limit others' lives. we want to feel we're tree to be and do anything we choose. sometimes we become so attached to this heady narrative that we'll throw our true allies and even ourselves under the bus. it's frighteningly easy to empathize with those who abuse their power. evident in the fact that time's 2017 person of the year was the silence breakers ors all the women whod that come forward about being sexually assaulted or harassed. the run-up for the honor? president trump. what better evidence of how we're wrestling with what power means and where it resides. >> you can watch this and other programs online at booktv.org. ..

>> we are here tonight to learn about this great book, tinderbox, ub told story of the upstairs lounge, i won't say much about it because our author will do that. we are a few days after that. in the last few days i talked to a few people to tell them about the event and they said they saw the fire, anybody in here, anybody in the room here who was either there or saw it at the time? you know, 45 years seems like a long time and it is but a time

that we can relate to. much has changed in 45 years. we will hear about that. 45 years ago the story was largely off the page and we have robert fleseler to thank for putting it on the page. ly step out of the way and let him, please give him a warm welcome. [applause] >> can you guys hear me all right? i'm the author of tinderbox, work of nonfiction, civil rights history of notoriously unsolved arson fire that took place at a gay bar a few blocks away, that direction, a few minutes away on the border of the famous french quarters, tinderbox is also a meditation on the consequences

closeted life in america by shared, i mean, set the stage for what happened here. the arson fire in upstairs lounge, claimed 32 lives on june 24, 1973, 45 years ago, no culprit was ever publicly named for the murders and 43 years in 2016 when an armed citizen named omar mateen, injured 53 in gay nightclub in orlando called plus, sudden i bygone and photos

went live and urgent stories appeared in news outlets such as "the new york times", the daily which altogether said the fire in new orleans, antecedent to orlando, another classic example, loan-wolf violence charging the lgbt community. recognized by president obama, federal buildings flew buildings as half staff but the new orleans fire did not receive dignity and it's time. i was obsessed with it. why would one event be so acknowledged and the other so swept under the rug? so the forgotten tragedy struck in june 1973 at typical summer sunday at popular gay bar in upstairs lounge called so because it's secluded second

story location accessible by winding twisting stairway and out of the way street permitted privacy for gentlemen seeking gentlemen, a certain kind of company, heading up the twisting stairwell cloaked and cloth you have to imagine was a lot like entering a portal in that time period up, up and away, right from the outside world and into your favorite social club, all right, and that particular night was pretty bumping, it attracted lagger e than usual crowd of 90 blue-collar gay patrons, when gay culture was early, very nascent, silver foxes, all the terms did not exist with any degree of popularity, familiarity in early 1970's. gays at this time period contained multitudes and they

could display a range of hypermasculine to hyperfeminine characteristics and in world where they would have to keep straight face on. a lot of the men were veterans who served in multiple wars and the men were steel workers, some even worked for law enforcement, so anyway, these blue-collar gay patrons, right, all gathered for the biggest drink special to have week called the beer bust, 1 dollar for two hours of unlimited draft beer. all right, plus a returnable 50 cent deposit for the pitcher, this was new orleans in the 70's now, all right, imagine men laughing and bartenders swinging direction in a crowded space and piano player who takes requests, pounds on the keys of

baby grand piano, the men had a particular song they would like to sing that became something really -- they would sing the song drunkenly, it was called united we standby the brotherhood of man. the lyrics and they stand for a little bit more so i will recite to you, united we stand, divided we fall, if our back should ever be against the wall, we will be together together you and i and then they would lift their glasses and toast each other expressing solidarity at a time when simple act of being who were they could posed existential dangers, all sorts of things that could happen, they could be evicted, they could be fired from their job, they could be rejected by their families, et cetera, you to imagine in the lounge, couples congregating inside the bar,

something very radical, joined together in what they called holy unions, same-sex marriages, spiritual congregations unrecognized by legal entities to have era but authorized by a then uber radical gay-affirming christian ministry called the metropolitan community church which had a branch in new orleans that conducted sometimes religious services and, yes, holy union receptions at the upstairs lounge. so that particular night at the lounge men are in the bar snuggling and holding hands, these expressions together. occasionally sneaking a kiss although the bar did have rules against more flagrant forms of affection, this wasn't the bathhouse with men parading in towels although section and sexual expression per se were not frowned upon, athey were

