this hearing is just under two hours. >> good morning. i call this hearing to order. we will consider the endangered species act amendment of 2018. i would like this to serve as a foundation for a bipartisan effort to modernize the endangered species act. if we work together republican and democrat we can ensure that this important law fulfills the conservation potential and works better for species as well as people. congress last reauthorized the act amendments of substance in 1988, three years ago. even more recently than the endangered species act

stakeholders are making it clear that it can be improved. a major goal of the act is the recovery to the point that protection under the statute is no longer necessary. since signed into law, only 54 rout of the 2,393 species listed in the u.s. and foreign countries have been delisted because they've recovered. that's less than 3%. as a doctor if i made 100 patients to the hospital and only three recovered enough under my treatment to be discharged, i would deserve to lose my medical license with numbers like that. when it comes to the act, the status quo is not good enough we must do more than just list and left them on life support. we need to see them recovered. in june of 2015 as the then chairman of the governors association, the wyoming

governor took on the challenge of identifying opportunities to modernize the endangered species act. the association represents governors of 19 western states and three territories in the pacific. he launched the conservation and endangered species act initiative. three years later, the groundbreaking initiative has facilitated a bipartisan dialogue of stakeholders from across the political spectrum. they resulted in three annual reports, the adoption of a bipartisan governor's policy resolution and the adoption of bipartisan western policy recommendations. this month i released a discussion draft of the endangered species act amendment of 2018 that is based on the western principles and policies. earlier i received a supportive letter signed by the chair and vice chair republican governor of south dakota and democratic

governor of hawaii. he commended our efforts to address this polarizing topic in an inclusive and thoughtful manner and noted the bill reflects this fact and offers meaningful bipartisan solutions to challenging the species conservation issues. the bill is generally consistent with the western governor recommendations in the western governors association offers its support for the portions of the bill consistent with the governor's policy. the discussion draft was also shaped by input from committee hearings last year. we heard from a diverse group of witnesses and panelists including the wyoming governor and fish and wildlife director from across the country.

it was a goo is a good startingr modernizing the act. the discussion draft all of it's the role of states in partnering with the federal government to implement the endangered species act and affords states the opportunity to lead wildlife conservation efforts including through the establishment of the teams for the listed species and developing and recovering plans. it provides increased regulatory certainty so the stakeholders were incentivized to enter into voluntary conservation recovery activities. it increases transparency and codifies the system for prioritizing species listing petitions for the resources flow to those most in need. over the 45 year life of the species back to the capacity of the state wildlife agencies has grown significantly. according to the agencies, states now spend over

$5.6 billion on conservation and employed approximately 240,000 volunteers. of that number, 50,000 are employeeemployees including 11,0 wildlife biologists. over 10,000 law enforcement officers and 6,000 employees with advanced education degrees. combine, thcombined, the u.s. fd wildlife service and the national marine fisheries service and played only 11,661 people. so the substantial resources in the states are not located in washington, d.c.. these state agencies are in the field every day working to protect wildlife. the draft bill has received broad support from the conservation stakeholder groups alike. over 100 organizations have already pretended the committee to express their support on this effort to look forward to working with members of the committee and the larger community to find a bipartisan pathway to the meaningful

modernization of the act is on the western governors association recommendations and now turn to the ranking member carper for his statements. >> welcome and thank you for your leadership in wyoming and among the other nation. as a recovering governor i recognize the challenging role that speaks to implementing the federal law. the endangered species act one of the most popular protection statutes is one example of such a law. also pushing the ability to come together with stakeholders and solve these issues on the ground and governor, i understand from the colleagues bipartisan three-year process to the governors nation to discuss the improvements to the endangered species act and i commend you for doing so.

i very much look forward to hearing from you and the other witnesses today on what we believe is important. but i've got to be honest as while i am not fully convinced that a similar process is possible right now in washington, d.c.. our colleagues in this congress put forth a myriad of proposals to weaken and in some cases undermine the act into the current administration has repealed policies from previous administrations that would help endangered species to recover and i'm told that the department plans to release new regulations this week that could harm the species. the draft resolution includes provisions beyond the legislative recommendation is proposed by the western governors association last year and even the tax cut is based on the resolution recommendations

with problematic details. to my knowledge none of the democratidemocratic governors tt supported that can and produced this as it is currently written. the process seems to be skipping another important step and that is incorporating the views of the other 31 states. for example my home state of the mother has a compelling story to tell. the act has recovered those in the states recently including a bald eagle. they are proud to host those that fly all the way from the north pole to down to brazil and keeps on going. another would recover. people travel from all over the world to fund these special birds from our beaches and along the atlantic ocean and delaware

bay i've joined some a few months ago in the beloved wildlife refugees. first and was a wonderful working relationship with the fish and wildlife service and we are working with landowners and industry partners and organizations to successfully present new listings. let me just say that no law is perfect. in delaware's experience, changes to the act has not been a prerequisite for the law to work and i continue to believe that our state along with the service of all states could do more to prevent new listings with additional resources. all of the previous agreements t and funding is a serious challenge yet in recent years the underfunded the endangered species act and through that

legislation it doesn't provide a meaningful solution for the conservation at its sout edits e opposition proposes several changes for the real concerns. for one it creates a definition for help the wildlife service should consider scientific information and this change could present the best from driving the species management as well as the administration has consistently denies and undermines it also includes the judicial review prohibition that limits the public's opportunity to challenge the positions that may not be supported by the best available science or otherwise fully compliant with the law. having said all that i want to acknowledge the thoughtfulness that went into the western governors endangered specie endt initiatives and havininitiative, i'm having a hard time understanding how this legislation in particular will do to recover the species or servwereserved the american peo. and perhaps this hearing will

