tough vote count, i think that's hard to do. >> let's continue our conversation out in the foyer afterwards. [applause] [inaudible conversations] >> you are watching booktv on c-span2. for a complete schedule visit booktv.org. you can follow along behind the scenes on social media @booktv on twitter, instagram and facebook. >> good afternoon and welcome to the mcgowan theater here at the national archives. i'm david ferriero, the archivist of the united states

and then please you could join us whether you are here in the auditorium for joining us to our youtube station and a special welcome to our c-span booktv viewers. before we hear from kyle longley about his new book, "lbj's 1968" i i like to play but other programs coming up here in the mcgowan theater. this evening at 730 done back in partnership with the center for the constitution, james madison montpelier, present a panel discussion about the united states constitution in a program entitled for us, bias, america's trust in an expectation of the constitution. moderated judy woodruff will lead the discussion of the results of a national survey conducted by james madison montpelier grade with the goal of better understand how americans relate to our government and founding document. document. on wednesday september 26 at noon mark leave of which will be

here to tell us that his latest book, big game, the nfl in dangerous times and it looks i will follow the program. you may think a sports book is strange fodder for the national archives what we're getting ready for a big exhibit in 2020 on all american, sports in the united states. so check our website, archives.gov our site of outside the theater because fema updates, , you'll find informatn about other national archives programs and activities. another would get more involved in the national archives is to become a member of the national archives foundation, the foundation support all of our activities and there's an application on the website, archives foundation.org or you can join. the unit consists it was a year of turmoil come to the left a deep impression of those who lived through it. newspaper and the nightly news

record with stories of unrest, civil rights, assassinations and looming over all that come the war in vietnam. upstairs in the gallery our exhibit remembering vietnam examines the war from its world war ii origins to the fall of saigon. in the section that covers the events of 1968 you will find a page from lyndon johnson's marce nation. including his speech he made a surprising announcement that he would not run for president in the coming election. lbj reflected back on 1968. i sometimes felt i was living in a continuous nightmare. it was a your challenges and return to kyle longley now to hear how lbj meant to a very happy to introduce kyle who happens to be one of the news staff nurse to join the administration come in late july kyle became the fifth director of the lyndon baines johnson

library in austin, texas. he came to us from arizona state university where he was a professor of history and political site and held a number of administrative positions including associate director of the school of historical philosophical and religious studies, and faculty of history department. he acted the national academic organizations including the american historical association of organization of american historians and the society of historians of american foreign relations. kyle is a a prize-winning auths publish edited eight books with another coming out in january 2019. he's also contributed to "newsweek", the "washington post," "new york times" and the los angeles times. ladies and gentlemen, please welcome kyle longley. [applause] >> will and i'm so happy to be here in d.c. although i joked we've had two weeks worth of

rain in austin. i have seen some is hoping to get away from the unfortunate i came to more rain but we are happy we were getting drained but 12 and half inches over two weeks is a little much for me, special after leaving arizona would get eight inches for the whole year. it has been a transition but i'm so happy to be here, and happy to be part of the national archives staff. i am so fortunate, and leading a library in which i've always worked in a release for the last 20 years, and it has an incredible step and this one of the recent when they called me to ask me to apply for the job i suggest, because i knew it was an incredible place to be with an incredible archivist, people develop amusing. in fact, we tie in very well. we are about to finish a series called get in the game but race and gender in american society which is been our major exhibit since april. we are looking to another one starting next april in motown. so again leading such an

organization within the larger organization has been a great honor and will continue to be. but it and for happy to come in today to talk to you about lbj in 1960. david did an incredible job. we did it ordinate on this, of setting up the presentation. what i want to do today is it's a larger book and looks at major issues like the pueblo incident, the tet offensive, assassinations of robert kennedy and martin luther king, the failed fordyce affair, nomination, and democratic national convention. many of you look across room there are few view i think they probably were fhm and over this, not many but a few might have. people always ask me what member and i said i was tired so i don't remember a whole lot but as a sort of got to know the topic quite well. again this is the place can do something this meant a lot to give up because many people have

-- i will tell a quick story, david, the first amendment in the first they did was i present him with a copy of my book knowing that he himself was a veteran and i do appreciate all of national archives has done especially this past year with her exhibition on the net. this is something we'll continue to discuss. it's not going away. i taught it covers most almost i was at arizona state. people would say are they getting tired of the? the answer is unequivocally no. the '60s, unequivocally no. let me start the day, and david did a great job me setting this up again without us even planning on going to spend my entire presentation on the marci would bet many of you that were old enough to remember exactly when we heard that announcement. i found the time and time again. i'd like to step that up and use as sort of my play, understand the book covers a great deal more but to give a shotgun

approach i don't think it would be no effective diving into one particular entity that i would argue was a transformative time or watershed in american history that is the march 311960 speech which been transformed even more so the rest of the year. it begins sunday march 31, starting with the early morning wake-up call for the president johnson and his wife lady bird huard to dress crisco meet ther daughter who just taken a red eye flight from san diego. there she left behind her husband, chuck, captain chuck was preparing to head the vietnam. tired and somewhat pregnant linda arrived and 70. she looked exhausted. so much so that lady bird dr. wenstrup as appearing like a ghost, pale, tall and to be. lbj concurred. noting she seemed lonely and bewildered.