risque posters, i don't know if any of you have seen the picture, lying naked on bearskin rug, those kinds of images. [laughter] >> it wasn't frowned upon perse. there was a glory hole to facilitate a previewing of the merchandise if so needed before things progressed, i'm being real with you guys, happened fully and carefully, the inside world being dominated by heterosexual, i'm still going to say it was right, even inside being tempered by the fear of snitching, meaning gay men in trouble ratting out other gay men to police or romantically rejected by cutie dropping a nickel in a pay phone to alert employers or family members of an individual location and

activities, all right, did this happen, sadly to paraphrase shakespeare, they had ends, opening and you turn expect to go greet a friend and flames shoot in the room as if launched from a flame thrower, 44 feet that swallow it is grand piano and chewing up wall paper and burning hair, clothes, skin and trapping and eating away almost half of those in front of you, visualize having 30 seconds to choose which way to run, as people screamed, bodies stampede and perhaps being separated in the madness from a committed lover or long-time friend who doesn't yet realize that this is an emergency and therefore suspect going to make it outside with you. try to fathom 29 friends gone

extinguished, okay, rendered into gruesome carbon mounds in piles of body that some emergency workers described as the worst thing they've ever seen. and the fire that burned for less than 20 minutes with 3 more doom today agonizing deaths in hospital burn ward and the mayor remaining out of turn for more than two weeks, catholic church refuse to go hold public memorial for the upstairs lounge dead, three of the bodies burn sod badly that they could never be identified. they were buried without markers and then worse, one identified victim, a world war ii veteran named ferri who had been embraced by the cloud, man who landed at normandy beating back the nazi counterterrorism, fired victim by anonymous caller who was too afraid to say.

authorities named the man with the other unnamed bodies. but here we imagined ourselves compassionately into the destruction and devastation of a special brotherhood, a cadre of blue-collar men who had been enjoying unique kind and which t where they would be in 1973, this is what i had to understand attempt to go reconstruct what happened in a vastly different america in a vastly different new orleans than this one. i did not want to make this mistake and i've seen this with a lot of lgbt books, i did not want to start writing book of history and ended up writing book of activism into a path where they did not necessarily belong. see the upstairs lounge patrons were the exception, not the rule

with their guarded openness and lived and loved in world that concocted unique way of handling the community thriving in 1973, 60,000 homosexuals of new orleans 600,000 residents, like 10% of the population, right. new orleans had unique way of handling age-old phenomena, ladies who preferred ladies, gentlemen who preferred ladies and gentlemen. the individuals were permitted to do what they wanted to do in out of the way place so long as they did not speak the dreaded word that starts with h. a society. that seem today help more or two people being spinster roommates, two males being long-time

companions quote, unquote, what was called an uptown marriage, all right, uptown marriage would be two gentlemen romantically and sexually involved with each other who have wives who are often times best friends and who have children who often times go to the same school, right, the two families spend weekends and vacations together, age-old institution that existed in 1970's though or homosexuals would adopt aliases when they went to town and helped protect themselves against liability of being arrested. for example, gay patron was the pastor of the local mcc church, reverend larson, he slightly changed the name, why? i had to try to figure it out.

for practical reason, placed a buffer between himself and the risks of his lifestyle. it would prevent news of an arrest if it ever appeared in times, back to drift to go employer or blowing back to conservative family in ohio, those people did not attempt and perhaps even retrieve him and do the thing he feared most, lock him up with the black sheep of the families were often locked up in a time where gay men disappeared in this way, mental institutions. reverend burned to death in lounge, with his last breath he screamed the words, oh, god, no. and then his body was left there exposed in its gruesome final repos for at least 4 hours, he

became spectacle for media and afterwards mother did decline to accept remains. so after the fire there's aliases and nicknames, bill larson, deacon of new orleans church, dewayne george mitchell, michiganel at the upstairs lounge, this would hamper efforts by the coroner to id the victims for a period of days but ordinarily through these mechanisms these convoluted methods not only did gays remain safe in new orleans but then the average new orleans didn't have to acknowledge what was happening right in front of everybody's noses, all right, and those -- they could also appear upstanding when they did choose to violently punish those who didn't point out what was happening in the underbelly along the other vices which the city had managed, for decades if

not centuries, prostitution, gambling, drugs, dancing, jazz and sodomy, homosexuality, dare not speak its name. most were private and paranoid by being caught by police who would beat you down if you did not bribe them first. homosexuals was so discreet that they stuck to private parties and wouldn't be so brave as to be seen at the upstairs lounge on beer bust night. so let's deepen our understanding of the upstairs lounge fire by interrogating further the society that created conditions in which such a tragedy would occur, that means something i had to do as queer author and something i didn't want to do, it's a bit painful and lift the mental guardrails of today and step from a world

really where the majority of citizens believe homosexuality should be legal. call it acceptable lifestyle, favor same-sex marriage and would encourage two same-sex parents adopting a child to deepen our understanding we have to rebuild the closet as it existed institutionally in the past, let's enter the world of 1973 and not just flip the scale of homosexual tolerance but let's flip the scale and then break it. there a majority of people odds are everyone you loved and respected hesitated homosexual because it was alarming and embarrassing, to see the word in newspapers might call average reader to cancel subscription, gay was not a word tolerated because gay meant fred flint stone having a gay-old time.

