we gave it back to the person who loaned them to us. the prosecutor said great, unfortunately they destroyed all of the computers. there is no computers left. there is no records at all of

what happened. no harm no foul. one of the consequences is that it was then banned from anything in soccer. but you might put the tv set on today and see who he has as his personal best. it's really a classic. he gets his world cup probably there. and then has his world cup. in that position because of that criminal investigation. then a week later he is sitting in a different booth.

with him. who is that disgraced former guy. who they said. it is a power move there. i was just can ask your opinion on that. [indiscernible] it was the salt lake city olympics which is in the launch of the career.

the reason he got that job was because they were bribing everyone in sight to salt lake city. on that was in the late 1990s. the prosecutors in the southern district of new york about the case. and goes down in history as one of the most disastrous prosecutions and modern history. the case fell apart so badly they got no conviction. if you look at the indictments in the case they were giving you guys money left and right. in order for them to vote for the u.s. i think soccer to answer your question lends itself to it because it's based in switzerland and because they don't have a lot of oversight. it's so beloved. and so popular throughout the world that no one likes to touch it.

i think also the olympics there's only one thing to bribe and that's can we host the elliptic's. an obvious leader's big dollars there. but beneath that the tv rights or marketing rights your local gymnastics team or archery team. has a value. but soccer is just the passion and basically every country in the world and so there is money and all of these levels below the fee for level. obviously the big prize is to host it. the brazilian national team. i don't think that the brazilian gymnastic team would get a big tv right. it's just so different.

everyone wants to watch olympic championships. they are there every tournament. all these things are of these things are incredibly important and valuable. before i was going around and trying to get interest in the world cup. in the '90s. i would tell people that there are 209 members of fee for. in 209 members of the united nations. if you gave them the choice to belong to only one. probably about five or six would say to the heck with the un. that's it they live and die for. billions of people of this month are watching games had five in the morning. your people does anyone else

have a question? [indiscernible] they make them susceptible to bribery. they have a vote on their location of the world cup. do you think that will stem the tide from bribery for their vote. he used to just be a small pool of people. >> after this disastrous vote. now the entire congress gets it instead of the secret ballot which it was. that's how we learn that brazil could of done it. they could've voted for morocco recently.

and then in the face of it. that seems better. some of the liking says it will have more people to bribe. it's lower cost. i don't know. it probably doesn't cost that much. i think well had to see overtime. they are making it must harder to host. the one in the u.s. canada and mexico it makes it geometric. realistically expected to put off. that might be one my. that's a very optimistic way to look at it. to get more and more teams. we will see. i think it's a little early to tell. there is a history. one of the ways the bladder

and the predecessor was the sheriff's father-in-law. i was all power from their standpoint. you needed a majority of all the people in congress. one of the things they do is pay money to all of the federations for various programs and the first congress i ever went to literally they have electronic voting. as they walked it was handed and it they are standing right there. they would fit for the conversation. it is is a deep seated problem. now that they busted all of these guises can be fine.

one president and his successor. and they are all crooks. there is a lot of suggestions that that's not enough. the metaphor i've been using lately is the cancer that has affected the organization. if the cutout the cancerous tissue in the tumor. it was more than that. they need a lot more treatment before you really have a clean bill of health. >> that's good have to be in the directors cut of this book. because it was too long. apparently they don't want to read a 700 page books on fee for.

it was the most famous one of all-time. he have a big test and ultimately because of the power he got him pushed out of the sport and made for some non- granta for a while. i think he was supposed to do that with a 94 world cup. they yanked his name at the last minute. they were supposed to actually go along the stage. that's when they were baited. honestly that's incredible. several books written in portuguese. i speak spanish not portuguese.

they are really good. and they tell great detail of how they lived in florida for a while. they died in the highway accident in miami. and that might have led to his falling out with his father-in-law. that was not his father-in-law's daughter. >> it is a great book whether you like soccer or not. and how it gets detected in prosecutors. think i thank god they have an airplane ride to new york. thank you everyone for coming [applause].

sunday night on afterwards cnn political commentator amanda carpenter discusses her book guest lighting america where we love it wouldn't trump would trump lies to us. and then suspense. all the time. i had investigators going to hawaii. there is a report coming soon. that generates more media interest. but see what he has to say. and then he selects a distractor. they think donald trump is line. other people are just talking about this. i'm just looking into it. anybody that pops up if you can find a target to start

scapegoating. that's when it really creates that dynamic. and then finally he declares victory. like he did with the press conference. i'm in have a major announcement. you can also look for my beautiful brand-new hotel if you want. i cleared it up in the winter. but hillary clinton started it. victory. watch afterwards. they recently visited capitol hill to ask members of congress what they're reading this summer. i just finished reading this incredible book. it is a perfect day to talk

about for world refugee day. i'm now reading his second book hit the refugees. it is remarkable books that capture the complexity of a refugees life but also refugees the end up in the united states as well as ones that go back. those are the two books that are front and center for meat right now. book tv wants to know what you're reading. good evening everybody welcome to politics and prose.