this story. and if a voice can change a room, it can change a city. then at 9 p.m. eastern on afterwards, republican senator ben cases from nebraska talk about his book then why we hate eemp other and how to heal interview bid arthur brooks president of the american enterprise institute. i don't think it is a story of unmoment but it is spilling vacuum of declining local tribe and kind of tribes that make people happy, family, deep friendship, long-term shared vo kition or meaningful work. local worship and community. all of those things are being undermined by the moment we're at in technological history. >> watch this weekend on c-span2 booktv. now we bring you coverage of the festival of book in nashville first up a discussion on civil rights activist cleveland

sellers and photo journalist ernest who became informant for the fbi.ng someone right there my name is andrea black man and we're here at the public library welcome on behalf of the national public library on behalf of the southern we're excited so that each of you came out this morning under a beautiful fall morning to join us for a conversation that we started about 35 minutes ago so we've got to catch you up to where we are. joined by two esteemed journalist one adam mark and both of these men are journalist in scholar in their own right and they'll some timesharing hidden narrative and stories that we w know about some storis that we don't know about. one will chronicle life of an ironic photographer that many of us have seen his images and then he's going to debunk some of those mists and other will

introduce some of us in reintroduce to others a hidden figure in history and give us an idea of why we think that mr. seller should be on platform with every other civil rights icon so again we thank you for joining us today and start by introducing our journalist to tell us a little bit about who they are and we'll have this organic conversation if that works for everyone in here. okay. i'md adam parker i don't know if i'm asteaming journalist but i'm a steaming journalist that's for sure. [laughter] so i -- about 12 years ago or so i covered for post career and based in charleston i covered for the newspaper about a commemoration an annual commemoration of the orangeburg massacre who heard of the orangeburg massacre? okay. few of you. that's impressive.

most don't know if that massacre but wait until you hear what happened. so i went to cover this commemoration and i met cleveland who was caught up in the orangeburg massacre only one who went to jail paid a big price for it. he was scapegoated. and thent. i did it again i thik followingier and so on. so i got to know him a little bit and i got to know this important episode in civil rights history. and then -- a friend of mine jack bass who was a reporter in the 60s and 70s for this charlotte observer and who and "new york times" and others and who covered the orangeburg as it was happening he suggested that i write a profile of cleveland he's a good friend and an advocate in a way and he wants doctor sellers to receive more

recognition. and at that point knowing what i knew, i agreed. happily, and doctor sellers agreed what happily so we got together and i wrote a big long profile for the newspaper four part profile that ran on four subsequent sunday the each chapter was for newspapers, huge like 100 inches. and that led to the book about a year with later i pitched idea of the book and then i wrote this book. sellers is mostly known for if the orange massacre by nose who know about orangeburg massacre which is few people and what happened in 1968 february 1968 was -- that students on the campus of south carolina state college in orangeburg protested segregated bowling alley, and sellers was there, he was sort of his snick day he was part of the student

nonviolent leader in the organization but by this time 1968 his leadership was waning and he was kind of sick and tired of it and he was looking to change his life. he thought he would go back to school and he thought he would come back home. he lived very nearby and denmark just about -- half hour away. and -- d and he didn't like the idea of the kids protesting the segregated bowling alley that was so 1962 you know and this is 1968 and it is black power time it is time to pox bigger and better and bigger fish to fry so he watched on margins as students protested this bowling alley became increasingly frustrated and this led on the third day to a terrible, very violent event on campus of the national guard has been called in. statee troopers have been called in town was on lock down and a

group of students a large grouch students on campus unarmed were firedd upon with buck shot not bird shot but buck shot and three were killed at least 28 were wounded sellers was there trying to rescue people who had been shot he got shot in the armpit and thenee of course he s fingered as outside agitator. as the -- activist in orangeburg to stir up trouble not that it was home for him and not outsider and nevermind that he didn't even, he wasn't enthusiastic about the reasons for the protest. so -- that's what he's known for. and this was one of the most violent episodes of the civil rights movement it was really terrible.