as the war separation of war and separation were cruel intrusions into her young life. obviously distraught after leaving her husband, linda looked at about and as, quote, why was her husband going away to five? and maybe die for people who did not even want to be protected, end quote? speeches lbj said you want to confront her or comforter i could not. her question deeply wounded her father. lady bird found in afterward and observe his face was saggy and there was such a pain in his eyes as i do seen since his mother died. and it is vietnam that will ultimately be the achilles heel as one person described, the arsenic that will bring down the johnson presidency. that bitch of the one of the set of the world of the present sometimes refer to the quagmire consumed him. it consumed the country with daily reminders on television

and newspapers of the dead and others became probably disabled, johnson really went anywhere without someone protesting u.s. involvement in southeast asia. it would cause him to go from wild mood swings between anger and melancholy and it had a dramatic effect. by 9 a.m. that morning he headed to the west hall to meet with his former speechwriter who occasionally came in and it special speeches for him. here, take some notes, johnson instructed his old friend. busby worried. and keep in mind the president in the stadium speech in january had carried a speech announcing he would not seek reelection. busby had written it at the time that the last month the president decided not to pull it, partly, , decided to pull i. busby worried this would be another repeat on the january state of the union. so he asked the president very

earnestly, and he said, are you really serious about this? johnson response, i don't know whether i would live out another four-year term. i want out of this cage. busby knew that many people opposed the president not seeking reelection. one that is coming up now right on 16 years 16 used to the datn harry truman had made the same decision. but busby presses him and says everyone around you think you will do anything to hang onto power. this is, this impression has covered the whole public reaction to your presidency. and he continued, i personally feel that if you take this step it will help in the long-term people to see better all that you've accomplished in your administration. johnson response, yes, i think you're right. i think that is very compelling. after a a short pause they continue their conversation.

johnson says to busby, i rather like what you wrote in january. he instructed busby to put together a draft, and state in the treaty room and work on it. don't let a soul know you are over here. then he headed towards the elevator. and there is asked him the obvious question, what do you think your chances are going through with it? the president stop, stop for a moment and replied, 80-20 against it. so the president handed headed out to church, over to saint dominic said. the day before been a very warm and pleasant day the cherry blossoms were in bloom. this day was dark and rewritten and radio. in some ways reflected both the mood of the president and the country. as he sat there at saint dominic catholic church, he thought to himself, whenever i i walk thrh

the red room and saw the portrait of woodrow wilson and either, powerless to move with the machinery of an american government in disarray around him. this is going to be an important factor on why the president decides not to seek reelection. he talked about his serious heart attack in 1955. if you don't like i will just digress. he almost died in 1955. he was out in northern virginia visiting a lobbyist, and it was ironic about it, he's in the process of having a major coronary so they decide to need to get back to bethesda. they search for a nebulous. there's no angles to be found. they ultimately decide they will send him in a hearse and the driving and her some northern virginia to bethesda. when he gets there, the first question he asked the doctor is, will i be able to continue to smoke? the doctor said obviously no. he says can i have one last one?

the doctor goes, okay, one last one. as he finishes the cigarette, he flatlined. that's a close he was to death and it had a dramatic effect as well as that of his family history with that of the johnson and lived past 60. he has agreement but a stroke and you sit there in the family parlor and not be able to communicate, and those things sink into his mind. he didn't want to end up like woodrow wilson. but there always other things. the stress was hyper summer of 1967 had been a horrible summer with the race riots in detroit and newark. vietnam, the protest in the streets. talking to a friend before, maybe talking about one of your fellow colleagues. he was talked about his mom and dad took him to war protest and how remembered the march in washington and things like that as a young child. so johnson ultimately settles, i think a couple things are important, he says the issue of

vietnam has included divisions of hostility among americans, as i had feared. sitting in that pew, heal some of the moons that restore unity to the nation, the speech might help do that. i deeply hope so. there's another level to it, that is now been added. it's personal. his son-in-law, one was in in e process of writing to vietnam and the other, lucius husband was impressed at shipping up it with the next four to six weeks. it's on the became even more. this is an say he didn't let every casual effective turkey was deeply wounded. he was deeply affected. you see that in the of my book, that famous shot of him in the cabinet room with his head in his hands as his listening to chuck ross outline the loss of several men.