serve to further my understanding or perhaps it will cause us to go back to the drawing board and the expertise and insight of some of these other 31 states whose input apparently hasn't been sought when it was being crafted. we may come together as we have been several occasions tin seveo truly conserve the nation's treasury, wildlife and future generations. thank you very much, senator carper and today we would hear from two panels. there's an option either to ask if i've been around from either panel or a three-minute from each panel that we will follow the procedure to ensure that we complete the hearing by noon because we have a couple of roll call votes scheduled and we want to be able to cast those. we will hear from the governor of wyoming and on the second panel we will hear from the director of the colorado parks and wildlife and secretary of natural resources of the

commonwealth of virginia and would remind your full testimony will be made a part of the official record. i'd like to take a moment to introduce the wyoming governor who's been serving as governor since january of 2011. he's worked as a prosecutor and united states attorney. he also worked as the task force from 2015 to 2016 he served as the chairman where i mentioned before he led the conservation and endangered species act initiative. that initiative served as the inspiration of the discussion draft but we are examining today and they also have a operation

aand they hope they were told that their experience balancing the interest of citizens while it was simply conserving and effectively conserving wildlife. it is an honor to welcome you as a witness before the public works committee. thank you for traveling to be with us today. i know frontier days is coming to cheyenne and you will be busy over the next week and a half but i'm grateful that he will take the time to be with us today. please proceed. >> i hope you give me your nodes on that. it's an honor for me to be the governor of wyoming. >> to all of the members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to be with you this

morning and the opportunity to speak about the endangered species act amendments and the discussion draft. to start i want to share i witnessed some of the greatest success in 1987 on a rant should biologists removed from the last 18 black footed ferrets in the world. before that they were believed to have been extinct. today due to collaborative efforts that they've been reintroduced and each state with canada and mexico. another example when listed as threatened in 1975, biologists estimated as he was 136 remained in a few isolated areas and the yellowstone national park in a greater ecosystem. the listing on the conservative estimates show more than 700 have an area the size of new jersey, delaware, and connecticut combined and continue moving into the areas people haven't seen them in

generations. the stories are a testament to the ability to prevent extinction. they provided the perfect incentive for the folks that work together to keep this from being lifted. wyoming brought together groups to develop a scientifically based and common sense strategy for preserving. the plant served as a model for other states and federal agencies preventing the need to lift is a success story. i've also witnessed some of the greatest failings it took five lawsuits in 15 years to the list the population wyoming. grizzly bears are in the litigation for the second time and canadian listed more than 18 years ago and still have no discernible path to recove recor infected nearly 30infact nearlys have no recovery plan and litigation often takes the priority's and workload.

it's been amended, hasn't been substantially amended since 1988, so now it is time in my view to have this discussion and again i appreciate the opportunity as evidence that this is the time to have this discussion there are bills before congress to prevent listing greater droughts for ten years. before this they were proposing parts of the country to prevent the judicial review of the already be listed species. i supported legislation to the list in wyoming because it appeared at the time the only viable option, and i will continue to support efforts to protect this until we can address the root of the problems. but i have to frankly say that process of congress by popular vote making the decisions on the individual species is not the best way to go. addressing the problems would obviate the need to intervene with respect to individual

species there would be better legislation, better policy and better for wildlife. the discussion draft offers real bipartisan ways to correct deficiencies in the implementation while maintaining science-based decision making. as was said, this is my initiative as the western governors and i just want to give a little more context on that it was open to everybody. when we extended an open invitation for anybody interested in the conservation and issues to engage in meaningful dialogue for three years the initiative included work sessions, webinars, questionnaires and reports outlining opportunities for the improvement ensure transparency work session they were recorded and posted. this process helped inform the governors and in 2016 and again in 2017 the western governors adopted a bipartisan policy resolutions that included specific recommendations for

improving the species conservation. a number of recommendations were reflected in this. when congress adopted in 1973, it did not require th the fish d wildlife service to act on petitions by the date certain. .. >> fish and wildlife service t received petitions at a time

it does not have the resources to meet the deadlines. the resulting litigation not scientist to prioritize and frequently impede social species conservation efforts that could take years to develop and implement. after 36 years of the status quo this addresses this conflict in a scientifically based tactical way to codify the framework of fish and wildlife services workplan. this has been praised by environmental groups and conservation groups but despite the support it extends the current statutory deadline and this also believe the governors to contemplate to implement recovery plans and

consulting and with all aspects of the implementation. we believe this is an important start we believe people will have concerns and one of those concerns that i have that they and other supporters that recognize the important role the states play in wildlife management for example during its adoption to speak in favor arguing the greater bulk of the enforcement capabilities concerning endangered species lies in the hands of the state fish and game agencies not the federal government. the house committee on merchant marine reports the explains the important role the states play tuesday they

are far better equipped to handle the problems of day-to-day management and enforcement of laws and regulations for the endangered species of the federal government. numerous examples of the importance congress recognizes the states would play unfortunately much of congresses vision never materialized due to inadequate funding for state recovery efforts. to give back state incentives that congress originally envisioned this discussion draft takes a needed step to return the esa to the original vision to garner unanimous support from congressman past. in conclusion first i would note this discussion draft is not from the secretary of interior or commerce every time it role offers a greater role to state the secretary retains final decision-making

authority second does not remove the science from decision-making and these must be based on the best scientific data. this draft stems from the state led bipartisan effort conducted over several years and this sportsman's energy interest all have the process that i would also note that after we got the process from the governors association i don't want to overstate this book broadly and often many of the policies but the nga has also taken a look at this. this represents a reasonable way to elevate the process with the national dialogue. and to submit a letter of support with the provisions of the bill consistent with policy.

