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>> well, i think we dealt a museum that looks at three different angles on influence of the bible, first of all, what the story is talking about and what the history to have book as it spreads around the world through translation and finally, what is the influence, the ripple effect of the book as translated and goes into different cultures and certainly in western culture, our story of american history is full of how many interact with the bible and the difference it made on the different cultures within american culture, so certainly roosevelt is drawing upon his own experience as american looking over all the different

society and different dynamics happening but also at the museum of the bible we try to branch out and look at what is the influence of the bible across the whole globe with different -- different cultures beyond america. >> one to have ripple's effect is bible's influence on literature and that's what we want to talk about today. >> the bible has become so common in just in ordinary discourse, we are familiar especially in western culture with its themes, concepts or ideas, with characters, you know, with expressions and so this becomes a pretty familiar sort of repository that writers can write upon and can write on many drinks as --

>> what are the biblical influences? >> here at the museum we have the display set up where we are putting a selection of books and title bring biblical expression. east of eden is genesis four, the story of cain and abel. you have god sending cain out to the east and vanishing after breaking code of conduct and killing his brother. so, you know, steinbach is drawing on the novel of good and evil and the struggle between -- between brothers that are trying to please their father and so steinbach was able to pick up on the title give extra meaning. >> the sun also rises, ernst

hemmingway. >> yeah, the -- let me pass on that one for the moment. >> well, let's come back then to eric maria remark, time to love and a time to die. >> yeah, for mark, the title, a deeply meaningful book, starts with vanity and struggle of finding where do we find meaning in life, in life so full and chapter three verse 2, you know, you have the quote, there's a time to be born and a time to die also picking up on sort of, you know, familiar litany of different ideas of their being times to do different things, also seen in verse 8 there. so for remark, you know, you know, the volume is looking back

on this experience of german soldier that's coming back for furlough and all you see around you is carnage and it's in that that, you know, they are finding coming back and rekindling old relationship of love, so in this devastation at the same time you can find love, so in this sense, they are drawing on that biblical quote, evoke this sense of, you know, toil struggle, carnage and yet finding meaning in life. >> so there's a historical fiction book that we have talked but you also have nonfiction here, let's talk about holocaust survivor, all rivers run to the sea and the sea is never full. >> yeah, for basel, they are drawing all rivers run to the sea and the sea is never full and the two volumes of the memoir are pulling out verse 1,

well, chapter 1 verse 7, it's the idea of the cycle and even though the waters, you know, run to the sea, the sea is never full, you constantly have the sense of trouble and toil and yet, at the same time, there's hope and it's sort of cycle for himself, he's looking back at his -- at his childhood as well as the atrocities of holocaust. also looking at the life after war when involved with social justice, so this expression, i think, again, evoked the sense of constant hope that we as people and he himself tried to fuel as well as greater sense of there's the great suffering in the world, the suffering doesn't seem to disappear and yet the hope doesn't extinguish either.

>> all dealing with world war i or world war 2 wartimes? >> yeah, even in recent history, we spoke quite about quotes and that sets theme, a lot that expresses similar struggle and how do we find meaning in the struggle. >> where is it in the bible? >> most traditionally attribute today king soloman in ancient israel where you have king david and the greater reflection as you go through psalms which are wisdom material that's sort of

reflecting israel's view of god celebrating and with the psalms, a great sense of difficulty and how do we make sense to have challenges that we face, how do we make sense is god really favoring us, is it worth following him and all the nations around us that have different practices, own sense of wrestling through ethics and moraleses and is this something that we want to continue doing. >> zeth, before you opened museum, have you been surprised as the number and breath of books that use the bible and bible quotes? >> i have, this has been an educational for me. writers within the books are playing off of each other, are reexpressing each other, this

idea of intertextuality, i didn't study a lot of recent literature outside of high school classes like most of us do. i was able to work with a number of professors that spend a lot of time, we have two advisers from baylor university that spend quite a bit of time in classroom. but the depth of evoking the ideas and different ideas whether it's drawing on biblical theme to go to a similar direction or biblical theme to subvert and going in a different direction, this is different and never-ending.

>> good afternoon and welcome to book tv on c-span2 and the visit of museum of the bible in washington, d.c., the museum of the bible just opened in november of last year, about 30 million bibles are sold every year, number one best-selling book in the world and our goal for the next hour and a half is to talk about literature and how the bible is used in modern literature, ancient literature, et cetera, et cetera. if you want to participate in our conversation this afternoon, here is how you can do, 202 is the area, 8201 if you live in mountain and pacific times. we will get to the calls in just a few minutes. i wanted to ask you first about the exhibit that you have on band bibles and burning of the bible, what is this? >> yeah, it's an exhibit, to be honest with you, it went through its own learning curve on how we

wanted to present it, initially, the museum thought let's do exhibit on related persecution but we realized that we really wanted to take a different turn with that and this whole exhibit is here to talk about the influence the bible has had on people, now, because of that, we wanted to look at -- we decided to look more specifically at how when the bible is translated, comes into different societies, often times it leads to identity on community transformation, you know, people start to look at themselves differently whether it's different ethics and different morals would be the larger society, so specifically the ban of burn exhibit discuss es what happens when people start to become different from larger regime that they're a part of, we focus on stories, you know, the holocaust and some of the struggles at the time and

during red china and older periods where we had feuds between protestants and catholics, the government in place, majority government which is often times, you know, looking down to the minority groups in trying squash them and make sure that they don't get out of line. >> so is the bible the most ban book ever? >> i think arguably you can say so. the reality is that books are often caught in cross fire. there's a lot of books that have been burned, so during the holocaust, you had many books burned, it wasn't just hebrew tourist roles and sacred writings and a lot of cultural

books, but certainly on many occasions. >> another exhibit that you have here is the printing press, what's the significance? >> well, the printing press really led to explosion literacy. it influenced the rest of the world society, but essentially the printing, he wasn't completely novel, maybe as we might assume, for centuries you had the chinese and koreans working to building and putting letters in place, the movable type kind of thing in different regions but goodenburg that turn intoed a machine that was first

