wealth in the united states and the amount of money in american politics today they would see or fear that many of these things that are going on in the united states bear the uncanny resemblance to the england they refill that against. [inaudible conversations] those were some terrifying steps. hello everyone. thank you for being here.

this is great. i have never gotten a chance to do this or be adult bookstore event. >> is this your first time? >> like this. it could be this one. and we are starting to do things like this virtual reality that is so interesting to compare what happens in the real world or now in the

virtual world. >> i did a reading in virtual reality in a multiuser environment called the rec room. i was holding a microphone and if i wasn't people could not hear my voice coming out of the speakers that were built into this environment. innm real life i was hoping just a hand controller i could use in any other waiver by pressing a button i was ripping the object then activated thebu pa system just like i was sitting here he

would be looking at w a stage that was very cartoonish and the questions and answers. that was remarkable so how manyny have tried a virtual reality headset yet? >> almost everybody. how many of you did the pc ones? that is interesting. so then the final question is.y how many have done that in a social setting? those spoken to another human being in a virtual world?

and what will happen to us in what the world will be like. and more as it relates to the experience of the presence and future presence is used not only has this expression to make me feel present in another space to have your eyes and ears fooled completely and then the idea of presence very much relates to my own work about making us feel like we are actually together in a space. >> it is a shortened version of something that is widely

known. we would think working remotely but it emerged under the term president -- the presence although it was more fix with that current rebirth of the technology. there is others in the '90s that got our attention people talked about the conversion moment where the brain clicked into the virtual world but then to come backg into vogue and there is something beautiful about that it wasn't about tricking you but more that you are in one place then you are inju another.

so in 92 you have these crazy. >> but what word you say different now? with his vr things something that people have been doing for 30 years now? and with those academic labs to put a headmounted display. the smart phone you have all these manufacturers have a reason to make displays were high quality with the ongoing miniaturization of hardware. so on the technical side all

of a sudden those that were too big to do in the '90s that you could pack them into a small package. and throughout the 2000 but then what changed everything is latching onto the world of videogame that is got their attention and that is a first time talk you lists risk it was a ski man with the cheap magnifying lens and it did not start there but that certainly made a lot of people's ears. up and a guy named john

carmack like the only version of his duct tape masterpiece but that he famously was one of the people responsible for games like doom that would revolutionize the videogame world with that three-dimensional experience and to take the headset to the same game show he was going to for years and years and then to show people this i was not able to see that and that is

when i saw that how many people were off you lists. >> when i wishes there at the time it was the ceo there were probably 15 people? and the first five or 61 has tragically passed away since then. but those that were responsible but to bring out that generation of that kick starter early adopters so in the virtual world i was not working on virtual reality at that time.

but the chips in our phone came out we are tracking emotion in our heads and i have n a ship and as an electronic sky i turned it in my fingers were watching the trace and i could tell it was so accurate and fast i was cycle my god. this is what we have wanted as far back as we can remember so i called my team over and said we are shutting down this company were getting their money back and were going into virtual reality and that was the samee times mac somebody who had grown up reading stories that imagined not just cyberspace but virtualre reality that as terrible as the movies were it captured my

imagination those movies that might mean years i was captivated not just by how ridiculously futurist ac into us now but those early headset how cool they looked better than the rendition inside the headset. i was completely that there were rudimentary. since. and they didn't go into a headset until 2013 so that the exterior old me was like okay. now this is real so i went back to work and that you are probably not going to believe me but vr is coming. they said yeah right.

