author michaelr beschlokh. you'll wish it was longer. thank you. [applause] >> you're watching book tv on c-span 2. for a complete television schedule visit booktv.org. you can also follow along behind the scenes on social media. at book tv on twitter, instagram and facebook.

>> and you're watching book tv on c-span 2's coverage of the text book festival from earlier today. >> good afternoon. we're going to begin. i am confesserallen brown professor of cultural studies and i'm excited to be with you today and have the opportunity to moderate what will be an exciting and provocative panel. i'm thrilled and honored to talk to justin driver and lumora chu about their books.

the work depicts two compelling portraits of schooling, one from the context of the every day nature, and challenges of the chinese education system, and one from the important role plays by the supreme court, in the u.s.. school, in u.s. schooling around students rights. both of these treatments highlight the power of schooling and the value people believe it has to define our life chances and opportunities to have a flourishing life. and depicts also present another side of schooling the barriers practices and conditions that sometimes fail to respect and value students in humanizing ways. so to give you a context for how the session will operate we'll begin with a discussion of both books, and afterwards we'll open the floor from the audience. i need to resemble yod if you have a question you'll need to go to the mic to ask the question since we are live-streaming. and also the authors will be signing books at the adult

signing tent on congress avenue immediately following this session. so i'll beginning with their bio's. lenoralenora chu was a consultad author with 15 years of experience in the u.s. and china. her book little soldiers won the award in 2018 and was short listed for stanford universities's international pride. internationally recognized expert on chinese education, lenora has appeared on npr, cbs, the bbc and the cbc, and her articles and on eds have been published in the "wall street journal," the "new york times," the cut, and business insider among others. she's given speeches about chinese education on four cont in the. a native of houston texas, which we share that honor and

distinction. lenora holds degrees in engineering and journal umpfrump stanford and columbia. justin driver is the harry wyatt professor of law at the university of chicago. and previously he was at the university of texas at austin school of law. he's a graduate of oxpered where he was a marshall scholar and harvard law school where he edited the harvard law review. driver clerked on the supreme court for justice o'connor and justice steven briar. a recent recipient of the american society for legal histories william nelson crawm well article prize, driver has a distinguished publication record in the nation's leading law reviews. he's also written excessively for lay audiences including pieces in the slate, "the washington post," and the new republic where he was a contributing editor. driver served on the academic advisory board for the american constitution society, a

leading -- legal organize and counter weight to the federalist society. his work has been cited in many popular publications including the "new york times," the "new york times" magazine, usa today, "the washington post," and "los angeles times." driver has also received a masters degree in education from duke, and this i was most excited about, he has taught civics and american history to high school students. please welcome our two featurered authors, lenora chu, and justin driver. [applause] >> keffrelyn: so what you share in your audience what led you to those projects, why do you think these are important in this contemporary moment, and if your background speaks to how you got to those pieces as well, please

elaborate. >> justin: so the core argument of my book is that the supreme court has played an essential role in shaping the nation's public schools. and indeed that it's difficult if not impossible to understand the public school without thinking about the supreme court. you know my interest in this work goes back a long ways. i sayhi it took me four years to write this book or three decades eato write this book depending n how you count. i d grew up in washington, d.c., in southeast dc, and i started traveling a long way to go to to school starting in the fifth grade. it involved a bus, and two different subway lines and a long walk and i started thinking about why inwhere doing this long journey? what am i gaining as a result of going to fifth grade in the most privileged segment of washington, d.c.? and conversely, what are my neighbors losing out as a result of not making that same

pilgrimage. and i also remember learning about brown vs. board of rneducation, and thinking that there were many schools that were all black in washington, d.c., some 30 years after brown vs. board of education, and so it suggests to me from a young age there's often a big gap between law on the books and life in the s streets. and then, exactly as you suggestedder i got certified to teach public school, and one of my major goals for this book is tie trooto render in an accessible way for teachers what students rights actually are. because students do have a whole host of constitutional rights that exists in the nation's public schools, including freedom of speech, due process rights the equal protection clause, free exercise and the establishment clause and it's my supposition that many teachers have some awareness of how these constitutional rights work, but i wanted to explain enorgens of