in europe and put together printing press and, you know, a gold worker who had fine skills in being able to put letters together into a form and it set off and inspired a revolution. they were able to start printing books much more quickly and eventually that led to economy in price and -- and then that also pushed greater literacy and greater demand for we want to, you know, send books and bibles to people in other languages, so there had been a lot of bible translation, bible translation started in the first century and even, you know, even before that the jews translated what we called starting in century bce, so there had been translations and slowly grown but after the printing press it really led to

explosion of the opportunity. >> what was the version of the bible that goodenberg was printing? >> no, it wasn't, it was prior to that time. goodenberg was printing on latin bible. >> now, is there a goodenburg printing liable at the museum? >> we have a section, there's a fair number that's in existence, library of congress has a full version but our goal has been mainly to set out, we have several sections of it in larger exhibit including like a little table that allows, you know, kids to be able to try to put the letters together, i think our focus was to give the opportunity for them to contribute, how does it work, folks on the experience of it. >> just to give a people of experience of where we are, where are we seated right now?

>> we are seated close to impact of the bible, in this section we call the bible in the world, we have four different sections on our impact floor, the floor is 55,000 squire -- square feet total, we have a fly through washington which is really a ride and people will stand on a platform, it'll give you the 4d experience with sound and water and smells and it'll take you through different places in washington that feature inscription throughout the city, you have a bible on america exhibit, a bible now media experience and then we are in bible in the world which has 23 pavilions where bible has influenced on film, on music, a couple of topics that we are talking about right now. >> our focus is on bible and literature, let's talk about some of the other books that are

on display at the bible museum and that includes edith, 1905. >> again, what we are focusing on here is kind of giving people an introduction on how many bibles have pulled ideas and titles, she pulled out qui in siac but it's in the house of merth, she's a social critic and writing about laffic and elements in gilded age how the wealthy are destroying beauty and the value through their materialism.

many have expectation that life of glits and glamor, popularity, this is where we can find meaning where she's actually going back to quinsacs and coming face to face with challenges and struggles. >> i think a lot of people will understand the book or at least the reference when you talk about margaret, the needle's eye 1989. >> it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to go through heaven. her discussion on, you know, the values and the social status of, you know, the rich and poverty and how, you know, she's kind of

drilling down into this -- into this life of poverty and why it is that some people find value in that versus just the automatic assumption of comfort to riches. >> so there's a lot of interpretations of that quote, is it a sin to be rich? >> yeah, i think that's the beauty of often times literary writers drawing on the bible because, because you're able to -- to pull off of quotes and be able to bring it into a new setting and sort of give it new meaning so we in 21st century can pull it in and give sort of our own different spin to it, in this sense the intertextuality and play of words and throughout time there have been arguments, you know, against or the value of poverty, you think of social

movements that have been important to caring for the poor which is a large topic in the bible and it's certainly without dispute that the folks have taken these themes and debated them and that's part of what led to this rich history of diverse biblical interpretation in different parts of the world. >> let us now praise famous men, this is a nonfiction book by aggie, what's the book about? >> again, this title is drawn from a quis iac, chapter 44 verse 1, let us praise famous men and also, you know, praise those with who have no memorial, so, you know, i think by default, you know, i think that part of the value of the title is that when you first read it you will probably imagine it's

quoting and referring to popularity and i think aggie is able to turn on this expectational, turn on its head the expectation because he's talking about the sharecroppers' families that are trying to allude death in the deep south. he's bringing this important dignity, inherent dignity of people within their poverty and within their hardship and these are the people that have no memorial so i think it's -- this volume to celebrate the dignity of the people. >> are these authors in your view from what they have seen, are they well educated in what's in the bible? >> that's an exceptional question, the reality is that they aren't necessarily, they don't have to be because -- because the bible has become so

prevalent in western civilization, authors are often times able to grab expressions without necessarily being, you know, deep of interpretation of the bible, because themes are familiar, it's advantageous for writers often times to be able to pull things that are familiar within culture. , of course, a lot of the quotes that we have been talking from titles is not familiar with most people, at times you do have writers as well as literary critics that are in bible because it has been important source of literary thought both in ancient times and throughout many generations and that literary thought has certainly taken many twists and turns in our own day with -- as we are deeply thoughtful of social justice issues, it then becomes

-- a very important book because, you know, even in the bible itself it presents, different views on different topics, you have the writer of quis iac wrestling and different things that seem to be happening but that happens in many other writers as well where you can read different portions of the book, and you ask, are they saying the same thing, so it becomes a very -- a book with great fuel to draw from. >> lord of the flies by william, a wrinkle in time, knew a movie by madeline lingel, some of the other books that have biblical references. 202-748-8200. 8201 in mountain time time time.

good afternoon from the museum of the bible. >> good afternoon, i wanted to ask about the 1611 edition of king james bible, i had heard that it contained -- and i want ed him to comment if it had third and second and if he could comment -- >> the 1611 version of the bible. >> yeah, whether it contained apocrafa. >> what is that, by the way? >> what we often called the old testament of apocrafa were written in different locations around, you know, ranging around israel to also down in egypt,

further west, expressing views of the jews as they were spread around. the christian bible for many, many generations predominantly featured the old testament apocrafa, christian and church used for bible, the bullgate, for example, some of the reformers when they started going to original languages and translating they went back to hebrew liable which did not include additional jewish writings and debated whether that should be included and they did not include old testament apocrypha, many english formations did not include

apocrypha but still included in a number of translations and even until today but these are writings are common for for catholic bible as well as eastern orthodox christians and several different editions that they have in different communities. >> michael, alabama, hi, michael. >> good afternoon, i've heard much about the museum of the bible through moody radio and american family radio, but didn't know that it was -- this was the first day of opening. speaking of that, you hear all too often word of god, word of god from protestant leaders and quote, holy mother church, unquote from catholic leaders. i'm sick and tired of these leaders not telling you,

preachers not telling you how to think but what to think and i want to prove that a christian can take the bible seriously but think for themselves or herself, i'm so glad you answered a question about the apocrypha, so what -- which are the books that the old testament scribes did not include, i know the book of ina is one, they decided not to include and which -- >> let's get answer to that, michael in alabama, thank you. >> yeah, there are additional books, the first caller mentioned first and second, there's a collection of them and they actually range. different books between eastern christian orthodox volumes as well. the answer is not extremely simple but there are often times