we have hailed in the birth a few times and were very wrong but no no no. this is it. at the time it was based on video games but veryy quickly the excitement of what the technology was doing was shifted focus with the idea of escapism and game -based entertainment was supplanted by the idea that when you are in there with someone else that emotional terror changes irrevocably that not only in doing anything might not experience the same thing but

to be left with this incredible lasting memory of having done it with another person. so anything you do with virtual reality as a lot of you have known the memory of having done it is putting on a headset and sitting in the room but doing what you were doing in there and it turns out your brain accesses the memories the same way real life. take so long -- a little longer from vr than seen in the photograph. so you leave with this memory of an experience but it is shared. so even games companies have recognized that it's very rare just to find a game by yourself. >> there is a couple of great

things you have written about and i made some notes in the book myself. >> it also with memory that the idea that we store our memories when theyy are presentedte spatially that is super fascinating about virtual reality that our ability to recollect is markedly improved by remembering them in the context of a familiar place and what's more familiar than putting on the headset? we will lay out the screens around us and then provide

memory but to memorize a deck of cards against a different image. so rather than trying to remember that order you are remembering a series of events. >> like the elephants left on the mango. and when you add to that this thing called embodiment so when i did this writing or reading in vr but as a lightweight sumac you can look

around but you don't see anything but in theng social world like the one that you built and games in the narrative experience if you look down and see a body like i did you have your hand, it is not a mediated form of communication anymore you are in there and doing things so metaphor of using control but the sum six. those are gone. you are reaching out to grab things and contacting other people then the memory is that much stronger and then other things i am sure we will get

into but there are tricks to comply on the psyche. >> what about the space between us? when we communicate i remember i saw jared last night and we were catching up and he toldwe me actually the first device was not amicably but in the 50s it wasdr for cat. but it was like a headset use to study cats by presenting them with simple lines and images and this was in the 50s. >> but we used to debate how many bit per second are moving

between us right now. but that is the thing. what do you think it is working or not working with communication? >> i willfa say that not only do i lack theou technical knowledge to talk about it in bits but even if i did i would have skirted around that. i am a culture writer so if you keep asking me what became fascinating was the holistic experience and i know what goes into it. you are an engineer with physics ande other things so you made an incredible career understanding left brain and right brain i only have one and i don't remember which side. so if we are to be approximatingg this the only

things that we would have to be tracked are the heads and our hands. if you have your hand it to your chin not in your head then that would come through for your facial expression our bodies are extrapolated based on your hands for the placement of your arms and in some platforms they say that too much you can have a torso and hand so right now we are dealing with what we can muster the ability but what is remarkable is how many gaps that your brain fills in but thereio is earlier orientation

demos and to stand in front of a mirror what you are changes could be a red balloon or a skeleton but no matter what it is if you turn your head yourself in a skull or or the metal nikon it doesn't take much to see you in this assemblage of parts because your voice is coming through. what you do with your hands when you are listening and we are having this conversation and we sat somewhere and we are talking. of course if you like we spent time together before.

>> you should relate the story of the people you got a chance toof meet after they first started to know each other. >> it isn't most ambitious multiuser but a popular one. but when i first started to connect with people as a journalist i net someone. group, other. i said, as a reporter, that's exactly the kind of thing i like to hear. so i spent time with these two people in vr. the thing that struck me about them then was the comfort they

had with one another. because these are embodied avatars. we're just hanging out in a neutral environment. it's kind of like the game room and people sit around and play cards or just sit around. there's a stage and you can play charades. there are all these tools you can use in there. i was talking to a guy on his name was ben. while i was talking to him, his friend, a woman named priscilla. she was taking posted notes, writing on the notes with the pen in vr and sticking it to his avatar one at a time. as time went on, she had made a bikini out of these post-it notes and stuck it on this guy's chest. and it wasn't just the shape of the post-it notes, what she had drawn on them was effectively a bikini top. this very casual intimacy it

was already part of their relationship, struck me immediately. fast forward a few weeks later, ben had driven from his home in cincinnati to alabama to visit priscilla. and they spent a few days together. by the time i connected with them on the skype video call. two things about that that are still with me. one is when you do a skype video call or face time with someone, you're never looking at each other. if they're trying to look at you, they're looking at a camera lens. and if there looking at what they see of you, then your eyes always doing this. this no actual connection. something is lost in that mediation. not only was that happened between me on one end and ben and priscilla on the other, but they were sitting according to the decorum of the real world

