. >>. >> i work here at the public library on behalf of the southern festival of the books and to join us for a conversation and with those

two esteem to journalist both of these men are journalist and with those hidden narratives and those that we don't know about and then to debunk some of those myths and then to reintroduce to others ahead and figure to give us an idea why we think that should be on the platform with every other civil-rightsry platform so thank you for joining us today i will start by introducing our journalists and they will tell us who we are - - who they are. >> good morning forgot i am adam parker i don't know if i am the esteemed journalist but

i am a steaming that is for sure. [laughter] so about 12 years ago i covered and i worked for the career i worked for the newspaper or a commemoration of the massacre. that is impressive most people don't know but wait until you hear what happened i went to cover this commemoration i met doctor cleveland sellers that paid a price it was a scapegoat. and then i did it again the following year and i got to know him a little bit and this important episode of civil rightsno history.

and then a friend of mine, jack was a reporter for the charlotte observer and who covered the massacre as it was happening suggested i write a profile. she is a good friend and he wants doctor sellers to receive more recognition. and at that point knowing what i knew, i agreed happily and doctor sellers agreed so i wrote a big long profile for the newspaper and that led that i wrote this book. sellers is mostly known from

those that know about the orangeburg massacre that very few people and february 1968 is the students on the campus of south carolina state college in orangeburg protested a segregated bowling alley and sellers was there from his sncc days his leadership was waiting and sick and tired of it and was looking to change his life. he thought he would go back to school or come back home. and he did not like the idea protesting the segregated bowling alley that is so 1962

it is time for black power to focus on bigger and better with bigger fish to fry. he was not too enthusiastic and to become increasingly frustrated to a terrible event on campus state troopers were called in the town was on lockdown and a group of students unarmed and on campus were fired upon with buckshot and three killed and 28 wounded sellers was there trying to rescue people he was shot in the armpit and then of course, fingered as the outside agitator that sncc activist who came to stir up

trouble. nevermind he was a very even enthusiastic the reasons for the protest so that is what he is known for so this was really terrible and i decided the biography needed to scan his whole life he did incredible things that i wanted to put this into context because it should be it was part and parcel not just his life experience but of the sncc and civil-rights experience in general and i was a little concerned the orangeburg massacre was an isolated thing and it isn't

isolated, it is part of the continuum of the civil rights fight and it's important to do that. so that's what i try to achieve the arc of the story but then also of the rest and now i have spoken enough. your turn. >> i am a journalist from memphis from 29 and a half years with the nonprofit investigative journalist centers and with my experience so how many of you have heard of ernest o rivers?

he was probably one of the most important photographers that most people had never heard of they were some of those seminal pictures starting from the very dawn of the movement in 1955 from emmett till through the memphis strike and beyond there is a haunting picture he took during the trial of the two men that were on trial for killing emmett till of course, the young african-american teenager that was visiting relatives was plucked from his home in the middle of the night and never seen again his body was found three days later in a river the authorities knew exactly who had done it they are still

intrigued to this day if others were involved but the two main perpetratorsthwo they were put on trial and acquitted being 1955 but during the trial ernest was put off to the side the negro press was front and center with some of the big names of the african-american journalists that were there taking pictures and the judge forbade any photography during the session. but they defied the judges order when emmett till's great

uncle who he was staying with and was there the night he was abducted he was on the stand that prosecutors would ask him to identify the defendant, the killers he stood up and pointed a finger at them and identify them at that moment there was this fabulous picture if you google it he never got credit for it because he was always hustling a. living. he had eight kids he was raising with a big family and a news and studio photographer but if you googleif this moses right emmett till.

one of these big or corporations actually owns the right he was a freelance out of memphis with those several - -- civil-rights skirmishes and with that montgomery right bus boycott he got pictures with king and abernathy down there and is a striking photo with that composition is fantastic with doctor king up front so everything is turned and reversed around. it is like the painting it's almost as if everybody is oblivious to this revolutionary moment they are

shopping and businessmen it's a wonderful picture you should check it out but they did this time and timee again to cover thee integration of ole miss little rock, the assassination and 63 doctor king's assassination in 1968 so he was famous within certain circles in hisin own right toward the end of his life he began doing books he never realized any money out of it but was quite well known and was described with the original civil-rights photographer also the eyes and ears of the movement so my

bookg reveals another side that ernest was secretly working yearshe fbi over many passing information pictures and intelligence and getting paid for it for as long as 18 years and it all started with interesting we get journalist writing history. >> somebody has got to do it. a lot of the stories you have to roll up your sleeves this started off as a newspaper investigation it would go in starts and stops way back in