by 1968 it'd taken a terrible resolve. i know some are sitting there saying he brought on himself. to a degree that is to put through a lot of other factors pushing him. he always commented, my favorite what is, i was like a big old catfish looking at it were knowing it's on a hook and unable not to bite into it, when he was talking vietnam. there's others, the texas hailstorm, a number of other things. so as he left he announced to lucy and he was hoping for a good response, that, i'm really happy you do this but she said it's former collocated than that. but i can't. deep down here's what you think is important. not everybody will agree with this and not everyone has, i truly believe there were two major things playing out here. what is his health. he did not think is going to make it past, and the day after richard nixon, if i'm not mistaken, the day after richard

nixon is inaugurated in 1973, linton johnson dies, massive coronary. but again he also sees this as a chance to resurrect his legacy. natalie just vietnam is also focusing on arms control tried to get arms control with the soviet union also trying to do some work with the chinese. all related of course, all triangulated to vietnam. it's always the first thing and leslie that he thinks about for the most part in each and every day. but it's important to keep in mind. so that afternoon he went around, he sort of plato is a typical linton johnson. he would go to different people and ask what opinion was. but he did come back to busby and this was after din to church and after he sort of made his rounds around the white house. as he burst in when he came back to visit, busby notes his long face sex can the from this was gone, a deep melancholy filled

his eyes and he seemed impossibly tired. the president asked him, judge,, how much have you finished? a sentence or two, which was his normal way of editing. instead, busby handed him four pages and johnson's our chance to meet flew up when he said dan, you must really want me out of this town. johnson circles the room, playing with going in his pockets, the jiggly sound disturb the quiet of the room. finally he explained this reach much better. he slept busby on the short laugh loudly, you may make a speech writer yet. considering lusby had written his most famous ones in 1964 and 65 that was quite a compliment. the president took the draft and a quarter hour later returned and again he starts pacing the room.

his eyes going to the ceiling, and after a few minutes he moves to a small circular table in the middle of the the room i took t his and started scrolling notes. he could never cope without editing. finished editing come he took the cat started out with a stopped here, you better take this. i'm going over to the west wing for a while and it might fall out of my pocket. laughing heartily, he winked, i do want this falling into the hands of the enemy. after this he went and delivered it the message to some important people but especially his wife. he met with arthur crim and his wife, matilda, as well as lady bird. here he is sort of outlining what the last second of the speech and of that most of you remember this was very much. accordingly i shall not seek and would not accept the nomination of my party for another term as your president. you can't mean this. oh no, oh no.

but lady bird stunned somewhat started taking notes, typical believer. she was already preparing. but she knew, he knew she had an ambivalent about this. she would never judgment she knew if we lost, well, well and good, we are free. but simultaneous she acknowledged but if we didn't want we could be free without all the training of our friends. deep down though she still feared he would not do it. she had seen this throughout his career whether it be in 1964 or by before the olympic city convention where you say i don't need to run, i'm not going to win, how can these people respect me? back to 1940 1940 when he goesc into depression as severe fighting at the close of the cinemascope the democratic nomination. but she still thought and she did enunciate, maybe it was the calm that she did say maybe it was time, abie was the calm the

note in his voice and maybe we believed him for the first time. he returns to busby again, again this song advance, they are all against you. you better never ever go to the west wing again. busby thought to himself, well, i knew him a similar than testing all the reaction. still deliberating, still want to know what others thought for use with the finally thought, this is not abnormal and outside of his thought. kiko said andy praises of this and disappear like it's going to become more final. within half hour he returns with his trusted assistant and after making a few minor adjustments, he hands it to her, the draft to her, to type it and then exits. as their significant busby sitting in the room make a few more change, she sat next and sing nothing but obviously angry. what do you think about it works i will type it. are you for? i am not.

this is going to be important because it were a lot of district they didn't want the president stepping out. they thought several things would be a problem. when it sometimes people are presented and said he was just like when one because robert unity had gotten in the race and he didn't relish a fight with robert kennedy. my argument is look at polling numbers, look at the structure in march 1968, and johnson still had a very good chance of winning. several things, mccarthy and kennedy would split their vote. two of the system at the time was basically a unit rule where basically it was all superdelegates with only a few respecting their primary results. johnson's polling numbers are fairly high compared, they had polling numbers in march of 1968 against anyone and he won including nixon by substantial margin. only nelson rockefeller got close to johnson in those polls.

i think that is a mistake to think jobs would run away from a fight especially against bobby kennedy who he despised. i put him up to johnson in robert kennedys competition up there with hamilton and burr and desert you i can match as far as an american history. i've listed on facebook, , i sad to my friend who compares? there were not many. he did have some support, including governor john connally one of his closest confidants. connelly had called to george christian his press secretary and said to the president, not directly and i will explain what minimum, tonight is better tomorrow night. time is running out. he ended up by castigating the president and saying no more

agonizing re-appraisals. the response busby asked why he didn't call directly. george christian left hardly pick have jarred? everything is normal between them. they are not speaking these days. johnson made connelly or ned when he appointed sargent shriver as ambassador to france. this was outside the norm either. by the late afternoon, a balk at intel many of the people in the white of the lady bird characterized as a strange afternoon and evening where people met in the hallways and looked at each other helplessly, silent and exploding. he wanted to do something but what? and how do i do anything with the decision so momentous, one i could by no means government or take the responsibility for making it turn out right. and as she says, as a time to go and she could look at the hands of the clock and counting the hours until 9 p.m.