really stood up to his father who was a bullying personality, he came out to him by saying, dad i'm gay, and father responded, well, i'm not very gay about it. gay men happy, the sort of person that's psychiatrist and psychologist it was widely believed could not experience such joy, so the word gay to the average american felt like appropriated pirated by radicals and very few newspapers if any especially in this time period would print the word gay outside of condescending quotation marks, mostly every america in 1973 believed home -- homosexual like a communist agent but in private context, more than 60% responded to 1969 time magazine article, homosexuality harmful

to the american way of life. almost 7 out of 10 americans in 1973 believed homosexuality in a poll to be always wrong. they defined it when polling companies even both erd to ask the question because asking someone how you felt about homosexuality was about asking, how do you feel about assault and battery, how do you feel about extortion, how do you feel about bribery, how do you feel about crime, majority of citizens believed that homosexuality was rightly illegal punished by laws that should govern work, housing public accommodation and more than a third of americans hesitated on whether a homosexual should be permit today speak in public. right, they contested the idea of first amendment rights for homosexuals, why?

why did that seem like a question -- a trick question to someone? well, it was because it would be the modern equivalent of giving a bull horn to a schizophrenic person, they thought, why give a platform to the mentally ill. movies like deliver reins hit the theater which portrayed of male-male sex in a squeal like a pig context of violent rape, okay, a strange and frightening intercourse, right, foisted by the wicked and the unsuspecting, right, and thought capable of robbing a father, a brother, a son of his manhood. it's what it was believed. imagine then in this climate a second-story bar on a forsaken street corner exploded with flame, through the windows and forced people to pay attention rippling outwards not just through the french quarter but into greater new orleans and the pages of "the new york times"

where the southern civil rights journalist and times london to dublin, to the international harold transcribe nuin paris, australia even for a day until they discovered the nature of the bar that had burned and the nature of the patrons that dwelled inside dropped off immediately. in the immediacy of the event it drew hundreds of on lookers in new who -- new orleans, requirig emergency treatment r -- or they tried escaping, sprinting away from the flames that are sometimes on the back of their heads, sprinting away from a situation that would say their lives, which was what was called

a gay bar, right, one of approximately 20 homosexuals dens was burned down by sexually conflicted patron who was known to many of the victims and violently ejected minutes before the fire began and consider the humiliation for new orleans, a live and let live culture bloofd by so many, paris of the south the, big easy forced to acknowledge a large gay presence lurking among its population where all the other vices are kept swept under the corner and conventioners were supposed to lay down the green, shocked, unable to muster sympathy, many locals let up steam by making fun of charred corpses of men who they felt had disrespected

the body profoundly in life. i will tell you some of the jokes. did you hear the ones about the flaming queens? i hope they burn their dresses off. what's the best way to dispose of cremated fruits, bury them in fruit jars. many applauded the democratic mayor of new orleans, in many ways forerunner in civil rights and quiet supporter of his gay friends, for his wisdom and staying out of town in europe rather than causing a hoopla and when mayor eventually did return, weeks later, too late to be practical help to survivors of wives and children of the victims, yes, this was a time when gay men would mary women in attempt to alleviate sexual burden. it was believed that could perhaps cure you although many of those marriages obviously

ended in predictable -- in a predictable way, divorce. anyway, couldn't be of help to the survivors or wives and children of the victims and the mayor then at press conference absolved the city of its behavior by saying in relation and he really had to be pressed by journalist to say this, he was pressed by the journalist about the homosexual angle of the fire and his comment was, i was not aware of any lack of concern in the community, the roman catholic church in a city so catholic the archibishop denied several catholic victims who perished in mortal sins proper burial rights in some cases and decline today permit public memorial for victims to be held at st. louis cathedral and shocking to search, the bishop seemingly moved by guilt