and i decided that -- the biography, obviously, needed to span his whole life he had done these incredible things. and i wanted to put the orangeburg massacre in context if youill because it should be in context it was not just of his life experience. but of -- of the snick experience and civil rights experience in general. and i was a little concerned that the orangeburgs massacrefuls always this isolated thing always imagined as isolated thing and it's not isolated. it's part of -- the continue women of the fight of the civil rights fight. and it's important pinged to that. so that's the gist of the seed and that's what i did and that's what had i trieded to achieve is sort of write ark of his story and put that in context but explain also all of the rest okay i've spoken enough. your turn. [laughter]

that was impressive adam i work for 2-9d and a half years are at the commercial appeal daily newspaper in memphis. i recently left an now at the university of memphis running a -- one of these nonprofit investigative journalism centers that just started there. let me tell you how i got to write my book about ernest withers how many of you have heard of ernest withers about half -- well ernest withers was probably one of the most important photographers of the 20th century someone that most people never heard of. he took some of the seminal pictures that propelled movement forward -- starting from very dawn of the movement with trial of the killers on through all the way through the memphis sanitation strike and of dr. king and

beyond. there's a -- a haunting picture that he took during the trial of the two men who were on trial for killing them and being, of course, the young african-american teenager who came down from chicago was visiting relatives in mississippi delta abducted in the middle of the night and never seen again, and his body found threeig days later in a river, and -- authorities knew exactly who had done it, there's still, you know, intrigued to this day about whether others were involved and there probably were but main perpetrators they had them put on trial, they were acquitted -- it being 1955 and you know, in mississippi -- during the trial ernest was -- put off to the side this as what -- the black press they call it negro press therm kind of they

have the white press front and center andt then they were off o the side basically at a card table they were big names of -- of african-american journalist simi and booker was there and ernest was there taking pictures for the chicago defender and -- he the judge had forbid any photography during court session but ernest defied judge's order when emmet great uncle who was -- who emmet was there and on the stand an prosecutors asked him to identify the -- the defendant said that killers, and those rights stood up and pointed a long bonny finger at them and identified them and it wasnd at that moment that ernest took fabulous picture if you google it you can find it he never got credit for it

because -- inernest was hustling a living e had eight kids that he was raising, and got a big family he was a news photographer studio photographer, and as we learn he did other things to make money too. but a lot of times he would sell his film on the spot to -- told other news media and he sod his film and if you google this, moses write emmet hill, ernest withers although i think the -- about the finger getting -- the finger getty image or one of the big corporations actually owns the rights. but he never got credit but he did this sort of thing over and over and over again he was -- he was a -- a o freelance news photographer out of memphis, he covered all of big civil right squirmish in memphis and busboy cot in 1956 and he it can a beautiful picture of this one for doctor

king riding one of the buses out there and striking photo too like the composition of it is just fantastic where you've got dr. king up front and then behind them like had sea of white faces. like everything is turned right reversed around -- it is almost looks like i think, like a norman rockwell painting because -- the moment that it caught is -- almost as if everybody is oblivious to this moment and they're going about their every day housewives going out shopping and you know businessman on their way to -- it's a wonderful picture. you shouldma check it out but he did this time and time and time again. he covered the -- immigration of ole miss in '62 little rock school crisis in 1957 assassination of evers in 1963. on through to the, you know, dr. king3. assassination in memphis in 1968. so ernest you know was -- you know famous within certain

circles in -- his own right. toward the end of his life he, you know, he began doing books and his fame kind of grew. he never, you know, realized any real money out of any of this. but he was quite well known within the movement it was a movement inside and what was described as original civil rights photographer or, you know, also the eyes and ears of the movement because of all of these wonderful pictures he got. so my -- my book and my long project looking into ernest life kind of it revealed a otherred side that it was that ernest had secretly been wog for fbi for many years passing information for -- pictures and oral intelligence for 18 years and it all started as -- what's breasting that we have