so now we have an opportunity to prove the endangered species act to encourage innovative practice with the need to list species and with a cost-effective species recovery and improve transparency and reduce litigation and ensure that science dictates management decisions not congress or courts for most of portly to use reauthorization for the first time in a generation thank you for the opportunity i appreciate the warm welcome this morning. >> thank you governor there are number of interns from my office that are here from wyoming and casper that were delighted to hear your testimony. people are listening and people from wyoming so they will say what a great job you did. couple of questions then we will go back and forth over the last several decades there

have been a series of efforts to amend the endangered species act they were not successful for a variety of reasons but can you distinguish between test efforts to amend the endangered species act and what the western governors association is doing does that reflect the policy principles and recommendations in a bipartisan way? >> i think there is those efforts and no question when i announced this would be my initiative to push back to say this is too tough of an issue that this is a tough time to get through congress but it is exciting enough that opportunity across the nation to address wildlife issues with an enthusiastic group of governors and citizens ready to move forward. 1998 we were moving on this from individual senators and

those were killed by senator lott 2005 the representative from california made improvements but it died in the senate this involved local input and was transparent including ranchers, groups like the nature conservancy and audubon. also nga involvement and we have learned a lot. we have over four years of knowledge so it is different because it has been bipartisan by republican and democrat governors and independents as well as in as we have seen congress takes up individual species if they remain listed or delisted it shows it is a time and there is good news out there mr. chairman. what we have done in wyoming with voluntary efforts go a long ways to present --

preventing a species from being delisted but i acknowledge we have addressed it with national governors and western governors this should be a bipartisan effort. >> explain why states should be a more equal partner to implement the endangered species act? >> with the commitment and the resources things really have changed. mr. chairman i have not seen that chart until this morning. that is very telling in terms of the expertise just on grizzly bears the state of wyoming spent approximately $50 million with the recovery of grizzly bears that is one state in one species no question from my knowledge from working as governor other states to put in resources but a great amount of expertise also i think it is important to point out states care about

endangered species. not only a quality-of-life issue but and economic driver in the state of wyoming for tourism it is important we have a trust responsibility with regard to wildlife. we care about our habitat and i would also point out to the extent there is concern that states are not the ones to leave this the expertise and the money over the 40 years states have become much more engaged and they are the leaders in terms of species conservation. >> it does seem to frequently to promulgate a rule to be derailed by litigation and we have seen that happen in wyoming. so what decision by the secretary of interior has not

been subject to judicial review. can you talk about this cooling off period and how to respond to those who claim judicial review could have an impact? >> that is an important point because on the one hand if you don't have that opportunity of the cooling off. you will lose moral support and voluntary efforts. people want to engage with the sage grouse whale and gas companies in the ranchers were excited to have a plan to go forward but they also needed to know there is fruit at the end than there is a reward. with the amount of lawsuits that are out there that hurts the opportunity to have a decent management plan. also in the working draft in the cooling off. whether a weather condition or

something else there is still an opportunity for the secretary to have an emergency listing. so you will not fall off the cliff as something unanticipated happens that the buildup of support with voluntary efforts and get away from the notion of enforcement is out there to find endangered species is a bad news story and you want to turn into good news you have to show voluntary efforts in a cooperative effort. and it's just not a race to the courthouse. >> thank you governor. senator? >> governor, thanks again for this conversation regarding the endangered species act. you said several times in your testimony that i think it is appropriate that my colleagues

believe part of the conversation from the western governors association endanger those recommendations from last year this is a quote. congress should allocate additional funding to implement the endangered species act to say they will work with congress to identify priorities to facilitate species conservation efforts to improve the efficacy of the endangered species act. that is one of the recommendations i would very much appreciate and i agree with the recommendation yet the draft legislation we are considering today as far as i know does not tackle funding challenges at the state or local level. this isn't a trick question but do you believe congress should address these issues?

we have spoken to them already in your recommendations but how if so? >> that's a good question but funding was part of our discussion. we were not equipped to say what that funding level looks like. but i would also add that i don't know these numbers but what funding would go to recover the species or partner with the state versus finding used for litigation? in just in the work that i have had in the seven or almost eight years sometimes get in these discussions with federal folks state and local that let's do this to avoid litigation. it shouldn't be litigation driven but how do you have an opportunity for the species so absolutely funding has to be a part of it. and reauthorization that would

be the first time in a generation but in my view. we need to make sure we are spending money in the right areas to recover and help the species versus just giving up to avoid the money litigation strategy versus a species strategy. >> your testimony mentions legislative proposals to prevent endangered species act listings for the sage grouse and the prayer he check in for the last 14 years your testimony knowledges the endangered species act and presumably the threat is part of those incentives for stakeholders in the federal government to work together successfully to conserve those species. the legislative proposal as far as i know does not include the prohibition for which i commend him but the language seems to be at every turn

rather than the annual appropriations process or consideration of the nda a what negative impacts do you think with the sage grouse listing prohibition could be on collaborative conservation efforts in wyoming or even more broadly? >> that as we try to articulate i don't think that's the way to go and i thank you have other things to do. and to have that ride on the popular vote don't think that's the best way to go. having said that i did support that and for those that were reluctant and can congress get it done? i mean that respectfully, it

should be a red flag when congress has to take that up over multiple interests of 20 years and multiple lawsuit. in the numbers have reach their goals and you still cannot get the species listed that is why those things happen is that the best way? no. but it has been born out of frustration for the endgame. we have done everything you have asked with habitat and species that we still cannot get delisted that is the frustration that causes that in my view it is time to engage to make improvements so we again are not coming to congress. >> thank you for your thoughtful response. >> thank you governor for being here and being a leader in this area we really do need people to step up and discuss