then did speak up weeks later in a column, the harold, tinny, tinny paragraph attached to one of his columns based on human rights and smallest of text, 100 words i couldn't believe it when i saw it, in 1973hannon did speak about the upstairs lounge and surprisingly revealed the correct number of dead and the fact that the fire seemed intentional, right, this was a man who had been following the news closely. reports, the police inquiry to anymore a culprit for the intentionally set fire dropped off sadly nationally within a matter of days, locally it took a bit longer, those dropped off too. most didn't even bother to learn the name roger dell núñez, who was in violation of probation the night he drunkenly entered,

provoke a fight and have jaw broken and dragged on front stair, screaming, i'm going burn you all out. right that was 30 minutes before the fire began. so the deadliest fire on record in new orleans history, the worst mass murder of homosexuals, record to withstand pulse worth more to the city than days of front page headlines and proverbial headline, let's be real. no one wanted to talk about the deadliest event to strike new orleans in 1973 even six months later and this seems fitting to the average citizen working hard to make this event and its legacy and trauma of this event, pressure cooker event to disappear for years, it was too confusing, too sad, it was too gruesome into the aids crisis of

1980 when more upstairs lounge survivors and witnesses would die before they could tell stories, no public memorials would mark the anniversary of this event in that decade, then in 1995 the 22nd anniversary, gay minister named dexter made controversial choice, dexter was minister of the gay affirming ncc in new orleans. he made a controversial choice, even in 1995 to speak about the upstairs lounge fire in sermon reported in the times, newspaper, and many in his gay affirming congregation were upset with him for doing so. then finally in 2003 dexter of 8 years of a lonely, lonely effort, right, he made and lost a lot of different friends, he had to spend a lot of time gathering allies and 8 years is a long time for something to happen in your own personal life and dexter lost lover, almost

devastated him and almost had to give up crusade, yet he finally succeeded in 2003 in winning enough local allies and monetary support to ray some $5,000 and finally lay a bronze plaque for the fire victims, on the 30th anniversary of upstairs lounge fire, i don't know if you've seen it. i've seen it, 30-inches by 30-inches. i've measured it. states all the names of upstairs lounge victims and i'm convinced most of the scholarship that's occurred around surrounding the upstairs fire in 21st century has been due to the fact that that monument is there raising awareness about the upstairs lounge fire every single day. so walk back from 2003 to here, 15 years in the same century, upstairs lounge monument, the bronze plaque would be vandalized on numerous occasions, paint bombed, made ash trash and into present day

one brave family the family of upstairs lounge victims and i don't know if any of you've been seeing headlines about this, but i want to address it, that family is still carrying on the brave fight with new orleans bureaucracy to exhume beloved family member from neglected potters field where he lies to this day and bring him home to california for a proper military funeral, a heros burial, time and again was so strange about the event, the upstairs lounge fire is contemporary news. with all this context even in the -- with the existence of those who preferred to look away from the fire in the present day consider the upstairs lounge now for a last time as it smolders in the past and see what truly happens. see a group of bar patrons living in a society with characteristics that they could not rid of themselves and so they were forced to live

invisibly and then those already invisible men were then murdered in intentional fire and the memory of those murdered men for decades was wiped from the slate of history, here is what's more difficult especially for me i'm a queer, gay person, but try to see where you and i would be like if society in new orleans and be honest, okay, be honest about the prospects of you or i would be in a world where less than several hundred men or women lived, quote, unquote out and proud by contemporary standards, i would likely be -- i'm being honest with you, i would likely be among the hundreds of thousands of quote, unquote straight residence or the tens of thousands of closeted gay residents, wanting their secret lives to return to normal, right, and with their hands on a powerful social eraser, the closet, which could make at that time a burning

building vanish along with all of its screaming voices. shakespeare once wrote, men are their kindness, we will adapt it, humans are and history reminds us to never be self-satisfied in present moment, okay, most do not consider that coincidence of births are biases and beliefs especially and bias i had to get over, common bias in lgbt-telling story, you probably heard this before, the history is long but bends toward justice, it's a beautiful statement from mlk. obama made a wonderful speech about this. there's nothing saturday scienty valid, society follow sideways,

how about this one in relationship to the upstairs lounge, this is how i ended up trying to understand it. we carry all of human nature with us all of the time, and that's why it's fortunate occasionally take the temperature of a society and the dimensions of our own characters and to borrow from our brothers and sisters in recovery, right to be fierceless about the moral inventory, okay, this exercise of history isn't to shame you or me or denigrate species or great city that i come to love but hold up a mirror that enables us to really look human nature in the face as upstairs lounge was out of ordinary experience that's ripped, ripped the mask away, showing human nature in a way it doesn't like to be seen. in the act of believing and behaving without ordinary filters of politeness, tradition and routine, what happens when all people have to go by is whatever passes for critical

