. >>. >> encore presentation of the texas book festival coverage from earlier today we will hear authors discuss the me to movement immigration and more

the full schedule available on our website apple tv.org first identity politics. welcome to the texas book festival, or welcome back if you were . >> welcomeer back. it's great to have you in the book tv tent. but our author will be in the tent afterwords so go by the book men meet him and get your book signed at the end. so the format that we will talk about 25 or 30 minutes then opened to the crowd for 15 or 20 minutes for q&a. it looks like there are two microphones but the best bet is lineup.

if you are not close enough you may have to go closer because we are televised live people around the country want to hear your question. it's a great privilege for me to introduce francis and then we will get going. senior fellow at the for international student studies and for democracies with the rule of law. taught at school of an advanced universities in the george mason school of public policy at a researcher at the rand corporation served as deputy director for the state department policy planning staff. the author of political order and decay and now this book

identity. i want to start by asking you something we were talking about earlier which is i was surprised you took on this issue of identity politics but this is something that goes back to the sam book you wrote many years ago that first brought you to international attention. do you want to talk about your origins then come up to the present? . >> sure. 1982 i published a book called the end of history. a lot of people have criticized the concept but they did not read the book. [laughter] if theyy had and in particular the last third about the book so the end of man so the end

of history is not my phrase but from a philosopher about the evolution of human societies and the question was what lies at the end of that evolution that today we would call modernization or development. and my argument progressive intellectuals thought it was communism that is what karl marx argued and i said it didn't it would be that where we got there but a liberal temocracy tied to a market economy but the last man this is the man where the human being thatme emerges at the end of history with peace and prosperity but no aspirations n no satisfaction with that inner yearning for something greater and they said this will be a problem for democracies in the future because peace and prosperity

is great if you don't have it like a poor country but once you take that for granted people want something extra so it is part of the human personality that is spiritedness or the belief of an inner sense of dignity that is not adequately recognized by other people. this is a driver of a lot of phenomenon in the world beginning with democracy itself. if you live in an authoritarian country like human garbage this is the origin of the arab spring a vegetable seller his cart was confiscated by the dictatorship and he asked where his cart was nobody would talk to him so he doused himself in gasoline and set himself on fire and that was the trigger of the arab spring because people recognize that

is what authoritarian governments do they don't treat their citizens like human beings that deserve an answer to the question of where is my vegetable cart. but also like nationalism where people believe they are members of the nation that is not politically recognized so they demand that is a legitimate demand in many cases like ukraine or, georgia but that can turn into the aggressive desire to dominate other countries. and finally in our society with that established liberal democracy t we are blessed to enjoy as citizens recognition of dignity and declaration of independence by granting us rights with freedom of speech

but often times this isn't enough to be simply as generic citizens but in a particular groups. and with marginalization. so in modern liberal societies i think we have the process that people seeking recognitions so this begins in the sixties with the civil rights movement for african-americans and the feminist movement so this begins in the sixties with the civil rights movement for african-americans and the feministt. movement and all of these that seek recognition not as generic americans that members of minorities that have been discriminated against which was perfectly legitimate but this is part of a larger process that in some

ways conflict with the belief of liberal society where we are all equal citizens. >> so can you talk about the motive? and this book you may not have written if it did not take a turn so there is a consequence of that that motivated you to spend a few years writing a book. >> that was simple it was the election of donald trump in 2016 and also in britain with teeeleven brexit so all of the

politicians that represent identity politics and in contrast to the progressive identity in the united states. these forms of identity are built around ethnicity or nation. so victor says hungarian national identity is based on hungariann ethnicity if you live in budapest somehow you are not part of the nation and i think and many ways that is a phenomenon we were seeing in the united states where a president who was perfectly happy to feed off of racial resentment and has encouraged nostalgia for when america could understand itself as a white european the explanation for his popularity obviously

this is very problematic and it's a general challenge to democracy because what these politicians d do is have a charismaticha authority. of course, donald trump is not popularly elected but to attack basic institutions because a liberal democracy isn't just about voting and getting elected but also a constitutional separation of power that prevent the executive from doing whatever he wants. if you are elected as a populist that i have a mandate from the american people

therefore if one of these institutions gets in my way i will attack it. so that hasou been the threat we are under the last couple of years with the president with energy of the american people who attack his own fbi or justice department simply i think to avoid personal accountability for his own actions but this isn't just the united states it is going on in many other countries around the world almost every european country has a party nipping at their here - - their heels now in italy you have a populist government coming to power so that's why i wrote the book. >> it's interesting and

dealing with this in a nuanced way that we are all asking questions now and what the book is what makes the country work? there is the recognition of the fragility of a liberal democratic country and a diversee society that we didn't have a few years ago and what is tricky but the real america and also what happens on the left of with identification of different groups that seems to erode what we need to hold us together but we do need stories.