this. we do talk about delegating more authority to the states and a lot of times people have a knee-jerk reaction because you do -- delegate more authority to the states somehow you are weakening the law. i don't necessarily believe that is true. in this case i think it's a good idea the draft legislation does eliminate the role of the states but it also allows the secretaries of interior or commerce to overrule the state recommendations. do you believe, i think i have heard this but simply allowing states to make recommendations to alternately can be overruled by the federal government amounts to a week or endangered act? >> i think it makes us

stronger because the states are not asking for veto power the secretary still has that power when the states estimation of going the wrong direction he or she can say that's not the way were going to go. but by taking your question in the role of the states and i mean this respectfully to our partners of fish and wildlife service they don't have as many people or frankly the expertise in the state. that lays in the states i've heard people say this is one of the greatest conservation efforts ever and it was led at the local and state level started by my predecessor if the state had not done that we would not be where we are without the states collectively with the initiative on the federal

government fish and wildlife service could not do that so the increased role should not be viewed as usurping any authority but a collaborative partnership be more effective and still the secretary will retain that opportunity to say i don't think that's the right way to go. and that will not happen. >> and those that are familiar with and the ranking member mentioned we have that piping in iowa as well down to the missouri river. and i learned so much. >> piping over is to typing delaware. >> we have a greater territory

than delaware. [laughter] but i learned so much about that from the missouri river flood in 2011. just an example of the federal government doesn't necessarily work very well with the land owners on the ground. during that flood event he saw votes going up and down the missouri river and that perception was the federal government was more concerned about the sturgeon in the clover than the land owners and homeowners that were underwater for four months during the flood event. that perception correct or not is that federal government was not communicating with local landowners. moving forward we have other examples.

the water has receded getting their lives back to normal now we see the fish habitat in those breeding areas being put into place along the missouri river without input from the local stakeholders. the perception is the federal government cares more about the endangered species than those that reside in the area. and the land so there is a mistrust do you believe there is collaboration from the state and local government that would help get rid of that misperception? >> absolutely and beyond that with voluntary efforts for your private landowner you have to have the trust involved in that it just would

not be as effective it is the real opportunity and you mention sturgeon the one thing i have learned as we all become centered in our own world but it is an education but you are exactly right. and to bring up mother nature that states cannot be trusted but look at the polar bear that is listed because of climate change the state cannot do that. the long eared bat it is

because of a fungus. so to say states can be trusted that is out of the state's control or federal control as well it is critical for success. >> i agree wholeheartedly. >> thank you for your testimony with respect to the western governors association with your recommendations. do you know if the western governors association support your process with this draft bill? >> senator, i don't know the answer to that. i'm not disclosing private conversations but some democratic senators i

apologize governors, they believe in the work and the draft for what they fear frankly is that in this process it will not go forward as the governors envisioned and that's why the western governors have made clear we reserve the right to withdraw our help on this and then to support to have a piece of paper so until i do have an open invitation but we all recognize in a bipartisan way for those that are on the

books but you take the right approach. and then to draft this piece of legislation. there is a provision related that the governors and states give feedback for the performance of individual employees of fish and wildlife service. and then between the states and the federal government is it appropriate be told the federal government will wait in on the stage employees? >> no. i don't agree with that. but i think this process and they do support the working

draft that it is a good start to a process. i would not make the assumption that they do not support the working draft i would say that they would support provisions it's too get started and with the provision and then to have those honest disagreements. and by word we do that over those who are doing their jobs? have got death threats.

>> i appreciate the hard work you are doing and my experience with bipartisan support this issue is a huge issue i cochaired the endangered species act and my democratic cochair was the former attorney general of new mexico we saw a lot of common ground how to best work the recovery of listed species to employ the best science to give the states the more prominent role. i know senator ernst talked about it but in terms of expertise in the state of alaska we have thousands that are the top experts in the field or in the world.

endangered species. so the role of the states from your perspective should be high and why shouldn't include a veto on decisions? if a state, know there are issues of cross boundaries where the species moves across the boundary what if it is the size of the continent with no cross boundary issue like my state? >> you have never met a governor that would like authority in all states but as a working draft we need to make sure the secretary has that authority and i appreciate the magnitude of alaska and those challenges but many times they are cross

state. >> where i see that as an issue cross state i get that one state should not have the veto but i know my state is so big and has so many species we care about them way more than the feds do. and keeping them healthy and sustainable. but can you see an example if there is a cross boundary challenge like in the lower 48 the states could have more authority in particular if the state has more knowledge than the feds? >> senator i appreciate what you are saying. i guess what i would tell you in context this came from the western governors i wanted more others wanted less if you start to carve out by the state of alaska, hawaii,

territories, my goal is to get us moving forward and i just worry about that in the process but i do appreciate what you are saying. >> i appreciate your bipartisan and hard work. another issue relating to expertise beyond the federal government. this is in the draft bill so it should have bipartisan support with the issue of traditional knowledge. in my state that typically means alaskan native communities have been harvesting and watching the species for literally thousands and thousands of years we be the example of the whale where western scientists had a number that was very, very different from the whaling captain in the communities on the north slope and it ended up the whaling captains were right on the

numbers way more than the western scientists so i'm glad to see traditional knowledge highlighted. do you care to speak on that topic? it is important without a lot of recognition but a lot of people know a lot about species who don't necessarily have a phd in biology from an american university. >> it is important the draft bill says it is scientific with the best data available not familiar with that example that you gave but it does ring true that as we were working on the gray wolf ranchers that i have three in my back pasture and experts show there is none in this part of the states. so i think more information you can have is certainly helpful.