these cases, and the contours of these cases, and then also offer my guidance about how i feel the doctrine should shift going forward. >> lenora: i grew up in houston, going to public schools. i was raised by my parents who happen to be sitting in the front row. they were chinese immigrants to the u.s. [applause] i was raised with a confluence t chinese parenting values. i always say that i had two tiger mothers in the house. but you know then i had these wonderful values that came to me from my american upbringing and the public school system. in 2010 my husband and i happened to move to shanghai for work,pp we're both journalists d 2010 was a monumental year if you're an education watching because of a test calls pisa, so the odc goes around to 70 countries and ranks 15 years old

in math, reading, and science. and low and behold, shanking hi where he had just landed, china's trophy city of 26 million people came in number one in the world. president obama in his state of the union says asia's rise is sputnik's moment. arne duncan said this is a wake-up call for memories, and happened to be in shanghai with a kid in local public school. i wanted him to learn mandarin, but it was the coninfluence of circumstances that led me to want to pull back the currenten on smof some of these issues of discipline. how much is too much? do we need to memorize math facts? what are the chinese doing that maybe americans should take a look at because we're worried about our own public school system because it is a more globalized marketplace. there are 3 million chinese students studying in america. there are very few americans

going to other way so the chinese are learning about our system here, in a way that we are not, and so i'm concerned about hour public school system maybe coming at it from a different way than justin is, but i think our goal is the same. >> thank you. >> keffrelyn: so schooling looks different across the two national spaces that your books address. how does societal culture shape the unique school context that you examined? >> lenora: you know teaching is a cultural activity. education is a cultural activity, and it struck me being an american in china, that the chinese very mucham look at schooling as a way to shape a proper chinese citizen. and it's all really about the collective. what's good for the classroom, what's goodll for the school and the country by extension. and what we in america do so well is these value of the

individual, individual rights, individual interests and when you put that societal value in the classroom, we're so good at here is cultivating the curiosity of students, an elective. think about this. this is something that doesn't exist in china. for one period a day you can select something you're interested in, whether it's rock climb, or debate or going further in math. this is something the 250 million students in china don't have the opportunity to do and i think that's something we should be thankful for here. >> justin: i'm in agreement that the public school is the reflector of the larger society that they are contained in, and indeed many of the cultural clashes that exists in our nation reach their -- highest temperature point in the public school. let me give you an example. in the 1960s, in des moines,

iowa, there were students who wanted to wear black arm bands in protest of the vietnam war. and school officials in des moines get wind of this and they iasay oh, no, that's too hot a topic. and there was a graduate of des moines public school who died in vietnam, and he still has classmates who are here. so if your permitted to wear these black arm bndz there are his friends who take it as you are dishonoring his legacy, and this will create a controversy. that presented r presented a clash. do students have free expression, and freedom of speech? this is the thing that gives me the title of my book. it can hardly be already that students shed their poison in theus school house gate. students educating one another about issues that exists in society is not a distraction, but instead a vital part of the

educational process a itself. but that opinion was not unanimous, justice black wrote a vehement opinion, saying in effect students are there to be seen and not heard. teachers command and students obey. and one of the interesting things i found is that a majority of americans agreed with justice black at the time of this decision in 1960's, and would have disagreed with justice little's fortis's decision. this decision in tinker had profound consequences for shaping our nation's public schools. >> keffrelyn: if we think of schools as expressing the deepest societal values that we hold about our posterity, and who we imagine ourselves becoming as a nation in the future what do your examinations tell us about our future selves? from the cultural context to exam, what are we preparing ourselves to do and become, and what are we not?