so as they get close, the president goes through again a whole group of people, clifford had been there with harry truman when he had made his decision to make this announcement march 27, 1952, 52, but he would not seek reelection. just going back over this, is actually march 9, 1952. so people kept debating an easy going to do it? is not wax some still think that he wouldn't. marvin watson one of the people closest to him told his secretary lbj had not made up his mind, this was at 7:45 p.m., regarding whether he would run or not. even lady bird wavered,, wondering about the state of the union speech. is probably the best line in the whole story. lbj admitted quote, when did i make a decision that announced on the evening of march 31, 1968? the speech start at night and i

made my decision and 9:01. so as tension fills the widest as people know that this is being debated, president does into the oval office around, 50 minutes before the speech is to start. he's wearing a dark black suit, burgundy tie, looking very calm and collected. i was happy to hear there's actually some of the materials in the vietnam exhibition related to this speech. just before 9:00, lady bird walked over to the large dark mahogany desk worker has been set. she noticed the light in his face were deep but there was a marvelous repose overall. over other she leaned over and said, remember, pacing and drama. then she returns to her seat and as she takes her seat he begins, tonight i want to speak to you a piece in vietnam and southeast asia. no other question so preoccupies our people.

for nearly 20 minutes johnson focused on jumpstarting the peace process. he stressed out tonight i've ordered our aircraft and our naval vessels to make no tax on vietnam. he's going to tell this national audience, he made on the exception of north of the dnc were any forces continued to mobilize near caisson. as he moved towards the end, he got really serious. with america's sons in the fields far away, with america's future under challenge writer at home, with our hopes and the world hopes for peace and the bounds everyday, i do not believe that i should devote another hour or a day of my time to any personal partisan causes or to any duties other than that of the awesome duties of the presidency of the united states here accordingly, i shall not seek and i will not accept the

nomination of my party or another term as your president. he wastes little time making the transition with a rhetorical flourish of what would've made jfk, but let men everywhere, however strong, but confident and vigilant america stand ready tonight to seek an honorable peace and stand ready tonight to defend an honored cause. whatever the price, whatever the burden, whatever the sacrifices and duty may require. good night, and god bless all. i know and i talked to so many people, you remember exactly probably where you were. and there was a collective gasp when he made this announcement. people looked at each other. i got a great picture, i don't think it's in the book but i use my presentations, students at kent state look at each other like did we just hear that?

is that what we just heard the president saying he would not seek reelection? the answer was yes. sitting at the desk as the lights dimmed lbj felt the weight of the world lifting often. all day he struggled with the decision. he did it and gladly so. now he could escape the dungeon of the presidency but hopefully not before securing a path of peace to vietnam and reducing the blemish on his record. .. >> lady bird expressed relief. again, she didn't know until the end whether he would actually announce it. she knew about it, but she'd seen him do it before. as he leaves, he heads upstairs.

and there, they're already above. richard daley calls him and says, oh, we're going to draft you. and that would play out later in the story in the summer of 1968. at one point, when he made the announcement, i could only think of you standing in front of the wilson portrait. she understood the reference. knowing it symbolized the toll that it always took on a president. while he'd been up for nearly 15 hours, the night was not over for lbj. he changed into a blue turtle neck and worked the room appearing light-hearted, happy and relieved. then he left at 11 p.m. to meet a group of 35 reporters gathered in the yellow room. he enjoyed the sight of the shocked journalists. you can just see them wanting and clamoring, and one of the questions they said, how revocable is your decision? just as irrevocable as the statement says, he snapped.

completely irrevocable. you just take the statement and read it. there were no shalls, no woulds, no buts. i just made it will. later another asked whether he felt like he'd sacrificed himself, and he responds, no, no. i'm not sacrificing anything. i am doing what i think is right, what is best, calculated to permit me to render the maximum possible service in the limited time i have left. after the president -- press conference ends, the president retired to his living quarters. about midnight he sees arthur kremm. he looked at his friend, and i think this is really important. he said i was never sure of any decision i ever made in my life, and i never made any more unselfish one. he zeroed in on the 525,000 men whose very lives depended on what i do, and i can't worry about the primaries. now we'll be working full time for those men out there. the only guys that won't be back

here by the time my term ends are the guys raft in their -- left in their last day or two. we know how that worked out. but he did truly, i do think deep down, he truly believed he could pull off a miracle. he had a new crusade, likely his last, the effort the find a way to extricate the united states from vietnam. and it became an all-consuming effort, one that dominated the last nine months of his presidency. it insured some gains, but ultimately, once undermined by his inability to let people, others -- including the vice president -- to shape the outcome as well as nixon's campaign efforts in undermining the last minute negotiations in paris. but it became the major part of his struggle to try to resurrect his legacy. and, again, we know the outcome. but we also know that fundamental change that occurred that day changed america.