over a dozen of books and we have large display on history floor where you can explore the different involved and you can find different bibles that people would have around the world today, so we encourage you to come, i think -- i trust you to enjoy your visit. >> and this is not opening day of the museum, it opened in november of last year, we are just here on book tv talking about literature in the bible. next call is denise in west palm beach, florida, denise, good afternoon. >> good afternoon, gentleman. sorry to do this to you, i callo ask one question, the head of egypt, wanted two copies of every book in the world for the library of alexandria and 70 rabbis put the book together, that's why it was called the

septiuagint, an orthodox jewish friend of mine, i asked him if the dead sea included the books not in the catholic bible and he said, no, they were not and he called me five minutes later, denise, i have a confession to make, i would hope that they would not be in dead sea scrolls but they were, move get away from that, my other question is could you explain to everybody the misunderstanding regarding the catholic church and the bible prior to the protestant rebellion of 1517 and the printing press being printed in nearly 1440's, because if the situation is explained is that the catholic church didn't want anyone to read the bible when in

reality to make one bible out of animal skins and everything cost a fortune, so they had to chain it up so people wouldn't steal the bible and when printing press came out, then everybody started getting bibles -- >> denise, you seem to have a pretty deep knowledge, you seem to have a pretty deep knowledge of history, why is that? >> number one, i'm roman catholic but that's not why i have the deep knowledge of it. i used to do radio shows for religion politics and happened to do shows on what i'm mentioning right now, thank you. >> thank you, sir.

>> yeah u to -- to your question, history is complicated. there's really one reason for it. i think a very important topic is the issue of literacy so in the middle ages literacy was low and people's access to the bible was in many cases very visual, you think of stain glass, you think of -- it was communal and you go to cathedral, for example, something that people do together. they're not really often times reading bibles on their own, so i think, you know, when the printing press comes along it opens new channels for literacy in coming centuries that will revolutionize society. i think that's a topic that -- that is important in the question asked. >> another presidential quote that you have here at the museum and this is woodrow wilson, quote, no study is more important to the child than the study of the bible and of the

truth which it teaches. what does that mean? >> well, for many centuries and even in our early years, again, we were just talking about literacy but the bible was just part of, both motivator as well as subject that was studied, so many people, you know, used a desire to read the bible, wanted to, you know, spread education but at the same time many people used the bible as -- as a tool for education, so, you know, as educational systems in america, they're still developing now, one of the early years of development, the bible was largely this main source of, you know, writings to be able to use to supplement as well as illustrate and so, you know, even running up through woodrow wilson, the bible is just a very

common source of -- of ideas and expressions as we have been mentioning. >> there's a term that a lot of our viewers of a certain generation will remember and that's the mcguffey reader. >> of course, i didn't read a mcguffey reader as i was growing up. this is something i have learned in the past since working with the museum. the mcguffey reader, they started creating in 1830's and early days of public education you have lessons of education side by side with using the bible as to kind of teach the biblical lessons and so this is really a primary book that's used throughout the schools, so by the time you get to the 1960's, they had published over 120 million mcguffey reader, a very primary book used

in education significance for american history and even sort of the bible's influence with american history is you have educational lessons, biblical lessons side by side so the ethical and moral lessons that were included had a great influence on shaping, you know, the american mind and conscious especially in these earlier days and now, you know, now it's becoming, you know, a little bit of distant memory. >> so the mcguffey reader would include biblical lessons in the reading? >> it did, that was part of the purpose. of course, there are so many volumes out here. here at the museum we have a couple on display so that you can sort of see the very simple side by side examples. >> you've also got a display or somebody else mentioned here in the exhibit is horrisman, fascinate to go realize how the bible had a pretty integral and

so horrismann, so when they started the public schools, horacemann was responsible and talked about responsibility and citizenship and certainly, you know, man had the view that the bible would have a good influence on people if it was used, so that turned out to be part of american history. >> let's hear from amber in lake charles, louisiana. amber, you are on tv.

make your comment. >> thank you, can you talk about james and -- [inaudible] as critic of the societal issues? >> james baldwin. >> if you're on a cell phone make sure to talk right into it, don't use the speaker, we want to make sure we hear you clearly. james baldwin. >> i'm afraid that i do not have any good comments on that one. i would -- i would encourage reading some of the volumes out there on literature but i know there's an important social critic there and even as we are talking about this -- the relationships between different communities and races, so i think it's a very important

question now but i don't feel like i have the confidence to talk about it. >> mary in pennsylvania. hi, mary. >> hi, thank you for taking my call, i have eight children and we are a blended family of christians and jew and i was wonder where you focus on the family, relationship between husband and wife and children in the family system, i was wonder if it's all individualallism and declaration of dependence -- >> thank you, mary. >> to familihood. >> yeah, that's an important issue. here at museum of the bible we are touching on it some and not touching on other areas. where we are touching is the importance of the civil relationships and constructive relationships between different faith traditions. you mentioned jews and

christians as well as people from, you know, different cultural backgrounds, we feel -- and part of exhibits is to demonstrate how the bible can be part of that discussion and can lead to harmony as much as the bible has been part of disharmony in the past. so i think that we are able to touch some on that. when it comes to the families specifically, we -- we chose to use an exhibit about the bible's influence on families specifically to talk about how the bibles had a different influence on the way families relate together in different -- in different, you know, faith traditions as well as areas from around the world whether it'd be ireland and india and, you know, here in america, and so -- we show a little bit of blend there, but the point that you make is really important and we felt like that if you had a much bigger museum maybe you can get to it, unfortunately we are not

able to go in-depth on how to inform husbands relate to wives and so on, unfortunately, maybe in the future. >> eight floors, 430,000 square feet, 2840 items, it would take nine days, eight hours a day to tour the entire museum. orlando is calling from alabama and he's in valley alabama, hi, orlando. >> yes, sir, i was wanting to know why the catholic church changed sabaath day from saturday to sunday because it started on jewish holiday. the christians followed that and jesus when he made the covenant, a covenant can't be broken after the first that makes covenant was dead and he worshiped on