>> lenora: let me answer that question by telling a quick qory. so, my older son was three years old when we enrolled him in a local school system in shanghai, number one in the world system a if you look at the pessa test, and the first week of school my son comes home and says my teacher forced me to eat eggs, and it took me a wile to get the story out. she had lined up the toddlers in her classroom. these are 3-year-olds and spooned eggs into their mouthsinal until they swallowed. my son spit out the first three times, which i was quite proud of. but the fourth time he swallowed sit. this kid hates eggs. i could never get him toete them. me boog who i am i march out to confront the teacher. i say teacher then, who was the arch nemesis in my book, and she said yes, i did. there's no denying this fact.

i sayhe well i'm from america, d in america we believe in individual choice. and she goes how do you get your son to eat eggs. and i say we present option a, the benefits, and option b the benefits and we incent him to choose. and shee says, does it work? we all have to know that it doesn't always. and she says don't ever question my authority in front of a child again because i had talked to her in front of her children as they were streaming out of her classroom. so that to me is a story that illustrates the difference in respect for education, respect for educators that they command. now i think teacher then goes overboard. if she were teaching in the austin public school she would probably be in jail. but, to me, this story opened up an avenue to exploarp some of these issues of how much how much respect for teachers is too much. haveve teachers lost complete ought onmy in the classroom.

because in reporting i started interviewing teachers in texas, boston, minnesota, new york, as well as low performing districts and highh performing districts, and they feel they lost respect. especially the teachers that were teaching 30 years ago and the difference between that and now, not only are the students speaking out against them but also the parents. and i think that is a trend that i find trouble some in american education, and while the chinese go overboard i think that's something we need to look at here. >> justin: i have concerns aboun tmessages that are being communicated to our youth and schools today. and no issue am i more concerned ability than corporal punishment in the nation's public schools. the supreme court had an opportunity 250 reign in this practice in the 1970s out of a case that dealt with really egregious facts. james inkroom was a middle school student in miami,

florida, and he's on stage with some of his buddies, and he was instructed to depart the stage, and he does so with an insufficient sense of urgency, and for that shocking infraction, he is summoned to the principal's office, where he's supposed to get five licks in the parlance. this is with the two-foot long wooden paddle. and when his turn arises, he says it wasn't me, and offers some form of resistance, and two assistant principals grab him and bend him over the principal's desk holding him his arms and his legs down and he received not 5 licks but 20 licks and this beating is so savage that he has to receive medical attention. he -- a doctor prescribes pain relievers, cold compresses, sleeping pills, laxatives, three days later he returns to the hospital to receive more medical attention and i found that doctors note that there was a

six-inch bruise that was tender, swollen and purplish in color and indeed was oozing fluid. and this is part of a reign of terror that existed at this all-tblooc, jr. high school, where students were beaten b for sitting in the wrong seat, for having untucked shirt tails. for incredible minor infractions. and is the school district in the effort to defend it made matters worse. there was a principal in miami beach who said we don't use corporal punishment ine. this u school, our students are predominantly jewish and they understand oral persuasion. and the implication is that the -bl-black students at this, jr. high school understand only brute force. and this bothers me. the court said this did not qualify as punishment for purposes of the cruel and unusual punishment clause, because it didn't grow out of a criminal conviction. and so this is not punishment for constitutional purposes. and i should say this is not

merely an artifact of history, corporal punishment still exists in this great nation of ours. 19 states still have this practice. just five states account for more than 70% of the inestablisheses of corporal punishment, and so if i have any single goal for my book it is to ntelevate the sailgence of this issue andnt to hope that the supreme court will revisit this issue because i fear that the jurisdictions that retain the practice at this late date are not going to ebandon it on their own. >> keffrelyn: so i love the title of this session, "how we learn" because it cleverly points to different kinds of learning that we know takes place in schools. students learn knowledge from textbooks, they learn knowledge from content that's mandated by the state and tested by the state. they also learn unintended knowledge or knowledge that teachers may be not aware that they're learning or not specifically trying to teach that knowledge, in education we

call this a hidden curriculum. is there any unintended messages or knowledge that students learn about themselves and it may be positive knowledge, it may be things that are less savory. but are there any that come to mind from the context that you looks at in terms of how -- what the students learn about themselves and a place within the world. >> justin: yes. so tinker, the case i mentioned out of des moines, iowa, was a real break through for the freedom of speech. and it was a wonderful decision in my view affording students the freedom of speech, however it didn't go far enough and one of the ways it didn't go far enough was that the test that tinker articulated was that if teachers have a reasonable fear of a substantial disruption in public schools then they can punish students for this speech. this could be understood as reading into the test, what