journalists writing history now, but something else we were talking about before earlier today. but somebody has to do it. somebody has to do it. and a lot of these stories that are there, that are sitting there waiting to be mind, you've got to roll up your sleeves to involve gum chewing and digging this started out as a newspaper investigation. it started well, it started and went and stop and starts over a long too many. but i first heard about ernest working for fbi back way back in 1977 when i was covering -- james earl ray the convicted assassin of dr. king. he was still alive he had liver disease trying to get out of prison. and -- there was media from all over the world writing about this about and being in our backyard i had a lot of latitude to write about what was going on and i interviewed former -- police and there were a lot of conspiracy stories that were floated around and police and fbi agents military intelligence

and one told me the story of ernest that he worked as informant he was a great informant he knew everybody. he was valuable to them because he could help them index moment and he wanted to know who was who because they -- they, i mean, in all of these movements it was the peace movement it was a civil right the movement a labor movement it was a cold war. ande fbi, and the goth at large was freaked out by all of this unrest and that threat of communism and a soviet union and they thought they were looking for -- some and everybody was under suspicion so being a news photographer with no introduction who knew and been a police officer and that was as well you know, quite well known studio photography he knew everybody and he could help index this and he could give -- he could give them identification photos which was how dossier always starts he could give them home addresses name off relatives where they worked. you know who they associated

with. what groups they were with. on and on he was valuable to them so this came -- this evolved over, you know, my looking into this over a long period of time where -- it wasn't until ernest died in 2010 at age 85 that i started getting into it and -- did a freedom of information act request that's a long story in and of itself because fbi fought us for years on this. we wound up suing them and even though there's a law that they rest on, that allows, allows government to literally lie about informants they can tell you that this person was not informant which is what they did but through factors that came togetherso that they were able o reveal this. we have a sympathetic judge we had good lawyers. and they had to admit in court that he was informant that led to settlement of release of all of these documents that -- you know you can find them online now too but that really

are the -- are are the -- my book. so -- >> i want us to think about where we place both of these men in the the context of this larger narrative in this shifting paradigm of what we have built this civil rights movement up to be. and a historian not a journalist in referring to this time of where we have placed et above these iconic men and i want adam talk to us just a little bit if you don't mind about when them idea so we know that mr. seller took the backseat to carmichael he became -- just this shadow in the become until he bill a target. so talk to us a little bit about that whole idea and reason i'm bringing that up is because we know nashville connections to both of these men nashville kx to nick and change of leadership, nashville memphis connection here so outside agitator and mark you referred to mr. withers as being inside

man. talk to us a little bit about outside man. >> well him itself was behind scenes and in the background right so he was a grassroots organization, that very early on decided to launch voting -- voter registration campaigns in mississippi and bob moses went down there and then started recruiting other people an students volunteered so on and culminated in 1964 with the mississippi freedom summer, and itself operated somewhat quietly behind scenes, and within him the administration you know there was nobody really, it was very decentralizeized in a way and there wasas a chairman, john lewis was chairman for a while and carmickle chairman for a while so they were the face of the organization. but --

really it was run by everybody. you know all of the staffers and he got involved in 1963, and went to mississippi and joined the freedom summer effort went to atlantic city in august that year to the democratic convention which was really are a watershed moment a turning point in the movement and in the democratic party and in -- black history in america. and emerged as lieder but still nobody really knew who he was stokley elected chairman, and he was elected program manager. so he was like the number three guy in the organization. but he literally stood behind carmichael, in fact, if you look at picture inside bock you'll see that he's always in second row or third row there he is behind martin luther king, jr. and carmichael he's always there but a little bit in the background. he wanted to be in the background.

he was kind of a bureaucrat in a way. until he wasn't, until he resisted the draft. and went to jail -- and got headline it is in the newspapers for being one of the early resist draft resisters during the vietnam war. and he would get arrested all of time he was interesting because as in aside because they were so ahead of the curve they were protesting apartheid in early 60s in the early 60s we didn't know about apartheid until the 80s. right when ray begun and whole right -- so t then we started but he was way ahead. they were protesting -- neocolonialism in palestine and losing a lot of jewish support as a result of that position that they took in the middle 60s they were issuing white papers left and right so they were this kind of --