1997 covering james earl ray the convicted assassin of doctor king. . >> and being in the backyard i had a lot of latitude in the interview former police and fbi agents who told me the story of ernest withers that he worked as an informant and knew everybody was valuable to them they wanted to know between a and c who was who. the peace movement, the labor movement and with all of this unrest and the threat of communism they thought we were

looking for subversives and everybody is under suspicion so to be a news photographer needing no introduction in a quite well known studio photographer he knew everybody and then relatives where they workeded what groups they are with. so this evolved not until ernest died in 2007 they started to get into it that was a long story in and of itself?ou we wound up suing them and

even though there is a law that they rest on it allows the government to lie about informants they can tell you this person was not an informant to have a sympathetic judge. >> and to think about where we place these men as a larger narrative in a shifting paradigm i am a historian and not a journalist but where we have placed both of these iconic men so i would like to talk about this whole idea.

we know that he took the back seat to carmichael he became a shadow in the back until he was at target. so talk about that whole idea of sncc because we know the national connection to the change of leadership so talk about sncc and the outside agitator that you referred to as mister withers as the inside ma man. >> sncc itself was a little bit behind the scenes it was a grassroots organization that very early decided to launchga voter registration campaigns in mississippi moses went down then started recruiting other people and students volunteered and that culminated in 1964 mississippi freedom summer.

so sncc itself operated quietly behind the scenes and within sncc the administration it was very decentralized for thee most part the chairman had the prominent one stokely carmichael so they were the face but really it was run by everybody all the staffers and police were involved in 1963 and went to mississippi to join the freedom summer effort went to atlantic city to the democratic convention which was a watershed turning point in the movement of the democratic party in black history in america and then emerged but stokely was

elected chairman and one was elected program manager said he was the number three guy but literally stood behind stokely carmichael. if you look at t the pictures you will see that. he is there but just a little bit in the background he was a bureaucrat in a way and tell he wasn't and resisted the draft and went to jail and got headlines during the vietnam war and was arrested all the time but sncc was interesting as an aside they were so ahead of the curve we did not know

about apartheid until the eighties but sncc was way ahead they were protesting the neocolonialism and losing a lot of jewish support and then roll up your sleeves commit for the long-term type of group but not much like martin luther king did with clc. but the massacre came along but the orangeburg massacre

was suppressed. first it was misreported by the associatedd press this is just black students on a black college campus so who cares? can state came along and that completely captured everybody's imagination in the meantime. but orangeburg was worse than can state. and it still remains there so it is more and to see the dynamic. but they were the leaders bestsellers himself talks about the heroes in the shearers of the movement but that never would have happened if not for these other people doing all the work which doesn't take anything away from martin luther king that

was incredible. so now this current journalist is shining a light into the crevices and the corners of the secondary figures to flesh out the movement and that was happening now and has been ten or 15 years and it continues to happen. . >>. >> have these iconic figures by also making them the only

that two or three generations. so i want to talk about this and how could he infiltrate and still do his job as a photographer we cannot question the integrity or the ethics but this is the national chapter and still turnover the same images or files? what after these iconic leaders realize what was going on he could do this because of who he was and everybody knew him within the movement invited to strategy meetings and with doctor king showed up he was part of the group so he

had incredible access that the chief intelligence officer bill lawrence recognize this very early on with the unrest that started to build up with the nation ofio islam that was very eye-opening as he was raised baptist and so was ernest they had mutual interest of music and religion and how he could do that without the ethical twinge is basically with the scores of

the different context but of paid directed informants and he had a big family and eight children. that was a big motivation but that was more than those in the movement as a world war ii veteran in the pacific theater a patriotic individual coming to the peace movement and then doctor king came out against the war we see that is unjustified in its day most african americans supported the war.