it changed the outcome in vietnam. not necessarily for the best, but it did change the trajectory. and after this point, you rarely see anyone talking about the idea of winning victory. it's about negotiating even by the nixon people a just and fair withdrawal. this is important. march 31st transformed america, and lyndon johnson did this. and unfortunately for hum, other things -- for him, other things interceded. just a few days later, martin luther king's assassinated, and many of the gains that had been sought and won -- because he flipped his numbers overnight from about 40% support to 60. but four days later the country broke apart, and that changed the trajectory also as well as many other tragedies that happened that year, and i outline those in the book. at that point elle say i'll stop here, and i'll take some questions. thank you for your attention.

[applause] yes, sir. >> mr. longley, thank you so much for being here today. i'm a college student here in the washington, d.c. area. when i was in middle school in 2006, i did research at the lbj library, and that truly was a formative experience. >> i like to hear that as the director. [laughter] >> i had the opportunity to visit the library again in august 2017, 2017. and what my question is, is there are several -- there are numerous accounts of president johnson's final meeting with

robert kennedy on april 3, 1968. i was wondering do you know, do you know when and where president johnson's final meeting with dr. king was? >> that's a good question. i don't have an answer. see, i'm smart enough to know, but i know people that will have the answer, and so i don't. but that famous one, i'm glad you brought that up, that april 3rd meeting? says so much about this rivalry between the two. and maybe, if you don't mind, i will tell that story. and what you'll do is you see me afterwards, give me an e-mail, and i'll have my people find that answer out. on the king. but what happened was right after he announced he was not going to seek re-election, robert kennedy comes trying to determine whether the president would stay out of sort of the fray in the democratic primary. and see who the cabinet members could go. and he basically says, yes, they can make their own decisions. what's interesting about it is johnson, at the end of the meeting after the meeting goes to his people says, well, play

me back the tape. and they went to play the tape, and there was nothing on it. bobby kennedy brought a scrambler to the meeting. [laughter] so it's a great story. and i'm sorry i can't answer that other one, but i'm going to say it's probably back before king made that famous speech on vietnam in 1967. after that it's pretty much irrevocable, the damage. yes, ma'am. >> yes. thanks for your presentation. my name's lee young, and just -- [inaudible] in the '60s johnson is, stop the war -- [inaudible] peace and justice for peel. but then after -- for people. but then after martin luther king and robert kennedy they are assassinated, the whole society seems to get worse and worse.

so what's the legacy of johnson, is it for peace or for justice or for society going -- [inaudible] vicious cycle? >> that's a great question, and the answer is, it is extremely complex, and i could write a dissertation on it. and that's what, you know, my wife always warns me of a historian by training to try to keep my answers short and to the point. something this complex would not be. i would say, for example, in the civil rights area he is still seeking justice. now, the race riots in '65 in watts and then in '67 in newark and detroit lead to a lot of counter and backlash. i always say the one book that if i had to tell people to read to help understand the last 50 years of america and the issues of race is a book by dan carter called "the politics of rage" about george wallace and how he was able to tap into that

backlash. peace in vietnam, infinitely more complex. i really don't think he was truly committed -- now, he'd given the san antonio formula in 1967, but the north vietnamese weren't interested in it. so the peace movement really, i think, begins, one, after the tet offensive and then with the march 31st because they'd been debating the issues. i do talk about this in the book, about how the tet offensive changed the whole dynamic. it led johnson to say we've got to find a just and equitable peace. but still fundamental is south vietnam being able to survive on its own. again, i could go into much greater detail, but it's complexed, it's nuanced. johnson would change his mind after this decision sometimes daily on vietnam. it was whoever he was listening to at the time. walt rossdale, much more hawk everybody than clark clifford. so it was infinitely complex.

and so this struggle -- but here's what i always say about johnson, i think the pivotal year is 1966. '64, '65, great accomplishment. '66 when the congressional races happen and you see the democrats lose 47 seats, it changes the dynamic. and the ones that do come in are infinitely more conservative, and they align with the conservative southern democrats, and it basically stalled johnson's programs, which has been made as an argument in a number of books. again, infinitely more complex than i can give in a two minute, three minute answer, but i do think it is one worth discussing. thank you. yes, sir. >> yeah, thank you. i always have to say i'm not from the united states, i'm from the caribbean. a small island in the caribbean. which i bush i was there today. -- i wish i was there today. [laughter] >> i wish i was there too

myself. i want to ask a few questions because there's a sense that going into vietnam which was to an extent inherited from kennedy, right? >> and -- [inaudible] goes back to the 1950s. >> i i mean, no question about it. >> yeah. >> but a direct outcome of, obviously, the cold war and the growing competition. but did he at some point, i mean, he was surrounded by so-called the best and the brightest, right? to some extent he, obviously, inherited from kennedy. was there any serious debate at certain points to say, look, this war doesn't make any more sense, or were they caught up, you know, in certain inherit momentums that were taking place that they could not break out from anymore? that's the first question. >> let me answer the questions as they come. >> okay. >> so i don't forget.