>> i know my time is expiring but if i can ask one final question, there has been an issue with federal agencies you have abused the statutory authority by having examples of listings that stretch the definition of the foreseeable future to make decisions. so the bearded seal was listed as threatened based on projections in 100 years in the future. nobody knows what will happen 100 years in the future but yet we have more federal agencies making claims we will list a species because 100 years from now we believe it will be threatened mostly that relates to climate change and that is happening in alaska. no doubt about that. but to say therefore we will list a species that is healthy now but we think it will be unhealthy and 100 years i

think that is an abuse of authority and we are hopeful this legislation can reign in that decision-making that has no statutory basis. it happens in my state all the time can you comment on that? >> thank you we struggled with that as western governors for the very reason that you said. not only the foreseeable future to the issue of climate change and you see climate change and alaska you add foreseeable future and then you list a species what do you do what work can be done what federal work can be done? you've got to have an opportunity to say i'm concerned so here are the steps you can take weather climate change or fungus if you just a is listed based on

a 100 year foreseeable future than how do you motivate a local rancher or fisherman or a concerned environmentalist to have a voluntary effort to do something? we do have to be careful that is what the western governors and staff have to be careful with that term foreseeable future. there is a lot of bipartisan discussion on that we haven't come to a resolution but that is what was discussed. >> we will enter into the record the letter from the western governors association in support of going title by title of the bill which is support signed by the governor of hawaii in the western governors association. there has been a submission by the democrats.

that question was asked earlier and additionally i have a number of letters from over 100 stakeholders writing support of the draft amendments of 2018 with the bipartisan process representing interest in every state including state wildlife agencies conservation groups energy for street agriculture livestock and more. unanimous consent to submit these as well. >> senator cardin i thank you for convening this hearing and for your efforts we do appreciate the fact we have this discussion bringing democrats and republicans together in a bipartisan manner the endangered species act is an extremely important policy and has achieved a great deal to restore the species. every time one is delisted it is a major accomplishment we

had the fox squirrel that was delisted that was an incredible accomplishment in our community and is a success of the endangered species act in a point that out because one of the objectives is to have action plans to preserve species and make them healthier to be delisted and in many cases the challenges are financial so one of the issues is to make sure we have adequate funding so the endangered species act can work. also thank you for your attention to the realities of climate change as it relates to endangered species. it is controversial to mention those words so i appreciate you saying that directly to support adaptation there is things that you can't do as a result with a species because of the exterior factors that

are changing we want to change those you don't have that ability to make that immediate impact you have to adapt to the current status i appreciate the manner that you dealt with that. one area that has brought concern is the modifications of judicial review. governors like to have a lot of power and the legislators and the checks and balances it makes for a much more open process. with the judicial branch with that process those that are committed to working with the endangered species act those

modifications of judicial review that would urge us to step back and recognize it is in all our interest to make sure we have checks and balances in our system. it is possible state officials and it gives us the opportunity for balance we welcome your thoughts. >> if nothing else it keeps you open-minded. with judicial review with the checks and balances it is important and in this context in my opening comment with the

multiple lawsuits long after the population numbers have been reached to have the voluntary efforts. it was the audubon society that if you do right and take care of the species that in fact it can be delisted. and with that chairman's comment we need to see that it works with a working draft the secretary has the authority and i would never suggest the courts not being part of the process but i am suggesting individual species addressed by congress is out of frustration there is no and

insight. >> i would underscore that the statute is ambiguous to give the court's discretion. the great wolf is an example it isn't appropriate dealing with those circumstances so i point out and can be done in a timely way for the open and transparent process those administrative areas moving forward. >> governor i want to touch it with the fish and wildlife

service director with opportunities for bipartisan reforms and hasn't been amended since 1988 significantly but with the issue of multiple listings have certain groups to have a listing where a file does exist in one petition then that gums up the entire process. it even under president obama to say that's not helpful we should perform that with a narrow process. so something that was very bipartisan did the governors get to that issue?

>> what we did in the discussion we have had that conversation at times i just want to_what you said but with multiple listings is the issue of how species is listed in multiple species are thrown out there. who suffers from that? it's not the people it's a species that is why this is helped us we are spending time and money to make sure the attorneys are employed but losing money and resources for the species. but the western governors

let's be smart how we are spending our money and time not a system open to abuse that causes that. >> great point. those conservation organizations have voiced their enthusiasm to work with this committee to modernize the endangered species act this western agriculture coalition include the environmental defense fund. and the nature conservancy. national audubon society in california farm bureau. and the conservation has its willingness. and to believe that status quo is good enough for the dangers species act i ask it in a miss consent to submit for the recor record.

>> i don't object. but i do ask him his consent to the new effort. the environmental control integrity. >> with any objection there is none. we appreciate you being here to listen to the next discussion on the next panel a number of interns are listening you can visit with them without forward to the with you this weekend. >> thank you for your leadership.

and with a good start and your bipartisan work. thank you for your times it is appreciated. >> the notion that the senator? they are trying to get here to ask a couple questions but it seems he will be delayed. >> and the next panel invited to the table from colorado parks and wildlife and the secretary of natural resources for the commonwealth we hope you enjoyed and benefited the

asked to limit your testimony to five minutes if there is time for questions from the committee so welcome to the committee and please procee proceed. >> thank you for the opportunity to represent the governor of colorado cannot be here i am here in dead to discuss our experiences as the director of management of the endangered species conservation the governor heck and looper does not have a position on this draft but remains very supportive of the western governor process to continue this dialogue with congress for a bipartisan practical solution with the implementation of the endangered species act.

