recommend to your fellow members of congress or any books you turn to? >> my favorite of all time is great expectations. i love great expectations. i think i've read it three times. i love everything about it. it's just one of my personal favorites. but i am as i mentioned before, >> c you the white city was a fascinating read and i enjoyed it quite a bit.e kenne .. teddy? >> so in the

>> and one of which back when it came out. with that event e-mail list. going back to back events to suggest tomorrow night just in time for father's day for his book of essays.

and that would make excellent if you don't know what to get your dad or brother or husband and/or friend. without further a do our guest this evening from the science fiction author activist and journalist the coeditor and author of many, many books. and others. speeseventeen. >> hello there.

i think we are live. just giving us a picture of your book. i wrote an essay. [laughter] five years ago i wrote an essay that i had written i had written this book on death it did really well and i discovered if you write something offbeat the world will conspire to make sure that you never do that again. they will make you say the same thing if you write the same book or give the same talk over and over for the rest of your life.

every idea that nobody would ever publish. a lot of those died of merciful death may have forgotten them but this one took off. and as far as a profession i'm not used to this i don't come from that kind of background. even a professional managerial class. that is based on the idea that just not know what is going on. that people who come from there don't see. and when you ask them what they do they would say nothing really.

but then you realize they meant that literally they do nothing all day. but basically they can do that half an hour a a day or two hours a week. so how common is this?? it is an essay that says it is amazing while we are not all working a 15 hour week so with that mechanization so with those jobs at the time except instead made up from completely imaginary dummy jobs.

so anything you say and that thought experiment in like crazy. had no idea this would happen. and i was i was getting thousands of e-mails. and then newspapers and writing confessions and people say things oh my god it's true. i am a corporate lawyer nobody knows.

and 37% of all 37% of all people who have jobs one that should exist to contribute nothing. and make a difference whatsoever to make the world a slightly better place. this is interesting. and then to do research and i just went out and said if that was pointless tell me all about it.

so i did that. >> this is a nice thing with all of this great insight but then something about capitalism itself. and i know those i know those who are true believers. what were they say if i i gave them a copy of this book? and that this is an agent

problem? and that the buying agents not even take so much as a glass of water from the salespeople you work for me and the minute you owed them a favor you work for yourself that will be an advantage. and then to create fees. just like those powerbrokers and within the company. and to make a distinction that

comes from the stories and based on those testimonies that i got there are five basic kinds of monkeys and box tapirs and gas masters and some of those know what they might be but basically those that don't actually do anything. are those who is one call a day. or hire someone for an academic job or a dean or a provost but then you decide but then the

boss does that job. but in that category with a telemarketer. a lot of those guys what they said it was a bull should bull should not but i don't do anything that the entire industry is full ship. and with these corporate lawyers. and there would be no need for corporate lawyers. my wife would be naming someone

from the family he walked out of a job doing nothing but connecting with other people from other firms they call them doubleheaders that they all had amazing hair with these red trousers and they would just talk to each other on behalf of those so the dock tapirs they fix the problem that should within those organizations often they only remain on the job or they become flunkies and then it is just like moving the bucket around. and one university i was at.

and there is a big with a a hole in the wall and it took weeks. there was an entire job. but that was because the carpenter was too busy to come. [laughter] so perfectly suited to the job can't he hire a second a second carpenter? that would be a good example box tape allowing organizations. and with those targets.

and suddenly and figuring out that optimal allocation of our time. and a lot of jobs are another factor. so that takes up more and more of time. >> and to supervise people. i like that explanation so much that it explains why you never fire people in the bullshit job

it with an empire but the real people are the only people that matter in the company. >> what we find is there the better. and for all the people they can lay off. but those are guys that are doing work. those are the bullshit guys. you fire the drivers or the people doing something. and cut down their numbers and feed them up and make their life a living hell. but in the office they are doing absolutely nothing they will never get fired. and as a badge of honor.

but one of those interesting insights that emerges from this is that people are miserable doing bullshit jobs. putting on my mind and -- ayn rand masturbator hat. [laughter] that there is a theory that a theory that every person has their own proclivity to capitalism. and maybe the problem isn't that it makes you miserable but those

were doing that work have not found those jobs yet. and with that phenomenon in british culture. and with any quantum of authority. but maybe those people who delight to sit alert at the counter all day. >> it's possible i suppose. but very early utopian writer to have this idea we can solve the problem the kind of people and then to do the dirty jobs.

i suppose but why you need to do that at all? you can make much more interesting and stupid games and just to allocate jobs there is no way given that choice to do whatever they want would end up he put in another box but even those doing precise things. >> you talked a lot about work ethic and you talk about taking away their jobs. and with that philosophy he

trained in economics. basically all trying to maximize our utility with the maximum benefits with the least amount of expenditure. so by that logic if you have a job where you're paid money you should be delighted. this is great. and actually on the one hand. and listing with illnesses.

and with all this teamwork and conrad reap. [inaudible] but then the additional element that they cannot justify it themselves that they should be happy but then they complain. i'm so happy and then you are complaining that they do nothing so there is this question where this all comes from. and then you go back to antiquity. at the end of the journeyman system. and put them to work and so on.

and it is harkening back to the earlier days. and with that course of human thought. >> managerial feudalism. maybe i'm being simplistic but when i was in college they taught me feudalism is extraction based on getting your profits whereas it operates through the government which is why the idea of the economy develops late 500 years ago they never heard of the congo.

so now we have a situation where most profits on wall street are from finance. financial firms or financial breaches of manufacturing like general electric or gm so if that's the case and with that huge pile of loot distributing the goods. and then you look at those flunkies. and there is another threat and parity.