first amendment maven's would refer to the heckler's veto. this is the idea that particularly sensitive listeners if they object vociferously enough can silent otherwise legitimate speech. so the lower courts have not done a good enough job at requiring students to be around people even though they disagree with. so there are a couple of opinions where for instance the when one school in california students were told that they could not wear clothing with the american flag, and that they had to turn their t-shirts inside out, on may 5th, aka sink o demayo, and there were people who were saying what's the matter, you don't like nextkens, and threatening violence. while i understand the freavtionz and the message theya believe is being communicated there, i think that the stronger solution would be to have a talk with the students who were threatening violence, and if anybody has to be disciplined it

should be those students, not theit ones who were communicatig otherwise legitimate speech. and there are other cases involving issues of gay equality, where a similar issue arises. are where religious speech is suppressed. and even though i disagree with the messages that are being communicated, it's my view that students need to be able to express themselves and to disagree without turning to violence, and indeed the issue of free speech on college campuses has received an incredible amount of attention, too little attention has been paid to what's happening in our elementary and secondary schools, and i think there's a connection between these two areas that we think about as being distinct. >> lenora: when i think about how we learn, i became obsessed with this idea as i saw my son progress through the system, where the memorization was bad. people say that about the chinese all the time, but the

learners people write op-ed, saying they want children to become robots. we moved him into hybrid system of schooling but he was coming home from chinese primary school, double digit multiplication, and it's all up here in his head, and i thought he's doing drills? and this relationship between rote learning and creativity has been written a lot about in education, and i was obsessed about unpacking this idea. does memorization and practice is that the antithesis to creativity? what i learned is the creative process, knowledge is a very important component of creativity, because the reason we're obsessed with creativity and education is because we're educating our kids for a future that is unknown. we don't know what jobs will

exists in sayears. we have an idea but 15 years ago we were wrong about what the work place would look like now. we want to teach our kids to be adaptable, and flexible. the creative process has three components. knowledge is one of them, you have to know things and some of them can be taught in school. secondly, that's what the chinese is good at. no. two is what we're see good at in american culture, and motivation and curiosity, in other words, encouraging kids to explore what they're interested in personally. that is the personal you have to have a passion component to your education. lsd also thirdly, if you're comparing to two cultures, which is looking kids to come up with original ideas and practice implementing them. and in my classroom visits in china and in the classroom visits here in the u.s., the language is different. teachers here are saying all right kids what do you think about what we just learned.

let's discuss. what do youin think john, what o you think jill, let's talk about it, this discourse is not happening in the chinese classroom and that's a huge leg up for us. but what we cannot forget is there are certain things we need to know, for example the greatest dilemmas of our age, atthe cure for cancer, technoloy that doesn't melt our brains, whatever it is. it always comes from a base of knowledge. it's not just the original thinking, and the passion that is important. so i'd say that is my learning as well. in relating to justin's work he's absolutely right, the freedom of speech in k-12 is not looked at. and because they don't have that in china. because there is not a freedom of expression expression in the classroom that is going to be in my opinion if the number one obstacle to developing the future f student of the future in china. >> keffrelyn: so the word control came to mind when i

thought about your books together. and this was perhaps most evident when looking specifically at the titles of your books, which i think are beautiful. "little soldiers: an american bs the aim of schooling, producing as cadre of fighters who will defend the state. while the school "schoolhouse gate: public education, the supreme court, and the battle for the american mind" brings images of gatekeepers that decide who and what can get in and what remains at bay, how did you arrive to the title and how do they speak to the nature of scoomg in the chinese and american context that you looked at. >> justin: so the school house gate comes in the -- of tinker, but you have been doing a nice job of saying gates are letting people in but sometimes turning people away. the one case i write about that's most important, that the