saturday and all his apostles did until the day he died, his disciples and even after his death they wouldn't take care of the body on the seventh day and paul went back and preached three times on the seventh day to the -- to the italians that were in some of the places that -- where it was established, so all the churches up until about 150 or 20 years ago and changed sabaath day to sad until the day of the sun sunday because they were worshipers in rome. >> orlando, we got the point. zeth. >> orlando says, clearly the early christians were all jews. the christians were a branch off of judaism. at the time judaism had a fair number of different groups and the followers of jesus became one of those different groups. jesus and his followers would

have observed, you know, sabaath within jewish context, by the time we see the book of revelation, we see worship on what they call the lord's day, celebrating this memory of a resurrection and so i'm not sure i know the details as we say but i believe it's pretty early. >> we are on the second floor of the museum of the bible, this is the impact floor, we are talking about literature in the bible, well, one of the biggest impacts of the bible is on early america and our companion network american history tv has taken a tour, fuller tour of the bible museum, we want to show you a little bit of their tour when it comes to the bible in early america.

>> this is one of my favorite cases in the exhibition. i often asked what's your favorite artifact and it's really not fair because we have so many cool things here to look at but one of the things i want to talk about is that one when colonists came to new world, they were not allowed to print bibles in english language, the crown held the rights to english text, all the bibles, geneva bible, the catholic bibles would come from -- from europe, from the crown, if you will. we declared independence in 1776, the import of products from -- from london ceased and so brought to congress' attention that we had a lack of english bibles and so one of the colonial printers by the name of robert akon presented the idea

to produce an english text here in america, so first in 1777 he would produce an english new testament which is new testament from king james' bible, basically make robert aitken an outlaw if you will, or outlaw printer. only two of the first english new testaments printed in america in existence, one after the new york library or you can come to the museum of the bible and see this one here. in 1782 robert aitken would present an entire bible and the bible reviewed from the chaplains in congress and passed on from congress to congress itself and reviewed in which they gave robert aitken permission to print this bible. this would be the first complete english bible ever printed in america, the only bible to receive congressional authorization to be printed by

robert aitken knowing that the crown held rights to english text he included the congressional authorization in each and every one of his bibles therefore as united states citizen at the time knowing that it was forbidden to own a bible not produced by the crown, you can now see that your government has allowed you to be able to own this particular bible. and so not only did he include that in the text but we've also included the original congressional authorization showing that congress did, indeed, word for word that robert aitken included into his text. one of the other things that i find amusing about the bible, aitken bible is in the front page he tells you how to find him. it's three doors down above the coffee shop and so to me apparently there was only one starbucks at the time and in philadelphia, but i just find that amusing, you will find coffee shop you will find print shop of robert aitken.

you will see the name of charles thompson. to me he's one of america's unsung heros, very first secretary of continental congress and signs authorization fb robert aitken to print the bible. he himself would produce the first english bible translated in america from the greek and this would make charles thompson not only the first secretary of the continental congress but also was the signatory that showed the authorization of john hancock's signature in declaration of independence. pretty interesting fellow he was. >> that's a little bit about the bible in early america, that's part of an american history tv

tour of the bible museum. you can watch that online in its entirety at c-span.org. ze, the h -- zeth is with us in second floor of the museum and we want to continue the conversation about education and the bible and its use in schools, universities, christian colleges, et cetera. >> great. >> how has it been used? >> yeah, certainly outside of the united states but also in the united states, we had mentioned on our display, we have martin luther and -- even back in this 1500's there's this effort to establish, you knowinger christian schools for the purpose of they want people to be able to read the bible and so, again, this is a case where the bible motivates education, we talked the mcguffey reader,

education motivates opportunity to have people read the bible as well, both things happening, so that, you know, that's been happening for quite a while. we mentioned with luther in germany, here in the united states we see this in many communities, i mean, as the jews in america set up schools, the tora, the books of moses are a great motivation. this book communicates identity and shapes identity and sense of who they are as community, so we see that also with, you know, the african americans, using the bible as part of book in setting up schools early on and we see that with protestants and we see with catholics, later onto as we have greater immigrations of muslims, they are going to use

the quran as well. so throughout all of the different communities we see how these important writings, sacred writings are instructive and they want to put sort of at the center of their education. >> now, with earlier american education we saw a look at the bible being printed here in america. was the bible often the only book in a house? >> well, i think maybe it would be the most common book, you know, because of -- because how many times it was printed. i think you would see other books, certainly as time gets on longer and more books are printed, i don't know that i'm aware of studies of what would be the most common books and when did they appear, yeah, books like uncle tom's cabin, for example, that -- you know, over a hundred thousand copies sold fairly quickly so i think you will see other books. the bible is certainly not the exclusive book. it just happens to be one the

most common books and fuels other interests. you mentioned uncle tom's cabin, you have influences of bible on that, sort of an easy one to grab, but i think there's often times associations but certainly see other books. >> and next up we will move into the science and the bible literature section, but let's hear from james in danville, virginia first, hi, james. >> hi, how are you doing? i was just curious with all the different publications of variations of the bible that have been printed over the years, do any of them refer to the church other than the church of christ or church of god or their geographic origin? and i thank you for letting me call in. >> why do you ask that question, james? >> i've just never found any church other than those in the bible and there are so many within the world, i just was curious of how -- if their

interpretations and new changes things? >> thank you, sir. >> well, church often times is a term about a community or a gathering of people that would believe similarly. you mentioned church of jesus christ, early on you have distinctions between the community, the west has this, you know, with the east, eastern church and western church, they developed their own distinct traditions in many ways and practices, you know, and protestant church later on is going to split off with the west and have many denominations as well. i'm not sure if i'm hitting on your point exactly but it differently will get into very important distinctions that reflect in at least subtle or quite a bit different senses of identities between these communities as time goes on. >> back to literature in the

bible, robert, 1961, stranger in a strange land, this is science fiction, isn't it? >> it is. it is. you know, the bible has been so influential, you know, across genres, different genres can appeal here. we highlight the title, stranger in strange line, speaking about moses who is in the land of midian, he runs away from egypt and, you know, is running for his life after -- after he's killed an egyptian and in this sense, he's able to pull that, stranger in strange land idea and comparing comparing this ane science fiction of this, trip to mars and survivors coming back to world that's post world war iii and the world is looking