with the overarching story to beng hungarian and to be in foundationaler order. . >> and in some ways the endowment look similar? . >> you cannot have a successful country of any sort if you don'tin have an over sense of national identity. it isn't a popular term but if you want proof then look at the contemporary middle east. you have a whole series of countries. libya, iraq syria afghanistan somalia, yemen basically have fallen apart as states because theyna do not have a sense of national identity people are

more loyal to their ethnic group, sect, region, tribe man to syria or iraq that results in catastrophic state failures, civil war the oupopulation pushed out. so that is the endpoint of national identity. in a democracy it doesn't mean you are culturally uniform and everybody agrees but they have to agree on basic institutions and the legitimacy and to accept failure through those institutions if they don't get their immediate goals that is the only way it can work i think american and national identity has been weakened over the years with the work

of the left and the right. on the left identity politics in this country has perfectly legitimate roots with social injustice but there is an interpretation that says the essence of the american order is racism or the whole country was built on these foundations and there isn't much we can do about it but the other form of identity politics is rising on the right to drag us back to an i older understanding of american identity and this is something that we arrived at as a civic identity.

if you think of the american identity it was based on race because native american are women could not vote so the united states fights a civil war was 600,000 people are killed and then we passed the 1h amendment who says all persons born or naturalizedry of the territory are now considered american citizens. this is one of the most important achievementsca to make it nonracial. women continue to be excluded but it takes another 100 years until the reality of that citizenship to realize, the civil rights movement.

by the end of the 20th century we have arrived with americans that is built around the constitution, the bill of rights, rule of law, which i think was in an achievement for what they hold in common and is now extremely troubling to me with white nationalism that says to go back to this ethnic understanding that's not possible because it is too diverse of a society because the threat comes from the right more powerfully right now than from the left. >> do you feel, i was struck when you were talking about

the need to reassert more confidence on one of the things that i agree with that makes me a little pessimistic, and i have a lot more conversations with people on the left that our guilty of the erosion. that america is racist patriarchal country and i would say a country he can hang together on the narrative. so do you want to tell the truth or ask if people are happy? so it feels like you say if we want to survive we have to tell a story that is operating on a different access axis.

. >> i think you could be truthful about that progressive story and not have to tell lies. when you are teaching children or students about the history of the united states there is any respect to cover up those actual injustices. we had slaves and gender discrimination but there is a long-term progressive story as a result of politicall struggle over decades, many were eliminated and we don't live in a perfect society today but i wouldn't trade the situation of an american and when the

kkk was much stronger than it is today with complete racial segregation of the south. both of these stories are correct you can talk about the real injustices and they're stilll work to do but there is that struggle to make things better. >>nk this speaks to those that stereo typically talk about the donald trump i voters for those that were left out by the national narratives. what do you have to offer them? asking them to take a hit around being african-american or to be a part of this

identity that and fundamentally they feel that it doesn't include them. what ^-caret are you offering? . >> with black livesesma matter t is a reality of police violence especially in american cities that's a problem and needs to be addressed with the behavior of police departments around the country but it's not either/or. and with integrated american identity. entity both of them at the samehe time. and the identity politics on

the right that our legitimate in my view and also things that need to be addressed. for example,, looking at the white working class there has been a lot ofti attention since the 2016 election the fate of the white working class. they were not uniformly privileged. and if they lost their job and it's not the case that you are respected or that you lost this respect but you thought your parents had. but it's not as if the elites in the media and politics with those political parties had

done a whole lot for you. so to appreciate you can be disrespected or ignored in a variety of ways. i'm not trying to have the moral equivalence or with injustice because it is much more severe than others but one of those underlying reasons we are so polarized is toua look more carefully on the other side of the polarization to appreciate the ways of disrespect. as an example. look. the cdc most recent estimate of those that died of a drug overdose this is a lot of

people as many get killed in accidents there hasn't been a lot of attention paid until the 2016 election because this is happening to a group of americans so there are problems on both sides. . >> and to go back to this concept, you say that we need to find a national narrative? and to be in the narratives but to those on both sides because whatever the moral equivalent or lack of equivalent a you cannot have a functioning society. and with a minimum threshold of members of the society.y.