in those nongovernmental organizations on many issues associated with endangered species act. as congress laid out the passage. there are frustrations for what is broken and why. with those lawsuits to be litigated and discussed on both sides of the issues. to maintain 960 species through our borders 210 follow ten follow under some level of special concern. and with the state funding per

year on those special status species over the last ten years to spent in excess of $100 million of the sage grouse. the expenditures not only to conserve the threatened species that we look at them as investments for that listing. in those revenue sources and conservation programs also don't provide credit -- provide critical support and then to be considered in the house right now and then to alleviate that financial shortfall with that much-needed funding for the species at risk all over the country.

but then to look at state involvement not all states and that political wherewithal. we believe it is important to allow each state the opportunity with every word desired level of engagement. this is consistent with what congress intended 45 years ago when the endangered species act was passed. it isn't shifting loss from state and federal jurisdiction or veto power but to administer the authorities in that process. these authorities such as water rights and private property right is a factor

that influence state and local economies. i keep my comments very short thank you for sharing your comments. >> thank you for inviting me to testify on this important topic. i know the secretary for natural resources. and then to protect native wildlife and plants including those that are threatened as endangered species from the flying squirrel to the atlantic sturgeon that can weigh as much as 800 pounds. and strong collaborative working relationships with the

endangered species act. at least two accomplishments of those species. where the college for you and mary. and the key to legal recovery. fish and wildlife service and the nature conservancy to protect that woodpecker habitat now the population expanding and that restoration with fish and wildlife service to bring freshwater mussels back from the brink of this tension at the rivers when the most biologically diverse areas on the american continent. and that is an opportunity not a hurdle.

when they are clean enough and to help support the economy it is more used by hikers and paddlers by the like and more desirable places to work and play and raise a family and start businesses. i agree with the chairman's assessment to do more than keep them on life support but i also agreed in dangers species act can be threatened and be initiated by the western governors association. and to make the most of the agencies with that species recovery process that we cannot support the legislation the current form. i am concerned even though

well intentioned to open the door to provisions sows with the western governors association the primary reason they are where they are is because of her states including virginia have not had the resources or political will to do the jobs themselves that is why the endangered species act was so important that operate that biodiversity from local and political pressures. in a practical matter i think it will make it more difficult these resources do not belong just to virginia or wyoming or any single state but all americans. we have multiple opportunities. and then that implementation

in the national fisheries service is reviewing the service as the best available it is argued the best way to improve to have more species faster to have adequate funding for management and they should be held accountable with as written has a 99% success rate and that 90% are on track to meet their goals on schedule so to use that analogy in the emergency room any doctor with 99% success rate keeping patients alive is pretty impressive. in those state wildlife agencie agencies.

>> thank you for your testimony. the challenges surrounding the implementation not just the western governors association with a seven-year work plan i 2023 and many of those species in the south and the midwest in terms of the get virginia north carolina florida is 68 species so 42 florida and dozens more are considered and should of the states and to

prevent those listings and to have a greater role with the species. thank you for that question. i agree on all of those points. and and with the state wildlife agencies we have a very strong scientific research program with those connections that we have with government like the state lines. and to be engaged in colorado with that limited amount of

funding we have available to make decisions where to put that funding to have the biggest impact prioritized. so with that listing and delisting and down the steaming process with the best available science states are the only ones that have that in conjunction with the universities that affords the opportunity to discuss this. >> so when the president and ceo of the defenders of u.s. fish and wildlife service says certainly absolutely. and then to say why is that important? >> i think they are concerned

first of all about threatened and endangered species but the protections of the act states like mine are funded from the nonfederal fines but in the broader sense as the highest level with those working landscapes it is about water supply and all of those things that we are concerned about. had afforded us with those listings and recovery. >> i left my questions later.

>> i am grateful to be here. but the endangered species act is incredibly successful by any measure but in god we trust the data is compelling 99% of wildlife has been saved from extinction. 99% we have a great track record. while this is covering from the brink of extinction the majority of the species listed are recovering within the timeframe. now i want to emphasize for the record how dire the current situation is on planet earth. we are in a global extinction crisis of proportion most don't understand. it is estimated right now more

than 16 species on the planet are threatened in this century alone. according to a report for the world wildlife fund the global population fish and birds and mammals and nvidia's and reptiles declined 58% from the time i was born in 1970 and today. we have lost more than half of all the wildlife on the planet on planet earth in the last 50 years. species today are going extinct thousand times faster than natural extinction rates. this is staggering. . . . .

to deal with the crisis and this is not just about animals it's a profound impact on human beings and i believe this would move us away from the best available science and would delay and restrict. in the few moments i have left, the bill you're considering what preevent any challenge to delisting by the determination of the fish and wildlife for five years. so if they make a mistake, which we all do, and prematurely list the species they couldn't be

challenged for five years in court and i wonder do you believe it's going to help the crisis we have now in america and beyond? >> i certainly understand the sentiment behind the proposal. it's concerning to the commonwealth of virginia. science is an evolving process and the judicial review is the tool to make sure we are doing things right. if there's a situation where we make a delisting decision that we find out was an error having to wait three more years for someone to challenge that isn't

the place we want to be so for that reason -- >> i don't think that they find us overly tedious in anyways but there's a balance between the flexibility necessary so that science can actually guide the. this bill would require agreement among the members of recovery team to change the goal of the plan even as it can emerge for the increased threat to species do you believe that this would help or hurt.

when their recovery criteria are set to the process and then because of the new data in the science coming into the equation the endgame changes. we have heard about the bipartisan process for the committee to embrace and pass the recovery act of 1997. i am concerned as it is evidenced by many stakeholders will come out in opposition to the current draft. as we look to modernize it is important that we always remember that foundational goals of this seminal act to recover the species and ecosystems and

we must agree that and 99% of the species from the brink of extinction and the efforts to reform the law must recognize the fact and be careful to guarantee that at the least we do no harm when it comes to modifying the current science-based framework. the federal government reviews the scientific information and will use it so long as it preparations the best available data. >> the importance of using the best available science is they

are critically imperiled and we may not have another chance to get it right if we are not using the best science in many places ais the chairman and others have noted a best available science is in thand research universitir nonprofit groups or the federal government itself so elevating the data among the science for other stakeholders that have just as much care runs the risk of marginalizing and may make a person in a situation where listing is easier but actually recovering from any meaningful sense is more difficult.