supreme court has written about. is plylar vs. doe, where the state great of texas passed a law in 1982 that said it was permissible to exclude unauthorized immigrants from nation's schools. at the time it was an open question as to whether this past constitutional muster? judge william wane justice, in tiler texas, invalidated this law, in a heroic decision and one that was ultimately held up by the united states supreme court. some constitutional law professors have scujed this case was relatively unimportant because texas was the only state in the nation that had such a law. and they say that only those coy boys in texas would be attracted to this sort of rule. we knowtoid today that anxieties about unauthorized immigration are far from confined to texas. noand so it's possible to see

tyler vs. doe as probated other statess from adopting other measures. california and alabama tried to adopt the same measure, and many other countries would have had the supreme court not issued this decision in 1982. so that decision is not trivial, but incredibly momentous in shaping our constitutional order, in that it allowed millions of children to receive an education who otherwise would have beenn prohibited from doing so. >> lenora: i titled my book "little soldiers" because my son was singing a song, about a little soldier who works hard every day and worked toward his goals. the mantra is great, and i'm happy he was working towards his goals, but it was the way he was marching, and it conjured up the image of the robot. but there's so many other

parallels, not only is it the song they're teaching in schools, but there's something militaristic about the way chinese is educated, and needing to go through. the school system there. it's quite dramatic, the policies are called no child left bienld, whether that's truly, the you had is there that we educate everyone. everyone has a right to an education. in china, half the kids drop out of the system at the teaching level. in other words, it's okay not everybody gets ahead. oif you don't pass a test, youe toast. that is the chinese system and i felt that "little soldiers" was a accurate way to capture this cust-throat test based system. >> keffrelyn: so -- while your books explore different aspects of schooling, i was struck by the lack of value that both of

the systems at different points seemed to hold around the perspectives, experiences and the rights of students. i think this is -- we see this all the time in education. we talk about students but we often very rarely talk to students. whetherll discussing their constitutional rights or expecting them to adopt without question. a predetermined political orientation, and set of content knowledge, real regard for -- real regard for what students want and desire is rarely at the center of those discussions of schooling. do you agree with this idea and if so, what are some examples of how this played out in your examinations? the lack of value for students and placing students at the center of conversations. >> justin: so one of the issues where the supreme court has in my view fallen down goes to the fourth amendment dealing with

the prohibition on unreasonable searches and seizures, and i think that the court pays insufficient heat to how it would feel to be a student in a public school, for instance required to submit to a suspicionless drug search. there's a student called lindsay earls, who grew up in oink, oklahoma. and for participating in extra curricular activities, she was summoned to the girls room and reports about going into a stall and being required to give a specimen, and having a teacher post it outside listening for the tell-tale sounds of urination, handing the vessel to the teacher who then inspects it for the temperature, and holds it up to the light to look at the color and clarity. and again she's not suspected of any wrong-doing, just simply for

participating in extra ndcurricular activities she's given this -- and so i think that if the supreme court justices place themselves in the place of a public school student, they would be more sensitive to how it feels. there's another really important case, also in the fourth amendment dealing with a strip search of a student called savannah redding. who is suspected of having ibuprofen tablets. not that she had them in her undergarments at all. -- united states invalidated that search but in articulating the rule they provided insufficient protection. and so one of the goals i have for the book is that it might be possible to cobble together a coalition of liberals and the libertarian vision of constitutional law that is ascendant in some right wing circles. libertyitarians are supposed to have skepticism of state authority. if you think about the free speech and corplet punishment

and the fourth amendment i hope that skepticism will appear when it comes to students rights. >> lenora: my area of expertise is china and the chinese student has few rights if any at all. i'm a trying to think of the two students i write about in my book. amanda, she was fortunate enough to spend a year in a high school in connecticut. i would say from her perspective that there are a lot of students rights that she sort of experienced. even being able to read shakespeare in our entirety, where as the merchant to venice was heavily censored and redacted, and she was only allowed to access snippets. what are the lessons learned from a system that doesn't value student's rights at all? if you look at the creativity spectrum, you're ignoring the student's open comagzs.