and people who haven't spent much physical time together. so there was a tiny bit of awkwardness that i could see. i didn't know if that was because they were feeling out the early stages in their relationship or if they had kind of regressed back to the social code of being effectively strangers. but it really set into relief for me, what is enabled in vr. since then, i've learned partially it was because they weren't necessarily the match they thought they might be. in fact, priscilla ended up marrying someone else she met in that world that that's covered in a chapter in the book but we did an excerpt or an adaptation of the chapter in the april issue of wired and we made it much more about the wedding that

then happened. it's kind of the fast forward to thiother relationship. if you have read that piece in the magazine, then the book chapter is a prequel. if you have not read the magazine piece and read the book, then you get a nice - - at the end. but, it really is the thing that holds true still from the very first time i saw this arise. is that the casual intimacy, it's the kind you don't get getting to know someone in any other space. you don't get it getting to know someone in a chat room or a text message chain on a dating app. you certainly don't get into life. so there's this kind of third track of interpersonal relations that has opened up that i found fascinating facts the. >> there have been studies done

that i think was a famous swedish researcher that would put people in black suits and he would put little dots in the darkness on their bodies and have them sit in chairs, initially still.film them with the camera so what you were seeing when you watch the camera playback was nothing but the tiny dots on their joints. then he would allow people to move. if the person in the frame was someone you knew in particular like your spouse, and they later did these tests with skin response. your body would know within a fraction of a second the ãyou would imagine if it was someone you knew or loved over close to, when you saw the moving, just as a bunch of dots on the screen, you'd instantly know that it was them. there's so much to be said about that. in second life, my world before, we communicated with text for the most part.

and there have been documentary films done about people meeting each other, falling in love and getting married in second life. another thing i found fascinating as you did, i got to meet some of these people like the first time they met. when you are thereabouts in the real world having known each other for some years in second life. i did always find it fascinating that they seemed to know each other, be able to complete each other sentences. i guess this leads to the question is is there some magic elixir or for speckles between us were communicating that vr captures or were we making it up all along? >> i really do think there's something special about what happens in an embodied virtual environment. it's because i think it's a happy medium between the anonymity of the internet as we

have known it in the constraints and hesitations of her lifereal life. unbridled anonymity, we can be anyone we want and we can have a conversation. and because there's time to type and consider your answers, you are able to be the person you really want to present to this world for these people. so you're effectively curating yourself. we all like to think we are presenting the best version of ourselves. but, you have that happening and then what's also happening because everyone is where they are and you're just behind screens, closer comes very fast. if you feel comfortable with these people, it's easy to spill your guts. but then you happen to meet them in real life and you realize, you wouldn't know you

dots. you wouldn't know their mannerisms. in real life when you meet someone, what you get about them immediately is the rhythms. but what you don't get is there true personality. right? that could be nerves. it could be being on your best behavior. whenever it is. it's highly likely a person is just not disclosing. it's hard to be vulnerable in real life and give them we really are. so at the same time, if you take the time to get to know someone in real life, that often leads to as we know, these incredible connections. so in between these two polls, that is entirely other cadence of relationship. there's a degree of anonymity.

you can choose a name and makes your avatar the way you want it to. but because you're talking, and your gestures are being translated, it's almost impossible to really cover for you are. you can think you're presenting the best self but it's you. your essence will come out because you having real-time interactions with these people. but because of that degree of anonymity you have, you might feel more confident than you would in the real world. so you have a little bit of feeling emboldened and you have the real you. and you have the nonverbal communications and the mannerisms. put that together and what that means is, you are blending this past between those two extremes that allows for vulnerability and disclosure and intimacy. that's suitable for people who might have anxiety going into that from the beginning. a lot of people that i've spoken to love these multiuser