totally different as he comes back to it, so great -- another great example you mentioned here of how people can evoke the bible for, you know, sort of an ancient idea or expression but hold into a contemporary age and able to make something new with it. >> zeth, ph.d from southern baptist theological seminary, biblical interpretation, where is it located? >> right outside of raleigh, north carolina. >> master's from masters college where? >> southern california, los angeles area. >> are you a pastor? >> no, i have not been a poster -- pastor but definitely enjoy the environment of a museum where it can be a very collegial civil discussion as to how we understand history and it's been a great environment. >> paul in king, north carolina, good afternoon. >> yeah, good afternoon, guys,

thanks for having me ask the question. >> and what is the question, paul? >> okay, the question is in this museum, do they have -- excuse me, any kind of history of how our bible come to us like the four gospels, matthew, mark, luke and john were actually written after these apostles had died and if the bible -- if the museum has a section on the counsel in compiling the bible at the time and all the archaeological finds that have been discovered recently that show at the beginning of christianity and the first and second century that there were

books that used to be in the bible, but they ban those bibles and called those people who read those bibles apostates, do you have a history section like that in the museum? >> thank you, sir. >> thank you, paul. we do to an extent. these are very complicated topics full of a lot of different historical theories that even some of the things you mentioned are in discussion but -- but, you know, debatable of what is evidence and what does the evidence point to. are -- the museum really exists to introduce topics and factors involved so, for example, we feature, you know, manuscripts that demonstrate as you mentioned the four gospels that are often times traveling with each other, we have a manuscript

that shows the luke ending and john beginning, at the same time we have a replica of gospel of mary, in that time period many writings circulating and some writings are being shared among different communities and so there's a lot of factors involved as far as how many communities are reading it, are they reading it as scripture, are they reading as encouragement and even in some of the descriptions you gave, there's a lot of complications to it, so we try to get to introduction to it but these are deeply debated issues, thank you for the question. >> anthony tweets in, what part of bible comes from an oral tradition and what part is transcription of written source? >> yeah, and i believe that was anthony, it's a very complicated topic. i mean, you know, in the early societies, again, there's literacy is extremely low and it's an oral -- oral tradition,

you know, societies throughouts middle east so they are passing traditions along from, you know, through generations and they have systems of memorizing those and that memorization is not the way we think of it. you almost have to -- you have to learn about how this oral society develops, we see similar stories like the flood story, the one that we read about with noah and the arc and the bible, sounds a little different but there's a lot of similarities as that similar type of story is passing through, the epic and so on and so on and even how the bible was understood by the hebrew people and how we understand it today and looking back and understand how the bible was formed. >> bible museum is located just

off the mall in washington, d.c., very close to the capital, it's open 7 days a week, next call is joe in laredo, texas, hi, joe. >> hi, good morning. the previous caller almost stole my question which is i'd like for you to comment on the inclusion and then the exclusion of angels in the bible and i'm hanging up so i can hear you through the tv. >> angels in the bible. >> yeah, the hebrew bible has had, you know, this early idea of angels throughout literature and christian literature as well would have continued that tradition. i mean, you know, during the second temple time period of jewish writings you had this development of apock --

apocalyptic and dimension and that will tie into later on with the questions about how that relates to sort of a messianic tradition. i think that the actual angels, demons, that was probably a regular concept but did develop a bit more in the second temple period and, you know, continues to be a fascinating topic today. again, tieing back to literature, it's an area where we don't necessarily see so it's fruitful for imagination and even we were talking a little bit about the craigings -- writings and a lot of writings are attempting to fill a lot of gaps and understanding, again, the oral culture, there's a lot of stories being told and so the writings bringing together different -- different ways of understanding how angels and --

and sort of god agents, agents of the devil are interacting with human history so a lot of potential for literature there. >> another book we we wanted to talk about was katherine anne porter's hail horse, writer fiction book, what is this? >> yeah, good question u so porter in her title pail horse, pail rider is referring to revelation chapter 6 verse 8 where it says, i looked and behold a pail horse and his name that sat on him was death and they were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famon and plague. she's pulling in this title to give sort of an expression to the catastrophes after world war i with the problems with influenza and pandemics that --

that as they look around after world war i they are seeing this devastation, so for her she was able to refer to revelation 6-8, again, when you refer to a title like that, some people can say, well, is she thinking that literally or is she sort of using that as a symbol and that's the beauty of intertext, each reader brings interests and background, you know, to their own understanding of the bible and this loads in often times extra interactive dimension to how readers are picking up even on our title. >> you have a display with isaac newton, the principia, what is that? >> good question. .. ..

>> prince by ya for him was a volue where he wants to express some of his key ideas that turn it into modern physics; theory of gravity and, you know, a number of different elements that are involved with it. but for him, he saw this volume as an opportunity to demonstrate how his view of god's order, you know, that he read about in the bible was consistent with the science that he was seeing. so this book, you know, has been very important through scientific discussion ever since. >> host: and galileo, here's a quote from the astronomer: the bible tells us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go.

>> guest: yeah. galileo, of course, was caught up in a dispute, you know, on trial with the catholic church. >> host: you wouldn't think of him necessarily as somebody who was scholarred in the bible. >> guest: yeah. and i -- and in this case, you know, i don't think they necessarily meant to be a scholar in the bible as much as they were, you know, well-versed in the bible because that was such a part of their culture. you know, in our own day maybe the bible's less part of the culture, but that was not the same experience they had. and for him, arguably, much of this trial was based on politics, you know? but one of the -- and how were his ideas potentially challenging to, you know, the larger church structure that he was a part of. of course we talk about the american and the, you know, our separation of church and state. well, that's a time when the church and state are are, you know, put together, and that's the ruling body.