you're ignoring their ability to think originally, and that's a llill you need to practice. for example, amanda's first grade teacher said i want everybody to write the equal sign with two perfectly parallel signs. she tied two pencils together so the lines would always be parallel, and do you know what the teacher did? the teacher took her paper and shamed her into in front of the classroom and tacked the paper on the blackboard. her mom couldn't bring the story to the administration, this is the fact of life in china. so that's an extreme. i would sayay that there are mar problems with the system but you almost -- in the u.s. but you have to talk about it -- do you have to talk about it in terms of haves and have-not? because some students -- that wouldn't happen to certain kids. it just doesn't. the parents aren't going to have

avenues of recourse so -- >> keffrelyn: for now we'd like to open up for audience questions. if you have a question if you could go to the mic's and we will move from there, and it looks like we have one. >> guest: high. thank you very much. great presentations and very are different spectrums we're looking at for the two presentations, that's very enjoyable. when i talk to educators their experiences in classrooms, what i hear is the real key to success in what i think we might call child development rather than learning, is the relationships that develop between the teachers and the a students. and we all know there's a lot of things that factor into that, but the two issues here that chinese model and the model that justin is after in terms of increasing student's rights could each of you speak to -- first of all whether or not you believe that is the case, that's what we should encourage in

order to improve the development of children in the u.s., but the other point is, how would you messenger those kinds of things to enhance the kind of relationship that lead to children learning more? and with the areas that you've been most involved in your research? thank you. >> justin: it's a good question, and one of the things it highlights is the contested role that teachersoo play in american society. at the time ofso the 1980s, thee was an open question as to whether it was possible for school officials to violate the fourth amendment at all. many people suggested that teachers act in loco parentis, so just as a parent could rummening through their parent v child's bedroom. but a teacher could with no provocation whatsoever inspect

all of the backpacks coming in. the supreme court has rejected that view, and one of the things that emerges from the cases that i exam is the way that different supreme court justices have differing views about the role of teachers in american society. sometimes those who wish to have deference to school authorities often an incredibly rosy understanding of the dynamic that exists between teachers and pupils, and often, that can be a role of mentoring, but sometimes it is an adversarial mode including when one's imposing corporal punishment or thinking about due process rights with respect to suspensions and another thing that the question triggers for p me is thinking about the transforming nature of the public scoom that is to say in the 19 0eu78s it was relatively rare for police officers to be in public schools, and now the presence of uniformed police officers are a

ubiquitous feature especially in our urban schools. and so there again, the shifting nature of the wroiption between students and governmenting authorities be that public school teachers or police officers is something to keep an eye on and to monitor. >> lenora: does it have to do with guns? another issue we maybe don't have time to talk about today. for good reason. so, i always think about the student versus the collective. qhawts good for the student is not always what's good for the group. i frame a lot of issues after my five years of research about the american and the chinese education systems and when i'm talking to teachers here a lot of times they say, there's in minnesota there's a behavioral, the teachers in the audience will understand this, but if a child is labeled a problem child, or has a behavioral issue the teacher is required to spend two minutes with that kid during

class time, and in her class of 28 she has 16 behaviorally challenged kids so that's 32 minutes of a 50 minute class hour, which leaved roughly 15 minutes for teaching. so you know -- not to say that that's a bad policy, but the -- what that story brings up to me is what is good for the student versus what is good for the collective, and we need to make sure the pendulum rests in equilibrium, because we need to pay attention to both sides because they can be in conflict. >> guest: thank you for rocan your aluminative presentation. i appreciate it. i ran an elite private school in the state of vermont, i sent the kids to tth-grade to college with no high school. kids that foe to the elite

schools are culturally illiteral. to wit in the past few days i've asked kids if they -- know who joseph stalin was, if they know what the ten commandments are. they never know, and they say i'm an atheist, or we weren't taught that or whatever. my question to both of you, what is being done in terms of china and your knowledge of the united states mr. driver, in terms of having culture literacy important. kids can't function unless they know the basic tenants of their background, of tradition. >> lenora: there is a general movement in american education away from having to know certain things, whether math facts or historical facts or point of history and committing those to memory. and in china it's the complete opposite. what -- well you have to problem there the communist party