he wasn't that different but as it became more militant with the freedom writers there are older people who were very reluctant and memphis was a good case study and there was a lot of fertile ground to look atd that that leadership of the naacp but that conservative accommodating mindset and with that mutual interest with the fbi to keep that unrest out they didn't want it from birmingham or albany they wanted a more stat on - - steady and gradual course ernest was older and

naacp. >> did he think of it as a conflict of interest? . >> i don't think so. particularly the more militant part of that. he was good friends of james that he was the father of the freedom writer movement that was a seminal movement that people hear about but the epicenter was in nashville he spent time in india with those

nonviolent tactics with the breakout movement he was kicked out of vanderbilt for that he just needed to come back down south and to consider him to militant. because of that history book and then was agitating.

and then to go through all these reports scores and scores of reports and photographs i count 48 different incidents and a lot of this is pretty amazing this domestic intelligence operation was because it looked at the broad scope it was a vacuum cleaner so it would kick back things like the fbi agent that he was questioning the virgin birth of christ.

with details of his family and involvement and the peace movement to train young men to dodge the draft legally because lawson did not agree as a matter of fact he was a conscientious objector because he would not register for the draft. there was that ideological difference what adam was saying to break new ground with that broad archive and test it on - - domestic intelligence we have known that for years that but we

don't know the micro. trying to dig in. who were these reformers? so that ability to lie about informants it was called the foia exclusions people generally know about those exemptions if you get the fbi report they will redact information but those exclusions to treat that as if it doesn't exist. to use them even after they are dead if they would reveal the identity.

but those were the sources and the methods this is the discovery that i am on. >> can i just chime in? it is interesting there is overlap from those two books so i want to make some quick observations and one is i would argue the fbi in general was concerned about communism and all these dissident movements but when it came to the black freedom movement it was more than just that it was clearly the racist element and

there was an effort to do more than just disrupt an effort to destroy and assassinations were committed. went from being betrayed by the democratic party and began to build the alternative democratic process. that would morph into black power the fbi freaked out. it wasn't just let's disrupt thatat dissident movement it freaked out and those people

knew there were informants from sncc they were not quite sure who it was all the time but sitting in those small meetings somebody was feeding information to the fbi. there was a small network of informants who were working with the fbi at the time and that would be fascinating to further research that and how they function and what theyow did. l but they couldn't quite put their finger on it. the fbi file was 3 inches thick. so stokely that must me, i don't know? [laughter] forget it.

dove that tracking stokely. but the size of the movement was kind of small when you think about it so those of the older generation were relatively more t conservative and timid and anxious with the civil rights movement and were uncomfortable with that. his own father and mother's father wrote to this letter i want you to come home and not dead please. there was a generational divide that was very significant and it points to. the fact the leaders of the direct action phase from the sixtiess fundamentally and then

to put their lives at risk but other people's lives. and then in 1964 after those workers were murdered and i am responsible not just to get people to vote but if i get people to sign up to vote they could be murdered or be firebombed. and that courage it when you add it all up for slc or sncc there were a few hundred and leaders of the civil rights movement?

in all of america and then there were volunteers from the north or liberals if we include the white groups on college campuses. but on the front line of the freedom movement there were not that many people but i think it's important to remember that. the naacp was useful even valued it to disagree by that direct action leaders but they were very suspicious they wanted to win in court and they had the amazing track record there is huge credit to bring us too that point where direct action could be effective. then they continue to play a secondary role going forward and then to get them out and

then to engage the naacp lawyer. and then to help them out of jail so it was an interesting dynamic and a tug-of-war within that movement itself the old and new generation and the new way to fight the system and transform the. system. >> what makes both of these books unique they are not placing winners or losers in a vacuum to look and to

encourage to stop by the rise of the black messiah so with the ongoing narrative want to giverr the audience if they don't have any questions i have five more. [laughter] but i will be polite to give them an opportunity please step to the microphone let us know if you are dressing. >> so mister weathers with all the information to the fbi do any damage to the movement? if kidnapping is a federal crime to the fbi ever look at the crime involved in the

abduction of the young boy in mississippi? . >> with emmett till there are different phases. there may be an open investigation right now the fbi did that everybody had passed on but with damage that is a great question the church community was looking at the whole domestic intelligence operations and then to touch on this. and just didn't know who they were. that was a chilling effect but to address your grievances to the government that is the