vr experiences, i love them attributed to the fact that they have difficulty finding these connections in real life. there's nothing artificial about it but it's not like going into a chat room and constructing a version of yourself. it's really you. but justthat comfort level . that little part of your brain that hasn't fully clicked over to vr is saying, don't worry about it. but the rest of your brain is letting these things arise. >> it's fascinating that despite the body and the emotion being conveyed immediately to someone else. it's amazing how virtual environments can create, i always think of a bit of an interaction, a safety zone. that allows you to be more present and more engaging. when i started working on second life, it was in 1999. at that time, i went to - - at the same time that i was so

struck by what an odd burning man experience was. and that he felt very disarmed and willing to interact with people. i was so curious back then asked why the social contract of an environment seemed to cause me to engage with people in a different way. of course vr and virtual worlds is the same thing over again. for me, it's one of the things that makes me undying way curious and optimistic about continuing the journey. something next to talk about, let me say this. facebook, the last week has been amazing. great material for journalists worldwide. it's been incredible and we've

all been collectively worrying about even condemning technology as this destroyer that would simplify or stupefy us or bring us further away from each other. but what say you of vr? despite the fact is very technology focused for sure, is it another great destroyer like facebook? >> it certainly can be. that's exactly where we are. every good sign has a bad sign. everything that makes immersion better and everything that makes intimacy stronger also has a terrifying dark timeline. i will give you an example. the thing we don't have yet if you and i were in the art together unless we were developers and had these add-on modules in our headsets.is our eyes would be tracked. for everything from a slow blank to a wink to you looking over my shoulder be that would be simulated based on where our heads have turned. but if i turn my head, we can keep eye contact because at some point my eyes would slide over in my avatar's head to look straight ahead. coming as early as this year

they will have headsets that have high tracking built in. that's amazing for a lot of reasons. it's good for fatigue. you can look around and selecting is more easily. it means it's easier to render complicated environments because you only have to devote the computing horsepower to where exactly you are looking. but, if your eyes are being tracked, then all of a sudden your headset could be a collection device for the kind of data that every advertiser have waited decades to be able to get. where you look, how long you look at it and after that, when facial expressions are mapped into the are based on muscular contraction or sensors or whatever. how you responded when you saw this stuff. something that is incredible for nonverbal communication. something that's incredible for intimacy, also has a terrifying

misapplication of it. similarly, this - - point of physical proximity. personal space is very real and vr. it can also be used to traumatize someone effectively. so every experience we've had with toxic behavior on the internet. yelling at someone in videogame. sending them images. sending them hateful things about themselves. someone walks up to you, sticks their hands out or just says something in your ear. it's a much more visceral than anything we've had come to us via screen or even audio before. so now is the time that everyone who was building a platform like high fidelity, like rec room, is reckoning with how do we stop the - - of

the internet from happening all over again. 20-30 years ago, we prioritized growth and scale over everything including the user experience. that allowed these legacy companies were new companies that took forever and then looked behind them and the like, oh my god. what have you done or what have we not done? just last year is to be unveiled a new program to make the comments nicer. twitter is still grappling with the inability to stop hate speech. and hate speech directed, not just viewing hate but at a person. everyone is working in the r has seen this movie before. no one wants the sequel. what i feel positive about is that for every bad thing that can happen, people have seen it coming. seen the potential for it to come. whether that's recognizing the fact that we at some point,

there may need to be regulatory approach. cat fishing on the internet is a terrible thing. cat fishing in the , imagine the nigerian scam. someone pops up and says hey grandma, it's mean. just wants to make sure he is your bank account to send you some money. and he's embodied and you are in there with them. you wouldn't break your confidence or your trust. so fraud period of use. harassment. psychographic data. anything that we are grappling with right now is amplified 1 million times in something as visceral virtual-reality. >> but there are positives as well. >> yes. i bring them up to say learning