thinking, common sense of the era and their basic instincts, i close with this thought in relation to what we discussed about the society that created conditions for upstairs lounge fire, between the upstairs lounge fire in 1973 and the pulse nightclub shooting in 2016 a powerful social institution in america, the closet, that widespread conspiracy to turn away from all things human sexual failed, it failed miserably, and as a result millions of home -- homosexuals went into the open. what happens to the folks, it's unknown. queer americans, let's be real are profoundly out of power. living off the kindness and largess temporarily of new elite which is old elite in spite of

modern gay mecca like present day new orleans but here is the thing on the tour of many gays and gay allies that i meet love the parties, continue to hate the politics, right, and behave as if keeping their heads down will hopefully mean that their fates will not match the fates of other oppressed groups and can we name them, immigrants, tran gender americans, is this crouching posture a temporary survival tactic or is it an ill-wind from a corrupt and violent past, perhaps from 1973 beconning us back to -- into the closet. one wonders and i wonder and i often end the presentation with the difficult question because i love holding straight audiences accountable, i'm going to be real with you, being here i'm reminded of another powerful

certainty which i think beats in the heart of our national ideals, pulse is in the heart of the city and that's the power of truth and reconciliation, okay, the power of american history to rejoin brother to brother over the wall, stranger to stranger across the aisle. i think of a left that the upstairs lounge victim refer -- reverend larson abused, the former abuser in orphanage in ohio, i come to you by letter, he wrote, to give thanks, honor and praise to those who encouraged me and those things i said out to do no matter how large and how small who gave me an outlook on life that others are envious of. these were christian words from someone raised by the state because his mother lived in a shack in the city dump and rejected him, from a clergy man who was once a scared boy

punished by county officials for quote, unquote sex problem, so let us stride to find the strength and grace of bill larson by looking our past squarely in the face and then having the courage to acknowledge that place for we are broken, where our past hurts and joining hands between us and attempt to set down that paint, okay, remember the lyrics of fellow that bill larson were singing with their friends at a faithful bar seconds before a fire claim them all and implore you to hear them, they sang, they were singing united we stand, divided we fall. thank you. [applause]

do we have time for any questions? >> yes, we do. >> okay, any questions? >> during the time before this gathering began, i had time to read the first -- maybe the introduction and maybe the first chapter and you made the point that social progress is often achieved or generally achieved by death by sacrifices and you cited a number of examples. and i wondered, you know, this is not exactly on the topic of the fire but i wonder what you think about the propositions that the lgbt acceptance by the

broader society has greatly accelerated by hiv and the tens of thousands who have died of that? >> wasn't universal gateway to acceptance, became a method where many family members were reconciled with other family members through natural sympathies that they developed by becoming caretaker or ad hoc amateur hospice individuals, i think that that did come into play in the midst of the aids crisis, i think so, but we are -- sadly, we are -- you can look at the history of american society, we balanced larger freedoms against our securities and we tend to let freedoms have -- have really the priority. and often times in circumstances like this especially when you think about the aids crisis and how long it took for authorities

to take that pandemic seriously, how many had to die right even before, right, there were the citizen scientists started doing voluntary human trails that enabled a lot of the really some of the most powerful work to being done, yeah, sometimes it takes unfortunately a death or many deaths before an event is treated as seriously by the authorities and by power, by elected leaders. if there's not a death often times i feel presumption is is there really a problem, sadly. yeah, any other question? hi. >> how do you feel about the comparison to paul at the upstairs lounge, it was a patron who had been kicked out and it wasn't necessarily targeting the gay community when pulse is much more seemed like it was a targeting of the outside community? >> yeah, i mean, they -- it's

not a 1 to 1 parallel, is it, i was surprise bid that as upstairs lounge historian, i was -- my feathers got ruffled a little bit when all of a sudden the upstairs lounge photos were going viral and new york times columns where renown jim down is drawing 1 to 1 correlation or connection it seems like between those two events. i'm still puzzled. i don't think they exactly match up but i do think that in the public understanding of the pulse nightclub shooting in the trauma and the collective, the overwhelming sense of grief of how do we deal with this unimaginable scope of death, that feel of slaughter that was left for omar mateen, people were grasping to hold on and in the that moment for some reason the upstairs lounge fire provided a certain -- hand hold