whole engine for democracy they think they will be stigmatized but then they drop off or don't participate to disrupt government itself. . >>. >> okay. this definitely and i will preface this by how many of you are familiar with the story of fred hampton? a black panther leader in chicago and scores and

evidence to be murdered by the police but the fbi helped the local police the informant sketched out the interior of the apartment but in 1973 but to have the movement and all facets he was on the nation of islam the black power movement in the black panthers that series of pictures for the fbi and it is all from the fbi release first you have that view ofro the house and then you

go around. the fbi isn't keeping a scrapbook they are showing the ways to get in and out of the house. the former black panthers that there was around that time that this could be another fred hampton situation. but the fbi was freaked out about black power and they wanted to stop this. they were highly motivated. for those ideological reasons the black panther movement that there was a connection to

moscow with those mid to late sixties with the riots in new york and detroit that caused wide property damage and death and others were highly motivated to stop this. but that mccarthy -like investigations in memphis highly motivated to eviscerate that black power group called the invaders but the sympathizers and associates so actually living here in nashville for the civil rights commission inht memphis in 1968 and other informants are kicking back information.

that she is too sympathetic to the black power movement her main associate with black power and they kept making connections. they tried to fire these two individuals. and at one point it was a piece from that report. that is is code number. with the sympathy march so bobby doctor the us civil rights commission and was a volunteer with us to write

damaged but yet was holding hands. he had a picture holding hands so ask yourself why would they want this picture? he said i never had an affair with her. you've got me with somebody else but i was never involved with her. but whether he acted on this or not but it is hard to know they were collecting damaging details they wanted to contain the activist. so that damage question there are other examples but individuals were damaged.

>> sellers was damaged after the massacre he was convinced he had a target on his back he and others thought one of the three students that was killed resembled sellers and really he was the target. but he was convinced of this. this was early 1968 so now black power is in the mature phase more orma less. and eager to quash that and there was good reason to fear for one's life. that his life was in danger his parents thought his life

was in danger he fled his home state and gave up the idea and rolling out south carolina state and went into was self-imposed exile to north carolina for 20 years and struggled to find a job with his criminal record at first. little by little rebuild his life and ends up in academia. so ending up in a good place in productive and important things but that was not the choice and far from his family. instructor - - as his parents were dying. and having missed something that may not have transpired but it had great profound effects but even more broadly

to chart out the house to get in and kill people. . >> when you ask a reporter a simple question it takes a long time but when i'm very anxious to know when they found out you were doing this sot there was astonishment and deny all. and then to do those things i don't know where they stand right now this isn't the authorized biography but i

don't use any of his images even in the fbi files because i think there are questions about copyright issues even though as a matter of fact good legal advisor told me there is no public record to quash even though these are public records you can findub it online, mprobably he still owns the rights so the images are not in the book but you can google them and find them. you can study them but not publish them that's anything for profit. i'm not sure about the reality but yes. . >> and mister sellers wanted to do good things what good

things did he go on to do? . >> and greensboro he got a city job and he found himself in involved on the periphery this time in the seventies of this terrible anti- communism rally the communist party and greensboro basically took up the clan on its threat and organized this rally and sure enough the clan shows up and shoots up the rally and kills people it was a horrible episode in greensboro that ultimately i think in the nineties resulted in a truth and reconciliation process interestingly serves as a model or should for the orangeburg massacre which has never been fully investigated

by the state of south carolina and remains a festering wound and he helped to organize but the rally would go south but not to have the colosseum and it went off very well to coordinate with law enforcement and involved in the establishment of malcolm x. university in greensboro which is black power and to

further the cause of black power and black academia. and then to come back to south carolina god a job with university of south carolina running the african-american studies program to build that up into what it is today. it's too perfect it's almost ridiculous he went back to denmark it's almost a cliché he went full-circle as president of the college where he attended college. all the way back home to the

same school he was a high school student now a college president and there he is today. innt denmark. . >> he is a pretty famous son and daughter. if you want to know more one how infiltrated and stayed in thee shadows that should be part of the daily conversation please join me to think bothh of our authors join us on the plaza day event is free and any donation can be made out on the plaza thank you so much for coming out. [aus