. >> can you hear me okay? i am so glad you joined us this evening to our valued members that support the direct role to make tonight

possible with similar events each year our thanks and warm oak on. and those joining us for the first time creating an open invitation to those wide range of programs we have some exciting history programs coming up including russia us relations on wednesday and an evening lecture on october 23rd and china and history of empires on november 6 more information is available on our website and program guide that is in the lobby on your way out. please make sure your devices are on silent. we are thrilled to welcome our speaker sir max hastings his work has appeared in every british national newspaper and now reviews regularly for the new york review of books and publishing 26 books including the secret war, catastrophe

and armageddon the battle of germany. spending much of his early years as a correspondent reporting 11 conflicts including vietnam editor in chief of the daily telegraph and at the evening standard he has received many awards for his books in journalism and journalist of the year and reporter of the year in the british press of words and editor of the year in 1988. in 2012 the pritzker military library presented him with a 100,000-dollar literary award for lifetime achievement. his most recent book, vietnam available for purchase and

signing in the lobby following the presentation please join me to welcome sir max hastings. [applause] . >> think you so much for that and also for coming tonight we feel like an intruder as an english man writing about a national tragedy but then also an american tragedy. this war and this country meant a huge amount in my life to meet vietnamese. but on the 28th of may, 1968 a 20 -year-old machine gunner in vietnam today there isn't much to say i would say

everything is fine but it is not so those in massachusetts received a telegram from the marine corps parliament that your son died on the second of june with those are airstrikes the remains will be prepared and shipped accompanied by an escort or national cemetery selected bayou and you will be reimbursed in the amount not to exceed $500 for funeral and interment expenses. 16899 received in homes in 1968 by the end of the war of

those compatriots have died 13 north koreans 771 chinese so this bloodbath far exceeded the human cost from afghanistan and syria and iraq. moreover vietnam had cultural impacts to me it rows the dismay of hundreds of millions to destroy a us president and in the wave of protest that swept the west in the sixties

rejection of morality to be conflated against capitalism and imperialism of which vietnam with that ugly manifestation. moreover those americans that lacks sympathy for any of those causes because they see themselves systematically besieged by their own government and enterprise doomed to fail. in all of saigon upon the most powerful nation to prevail the stairway on the evening of the h is sending to a rooftop helicopter to secure the place of symbolic images. for all war correspondent

struggling with those experiences of our careers. of that tumultuous day. even before i first saw vietnam age 22 i was among the group of foreign journalists visiting the white house. we were addressed by president johnson on his commitment to the war. his personality was no less formidable. some of you like blondes or redheads or maybe you don't like them at all. stipulating constantly to emphasize his point but i am here to tell you what kind i like.

and then we can sit down to settle this. after making his pitch he left the room abruptly without taking questions we were preparing to leave when the president said almost coyly do any of you feel any different from anything you have read or heard about me? we were stunned into silence of the awesome vulnerability. in those days vietnam represented of natural beauty and man-made for. that was the disaster of indochina of which the american tragedy was overlaid. to have scores of vietnamese men and women and

anti-communist those thousands of pages that were verified and translated let me recount to you that was repeated 10000 times in 1964 the lieutenant from the south vietnamese as they tried to ravage the village he saw a young woman sitting silent holding a wicker basket. her eyes looked straight ahead in a blank stare. asking why she lingered in the midst of a battlefield she remained silent her eyes giving a flash of terror so then she thrust the basket it

contained two sets of close to gold necklaces and a pair of earrings. the soldier motioned to the girl away but then pulled her back holding up the basket her hands trembled so horribly she was unable to take it and then began to unbuttoned her blouse the young man was deeply embarrassed. she read his rejection of her most valuables as a sign he wanted her body what kind of life had she experienced? for someone who could be her younger brother and to carry fugitives people were calling out live. live. a woman who recognize the

acquaintance is stopped as if she was trying to summon a memory from a past life she would claim mother the house is burned down. so describe her walking away to the water like a person in a trance. this is what wars elect especially those that are not pilots or green berets from afghanistan and syria in 1945 such tiny tragedies from indochina foreign eyewitnesses concluded for the south vietnamese clients so in a key