of them is an important thing. >> you can't get your phone out when you happen these wonderful things on your head. the burning man story made me think of this too. that kind of summer camp thing. we're all in this together and the real world doesn't intrude here. in thevr, the real world doesn' intrude and not and i'm avoiding it kind of way. they don't come in. >> and you have a section in the book talking about medication and some of the meditation apps. there are many meditation apps and small teams building things around mindfulness, meditation, relaxation that are based on v . >> the two magical things, one

is the ability to have visualization through a meditation practice. imagine breathing in and when you breathe out, a plume of multicolored crystals. as your breathing flows and as yukon, the color changes and you see yourself settling in. we can see your heartbeat with these devices for example. >> you could walk up to someone else and meet them for the first time and see their heart beating. if they wanted to let you. >> that sounds very intrusive. there is, you can in some cases here breathing. so there's a chance not just for biometric monitoring but biometric feedback. so you can use your own vital cues rendered visually in whatever way you like to help yourself center. and also you strip the notifications away and you put

yourself in an environment. if anyone has tried to maintain a meditation practice and you say i'm going to sit for 20 minutes. 18 minutes later, like finally here it is. two minutes later, it's over. imagine spending 18 of those 20 minutes and the place you are trying to get to rather than the two. >> we should take time for questions i think. >> and we have a microphone. >> there's something new to hit on as if you haven't heard already. >> want to encourage you to hold the mic up close to your mouth and ask your question. preferably in the form of the question. [laughter] wanted to ask the question and take advantage and then we will go back here. if you've got a good arm, you can throw a rock and hit the stanford medical school, what

fields are going to be the most affected by virtual-reality? >> all of those. for starters. every field can be affected. certainly medicine is already being affected. visualization which we were just talking about, a few years ago there was a pediatric surgeon in florida who needed to do a procedure on an infant. a cardiac procedure. before the doctor went in, got a virtual reconstruction of th infant's heart. new exactly where he needed to go . so he attributed his success after the fact to the ability he had to do a dry run in vr. education. getting over geographical constraints. bringing kids to other landmarks, other countries. art resources. when we give these things to adults or anyone using vr in

the early days. when i talked about this. you go in to a museum and you say, this is amazing. i'm really close to his painting. then you look around and you'll be by yourself and say, what's next. then your hovering and the like, this is amazing. what's next? that what's next goes away when there are other people in there with you. you share the experience and that's what you want to go back to. >> i think the practical or tactical answer relative to my own work, as peter said, videogames have been the poster child. they been out of the opening shot of vr. frankly, overall, they haven't done that well. but, education and distance travel and marveling at something in a place where you could never go in the real

world or you couldn't easily get there. that in my opinion, together with other people is what where first going to use these headsets for. if i could put you in front of the smartest living physicists and that you listen to a lecture and then ask questions, that's fantastic. how many people around the world would don one of these crazy headsets to do that? a lot. i think more so than video games. i think we will see social experiences that are educational in nature being the startup point.>> one thing that's happening on stanford campus, the virtual human interaction lab run by a guy named jeremy - - he published his own book called experience on demand and it's fantastic. jeremy and his students have all done this and credible work investigating what the phenomenon of presence means for social action. for lack of a better term. meaning, you can influence someone's psychology and behavior in good and bad ways depending on any variable you can change in vr.

we are very suggestible creatures. if you change someone's weight, when they come out of vr, they will move more slowly. if you make someone shorter or taller, they were at the different way when they come out on the headset. we are in vr really matters. as strange as that is to say because in a lot of instances, we can be anyone we want to be or take the form of anything we want to. so jeremy and other labs are studying what does this mean for things like antisocial behavior. prosocial behavior. for someone who sees the good in vr, it's largely because of work like that that's being done to ensure were using this in theright way and to a enable our better angels. >> since vr is basically a fake reality, how can the user be

aware of how far it is or how close it is to reality? or will he lose that connection immediately and basically believe everything? >> you're never going to know you're not using virtual reality. there is a phenomenon where people who use it for a long time and fall asleep with it on and wake up, there's a little disorientation that happens. but by and large you go into this consciously. we never lose our grip on reality. we are reptilian brain believes in the virtual surrounding and that's what enables all of the stuff for talking about now and that i talk about in thebook. but you are also , the balance of your brain. if the reptilian brain takes over as far as believing your surroundings but the rational brain is likeyou are still in y living will. room.