>> the improvisation of capitalism. >> and with that said and realization that critique and socialism in general with those utopian ideals and if you accept human nature and if you are utopian that people should be like this and tell them how they are supposed to behave and then they put them in the gulags. and that is a big breakthrough and i i was reading the statistics.

2% with the fees and penalties. with any of those individuals to balance their checkbook and so it is exactly that. with that irrational economic actor should be like. and then they punish you in the gulags. that is not only a basis of a basis of capitalism but also capitalist profits. but they get most of those prophets from attending human nature will punish for living up to that. >> i like i like the way that you describe in the bullshit

jobs because they would have to stay in long line. it only sells one kind of goods. and the benefit forms. in the same 1,000 skus. we fell out way more forms but somebody figured out the average american spends six months of their life waiting for the lights to change. that is a disturbing thought. nobody ever figured out the statistics of how long we fill out forms. like the internet and all the

time. and i think more than any population in history. so that has invaded our lives. >> and in soviet union they know full employment is sitting in a room doing nothing all day. and that is what socialism is supposed to be like and to buy that loaf of bread. it isn't unnecessarily elaborate.

when talking about why they don't basically but single-payer that is more efficient. to get rid of redundancy with one or two or 3 million people working for kaiser. that is like a smoking gun. they market those systems and then to create useless blue-collar jobs. because no one wants to talk

about this. but i i will tell you now. and from that crypto marxist talking about that every board should look like this but with these big ideas without people's republic of walmart in resisting this debate whether you can compute and economy? you have a socialist figuring out where to allocate the goods with that computational program you need a calculator. and those institutions.

but to have the internal economy larger than the budget amazon pentagon and walmart. and basically saying it is in our grass but what you are saying that you are soaking in it. and all around us. but if we think about all those people that derivative trading and they can come up with alternatives if they put their minds to it all the people and

then they make them do really stupid stuff so we don't get there because they are afraid of the future. >> that is literary true. >> like those trader types one is a cambridge a cambridge physicist one is oxford. [laughter] and the liquidity provision. but did so in a way that they were putting in these orders for shares. and the reason there is another group of physicists somewhere in the world to check to see if they buy them. and most useless work they could imagine.

but the most interesting thing in that state education to that tertiary education and with those chatterbox for trade. and in st. petersburg and there are three of him with those mathematicians. and then doing software for walmart. and the wall street derivatives.

>> and looking at what they could have done. and those that could cure your cancer. this is the end of the book and just skipping to that i come out with universal basic income and one of the arguments that i make is that one of the objections figuring out what you want to do with your life that people are lazy and don't want to work we know that's not true if they just give people the money likely will be bad poets and

then we just described youtube. but that is interesting because that is what they do when they are pretending to work. >> so we have that. how will that be any worse than it is now? and further if they do they will be happier than highlighting forms all day. and going into perpetual motion

and with that happy return on that investment. so that idea universal basic instinct and that goes something like this every benefit we fought very hard for. if you roll them all up and those that they are entitled to. if you take people out of work and you diminish the power of the union movement and labor can swing to the right but those that don't have that concentrated block of people and never come back. >> those are different versions

that would be very true of elon musk. so the criticism. >> okay. but you are not really substituting very much so that is what has already been eroded. not to say you are not getting free healthcare. so that left-wing version is way a way of expanding where the right-wing version contracts that so what you are really doing is getting rid of that giant bureaucracy of conditionality and people have shown any conditionality with government benefits then 20% of

the people for those that are entitled. and in the u.k. those are the formulas but the bullshit jobs in the private sector are there to make rich people feel good about themselves that bullshit jobs in the public sector make poor people feel bad about themselves and there are armies of people to say are you really looking hard enough for work? all that kind of stuff. it is the left wing anti- bureaucratic program. so then they judge if you are

good enough to get something. >> but no funeral benefits. >> but then they say those guys to see if you have those forms of id how can they live with themselves? often they can't and then that perpetual motion device. [laughter] so there is that but the inflation all the benefits are already fixed but with universal fixed income then you can take as much time as you want off of your job.