but for galileo, i think parking lot of his pushback was, you know, the bible may teach us about religion, but does that mean that it needs to be the source of authority on science. and so that's, you know, that's been a deeply debatable and very interesting question certainly discussed ever since. >> host: jeannie, norfolk, virginia. hi, jeannie. >> caller: hi. i have a question to mr. pollinger. do you believe in the rapture of the church before the antichrist comes? i do not. >> guest: yeah, jeannie, thanks for the question. you know, this is another topic that's greatly debated among different groups. you know, one of the reasons even tying it back to our goal here, one of the reasons why the bible is so ripe for expressions in literature is the bible is

not necessarily always clear, you know, of exactly what it's expressing. sometimes you have different writers that have, just like in modern day writers, you know, they have different points of emphasis, different ways of expressing things. certainly many would agree that the bible disagrees with itself. and so, you know, we read about this from some of the writings that are a2reub9ed to paul when it comes to the rapture, some will point to the book of revelation. but this is an area where there's different expressions, and, you know, and it will be debated as long as time goes on. and so for myself, it's not an area where, that i have a lot of personal commitment to as much as sort of interest in following where the discussion goes. >> host: and this text from deb says that the bible is majestically vague, like the constitution. both written by men and inspired by the divine, interpreted and

understood by the same number of people whoever cracked it open and bothered to read even one sentence. do you have any comment for her? >> guest: well, i think deb is eloquent. [laughter] you know, the constitution is a reality that is important for our nation that we continue to discuss. and we have to sometimes have the supreme court make judgments on how is it that we are applying that now. well, very similar to, you know, to this, you know, the jewish bible, the christian bible, i mean, it's, it's astonishing. and i think that's part of the amazing reality here, is you have a book that was written a really long time ago. and you look at its continuity throughout history of people interacting in different ways within their own setting just like we have to interpret the constitution now into our own, you know, internal disputes in our own, let's say american community. that's exactly what's happened

with the bible, with people saying how does this influence our own sense of identity, how does it shape ethics, how does it shape morals. so i think the constitution is actually a very good comparison of the challenge of interpretation within additional communities as time goes on. >> host: we're talking about literature and the bible today on booktv, and danny's calling in from yorba linda, california. go ahead, danny. >> caller: hi, guys, great show. fascinating museum. i'll try to get it to one day. my question is more of a general question for seth. in starting this museum, did you find challenges in managing bias for what would be included in the museum and what would not be included in the museum? and maybe more down to a specific level, i have a number of friends who have yes love v.a. witnesses, and -- jehovah witnesses, and they have a slightly different translation

of the new testament partly inspired by charles russell. but you have a number of prevalent denominations of the protestant religion that may have had influence from alan white or joseph smith. and were those reconciled into the museum's presentations? and, again, just managing bias i think from a general perspective, that must have been very tough. >> guest: yeah, danny, managing bias is always difficult. and with the bible, it's extremely difficult. because, again, as you look at the bible, great geographic spread, great historic continuity of use, but there's also discontinue -- discontinuity of use with different peoples. what we try to do as a museum was to be more distribute i rather than prescriptive. rather than building a message based on one person's bias to

describe how people have had different approaches to the bible throughout all kinds of places and times. that's really what this impact board is dedicated to. the challenge is always to be aware of it, to recognize it, to acknowledge it, and to true and control it in the sense of you know what you're doing with it. so when it comes to the jehovah's witness, we try to stay within our limits, we look at the spread of this jewish and christian bible throughout the world and different times. is so we do have a new world translation, talk a little bit about the history of that. but we've put this in the context of this is really sort of an expansion of this sort of, you know, traditional book we call the bible, very simplistic to say "the bible," but we do try to put the jehovah's witness version into that stream of history. >> host: do you have a team of

biblical or literature consultants to help put this display together? >> guest: yeah, great question. we do. so really throughout each of the exhibits -- we have well over 60 different scholars that we involve in different places. again, what i didn't tell danny was the key is balance. but if you're going to have a balance, if you're going to have a museum that's dedicated to the bible that is used by the different peoples, we -- it's very important to have catholic scholars, to have eastern christian scholars, protestant scholars, to have those that are both critical and those that are confessional. because this is the experience of the bible among different communities as well as jewish scholars. and so you have the diversity of people involved, but then you also have the diversity of topics. on this floor we have 23 pavilions, we have, you know, three different scholars that particularly helped with this pavilion, with literature. while i know very little, you know, they knew a lot and helped to shape it.

but then we have a totally different group for ban and burn than we mentioned, than we do for government, than we do for human rights, american history for each of the periods. so to do that well, it took about 60, often times up to 100 to have deep involvement constantly. >> host: you did mention the bible and government exhibit, and we want to tie that into literature. we want to begin with a quote from another president up on the wall here, president truman. the fundamental basis of this nation's law was given to moses on the mount. the fundamental basis of our bill of rights comes from the teachings that we get from exodus and st. matthew, from isaiah and st. paul. >> guest: yeah. clearly, you know, a lot of leaders -- whether in the judicial system or political system -- have drawn on the bible. i mean, in several ways. sometimes they're looking to the bible as an inspiration, you know, for why they would say

what they would say. other times they're going to be appealing to the bible to justify the positions they already had. so because the bible has been sort of a cultural heavyweight with oftentimeses authority in the minds of the populace, leaders will often times try to use it, exploit it, whatever may be to defend their positions. again, you know, an important idea to realize is the bible's used for liberation as well as oppression. >> host: another book we want to talk about is lois lowery's "number the stars," this is from 1989. what's the topic of the book, what's the tie-in to the bible. >> guest: yeah. the topic of the book, it's taking place during world war ii, and they're discussing how the danes were helping thousands of jews escape sweden. the title, "number the stars," comes from psalm 147, verse 4,

which says he tells the number of the stars, he calls them by their names. of course, this is sort of entendre with referring to god knowing the stars and sort of the association with the star of david, you know, in later times after the psalms. but yet at the same time, god knowing, you know, the stars and calling them all by names. so there's sort of this dual meaning there that i think, you know, lowery was able to sort of appeal to that would have had special significance for jews as well as referring back to the sacred writing of the psalms. so later on it goes into this great excitement of the theme of rescue, you know? and certainly during world war ii there's this great struggle of how can a god care, you know, and yet have all this suffering, and where is this going to go. and so the jews especially are

going to be wrestling through how is it that we understand our writings and keep our hope. >> host: steve's in housefield, michigan. hi, steve. >> caller: how you doing today? quick question for -- three questions. i seen the video, and i was wondering can you provide commentary on the crown? the commentator was saying something regarding the crown as though england had copyright rights to the bible. secondly, was the first english bible, was it -- did it have the apock rafah? and have you did any, performed by go gee sis on the serpent seed as literature? not regarding religion with the different denominations, but just from a literary perspective, the serpent's seed and genesis 3:15.