intellectual activist grassroots roll up your sleeves commit for the long-term krief group so they didn't garner headlines not in the same way that martin luther king, jr. did -- with fclc. so there's that. and it is very interesting, of course, orangeburg massacre came along and that really put him in headlines -- but not really because the orangeburg massacre was suppressed first misreported by press a little bit and other things started to overshadow it and after all of these were black students on black college campus so who cares state came along and that completely captured everybody's imagination and in the meantime orangeburg was worse than the state and sort of fell into the -- margins of history for too long. and still remains there. so it's -- it's sort of fascinating to see

the dynamic and important we both think to bring these figures out from the shadow and to show that they were not, they didn't do important work they did essential work they were really among the leaders. sellers thelses talks about hero and those of the movement that it wasn't just about martin luther king, jr. but civil rights movement would never have happened at all if it wasn't for other people doing all of the work. which isn't to take anything away from martin luther king, jr. who was incredible. but -- it's important to start recognizing some of the people a that's what's happening right now is is this current generation of scholar and journalist and historians are starting to shine a light into the crevice and into corners -- on to the secondary figures to flesh out the movement. there's still quite a lot of work to be done before we fully

appreciate civil rights movement and its impact on american history, and that's what i think isis starting to happen now. i mean it has been happening for maybe about ten or 15 years with this, and it continues to happen and very important work, i think. >> we're also questioning it gives us opportunity to question some of those previous paradigm and pillars that we put iconic figures on and done history disjustice by making them only figures that two or three generations grew up knowing so mark -- i want to talk a little bit about this whole infiltrating and how -- how was he able to literally infiltratee and still do his job aser a photographer we can't question his integrity or ethics be how was he able to smile in the face of a jen because again the national chapter fascinating

smile in the face of a jim lawson and still turn over the sameg images or file and what happened after needs iconic leaders realize what was going on? ernest was able to do this being ernest withering having access you know everybody knew him wng the movement, he was, you know, led into, you know -- strategy meeting and he was always part of the group so he just knew them all, and so, i mean, the access was -- he had incredible access something that -- the chief intelligence officer domestic intelligence and memphis out of the field office there -- bill lawrence recognized this in 1961 that a lot of unrest started bubbling up with nation of islam and open a mosque there in memphis, which was very, you

know, eye opening to the film you know basically lawrence was raised baptist so was ernest. you know they have mutual interest in religion and music that propelled them how erin e-wases able to do it -- without ethical twinge is that basically --al well one is, you know about the financial partba of it he was paid. he was fbi had, you know, scores of different kinds of context that they considered as, you know, various level of informers but ernest was among the select group a small god rate of paid directed informants pay the for his photographs paid if for his oral intelligence and so he was always, you know, he had a big family he had eight children and so the technology thing was big. but big motivation for hill but ideology as well ernest was older than many of the people in the moon that he reported on. as a matter of fact, he was a world war ii veteran who fought

and pacific p theater. so hefsz a patriotic individual more conservative certainly when it came to the peace movement you know and the whole you know -- common demonstration when dr. king came out against the war you know people forget. we look t at the vietnam war now as being unjust war but in its day most americans most african-americans supported the war and ernest was one of them so heca wasn't that different yu know is the movement started becoming more militant in early 60s the freedom riders and the national and a lot of direct action there were more conservative old per people in the movement who were very reluctant and there was a kaition studydy for a lot of waysic, you know turning new grungd as adam is with a lot of ground there for otherses to look at but, i mean, how the leadership of the naacp and

champions for civil rights in this leadership but nonetheless therm more of a conservative accommodation as mindset and they did not want, they have a mutual interest -- with fbi keeping unregs and what happened in civilol ma they didt want unrest in birmingham they wanted it more steady gradual course is what they wanted to take. so in that way ernest was older and naacp guy and memphis movement was run by the naacp. >> did he see did he think of it as a conflict of interest? >> i don't think so. he's i just doing. i don't think so. i think you know a lot of this -- particularly more militant part of it -- was younger grouch people and james --