and looking at this formula and to make the better that creates new problems that can only be resolved and more radical than before. and with that demand that empowers people. and the problem workers have they are dependent on their wall street livelihood is much more work to situation and if they say i could quit at any time and nothing happens to them. >> so now we come up to q&a so to close this out, there are lots of books adopted from the

ted talk or essay but this feels like a book a book you have given a lot of thought to and i wonder you wrote this essay and it is good successful work and with this particular project. and a couple weeks ago. >> is this in england with bullshit jobs? and when i go home to sell on the four-day week so i am part

of that party. those are working inside and outside the system but in particular the bullshit jobs. and i and interested in the classes this is a concept throughout the book coming to my experience of occupy. those that are too busy working in the occupation and at one point i spent two days every single testimony and that carrying factor. and social services to take care of people one way or another.

and then the more benefits the less they pay you but if you have a job the media to help people a little you be so in debt and miserable you cannot take care of her family so there is the outrage. and it is the opposite. and at the same time and with that productivity is down and in that place we all know about.

and in the u.k. professor strikes. and this has never happened before. and then the working classes the caring class. with that patriarchal idea. most workers are maintaining or taking care of things. so if we imagine. if we imagine value around caring there is some idea in the back of their mind and if that

was a a complement to carrying. and with production and consumption. that augments another person's freedom. because that exercise and then you think of a mother and child but in the more immediate sense and you take that as a basic paradigm for value? and if we do so with this his conception of what's important by society and once the drudgery for production is usually automated will work on that.

[applause] >> our question is a brief a brief sentence that goes up at the end. >> so it is to me but i heard a

debate talk about guaranteed federal jobs it is better to have a guaranteed job that people can go to if they need to work it is given to everyone like the coke brothers. and if that isn't needed big objection was inflation. >> there is a lot of different point you are making but the basic argument is to get the automatic universal income or do you have a program with everybody gets a job.

and those that can exploit but the difference is ultimately sensibility and the people who go for the guaranteed job are not trying to get rid of the idea that you need to work. and to say that they will be maintaining that bureaucracy. and then to create human freedom. and then on top of that basic income that would be great that you are not going the full length.

and then decide then decide how we want to contribute that is especially true of carrying labor. and then come out of feminism. and then if you were serious. but what time we really want measuring how many hours and taking care of the baby. but that would be gone. so the question is is it inflationary? that depends on your theory of money.

but yes. the same amount of services. that's. that's not how it works. and then once you have for all employment or collapse basically there is a lot of debate about this. and you have certain controls like on rent. but the problem with the guaranteed jobs with that moral transformation or else you are not deserving. with that inflation question. and with that esoteric argument.

>> i have a question and in the corporate world what about the nonprofit sector? and then to help out. and with those welfare benefits but and with that sector. [inaudible] >> but my feeling is anybody i know.

anybody who talks about that. and then pretty much equally across the board. because it is under so much more pressure. but i did hear a lot. that is where we get the worst accumulation with the ngos that are in there but the anarchist collectives but that necessary process unless you self-consciously but then if you have those bullshit jobs.

but to be honest and to span the civil war so we got to live under that organization and he told me there was a very simple solution with the collective audience. and simply got rid of all the white-collar workers. the most of them make you feel bad about yourself. and give a hard time. but and then they do some real work but generally speaking but

with those full-time positions that collective is balance job complex to divide up the different types of works so the problem wouldn't really come up so then you try to keep it to a minimum. >> so in terms of bullshit jobs in the private sector course these charities are filled with people from finance they know how to raise money. deciding that the red cross major priority nobody uses that trademark. they would shake down videogame makers if they all had a a red cross on them.

>> i use that as an example that is the badge of confidence if anybody has run anything has to be trained in economics. >> can you not tell me what happened and the major long-term one were extremely successful. the one they did in finland what they are is supplements with long-term unemployment but it is not unconditional at all. but to largely be in relatively poor countries and that they

didn't even really expect. and then to have that strong gender effect but often people pool that certain percentage but and in a pool. and with these endless development projects try to be democratic participatory.

then the people you say in a post office. >> talk about the bullshit jobs with the corporations but like the crypto currency to decentralize everything and to use something like that and to

highlight it is about crypto currency. and to eliminate bullshit 50% of all questions about crypto currency or nonconsensual. and just like a cryptographer. but i will refer you but was that a good idea? and then to blossom you do that now. and because i'm not a crypto a crypto currency probe person but if you were and that is what i

would look at as a marginal revolution. and to admire how reasonable he makes it sound. >> and to make the best case. it also hl mencken makes those most ridiculous stupid case possible. >> now it's just a talking stick. but what we are reading gently suddenly with a brave new world

and doing massive numbers of jobs currently. and those with soft driving trucks how are they incorporated to the economy?? are they given bullshit jobs? unemployment or dog food? mac okay i find it really fascinating everybody feels the prospect of the illumination drudgery is now a problem. but the most standard answer is they have been telling us it

could suck in a million ways but efficiency and to have a at most efficient way possible. so okay. now all of a sudden we are told what will we do? this is what people are dreaming for centuries. with that economic system that only the necessary thingsne.

yes, sir, sorry. >> can you hear me? change of focus. you described the hierarchy of the kennedy brothers. what was theirat