as i get older, and this job -- i've only been on the job two months, and they still have me running very quickly, and the mind is always racing. let me take those two questions, or that first question. were there serious debates about not continuing along the path in vietnam. i would answer, absolutely not. there were some voices of dissent like george ball, but if you with realize the work "choosing war," which i think is a classic, you read h.r. mcmaster's work, "dereliction of duty," i think you get very strong indications that there wasn't a serious debate about -- and it was incrementalism that ultimately will cost the united states. and this is where you see long-term debates still going on. we could discuss vietnam all day. the idea of, you know, why didn't we go all in versus the incremental. or on the other extreme, why didn't we get out when we saw this was not going to go well, because there were a lot of questions typically raised time and time again about the ability of the south vietnamese

government to stand on its own. so that's how i would answer it. and you notice i'm not answering it directly because as a teacher always, what i was always taught is you give more information, go read these other books, because it's infinitely more complex than just giving a little, short answer. so these guys, i think, to a really good job, again, fred and h.r. mcmaster, and there's in others. i could -- one of my staff walked into my office the other day and saw row afro of all the -- row after row of books on vietnam. they said i didn't realize how many books there were on vietnam. you ought to see what i have at home. second question. >> second question, you go into it, i think it's called the chi noaa affair under nixon. we know he was tremendously troubled about this issue, and at certain points even played with the idea of confronting nixon or maybe even openly speaking about it, right?

how do you see him not really -- [inaudible] and there's obviously complex reasons why he doesn't do it, right? >> i'll give you three. >> but how do you see that -- do you see that as a beginning as a kind of a potential fundamental corruption of what we have seen with the presidency? iran-contra affair, what is going on now, you know, declaring different wars without worrying about the war power act. do you see that -- if he had stood up and confronted nixon, right, with all the problems that that would have led to, right? do you believe that would have been a better idea looking back at it from now, or do you believe, you know, the complexity of the situation, the political cost and stuff like that -- >> can i give you my answer on that? and i'll give you my answer real simply. there's two major reasons lyndon johnson did not confront -- well, he did confront nixon. he actually gave the information

to hubert humphrey who also chose not to use it. i have a good chapter in the book about this. also ken hughes' wonderful book on the whole chenault affair and nixon is very good too. but the two major reasons, one is, i think, it's very late in the process. he's not sure it would have made that much difference, especially as they gather more information. two the, he would have had to admit that he'd been spying on american citizens as well as bugging the south vietnamese embassy as well as nsa was spying on the presidential palace in saigon. that doesn't look good. finally, he didn't want to diminish the presidency because he thought nixon was going to win, and what you would initiate immediately was a constitutional crisis. now, here's the interesting thing. had johnson lived past 1973, say he lives to 1976, how deeply would he have regretted that decision. you know, he didn't see watergate break. he died before. i think if he'd lived longer,

this is the way i've explained it, i think he would have seriously regretted not bringing that information. i wrote an interesting op-ed on the comparisons between president obama and president johnson on decisions on what too let out there. and making -- i think this played to a degree and also not wanting to appear partisan. but, yeah, i think he would have regretted it, and that's the way i'm going to answer it. do i think it might have stymied things? no. we know through the church committee hearings, through the pentagon papers what was going on. this had been going on for a very long time, especially since fdr forward. it might have shone some light but, look, you had the church committee hearings, you had watergate. did that stop it? no, absolutely not. so this one little segment i'm not sure would have made that much difference either. here and then i'll come -- just do the tag team. >> my grandparents invited all

their adult children and grandchildren to look at the speech. all adults in the room thought for sure that johnson would announce his re-election. and i'm going to clean up the language, but my grandma said all the elderly people and the african-americans will vote for him, and he'll win. and everyone was absolutely shocked. >> uh-huh. >> and there was a feeling that, you know, there goes vietnam. >> right. >> there goes vietnam. there's no reason for us to be there, we thought we had a chance, but if he pulls out of the race -- my question though is how did members of congress react to the speech, and were they any more friendly to any parts of his legislative package? >> yeah. i think i've written a biography of albert gore sr., for example, and he said glowing words about the president's decision.