>> host: all right. well, a couple of callers -- and it's been a while, but a couple of callers early on asked about the apock rafah, why are people interested in this? >> guest: the museum has featured and is looking for more meaningful way to describe, because these books, there's an additional set of books that are included in the bible that the catholic church reads, that most eastern christians read. sometimes these books are the same, sometimes there's a couple additional ones that vary a little bit between, between different peoples that are reading the bible today. protestants do not read what they would call the old testament apock cra thats, and

jews as well do not include it in their hebrew bible. but some of the christians pick up on these books that were included in the first translation of the hebrew bible into the greek language which we simplistically called -- [inaudible] again, a really sort of complex document. a little more complex than they go into right here. that aproblem rafah has been -- apocrypha has been included in some translations and not others. and we're mentioning a question just asked whether it was included in the first translations. well, i'm not sure that the first printing of it did include it here in america, but it certainly has been included in very common translations like the new revised standard version, the revised standard version before that. so you, you do have even in

america, certainly in england before that, a lot of people reading the apocrypha as part of their bible. so there's clearly a lot of different history of who included and who didn't include it, but that, you know, hopefully here at the museum we can fill out that story a little bit more. >> host: all right. he asked about copyright and the serpent's seed as well. >> guest: okay. yeah, so good. the last question was about the serpent's seed. you know, there's a number of different translations -- interpretations of what the significance of this, of sort of the punishment on the serpent or, you know, the seed of the woman and so on that are going to go, continue on. i'm not aware, because i'm not a literature professional myself, but i would believe that you would actually have probably picking up on that theme and

concept quite a bit in some of the different writings. unfortunately, i don't know which one specifically that is. >> host: steven in brooklyn, new york, what's your question or comment? >> caller: yes, thank you for taking my call. origin sin is summarized to be treason against god. we saw jesus christ executed as proof of that. it's clear to me that the bible has been a legal document, condensed human religion. how to you bridge or expose that fact in your museum? >> host: bible is legal document. >> guest: yeah. and i think you talked about the condemning human government. in particularly first samuel, you have, you know, samuel come, and the people are demanding a king, and samuel the prophet, you know, challenges that. and, you know, god acknowledges the people are demanding a king.

god acknowledges that people want a king, but that really wasn't part of god's plan. you know, it's, it's fascinating. people really look to the bible at different places to, you know, sort of establish their clear view of the way we should live life in many ways including doing government. we, you know, may get into it here shortly, but we do talk a little about some arguments that were made for why some, you know, why nations should have a monarchy for, you know, other people appeal to the bible to, you know, resist government. other people refer to the government more, you know, to argue for democracy. so i think that people have found in the bible different arguments that they've appealed to in different times. and because of that, it's very difficult to say that the bible has one position that everybody should follow. or when they have made that argument, it's, you know, it hasn't stuck for very long.

>> host: we haven't had this question yet, i expected it earlier, but what's your answer to the fiction/nonfiction aspect of the bible? >> guest: of the bible. you know, the bible even in recent decades, the question of the bible as literature has been a very, you know, large topic. is the bible fiction, is it nonfiction. you know, how do we read it as literature. and, you know, i think that it's been a huge, you know, the bible has served as a huge paradigm for reading it as a literal document, seeing it refer to, you know, literal history that's going to also look forward to the future for literal history and, for, you know, sort of prediction. and at the same time, you know, certainly in the rise of our critical age looking at the bible as, you know, sort of

evaluating it, comparing it with our understanding of history or our understanding of science, we've also had a big increase in the universities to look at the bible through that critical lens of, you know, sort of as fiction. so, you know, i think it's hard to really put one down and the other one up in the sense that they've both formed sort of a rich heritage of how people understand the bible. here at the museum what we're trying to do is help people, you know, see both sides and understanding that when you're looking at the bible's larger impact, both of those end up becoming an important part of the discussion. both now as well as where things go in the future. as far as what value can the bible bring to people. >> host: well, another quote that you have here at the museum, and this is from the narrative of frederick douglass. i am left in the hottest hell of unending slavery.

o god, save me. god, deliver me. let me be free. is there any god? and why am i a slave? >> guest: yeah. frederick douglass, i mean, was a powerful orator, and certainly you look at him for, to read through his writings, it's stirring. it really is. and i think part of what's challenging is, you know, he stands up with a great social critique in the south, and i mentioned earlier the bible often times has been used for oppression as well as liberty. i mean, he's living in a society where in the south oftentimes, you know, many of these folks are preachers that are saying that god has ordained, you know, slavery and appealing to

sections of the bible like with noah and this curse on ham and saying that, you know, god has cursed a people. and as they apply it to their own context as the white, you know, southerners that are benefiting from the persecution of other people. and so i think, you know, for douglass he had an important critique at his time of saying, you know, you use that argument, but is that really the heart of what the bible's trying to argue? isn't it -- what about the ideas of justice for all people? and so douglass is calling for justice and mercy in dispute to, you know, these ministers who at least the white culture is looking to them to be the representatives of what the bible's teaching. and so it's really a powerful example of how people at different times, while people

often times at the same time and the same place are appealing to the bible for different purposes. and it makes you sit back and scratch your head and say what do i really think. and we've found that with the museum of the bible it's, our whole goal is to invite all peoples to engage with the bible. engage being, you know, just sort of thinking about what do you do with this. and i think in that sense, douglass is a great example of, you know, trying to think through what is the bible really saying at a time like this when my people in the sense of the african-americans are being or persecuted. >> host: let's hear from angelo in north little rock, arkansas. good afternoon, angelo. >> caller: good afternoon. i really appreciate this chance to see this new museum in washington. the question, my question goes to understanding the bible, and i wonder if your museum goes into the political aspect