we are a very long way, thankfully, from being able to dupe someone as far as what they see and where they think they are. we are years away. there is a scenario in which that becomes possible. that's why i say, that's where you get into perhaps the need for regulatory approach. the need to authenticate and verify experiences. just like we do with identities on social media platforms. that's the authentication burden that we will be grappling with when the technology gets good enough. this all has tobe done in good faith . you can't give someone a reality because you want them to have it and they don't know it's not real. so i don't know what those mechanisms are. philip knight.

he's light years ahead thinking about a lot of this stuff. >> it's interesting to know that what you are suggesting is that behavior can be transformed, transformational, outside after being in virtual-reality and then coming outside. at stanford, the quarterbacks did virtual-reality to look at various defenses. was that jeremy's lab? which was very productive for the quarterbacks. i know in medicine too, it's being used for doctors doing various procedures as you suggested this cardiac surgeon. the behavior on theoutside with reality is improved and enhanced . that's pretty phenomenal when we think of the ramifications there was i thinking that.

>> i think in both of those cases and even what we were talking about meditation. it's the benefit of distilling the benefits of thousands of hours of trial and error into, do it, reset. that's what's amazing about the football training technology. a quarterback in a regular football practice. you set up a play, you run it. you get back into position, you from the snap count. it's just a quarterback.no one else is involved. quarterback just wants the simulation. again and again. the efficiency of the experience is what's transformative. same goes for the surgeon. and so, there are many ways in which virtual-reality changes our behavior in real life. but the efficiency of simulation is in those cases what makes it such a powerful educational and training tool. >> creativity and plasticity

are the two things we see manifest in the ability of vr to change people. we are all more creative when given the tools. when given easy access to lightweight casual tools as we are in vr. we are all also discovered we are a lot more plastic. we can change our lives, change our bodies and ourselves in ways that are profound to see that when you experiment with vr. >> i'm a believer. i was at a vr medicine conference and loved what i saw. but i will turn to the dark side for a minute. professor - - from stanford talks about the fact that boys, by the time there undergrads

have typically put in 10,000 hours into video gaming and an additional 10,000 hours into pornography. >> chapter 9. >> his opinion that there may come a time when boys need affirmative action to get into college. isn't the world going to be much worse from apparent standpoint in terms of our kids being immersed in virtual-reality world? i'm sure you both thought a lot about it. >> you take the sex one and i will take the not sex one. [laughter] >> you first. >> okay. he talked about things, video gaming and pornography. video games simplify the world. the relationship we have with another person is to shoot

them. we keep track of simple scores and numbers to measure ourselves against others. videogames have immersed us in that medium. that simplify medium for generations now. vr is not like that. in particular, the more rich, open and deal virtual-reality environments are the more challenging they become as a way of engaging with others. i believe deeply for my time with second life that in general, second life was better for young men or anyone because when you walked into a bar so to speak or literally. in second life, you are walking into a space that had three different languages spoken. it had people from 20 different countries and a total of 50 people. if you wanted to do business with those people which are often trying to do, you had to create an effective working

relationship. and that was challenging computer next door neighbor. i would say that vr in its most general sense. not in its narcotic name like sense and i'm sure there will be examples of that. but more broadly, it's more day-to-day. he presents us with environments that are the opposite of videogames in that they are typically very challenging and complex to master. i think when you pushed that way, i think that's what we all want. that's my statement on videogames.>> first off, i want to thank you for not using the term black mirror. >> not yet. >> with regards to the worry about vr pornography. there's a lot happening, of course, it's being made. there is an internet about technology and its rule 34, how will this make me able to have sex or watch people having sex? now, the evolution or the