if anything fulbright did also. now, the problem is four days later king is assassinated, and all hell breaks loose. and so all the gains that had been garnered are lost almost immediately. now, if that had not happened, might have changed some of the dynamic, but we know that happened. and then we know what continues to transpire by june. the assassination of bobby kennedy, the democratic national convention and into the election. but your grandmother's point was well made x this is one i make -- and this is one i make time and time again. i think johnson had a very -- look, hubert humphrey came close. closed it. he had virtually no support in the south. lyndon johnson still held on to a lot of support in the south. now, wallace was dividing that up, nixon was having some struggles in the south, you know, he really doesn't develop the southern strategy until 1970. so i think there's a high probability -- of course, it's an ahistorical question, we

can't answer it. but i agree with your grandmother, there would have been high probability he would have held on. those people did not necessarily trust nixon. wallace was cutting into his gains. and then the south would have been much more likely to vote for lyndon johnson than hubert humphrey. so the problem is, you know, the old saying is pure hubert -- poor, poor hubert. he had a great statement, and he talks about this -- and i've got this in the book in the democratic national -- he goes, you know, my ties to johnson were so strong, and even -- it didn't matter what i did. i could have taken a portrait of the president and pissed on him in times square, and people would have said what took you so long. [laughter] i think that wraps it up pretty good. and i talk about this in the book. i do think the president did undermine humphrey especially in the august period and did damage his opportunities to become president. so i talk about that in great detail on that democratic national convention chapter.

yes, ma'am. >> well, first of all, i want to say i kind of disagree with his grandmother, and i was in high school. i was 17 in 1968, and i don't -- it seemed at the time and since then, i'm not sure that he would have even gotten the nomination, let alone won. the war, everything was -- >> he would have won the nomination, no doubt in my mind, because he controlled the party apparatus. >> [inaudible] >> and keep in mind it's not until '72 that we see a reform of that democratic party apparatus to move it out of the unit role which is going to cause a lot of problems. so, i mean, illinois' controlled by mayor daley, texas controlled by john connolly. i think he would have got the nomination. of course, there's all kinds of variables. kennedy's killed -- >> well, kennedy, that's, of course, yes. >> -- effective campaigner. it's an answer we can't say, but i can just make the point i do think there's a probability,

relatively high, that he would have done fairly well. if humphrey could get within 300,000 votes, i think lyndon johnson would have pushed it over. but that's just my -- we can't prove it. >> right. okay. >> that was a good question, and i never mind being contradicted. i'm married, so i'm used to that. [laughter] don't repeat -- well, i guess it is now on film. i'm in trouble. yes, ma'am. >> yeah. i was a student at kent state in 1968 finishing up my master's in physics. i'm not sure if i'm in your picture, but i could have been. >> oh, that was at -- i said kent state, i meant ohio -- >> oh, ohio. >> that was my mistake. >> that's a big difference. >> but you could have been there too. >> no, no, no, i was at kent. and i was also, unfortunately, on the faculty at kent state in 1970. >> right. >> but my question historically, i like to look back and ahead historically. what do you think is lbj's

long-term impact on our current political situation? obviously, he had a big impact on the democratic party particularly in the south, but what do you think is his long-term impact? >> here's what i'm going to get a plug for. come visit our library. [laughter] and when you go through the library, i think the thing that stands out, a lot of the people that are either not old enough or haven't paid that much attention always think of lbj, and they think vietnam. but when you walk through our library and you see the 400 pieces of legislation that were signed by lyndon johnson -- and, of course, we've got the pens -- how many have been there? okay. there's still a lot of you that can go, okay? and we like having you there. but you will see the environment, medicare, civil rights. yeah, i mean, you just go through a whole litany of -- and here's what i'm making the

argument in the book, and i have to be careful here because i don't want to dive too much into contemporary debate. but i would argue very strongly the debates we're having today in congress, throughout the country relate much more to the great society than any other part of our political continuum. again, environment. civil rights. you know, education, what's the role of the federal government. lyndon johnson, neh, nea. you just go across the spectrum, lyndon johnson had a significant impact. probably not exceeded by fdr, but in the contemporary since 1933 it's there. and i would argue -- even ronald reagan made this point. he said i'm not against fdr, but i hate the great society. i didn't like lyndon johnson, but he accepts some elements of fdr given that he was a new dealer. but you listen to the debates today, we're still debating lyndon johnson's legacy whether

we recognize head start, again, across the spectrum. and that's the point i make in the book. i talk about the pueblo. we've been dealing with the north koreans for a while, you know? we're dealing with supreme court nominations. the argument against homer thornbeforely was a lame tuck -- thornberry was a lame duck president should not be able to make that decision. so everything has a continuity there. and again, i think that's what makes it so important to understand this period, understand the johnson presidency, and i'm going to make this argument very strongly both as director, but the 1960s are going to be a period of fascination for the united states probably throughout our history. right up there with the civil war, world world war ii. this period. i know the good thing for me on that is research is going to continue to come to the johnson library to try to understand these issues even more so. so i'm happy about that. so if you haven't been, please come. we would love to host you. and austin's a pretty good town especially for barbecue.