>> i want to address the funding a little bit. it redefines the states will in the species management and provides new resources to address the current funding shortfalls that hinder federal and state conservation program. this is a shortcoming that will be enforced and doesn't have vital funding. thank you for the question. i think it is a critical question here. they were having to prioritize the most critically endangered species and we are and that is something that is experienced across the country.

a big part of that is because the information i have shows about the quarter of federally listed species receive $10,000 or less per year toward their recovery. we are never going to make the progress that we need regardless of the state if that is the kind of commitment the federal government makes. to recover habitat and conduct science to sit on the recovery teams and develop these plans takes resources right now. the biggest impact of the

recovery of species not to prevent them from extinction but to move them off the list where they don't need the protections of the act any more. between the federal and state agencies and true collaboration is very helpful and essential to understanding what's going on at both levels and how those things interact. to that end i want to understand a few of the tactical events of the bill and secretary strickland, what is the practical effect of the governor appointing half the members of the recovery team, does it make it harder or easier to influence the recovery outcomes?

in some perspectives that make sense for the localities and states that are in the area come with the physical area of the threatened and endangered species to have a greater role in recovery, but i think this particular provision would throw things out of balance. and one sense, when a species is listed, it means that the states where the species exist have not done an adequate job of conserving them in the first place which gives primary authority and equal number or majority that goes against common sense and the other thing worth noting is that there's other states that they don't

exist that have an interest in protecting the species. and we have folks that visit the west and appreciate the western states wildlife and have an interest in making sure that is conserved basic collaboration and understanding it makes sense to have a rich dialogue from experts that particular provision would make it challenging if the science was introduced to be able to kind of do the redacted management and shift on-the-fly the way that we are working to recover species.

the litigation is absolutely necessary in its collaboration among states and the federal government. we feel like we have that relationship and the work in the conservation recreation program we work closely on a daily basis for the fish and wildlife service and there's nothing they are planning to do with respect to threatened and endangered species. was the federal listing that motivated us to develop the plan and not only did we do the state

plan that we also been used extensive use of the candidate conservation agreements because essentially if you do these things on your own private land, then you are protected from additional measures that might be adopted if we do get twisted. essentially oregon wouldn't have acted on the stage ground, the federal government would have picked up later in the process of great stress and odds rather than by collaboration. is there a possibility that this could undermine that thatcollaboration that keeps them early on the endangered species? >> to go back to your initial point in the things that you mentioned some of the safe harbor agreements for

conservation work to try to preclude listing or take positive conservation steps before the species is listed those show the flexibility as it is written and of course there are processes that can be improved and make things more seamless with respect to those agreements, but they are helpful and able to be entered into under the act and i think that is a very valuable thing you. >> thank you. senator markey. >> mr. secretary, good to have you here. the secretary was on my staff and the committee s so i'm usedo having him sit next to me. it's good to see you on the other side of the dais with.

i'm looking to you today. he's always in make common sene and smart pragmatic advisor. you say in your testimony the best way to improve implementation of the endangered species act is to recover more species faster for congress to provide adequate funding for science and management of those resources and their habitat. what is adequate funding look like and how much more do we need to appropriate and where is the need of the greatest? >> thank you for your remarks is good to see you again. the answer of how much is enough

is a difficult one to answer and perhaps is one that is one that congressional appropriators need congressional appropriators need to deal with and at the risk of being redundant information i've received has been shoving about a quarter of threatened and endangered species listing goes towards recovery and that is not acceptable. we are not going to be able to make a menta enable progress in recovering these species. without a significant dedication. >> we have prevented 99% of the listed species from going extinct because the act that always depends upon the best science. in your opinion how much of that had been dependent upon using the best science to ensure that the act works?

>> it is critical as the most important piece of ensuring the endangered species act works successfully. >> what would the impact be of this legislation that is before that is being presented to us in terms of the role that science will play in making decisions? spinnakers been some frustration expressed in this may be based on the experience that the states are not having science that they produced at least in their mind adequately considered by the fish and wildlife service on their make these decisions in recovery planning and things like that. my experience at virginia does take the state concerns into account and is using state signs when it is the best available.