dictating what they want their students to learn in the classroom, but generally history is important in the classroom there and they not only discuss it but they commit some of these things to memory. what is the equivalent of the ten comants. what would they be learning there. of course religion is band from the classroom, it's a completely separate thing but -- [audio >> justin: something that has emerged in real fares over the last three decades, and many people thought for a long time there was no right to do so. they thought it was really valuable to people exposed to one other set of attitudes and knowledge base, and i have stumbled across instances of home schooling where the curriculum is designed by an eight glared who says i like to

dance and i'm not muchtered in literature, and math. so i'm really up on dance, but i'll dedicate the next three months. i don't think that home schooling should be outlaud, but there needs to be greater oversight and regulation of these phenomena. the home schooling advocates say how dare you think about entering a home, but when you turn your home into a school it seems to me there are certain responsibilities that come along with that. some states don't even require notification that home schooling is happening. and so the estimates that we have, are only rough. and so that seems like that's something. if we are trying to have people to be able to have -- to come together with common understanding, that that is an area to monitor. >> keffrelyn: our next question? >> guest: thank you for your comments today. i'm an educator by trade.

my question specifically relates to student rights. family educational rights and privacy act and the context of information technology. can you speak to any cases that relate to students being able to have access to their records and i'm specifically talking about the university of texas at austin where i requested my records emailed and so there were only pieces of it given, not the whole thread, things of that sort, and lastly if you could both speak to culture, as aca of oov a.m. males, if you've done research about one out of three african males could go to prison inn their lifetime. anything look those lines? >> justin: i'll take the second part first. one of the interesting things i stumbled upon in researching this book that i did not know was the rise of single-sex public schools in the nation.

in the 1909s there were very few such schools. but out of concerns with respect to achievement in the black community many people as an effect a last-ditch effort have revised single-sex schools. i find this development distressing including the way that the schooling often seems to sort of further sex-based stereotypes. i happened upon some classrooms where the schools were -- theoretically integrated. but they divided the boys in one classroom and the girls in the other. in the boys classroom behind the teacher's desk, it says coach's corner, and in the girl's r.classroom there are pink desk caddies, and a sign that says act pretty at all times. so, if we take seriously justice gins bugger's pioneering commitments to gender equality from the 1970s it seems

difficulto to reconcile these sorts of programs with the constitution. i unfortunately don't have anything to say about the question about students accessing their information. i wish i could help you but -- >> guest: thank you. >> keffrelyn: okay, another question? >> guest: thank you very much for your presentation. it was very enlightening. i'm a special educator by trade, and so i had two questions. one for mrs. chu, i was curious because you spoke so much as to how chinese education focuses on the collective. i'm curious asca to how they handle students with interms or disabilities with by their nature are different from what we perceive as normal. and h for mr. driver i was curis with the push for inclusion in our public schools, and moving away from modified or resource classes towards the full inclusion based model, where do

you see educational law going award to the spectrum of services offered to students with disabilities. republican national committee were you talking about kids with special needs? okay. it's fairly the prospects for these kids are dismal. if i can put it frankly. i talked to there are several activists in china, they are trying to call the attention to this issue. they're setting up separate sisters, throughout is nothing in the school system that can identify special needs. even the diagnosis is incredibly primitive. the document says every city with 300,000 population or more should have a special center, but there's nothing with mainstream and/or identifying kids that need help. >> justin: i focus on student's

constitutional rights in theht where as you know the -- these issues are governed by the idea which is a statute so i alas don't dedicate much attention to that very important issue, which is a source of case law at the supreme court. these days more often than the constitution. so it's not to say it's unimportant, i am a constitutional law professor, and so i was focusing on those issues involving the constitutional rather than the statutory claims important as they are. >> keffrelyn: this has been an illume ninety eight discussion, please join me in thanking our two authors. [applause] and please join them in the book signing that will take place in the office tent right after.

thank you. [applause] >> your watching book tv on c-span 2, with upon nonfiction books and authors every weekend. book tv television for serious readers. >> and book tv's on core prevention of the texas book festival from earlier today now continues. >>