obviously the bible in the sense -- aspects of the bible in the sense why they were writing. it's, my focus is on the old testament. this museum go into the historical and political part of the old testament as a document to pull the jews together after they came back demoralized from the disasters when they left babylon? this was more like 600 b.c., by the king who put it together as a political document. see, this might get to your fiction/nonfiction. if you see this propaganda for different reasons by different emperors, it might explain a lot of the fiction/nonfiction aspects. >> host: thank you, sir. >> guest: yeah, it's a good question, and the truth is that according to evidence we have a lot of gaps in the record. there's a lot of things we just can't know. but there's a lot of ideas that

we can discuss. so, you know, the writings themselves will, you know, talk as if sort of, you know, contemporaneous history. until we get to the dead sea scrolls, we really don't find those writings, specific evidence. those are our earliest evidence for the writings, so we have to extrapolate back about what can we know, what can't we know. so it's complicated. and certainly, different people are going to have different ideas. you have jews that are going to take early dating in the hebrew bible as well as late dating. both of the new testament, early dating, late dating, also the old testament, so it's a very complicated topic. and i think what's important is that the museum can be a place where these things are discussed. but again, you know, you need,

you need open minds by all parties. sort of hear the arguments out as far as what's being presented here from an early history being written down to a late history being written down. but to your point, i think it is -- there is a lot of insights into thug through how did -- thinking through how did an exile shape the mind of these people. how did coming back from exile influence their desire to, you know, pull these writings together to collect them into a book. you know, that book will later be, in a sense, expanded on by the christians who are then going to be motivated to send it out through different regions in the world as their bible gets into north africa, it's going to start to take on different, different influences from, you know, from philosophical elements. and so it's just, i mean, just as global culture is really rich, people are very different. well, the story of the bible is very different through different times and different places.

there truly is no simple answer. but as a museum, we hope to be able to just give people an introduction into that. and these are topics that people, you know, go on and spend many, many years, you know, discussing, learning and even people that have been in the field 40 years still disagree about it. so it's a topic that won't ever stop, so i think there's something positive about that. >> host: here at the bible museum, there are bibles from presidents cleveland, truman, eisenhower, george w. bush and trump's inaugural bible was recently added to the collection. here's a quote from president jimmy carter on the wall here: each of us must rededicate ourselves to serving the common good, our individual fates are are linked, our futures intertwined. and if we act in that knowledge and in that spirit together, as the bible says, we can move mountains. now, before we run out of time, i want to make sure we bring up

two other books and two very famous american authors, maya angelou and william faulkner. what are the biblical ties to these two books? >> guest: yeah. for maya angelou, i mean, she was deeply steeped in the bible even from, you know, her younger years. it was a great source of inspiration, guidance. i mean, you know, truly a very important part of who she is. so i think what we try to do, we have a large interactive feature here where we allow some, or you know, some comparisons to specifically i know why the caged bird sings. we show in her writing a little connection to, you know, one of her quotes where she talks about, you know, she was exploring hope in the sense of wholeness. and, you know, expressing this through the idea of the kingdom come. and this, of course, isn't a,

is, you know, an allusion to jesus' prayer that he, that the gospels attribute to jesus, you know, to teach the disciples how to pray. you know, thy kingdom come, thy will be done. and she also in this work discusses how deuteronomy was her favorite book, and, you know, her effort to even memorize deuteronomy. and so when you have a book that that's significant to you, you know, those expressions come out in your writings, and so i think that's what we see with maya angelou. >> host: what about william faulkner, ab so lam? >> guest: great question. in this literature section, we have these many different volumes that use the bible as expressions from the bible in their titles. so it's a quote from second samuel 18:33 where david is

saying my son, my son, you know, at the time when action lam is being killed. so for faulkner, he's tying this association. you have king david, you have this rebellious son, you have this great turmoil and struggle over what do you do about your son that actually is trying, according to the story, is trying to pursue david's life of and take over, you know, take over the nation. and overthrow him absalom according to the story is pursuing david's life and trying to take over the nation and overthrow himself all are says the civil war era in the deep south where there is a great struggle over wealth and the conflicts between a father and son, larger time when it was

complicated and there's deception and twisted ethics and how do you get out of this and make sense of this? >> host: we are out of time, you direct executive content at the museum of the bible in washington dc. >> tonight, the new york times correspondent maggie hagerman talks about covering the trump white house. >> the relationship between this white house and the press is more and less then what you see of these press briefings, whether it is sean spicer or sarah sanders. they are combative and they have transitioned from what has always been a typically adversarial nature of the media covering government into something more openly hostile.

>> african-american lgbt q leaders talk about issues facing the communities including acceptance, and civic engagement. >> we talked about running for office but there is so much political work that has to happen beyond those things. david was saying just as we have been here, policy is moving to prevent queer people from being parents, from adopting children and fostering children. it is better for a child to stay in the system then hidden for bid two queer people adopting them. we will not change that by voting. we have to be paying attention all the time. they have got to be hearing from us all the time. >> watch on c-span, c-span.org and listen on the free c-span radio apps. >> the c-span bus has arrived by boat in hawaii for the 49th stop

of our 50 capitals tour on the island of oahu visiting honolulu with the help of our spectrum partners. >> we are glad to be here in hawaii. we can share the history and culture, this is a great opportunity for people across the nation, welcome and aloha. >> warm welcome to the cable satellite public affairs network better known as c-span and its impressive bus that is going all over our nation. in hawaii i know c-span will enjoy the beauty, the sunshine and the a low heart of the 50th state. i'm sure c-span will witness and feel the aloha spirit as the bus embarks on its discovery of hawaii on its 50 capitals tour. therefore, the governor and lieutenant governor of the state

of hawaii hereby proclaim august 15th through the 22nd, 2018, the we can hawaii. c-span week. >> visit more during hawaii weekend on october 6th and seventh on c-span, c-span.org or listen on the free c-span radio apps. >> seth masket directs the center on american politics. he talks about how political parties respond to losing at the polls with a focus on democratic reaction to losing the 2016 presidential election. the us capital historical society in washington dc hosted this event. it is an hour.