the current process is working and we are skeptical of upsetting the balance. >> it would hinder the ability to work with federal agencies under the endangered species act. can you elaborate on that? >> when you are setting up the recovery plan under this legislation, one state has to be the leaders of the shar lead soe populations of a lot of aquatic species tendency and without being a referee to that process i don't think things would work as well with trying to recover the species if they were pointing fingers at each other

without a mode to coordinate things and played everybod poinn the right direction. >> this limits for judicial review of the act on the decisions such as the delisting of species so what would your opinion be of the reduction of the review in terms of your state's rolstates roll and in ge ability to protect endangered species? >> i don't want to be redundant on this point, but limiting the ability of citizens to hold their government accountable for decisions that they think are not the right decisions come if people bring court challenges that are frivolous or not adequate, they are going to be rejected. we have seen that in the past. litigation is an important tool but it is important for those

recoveries. thank you. we are proud of you. we thank you for your service. >> with great trepidation i will answer yes. >> who are some of the other members of the work with? >> i had the privilege of working for the then ranking member ed markey and i worked for peter defazio and arizona. hispanic wh >> who are your favorite? >> i was hired by senator mark

markey. >> thank you all for being here today and bringing your sense of humor and your commitment to service. mr. secretary, the testimony mentions in the economic opportunity to maintain a diverse ecology and restoring the land. these become attractive to the bikers in virginia and that is a quote. i grew up in virginia and we would drive down interstate 81 on the way from maryland very used to go right over where i used to take my dogs and hunt for quayle.

they share this experience and what these places to become more attractive for the bikers and hikers not only for the endangered species. what do you elaborate on how it can bolster economies in virginia and so on? >> there are industries and economies we have seen pop up around the recovery of threatened and endangered species. for a long time he would never see a humpback whale off the coast and now we have troops

people pay money to go off to see how. they were on a trip to the nation's conservancy and local partners working to the fish and wildlife service and others to recover a number of threatened and endangered species on the river and it's a really fascinating effort because when they recover, they filter 10 gallons of water a day when you have thousands of them in the river your water quality would be much better and that is improving water quality that supports some of the bass fisheries and people are coming from far and wide to participate in water sports and things like that. this is a system that was decimated by the vestiges of the

coal industry a decade or so ago and he's brought it back and now we see tourism pop up around those that are made possible after the endangered species recovery. is there anything you would like to mention to help secure us towards some kind of a compromise on what is a difficult issue but in closing a quick thought? the >> thank you. i agree as far as a state like colorado can't have the state is private and half is mixed with federal land along with state trust land it gets complicated. habitat is the old saying is habitat is where it sat there for species live.

this is not necessarily the case all the time and we have a population located in the small parts of utah. we showed 85% of that habitat working with local governments, federal agencies and those entities t are 85% of habitat. the burden was still listed as threatened despite the discussion or the decision by the service that would be needed, but i think my point is that they will fluctuate and anybody that does bird hunting those one year you may have it and the next couple maybe not. this is the information coming out of the science we are starting to learn so that

doesn't mean that they will recover. we have to include what is scientific entity needs but it does get tricky when you're a ya certain amount of federal land, private financed a planned within the borders of the state. >> a word of advic advice as wek for the compromise. >> i apologize, senator can you repeat the question? >> i asked a word of advice as we conclude today as we look for some kind of principled compromise on what is a difficult but important issue. >> i think i would add a little bit of insight into that continuing to answer the previous question on the

economics. as we look at protecting these habitats and ecosystems have beethatinput into the endangered threatened species we are also protecting analsoprotecting and. they have multiple uses. the outdoor recreational economy is a huge business. almost a trillion dollars of annual consumers in the united states is about 22 billion in virginia alone and we had a land conservation strategy that focuses on the biodiversity conservation and multiple uses of watershed protection and things like that and when you have these kind of synergies you can protect the species and also get economic benefits. the last poin point i'd make isf the committee would keep in mind for significansignificant intere states like virginia that unfortunately have through the mismanagement lost a lot of our iconic species in the decades and centuries ago, but don't

take for granted what you have when you have it as far as iconic wildlife. our folks have traveled all the way across the country to see bison or else or mountain lions and if it is to not be the case that the places they could use to fix this. >> thank you very much. >> those special places are called wyoming. [laughter] a couple of quick things this is intended to make the states equal partners in implementing the act. some defenders of the status quo who claim they can't adequately claimed wildlife or don't have interest to do so. the club went so far as to state authority over what you look like decision to often hostile state management is their phraseology about the bill. so, i think that you have served in high-level positions both in

the colorado parks and wildlife in arizona game and fish department for the states hostile to protecting the state's tax what is your experience? >> i think it is more a frustration. the governor included to this a lot earlier. it's create created by uncertain the decision-making process that this would be the best science of conservation and as you start marching down the road spending millions and millions of dollars that you probably don't have and then to have the goalposts move constantly predates that frustration to a point that you have to work with words conservation. it makes private landowners and even individuals and the federal

land management agencies and fish and wildlife very frustrated where at the end of the day a lot of these decisions are being decided in courts and judges are making these decisions whether they are in a decision or not. it's really born out of frustration and i think that we see some states that they have constructive criticism for. >> the hearing has been very useful in outlining the need to modernize the endangered species acendangered speciesact in a mak captures the extent of conservation capacity and expertise of the states around the country. i think we need to move beyond the current feeling policy of listing the species and then leaving them on life support. and over the weekend, the maryland-based science writer editorialized about the that the endangered species in the "washington post." they are losing the fight to

save endangered species. species. and he stated modern conservation is increasingly about maintaining populations of shallow gene pools. not only expensive and often futile but often undermined the whole point of wildlife management. so, that's how today's endangered species act operates for 30 years the defenders of the status quo prevented the prior administrations from improving the mall so i believe we need to act to work better and we appreciate the western governors association coming together in a bipartisan basis that has done an excellent job identifying the policies we can adopt to do just that. now it is our turn and i would look across the aisle with with vendors to join me in the western governors association's bipartisan work to make the act work better for both fish and wildlife and for people. i appreciate you being here today and members may submit

follow-up. the record will be open for the next two weeks ago to think of the witnesses for your time and testimony and i am especially grateful that he would take the time to be with us to share your thoughts and experiences and leadership. with that, the hearing is adjourned. >> [inaudible conversations]

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