. >> and one of the things political scientist now is that people do not vote rationally. they vote based on partisan affiliations and those are driven by a sense of community and pride and a certain membership and identity. politicians that simply speak to the economic interest or a rational calculation to a policy could benefit them if you don't appeal to their pride you cannot get them to appeal to you donald trump is brilliant to see that their

pride had been hurt and from the past but that doesn't mean you can come up with a different kind of narrative to be much more inclusive that would appeal to americans pride because there is that historical story that can still beri told by the united states in 2018. . >> so if one - - folks want to line up behind the microphone one of the things from the book is you don't just diagnose the t problem and then be convinced we are all doomed. it is appropriate you don't get too detailed but you talk about what type of measures could bring us back towards a

national identity. can you talk about what that might look like quick. >> first of all, i think leadership we underestimate the degree to which these narratives about national identity can be shaped by the right kind of politician. unfortunately we have not had a politician that has articulated this identity that i talk about in a way that has been't terribly appealing. citizenship, the one thing you can do is talk about it. with the education system, we don't actually teach civics anymore. the poll data those i graduate from american high schools that can identify one out of the original bill of rights

, the three branches of governmentnt, it is appalling how ignorant people are of their own political system. that's something we can do a much better job if they understood the constitution properly maybe they would recognize itze where it is under attack. the other bigg area is immigration for a lot of sensitive issues but it seems to me that a real policy solution to the current deadlock is on the table the last 20 years but activist on both the left and the right prevented it from coming about. essentially it is a trade-off that basically you have to b provide the undocumented immigrantsts in this country living here or peacefully

without records you have to provide a path to citizenship but you also have to take seriously. [applause] . >> wait for the other side. [laughter] but if you have to take enforcement to seriously in the future. a lot of people on the left don't think it is an important issue and democrats themselves that is one of their b big weaknesses that they have not articulated a sustainable position on this question. you cannot even have a democracy if you cannot define who the people are. clear rules for citizenship and who gets the right to vote

and control over your borders going forward. that is the trade with every comprehensive immigration bill going back to 1986 reform. we cannot get to it because activists on both sides on the right with a group of people that our dead set against amnesty and those that don't want strong enforcement measures but that's the only to ultimately solve this problem. by the way, if you could solve that it takes away a huge rhetoric that people like trump was using to batter more or less aggressive candidates. and that's what we have to accomplish. >> and may be the reason why they do not agree it is because they don't want to let go of that.

. >> talk about this whole narrative with people dattempting to steer the narrative and using fear and how we break that cycl cycle. >> it depends on the sources but fear comes from a social injustice so police violence or sexual assault, these are all issues that have very specific ways to be addressed and they do need to be addressed by policy.

however national identity cannot be based around fears and the mitigation but also on hope but the positive agenda. obama talked about it and that's why these white working class people voted for him and why he was elected twice but it has disappeared from the cinarrative of the politicians. so some combination of real policy efforts to address these injustices with attention to integrative identities to bring people back together is the right competition. we can do both of those at the sameo time.

>> i would like to push back that donald trump is a genius. that strategy is not a playbook but talk about syria and iraq how can the national identity exist in a nation that is set up by imperial power? . >> i did not call him a genius across the board. [laughter] he is obviously very ignorant of policy and not thoughtful but he does have a very intuitive sense ofia what a certain social sector feels and thinks and does that in a way that other politicians did not so that's the sense that i said to have good political instinct by the way if you are

a democrat you should be careful about underestimating that. that these nations were set up by imperial powers but just like sub-saharan africa if this region could organize itself based onig indigenous foreign's you would have states that all tribes or ethnic groups or social units that are not viable of any order s with turkey or egypt these are real nationstates but you will not get any kind of stability with national identity. i was in iraq in late august

there was an ongoing struggle because part of theso solution is to create the sense of the overarching identity but others are perfectly s happy to push that sectarian agenda. so tell me what is the because we can undo 150 years of colonial legacy. that you need something like national identity. >> do what they did in iraq and afghanistan to have a nation based on democratic principlesn. >> first with the immigration

debate, the podcast revisionist of history has an interesting episode goes to the history h that basically he argues for less enforcement that it would cause people to stay here. but the question that i had was if you have those policies on the right using minority struggleswe as a wedge issue how do you think they should struggle to get more recognitio recognition? or do you say they should be quiet for a while? . >> no. it depends on the specific way that you articulate your

agenda. for example, i really like the affordable care act i think that was a great example of a general social policy with great benefits for african-americans as well as rural whites who weren't getting access but that's my idea of a well targeted but it's not targeted but it's against that economic group of different races and ethnicity and so forth but that by itself is what it was done for minority groups and did not have good health care. i'm not opposed to specific remedies but in cases where

that's clearly the source of the problem but on the same political terms but the democrats right now unashamedly a to take back the house on november 6. >> i was a registered republican through 2010 so you don't have that electoral roll check to what's going on right now and that's very important but looking r down the road but if they govern the country in the future have to make this basic strategic if they double down and that's the way they

get out the vote for the elections and leaving the party for the next 30 years. ass the electoral strategy it has worked pretty well for them but i don't think it's a cgood way to govern the country but my preferences to go the second route that is more integrated so he started his campaign to emphasize economic issues but he ran into a buzz saw a resistance because the activist lives in the identity groups that's the basic strategic choice faced by the democrats now.