he was good friends with james but he did not grow with what he was doing. he was basically you know if you know the story of jim, he was kind of the -- the father of the freedom rider movement he was influential in the national movement when they were trying to -- integrate accommodation with the epicenter fsz here this nashville and jim was, you know, had been doing you know direct, he spent time in india and had studied, and the nonviolent tactic giving for years leading up to this breakout movement so -- he was kicked he was kicked out of vanderbilt for that, and was arrested and basksly made a praia to leave the south left school in boston college and came back down south and then in 1962 settled in memphis and he

was not embraced by the -- by naacp leadership and trying to keep him at arm's length considered him two militant and ernest made a comment about him at one point in a history book that he did a picture in history book that heoi did not go. he thought that jim lawson was egocentric vimg out for himself stirring up a lot of agitating really was the view so he kicked back a lot of information about -- james lawson over the years. when i went through all of these reports with score and scores -- of reports and photographs, i counted i think it was 48 different incident in which he passed information about jim lawson now a lot of this stuff is pretty amazing how broad you know this -- domestic intelligence operation was because you know when the church committee this

congressional committee was looking into kind of the broad scope ofom the internal these domestic intelligence investigations, they referred to -- to fbi report is that there was like a vacuum cleaner they wanted all so many broad pieces of information so ernest kick back thing like -- lawrence the fbi agent that you know he give a sermon other day in his church questioning virgin birthn christ and so why is that valuable to the fbi? well they were always looking for leverage they were gathering details about his family and involvement with -- with the peace movement and trying to -- train young men and ways to dodge the draft or to either legally or extralegally get around it because lawson did not agree with the vietnam war or agree with war in general as a matter of fact he was a conscience who went to prison in early 50s because he would not

register for the draft. so -- i think it was this ideological difference but to get on point as well about about what adam was saying about, you know, breaking new ground and -- getting into these movements. you know one of the things is that kind of the broad ark of domestic intelligence -- operation it is that the fbi was runningme in this country in the 60s and 70s we've known that for year. because they were these investigative communities in the mid to late 70s that church committee was a big one you know that was exposing this but we don't know micro and these are what people are trying to dig in and i hope my book is valuable we know who were these informers. you know that the -- the fbi has protected the identity they've protect all as a matter of fact this -- there's -- i talked about their ability to lie, it is something called the --ts exclusions and people generally

know about exception where if you get a fbi report they'll redact certain information considered, you know, surveillance of privacy or trade secrets or national security. but the exclusions of the fbi aa low them to take hold, you know, hold batches of informs and treat it as if it doesn't exist like particularly about informants. they do not have to die them to fbi if they reveal identity they believe that it would inhibit their ability to recruit new because they make a promise you know to protect their identity forever so -- so it makes it very difficult a lot of times to figure out you know who, who were but that's the thing what were we sources and meths and what were doing this was the ground that, you know -- that i'm on and a i know some others are as well. >> can i just chime in and this -- it's interesting because there's a little bit of overlap,

obviously, between two books. actually more than a little bit. so i want to make a couple of quick observations. one is -- i would argue that the fbi was in general concerned about communism and all of these movements all of these movements -- but when it came to black freedomsi movement it was more than just that. there was, you know, clearly i think a racist element to it and there was -- there was an effort to do more than just disrupt there was an effort to destroy actually. there were assassination committed. there was a target assassination it was like really ugly and tell pro and the people bit mid-60s as they emerge from atlantic city, and the convention there having been betrayed by democratic party and rejected in

the status quo, and began to build their own kind of independent alternative democratic process, which then morphed into black power, the fbi freaked out, i mean, it wasn't just, it wasn't just let's let's try to disrupt this movement. they freaked out. and the people knew that they were informants among them by 66, 68 they knew they weren't quite sure who all of the time by they knew that sitting in their small sometimes small meetings somebody was feeding information to the fbi. so -- it wasn't just, you know, there was a -- a small network of informants blk blk and white and many

african-american some african-americans who were working with the fbi at the time and it would be fascinating to further research that and uncover who they were and what they function and what they did and suspicious they knew and understand but couldn't quite put their finger on it so the fbi file is about three inches thick and that's must be, i don't know -- right -- a show. yeah. right forget it because basically -- his fbi file was in large part of that tracking stokley but anyway -- another, another point i wanted to make was that the size of the movement -- was actually kind of small. ... think about it. we were talking about the older generation. and how they were relatively more conservative. they were little more timid.