or a certain amount of context for people to understand that there's a basis for this in american society and american history. it allowed -- i argued about a reck roning with pulse to be more immediate, right, took the upstairs lounge decades for public memorials to be held and family members to fine out even that their relative is buried in potters field, for example, the reckoning with pulse was so quick. mayor of orlando, the conservative governor of florida, it never happened to the upstairs lounge and in a sense the upstairs lounge fired legacy that it could provide degree of context, i hope that -- i mean, probably was strangely enough not a comfort but it at least provided some

traction in that moment where they felt like people were standing on whatever could pass for solid ground again. i will give you an example, many upstairs lounge survivors i interviewed or witnesses, i had to spend about a 3-year e-mail and text message deciding whether or not they we wanted to talk to me because they -- they don't know if they want to talk about the worst thing in their lives, ripping an old bandage, the results of this interview might not be and after the pulse nightclub shooting, in some cases the next day or hours later, some of those individual who is were on the fence before me called me. and meant a lot to me because i knew how much it was going to hurt for them to tell me their story and i knew that they we wanted to tell their story because they thought it might be of comfort for someone who was hurting worse.

in a sense that's -- that i think is the relationship twine upstairs lounge and pulse, i think it's almost emotional or a sense of comradeship, rather than you're right, i don't think the events exactly pair side by side. did that answer your question? >> thank you very much. >> yeah. hey. >> hi. thank you so much. racial dynamics of upstairs lounge -- >> sure. >> upstairs lounge typically where blue-collar and black people in new orleans would be accepted or just in general how did those two -- >> right. >> segregation, they were they functioning at the time. >> can you repeat the question for tv? >> sure, the question was about how did racial dynamics played at the upstairs lounge in terms of the patrons in bar culture

and also the bar culture of gay bar can culture in french corridors, is that what you're talking about? >> yes. >> in a gay the sense community wasn't even a community in new orleans. individuals were oppressed and beaten down and they believed theirs was individual burden and they could not relate to people that they had been physically intimate in some circumstances. the community itself was highly stratified by class, upstairs lounge was not a high-toned establishment. individuals were blue-collar gay patrons, so these were individuals who worked wage jobs and of times lived paycheck to paychecks sometimes as opposed to place like coffee where tennessee williams drank or opposed to the private soirees

or mardi gras crews which were expensive at the time. they viewed it as too embarrassing. dirty street, that would be misadventure. racial dynamics play intoed that too where by in large blacks did not drink at white gay bars at least this is what i found. did have a black gay bar called staff -- safari how long u and after the upstairs lounge it was weird, one of the only concrete actions the city took immediately after the burning of the upstairs lounge was the closing of the safari lounge for fire code violations even though it never had them.

the upshot of the closing of a black gay bar, in essence, split and victimized twice, victimized because they were home sexual and also because they were black. the upstairs lounge was -- there were a handful of black patrons that would drink there, one a gentleman named reginald adams which was embraced by the crowd, quite beloved, he was dating who is now a woman who is now a very famous new orleans drag queen, they were a couple, they were interracial couple and also a couple that spanned race and gender and she loved him -- she loved him and they met at the upstairs lounge and had profound romance. her hem -- her regina was not

her birth name. he was the lone black victim. he decided they were looking for names for her and he said, his name was reggie, i think we should call you regina because regina means queen and i would like to think of you as my queen and so she decided she was going to be regina forever and even -- eventually she changed her name to regina adams, adams because his name had been reginald adams and he died in the fire and he was the love of her life and that way she could always be his queen. hi. >> i just feel that with vice president pence and the fact that has sent people and he's so against homosexuals, he sent people to be reeducated, you

know, what can be done about that kind of situation? >> oh, my gosh, i don't know. i do know that. other than -- what could be done? >> what could be done politically? i don't know, i'm historian. part of the reason that i wrote the book, nobody cares about me, no one cares that i robert fleseler wrote it, it's compelling, part of the reason the people are interested in the book is we are 15 years away from decriminalization of homosexuality of supreme court where the sodomy laws were struck down and people are interested in a real truth and reconciliation moment with the closet and this goes to your question, i think that the more people look at institution of the closet and really consider the way men and women had to live the more they will understand that that's not functional institution in our society and doesn't serve citizenry and doesn't -- doesn't

strengthen families, doesn't help residents because of the closet itself which is the reeducation programs like that, gay conversion therapy in essence, really what it does it produces -- this shouldn't be a controversial phrase, produces mentally-ill individual, right, what it does is it further problems because you have then homosexual individual living in a complex mirrors who often times can become homophobic and the greatest enemy of individuals like his or herself or quite violent. >> people like that, the more they protest it's because they are fearful that they have tendency. >> they are even further in the closet, three glances in the mirror back and sometimes they can't even find their way back from the madness and what the argument that i make is that the argument that i make is that the closet is institution of great