devolution of the pornography industry has been predicated in large part on its value being degraded by piracy on the internet. things became available for free. so people started, we are still trying to make money and things became more extreme as a way to stand out. so a lot of the handwringing being done about this generation of boys that comes out with 10,000 hours of watching pornography is watching pornography that is intrinsically, i would argue, different from the magazine pages that kids might have grown up looking at in one decade or pictures online. what's happening in vr is that any desensitization that's happened with internet pornography again is mediated. there's a detachment. so you couple the kind of ever

intensifying in the ever ratcheting up extremity of the acting portrayed and how they're being portrayed and how people are being treated. in those scenes. when you're watching through a screen, you are not partnering. you are not implicated in it. when you put on a headset and are looking at adult contact, you are there. but that means is if not a participant, the illusion of participation. you are in the room and that changes the calculus considerably. what that means is that two things have happened. the content being made, the pendulum has one back entirely the other way to a style of pornography that almost seems quaint. in many cases, feels much more like holistic act of sex for love between two or more peopl , depending on what you're

watching. in some cases with vr pornography, the very thing that was the theoretical underpinning as it's been written about. the act of penetration is cropped out because it's about eye contact and send somebody and someone being close to you. it's about people whispering in your ear talking to you. it's not something happening between two people. it's not sitting back and watching things happen to people. and so this other kind of pornography has become insanely popular in vr circles. in some ways and i've spoken to performers about this and consumers about this. everyone is surprised by what happened. because you think when you give someone a headset, give them

the ability to do or see anything they want. the whole thing would just be reenacted all over. >> also have what you talked about with - - the other possibility is the person on the other line is - - a fascinating new set of - - is being created for interaction between living people having sex or simulated sex in vr. that will create a whole wonderful set of explorations about people are and where they want to be with and what constitutes adultery or whatever. >> i'm not saying that every kid should have 10,000 hours of pornography under their belt before they go to college. what i am saying is that often falls to the parent. but i would say what i am saying in the industry that is making money from a technology for the first time in a very long time is giving people what

vr enables. that is intimacy rather than extremity and that is for me, a heartening thing. >> next question. >> i've been reading a number of audibles of how addictive mobile phones are and the apps. i think he sort of eluded to some of that earlier but i'd be interested to hear how you think the addictive tendencies are either different or the same with vr and how they should be approached or maybe even regulated? >> phones are sticky for a lot of different reasons. phones are literally sticky depending on how you treat them. but the experience is tricky because apps when using them. vr creators don't necessarily want you using them for that long if it leads to discomfort. and right now, in these early days, vr is something you can

use for an hour. maybe couple hours. hard-core people would use for 3-4 hours.that majority of people won't use that long. for talking about for large degree, a much - - experience. just by virtue of the constraints of the technology right now, you're not seeing those instincts being indulged by the creators of those experiences. it's something we will need to contend with. just like the handwringing over any new technology.the idea were spending too much time or our brains are being distracted. right now, there's nothing intruding on this which is what makes these interactions and experiences so meaningful. it will be a thing but right now, thankfully it's not. >> it's different. the choice to use these rather addictive and well studied, perhaps over and properties of

particularly applications and notifications on phones is quite different than vr. interesting. >> i want to thank both peter and philip for being here. we're over time and i want to make sure they get a chance to sign some books and talk to you further.peter is going to be signing. you can ask a question. even if you haven't bought a book but i encourage you to pick up a copy. a lot of what they talked about and more is covered in here. philip will stick around and answer questions as well. it's a serious topic and an important topic. i can't thank these guys enough for the seriousness they brought to it tonight. can we give them a round of applause? [applause] [inaudible conversations] ...