anxious about this direct action phase of the civil rights movement. they were very comfortable with that. cleve's own father and mother did not want them to do this stuff. his father wrote this letter. come home and not dead, please. there was a generational divide there. very significant. it points to the fact, i think, the leaders of the direct action phase of the civil rights movement, 1960s, fundamentally were very courageous. they understood that they were literally putting their lives at risk. not just their lives, but other people's lives. we talked about this in the book talked about going to mississippi in 1964. after the three civil rights workers were murdered. i am responsible. not just for trying to get

people to vote, but if i get people to sign up to vote, their house will be firebombed. that is on me. he is like 19 years old. the burden and the courage that was required to be on the front line was so significant. when you add it all up, some of the other groups, there were a few hundred. several hundred, let's say, leaders of the civil rights movement. that is it. all of america. there were volunteers. a lot of white volunteers that went down to mississippi. a lot of liberals. including some of the white groups on college campuses and so on. the black freedom movement, there were not that many people. i think it's important to remember that. the ncaa cp was definitely useful and valued to a degree i

the direction action leaders. but, they were were very suspicious. they sorta played the game from within. they wanted to win in court. they had an amazing track record. they deserve huge credit for bringing us to that point in history where direct action could actually happen. and be effective. they continue to play a role. even cleve sellers i think reluctant to engage the ncaa cp lawyer. he wanted this more radical guy from atlanta to help him out.

within the system and the new way which was to fight. it sort of put an end to it. they are not placing 1960 or weathers or sellers in a vacuum or separating this idea of a movement. we are looking at what is going on globally. looking at what is going on throughout the organization where we tried to encourage saying stop the black messiah. we are looking at ongoing narrative. i want to give the audience a couple of minutes to engage with us. if they don't have any questions , i have about five more. i think i will be polite and give them an opportunity to ask questions if that's okay with you.

there is a microphone over here, if you would be so kind. please step to the microphone. let us know if you are addressed eating the question to either, both the mac i wanted to ask you, did mr. weathers, with all the information do any damage to the movement. the other thing i wanted to ask is kidnapping is a federal crime. did the fbi ever look at the crime involved in the abduction of the young boy in mississippi? >> they have. it was decades later. there were different phases. i think there was some open investigation right now.

this whole domestic intelligence what damage do they do to the movement. they did a lot of damage in many ways. one is adam's touching on this. different organizations knew they had informants. they just did not know who they were. there was this chilling effect. the whole right to dissent and protest. address your agreements. that is how our democracy, that is a the give-and-take. they think they will be ties. then they drop out. they will not participate. they are disrupting government itself. there was lots of damages to individuals in these operations. i actually have the slides here.

let show really quickly. thank you for the question. a good segue. >> i think that mike should be on low. >> if i push this button -- it works. okay. >> fred hampton was a black panther leader in chicago. he was killed in a police raid when they fired scores of rounds he was shot in his bed. evidence that he was even murdered by the police. the f vi help the local chicago police with that. they had it informant gets out the apartment. this is 1973.

he informed him. what you see here are are a series of pictures for the f vi. this was a black panther house. looking at this series of shot. first you have the broad panoramic view of the house. shot out in the distance. yet the close-up of the front porch. then you go around and then there's the black door. the fbi is not keeping the scrapbook. showing them the way you get in and out of this house. there are some black answers who talked about an attempted police

raid around that time. it was forwarded, all the details nail down there. another fred hampton type of situation. what damage did it do? the fbi was really freaked out about black power. they were highly motivated to do it. ideological reasons. the black panther movement had a certain mark to the philosophy tied to it. they figured it was a connection to moscow and what now. others were highly motivated to stop this. mccarthy -like investigations.