corruption and great violence. and i think that's the argument that as a historian i try to make. i can't -- i don't take on headlines or anything like that but i do -- there's a reason why the upstairs lounge fire is viewed as compressing contemporary topic and has to do with the political climate that you're talking about. >> we have come a long way and people -- >> sure. >> they would never read a book like this. >> right. >> well, i wrote this -- yeah. i wrote this book to try -- this isn't i'm not trying to preach to the choir, i hope -- i wrote this book for gay allies who are quiet, specifically actually i pictured men like my relatives, men and women like my relatives that live in northwest indiana that vote republican but know me and love me. i was hoping that they might read something like this. >> yeah. >> right, and start to think -- right. and start to think about what

will my -- what does my ideology permit me to do to others, okay, and if i took that ideology away and looked at my behavior, looked at my words and action could i defend them at all. and i don't know, i think there's a larger group of people of lgbt plus allies, at least i'm hopeful and convinced, have a gay son, have a gay cousin or gay brother. >> i had gay cousins they could get married in texas and now that all those things may be taken away and they are fearful. >> yeah. >> it just breaks my heart. >> of course, yeah. but i think it's important that lgbt plus youth and gay and lgbt allies look back to 1973 and learn the lessons from people who knew how to fight and they fought very hard against the

society and in essence believed in the -- believed in an america that did not believe in them. they fought to be citizens and many of us who maybe even myself consider who have been complacent after the gay marriage supreme court decision need to take some lessons from that prior generation and the only way we can because so many of them were lost to aids epidemic were through works of history. >> we heard was, well, the other people say deserve it and that's what they get. i still remember that. that wasn't that -- i mean -- so your book is wonderful and -- >> thank you. >> everything -- everybody should read it. >> thank you. [laughter] >> i worked in the convention center when you were there last week. >> oh, my gosh. [laughter] >> i'm glad you made it. >> i am suppose today get a book

afterwards. [laughter] >> they were gone, they found the box of books. >> i had a question about the metropolitan church and what is it doing now? >> it still exists in new orleans. run by a wonderful woman pastor allie, pastor allie was instrumental in participating in 45th anniversary memorial for the upstairs lounge fire which took place at st. marks methodist church last sunday. at that memorial, she spoke at the memorial, i won't say she planned the whole memorial, st. mark's, she spoke at the memorial, she read a letter from the founding pastor of the metropolitan community church who was a very really

magnanimous figure who was instrumental in history. the day after the upstairs lounge fire this radical gay minister in the early 1970's, back then was the only one of homosexuals who had gave real name to press and allow photograph to appear in the newspaper and he heard about the fire and allies ze -- descended upon new orleans and he couldn't make it and still alive at 45th anniversary at church but we wanted to have that -- corey sparks wanted to have consistent so pastor allie read a letter about recollections of what it was like to come to new orleans and the tough time he had trying to bring what was then called gay liberation ideology to a really closeted community. i will say because it was a real special thing at that memorial

it was a surprised speaker, i was in tears when this happened. please stand for our surprise speaker, new orleans mayor latoya, stood at the podium and recognized the upstairs lounge as part of city history. it was incredible, incredible moment. and that pastor allie in the front row when it happened. the threat of the metropolitan community church of new orleans is very strong and weaves throughout history even though they had tough time, they've been kind of a wandering flock which, i mean, they've had countless ministers, countless church buildings, it's not -- it's stilln't very popular to call yourself a gay christian. probably better now than it was back in the early 70's. but it's still highly controversial even in the lgbt community which often times does

not embrace queer spiritualty because some of them were so burnt by organized religion when they were younger and something that they propelled in their life. anyway, it still exists. hi. >> i haven't read your book but i will. >> thank you. >> i'm wondering if your travels did you come across mark stark's name? >> i did. a french corridor character. >> he was a religious man. he was a preacher, minister. and he's very at the center with bill and crowds but mike had a flock and, you know -- >> he was a man of many hats. didn't he hundred -- yeah, he had a health clinic that he ran. >> yeah. on gator street. >> yeah. he was in french quarter

character or b level celebrity, a well recognized -- >> i wouldn't call him character. i think character is sort of not serious. >> okay, yes. >> profoundly serious person who had gone to school somewhere and actually started out ministering to the hippies that were in town who were sick and, you know -- >> yeah. >> he was very much part of that. >> he was tied in with bill. >> they started the market. >> bill was a gay managing editor and bill was one of the few journalists in the city who consistently and doggedly reported the upstairs lounge fire and reported it really as a homosexual tragedy and then -- i'm sorry, i wanted to introduce you. you worked with --