[applause] . >> thank you. [laughter] . >> you talk about the example of national identity but your analysis is wrong but as a political battle those did not want democracy from those that were in power that during this up praising that people all wanted and inclusive system there was a lot of slogans that you saw from the protest so can you expand? . >> unfortunately there is a

relatively small group of people we are fighting the liberals in a western sense that actually wanted a tolerant and democratic syria. a lot of them are my friends i wish there were more of them but unfortunately in that country there are other powerful groups that basically wanted a particular version or foreigners that definitely did not want a democratic syria. are right it begins with the asad regime they would rather see half of their population killed rather than have political power. that's national identity it is married to the sect rather than any notion that the kurds

and other people should be part of they just care about the survival of others which sets off every other sectarian group and not to defend syria that's the basic problem. . >> the republican party in 2012 had this autopsy that they were too racist or anti- immigration and they needed to change but obviously they didn't. and it turns out that's the right thing to do will it ever be bad for them? [laughter] but they continue to win.

. rightis bad for them now they are trying to get into the country based on extreme policies so i don't think they are doing a good job right now. but the question is when does it become so apparent to enough people that this is not a good set of policies that they have to vote that changes the electoral college? one of the things to worry about in the future that the loser of the popular vote have become president both republicans. and this happens on a regular basis because those that shift

in the demographic balance those that our democratic already and furthermore as the country continues to urbanized come a lot of small rural states like wyoming and montana that continue to get two senators compared to california that has 40,000,002 senators so that of my desk that unrepresented this is very skewed and will continue as time goes on. this isn't a formula for stability in the future it will become increasingly evident so to bring people out into the streets to provoke a really big upset my prediction donald trump wins in 2020

but the popular vote will be more than the 3 million that happened in 2016. we are headed for a big constitutional crisis on precisely this issue. . >> yet this book is aimed at the left more than the right but i almost assumed implicitly that the right is a lost cause which. >> frankly i do to that it will not lead to leadership or to get off the corrosive path so any help they can find a

way to with that corrosive right. d . >> i don't believe it's aimed at the left but i have one chapter to explain the origins of identity politics. i think the origins are on the left. >> maybe i was projecting. [laughter] but the book was written because donald trump became president. so i don't think it is necessary with that scenario that you outlined is the case but elections matter and a lot of republicans and then they can realize it's a lost cause

and it could start to weekend but you can vote't for nothing so i do think the democrats in particular this i'm not that worried about because they are chosen locally with diversity in the swing states but in 2020 that will be a tough choice because the party is between the progressive array you have to choose one person that will represent the whole party and i do worry that they will be seen that they may lose him. >> to more questions. >> so earlier you talked about

a drive of nationalization beyond the freedom of speech so in my personal experience so if a tree falls and nobody hears it didn't really fall? but that isn't the same so i am wondering if you believe you are restoring the integrity? with freedom of speech and the right to vote? f

and reduce it that way wrestling so how do you use that with these assumptions? . >> the biggest misallocation of power has to do with money and american politics. [applause]us . >> so globalization has surpassed every country with a layer of oligarchs. there are rules on the left and on the right but even if they all agreed with you politically that is still a big problem because concentrated wealth as it is today with a political power.

you will never get to where every voice is equal but you can certainly make it less unequal than it is but a has to begin somehow in the realm of campaign finance and unfortunately the supreme court has made that extremely difficult we actually have a project at my center to figure out ways to strengthen elections and the nomination process without doing a constitutional amendment but there are things that can be done but you don't solve thatve problem your seven -year-old will never have the voice that he deserves. >> she. and stanford? . >> we have a program called american democracy where we

team up with reform ideas and how hard it is to change the constitution across the table right now. >> thank you for coming here. [applause] . >> he will be in the signing tent. have a great book festival. [inaudible conversations]

[inaudible conversations] . >> book tv coverage of the texas book festival from this weekend continue. [inaudible conversations] . >> hello everybody to the