highly motivated to just completely eviscerate the main black power group there. homegrown group called the invaders. they not only wanted to go after them, but the sympathizers and associates, too. this lady here actually lives here in nashville. she was a field representative for the civil rights initiative in memphis in 1968. ernest and other informants were kicking back information. telling the fbi to sympathetic to the black power movement. her main associate, ernest and others had seen them at parties with black power advocate. they kept making these connections. the fbi tried to fire these two individuals. i've interviewed them and they are in my book.

at one point, ernest was at a march where he saw, this is actually a piece from that report. that is his code number. added during the october 5 sympathy march, also known as bobby doctor of the u.s. civil rights commission was with audrey. a volunteer. writing in the report married as his doctor. yet they were holding hands. ernest had a picture of this, photos holding. pernicious by m e3 38. ask yourself why would they want this picture? i've interviewed bobby. i never had an affair with her. i was married.

whether they actually acted on this or not is unclear. they wanted to use to contain these activists. there were lots of other examples of this. they tried to damage a number of people. he was convinced that he had a target on his back. he thought and others thought that one of the three students who was killed sort of resembled sellers. sellers was the target.

there is no evidence for this. he was convinced of this. mind you, this is is early 1968. by now, black power is in its mature phase, more or less. the fbi is eager to quash it. there was actually good reason to fear for one's life. after orangeburg, he thought his life was in danger. his parents thought his life was in danger. he fled his home state of south carolina. giving up the idea of enrolling in south carolina state. he went into greensboro north carolina. this impacted his life profoundly. he ended up in a good place it

turned out. doing a lot of productive things in greensboro. that wasn't his choice. he was far from his family. his parents fell ill. he scrambled to get back 20 years later. as his parents were dying. having missed something. that otherwise may have transpired. >> thank you. do we have questions? >> the family of mr. weathers is pretty protective.

were you able to use some of those photographs were they not too thrilled about it. >> from the beginning when i revealed it there was astonishment and denial. early on by his circle of supporters. they kind of morphed over the years in two different things. i don't know where they stand right now. there was no cooperation. i do not use any of his images. even any of the stuff that's in the fbi files. i think that there are questions about copyright issues. even though, as a matter of fact, a good good legal advisor told me there is no public records wash. even though these are public records, you can find the stuff on my now, probably he still

owns the rights to these. the images are not in the book. but, -- you can google them. you can find them. you can study them. you just probably cannot publish them in a book for profit. not sure where the legality about all of that is. >> time for one final question. what good things that he go on to do? he got himself on the political read this time.

the anti-communism rally. organizing this railing. shooting up for people. it was this horrible episode in greensboro. it ultimately, i think, in the '90s, resulted in the truth and reconciliation process that serves as a model or should serve as a model for the orangeburg massacre which has never been fully investigated by the state of south carolina which remains a festering wound. cleve was working for the city at the time and he helped organize about a year after the violence or sometime after the violence a rally and the authorities were terrified that the rally would go south and be

violent. he helped put it together and convince everybody. he was involved in that. greensboro, a black power anti-colonialism worldly effort to further the cause of black power and black identity. he then went on to pursue a career in academia. he taught as a lecturer at cornell. at harvard he taught in a few places. then he came back to south carolina. he did a stint at chapel hill.

then when he came back to south carolina he eventually got a job with the university of south carolina and ran the program for 10 years there. it really old started and build it up into what it is today. then he went back to denmark. too perfect. too ridiculous. it's like a cliché. he really went full circle and ended up back in denmark as president where he attended high school. he went all the way back home and all the way back to the same school where he was a high school student. now he is a college president. there he is today living today in denmark. >> if you want to know more about what he did, he's got a pretty famous son and daughter, if you want to know more about both of these gentlemen and how one infiltrated the movement, one also stayed in the shadows.

please join me in thanking both of the guests and authors. [applause] join us on the plaza. they will be signing books. a free event and any support and donation can be made possible out on the plaza. if you have not had a chance to visit the civil-rights room, go upstairs on the second floor. thank you so much for coming out. >> thank you. >> you are watching book tv on c-span two. top nonfiction books and authors book tv. for serious readers. next up from the