>> i was editor. >> you edited bill. >> she was the editor -- >> oh, my gosh. you edited the editor. [laughter] >> i'm so glad that you're here. can you stand and let people know your name -- >> no. [laughter] >> it was all weekly publication that published out of a place out of decatur street and some of the -- some of the most important research i was to find about the upstairs lounge fire was from the articles in the courier, thank you so much. >> it was bill. he was -- he was definitely so dedicated to that story and so profoundly, you know, changed after and his whole -- his whole focus in life was -- was switched from that. >> wow. >> much more active, you know,

politically, always politically active. he was in architecture school. .. .. in efforts to repel any defiant and are anti-efforts in the name team 60s. >> he was a ball of fire. a great writer. thinking of tennessee williams drinking that exile and thinking about how openly he lived and yet his place were heterosexual,

you know, for the most part. >> well, he was out in the quarter somewhat and then he was closeted in new york city except the closest friends in the theater. the great biography on him -- [inaudible] such a good title. he worried about and really got dinged in reviews about glanced upon issues. allen alan is gay orientation in millville relationship or it also deals with unveiled homosexual relationship. he was worried about the way -- he didn't want the more contents to the effect to buy his own personal private behavior. he would often times be savaged

by people looking to take shots at him who oftentimes would recognize this place is the best place of the year. he walked a very careful line all the time work for most people had a sense of who he was but often time he played off that behavior as the eccentric cities of a brilliant mind. any other questions? >> everybody kind of new. we felt like the members of the french quarter, the heterosexual people like me and gay people were all really friendly and open. it may have been in their professional lives, but in the french quarter it felt very open. [inaudible] itself much more open.

>> you could find your bubbles they are. you could find your people or you could go there. >> we felt like the french quarter was a safe place for people who are gay all over the south. especially to the quarter because there was a community. there were safety there. >> they had nowhere else to go. >> but it wasn't integrated with the power structures. >> certainly not. >> or was very failed. in the words of plus one. the mayor that a closeted gay friend who was always -- you look at the list of invitations

to all my relevancy with a married couple, married couple, leon erwin the third plus one. married couple, married couple. but i mean, does the culture then. it was understood that individuals could make shift to live in a society so long as you are not publicly outed a rather individuals like that where reputations would be destroyed. any other questions? >> so when the upstairs lounge burned, it left a void that needed to be filled by another bar. how long did it take what everybody step back for a while? >> it was never preoccupied by another bar. it was left with visible signs of charring in the windows were boarded up for several decades. it was a story no one wanted to talk about even if you walk past it, which says something in a

storytelling culture like new orleans for people to press the boarded up windows and not think to tell the story. the owner of the upstairs lounge, a guy named philip steve did receive an insurance settlement in a few months afterward started a bar called the post office, which was located now i don't know if you know what the gay bars are, or the corner pocket is located to some of the upstairs lounge crowd would go there and drink there. their physical burn marks, scandalously the primary suspect of the upstairs lounge went there, too when they came back in new orleans. he was abrasive individual and he would drink there sometimes i dayside some of the upstairs lounge. roger dale munoz, i don't know if you know the story, he was conflicted in really a con artist. he convinced a woman twice his age to marry him in may of 1974

that he confessed to her on his wedding night that he was but that doesn't matter because he is impotent. i don't know how that makes any sense. still she doesn't get a moment or divorcing. he convinces her that he should move into the back trailer of her home where he lives for a period of months, stealing from her cover writing bad checks until she can take it and she's about to divorce and many death by suicide in overdose. the investigation into this is the justice system isn't designed to try the accused postmortem. but i thought it was so brazen that he would go inside this bar at the same quote, unquote boyfriend before he married that woman and he was drinking side-by-side the upstairs lounge survivor at this period of time. and the other question? thank you i so much.

i really appreciated. [applause] >> figures the book. they've got plenty behind the counter. this will be broadcast nationally on c-span and for anybody watching you could write to octavia books me but will have a few signed copies around. please get one tonight will have a sighting appear the front momentarily. >> thank you all for coming in the rain. i really, really appreciate it. [applause]

[inaudible conversations] >> search any safer, would you do for a living? >> i'm a psychoanalyst, old-fashioned psychoanalysts. >> what does that mean? >> people lay on the couch might get them to my like the new, more than once a week to really get things done. i've been in practice over 40 years now. something like that. in midlife, in my 40s i studied to become a professional writer. >> because you've never been on booktv before.