so we -- [laughter] we do some things very, very well. >> yep, thank you. i spent 27 years living in texas before i relocated to maryland. >> okay. what part? >> fort worth. >> okay, that's a good part. >> yeah, that's a good part. >> if you'd said dallas, i might have -- but fort worth is a good place. >> fort worth is good. >> thank you, ma'am. yes, sir. >> i was only 8 in 1968 -- >> okay. you and i are sort of in the same boat. >> it was a school night, so i was in bed -- >> that's right. >> but i remember the newspapers the next day, helping my friend deliver them and the big, bold headlines. >> right. >> i guess one comment would be if johnson had not pass z it up, how worse the '68 convention would have been with him trying to get the nomination. of course, god knows, i don't know if it could have been worse. >> well, that's the problem. but johnson contributed to that. and people have heard me say, and i talk about it in the book, hubert humphrey wanted to have the convention in miami. far away from the radicals of

mad and berkeley. madison and berkeley. make it harder on them to get there. he also knew there was a higher probability with mayor daley's tactics that there would be confrontation. johnson also appointed the chairman of the convention rather than letting humphrey do it with edmund musky. ed win musky. he couldn't let go, and it had some very -- and, you know, the saddest part in the whole book, it's his birthday many august of 1967 -- or '68. he's at the ranch, and he's thinking they're going to call him to come up to the convention. maybe even be drafted, which his aides will say he would not have taken anyway, but he would like to have been asked. but then he starts getting the information back about how contentious it is, how it would stir it up. now, again, that's working on the premise too though of bobby

kennedy's assassination. all the different bad things that happened partly because he announced his decision not to seek re-election. so i don't disagree, but you're right, chicago, it's going to be hard to get much worse than it was. >> my question is you said at the outset that him and buzbee were talking that vietnam, they had to get beyond what was considered a blemish on his -- because they considered it at that point a blemish on his record. >> uh-huh. >> i realize in his retirement he was pretty much a recluse, but i would -- was there any realization on his part when it took nixon so long to end the war that vietnam was going to be considered much more than a blemish on his record given how long it was taking to finish up? >> yeah, that's a good question. of course he would look at it and say, well, if i'd been in control, it wouldn't have lasted this long, and it wouldn't -- 23,000 more americans wouldn't

have died. >> right. >> you know? and he would look and say, well, if they wouldn't have interfered in the peace process in the latter stages of my presidency -- and they had been for a year and a half, basically -- maybe we would have gotten something accomplished. again, it's an ahistorical question because as historians we sometimes hesitate to answer, because we just can't answer it. there's so many variables. this is what i teach a lot, i taught in our honors college in arizona state which is the best honors college in the country, the baird honors college. i had incredible students, and i had a lot of engineers taking the class on the vietnam war. and the thing that always frustrated them was i couldn't put it in black and white terms. there was a lot of gray, a lot of nuance, and they couldn't, basically, put it in the way of the way they thought about the world. now, not all of them were that way, but a lot of them just struggled. you couldn't answer these kinds of questions which just drove them mad, you know?

there's natural laws. well, there are none in foreign policy and politics. those natural finish i'm sorry, to my political science friends, but it's hard to find those natural laws. so, again, can't answer the questions, but i do think -- i go back to, he would have said i would have done it better, which he always thought. and i'll give you one final sort of vignette, this sort of speaks -- he did not like richard nixon despite what some try to portray him as they had some kind of relationship, he was happy they won. no, that was not the case. the library was opened in 1971. or '72 -- see, i'm still learning. i've only been there two months, so i've got to learn all of my history. but richard nixon came down for the opening. and in the library, we have this beautiful 10-story building, and they had a private suite built for the president. and he had a special shower, because he was a big man. built for imwith a lot of -- him with a lot of water pressure. nixon comes up to him, and it's august in texas.

you know it's miserable, not a place you want to be. nixon comes up and goes, i need a shower. i've soaked through my shirt, it's almost like he had the 1960 debate over again with the shadow and, you know, not doing well. so johnson says, yeah, go take one in my shower. he forgets to tell him what the water pressure is like. [laughter] he stands outside, and when nixon gets knocked on his butt, johnson's laughing. [laughter] so you can't see that the, because that's a special off the site place, but we still have that suite. it's still just like it was in 1971. and it's a remarkable place. i hope david's had a chance to see it. so that makes a point. johnson did not like nixon, he did not trust nixon. he had a longstanding animosity going back to 1950 and the senate race that nixon ran existence douglass where he just trashed him. he didn't forget easily. i hope that sort of answers the

question. again, i can't answer some of these questions, i can just speculate. any others? okay, i think we're done. i want to say thank you for coming out on this rainy day. hope you enjoyed it. [applause] .. >> who is married to beth, chief of staff for lady bird. [applause] [inaudible conversations] >> you can watch thian