theme that seems to be shared with the commoners that would put misery upon their own people. that becomes notorious of the south vietnamese police chief during the tet offensive after 1972 of the homes of peasants set a fire by american soldiers. and silence pursued by all regimes like ho chi minh. those pictures of the vietnamese buried alive of the mere crime and was told

contemptuously that those bullets those thousands of innocents buried in mass graves during the 1968 tet offensive. they were so warmly welcomed and invited to speak in those first years. the american advisor described a typical episode in which the headquarters of the delta receives during the night of her parents home her head hit with the rifle but because she refused to assist the attack in us compound the officer

wrote very pretty and very much a lady with a matching umbrella with the alabaster skin. and you could guess to admire the beauty or maybe not. likewise to describe to me hanging from ropes during the night. and to be less artistically noted so my own point of the saigon regime which is supported with all historical events with the monopoly of virtue or conduct we should

pause before anointing the communist as the good guys and those western protesters in the 19 sixties to say while the ho chi minh people deserve over the french colonialist neither side is their victory. let me recount the chronology the french colonized vietnam in the 1880s with the japanese in world war ii and in 1945 embarked upon the deranged attempt in the face of a nationalist movement led by ho chi minh. so the stewardship of neighboring china heathrow support behind them so the french suffer losses and defeats in november 1953 they

launched the operation to lure the enemy into battle there over the next five months they suffered catastrophe to mobilize 60000 and to handle those artillery pieces 500 miles across some of the worst country to be ravaged this saga ended with survivors of the 12000 men to the raggedy ass communist army. so assuming the conference on indochina but the chinese and russians proposed instead of the victory that they should

be surrendered to him the explanation was following western intervention they were desperate to avert a replay and the north vietnamese that they will fall into their hands when americans lost interest. unknown to the south vietnamese that would ingratiate themselves to be more important with those religion including communist was installed as a ruler of saigon and to assume power in hanoi the communist regime was

brutality and sometimes starvation was the common law of the north vietnamese and those revolts were invisible to the world and there was a desperate search of grilled rat with lemon leaves and locust and grasshoppers but their pet was safe 111 -year-old boy's family he had to cherish pucci would have to leave behind but strangers took it away in the morning. but the relatively rich south where everybody had enough to eat but they persecuted the enemies to rule with abysmal

incompetence the part of that rifle tyranny to secure the monopoly with nationalism as a victor over the french with the wonders of his regime by the ironclad censorship. and then with the vietcong taking place it reflected the hostility with the spontaneous activism while being driven by hanoi or beijing to dilute itself. in 1962 where they begin to

provide backing but then they decided the south was doomed to collapse which i also believe is unacceptable to the american people. and then had dispatching major combat units with the troops raging a struggle against the communist formations supported by 61000 allied troops from south koreans together with 600,000 armed south vietnamese. with 120,000 pounds of munitions but that culture shock was huge for the first

time they had nothing to do with death and devastation but instead tiny children smoking was horrible but to say cigarettes are bad for your health many men were nervous as snakes but they would load the beaches. the johnson administration with an ad campaign against north vietnam the bombing united the ho chi minh people but those that bring together the british people with an industry to make a small impact but it was completely contrary to the western perceptions with those lavish

resources to have little control and to dispatch to shoot down almost 1000 aircraft. and now to be symbolized which killed tens of thousands of vietnamese contrasted with the courage of soldiers and the women in hanoi inquired with "the new york times" correspondent how long do you americans want to fight? one-year or two-year or three or five years? ten years? twenty years? we should be glad to accommodate you.

as for the men doing the fighting vietnam was depression and despair much of that anxiety came from being taken away with friends and family and to be completely out of control. and the one that just lasted 30 seconds those marines that were killed or wounded and then to be pulled out the full artillery. and the way it knocks the air out of you as it arrives 20 years later with the things that you think about and say and do like a tiny white

pebble or a blade of grass and you think that is the last thing i will ever see. that blade of grass that makes you want to cry the booby-traps what the 21st century calls ied's they hated them all. the 16-millimeter mortar around to tear off of fingers or leg or an elbow to take both legs and almost certainly killed. and then to be in those debates with that preference and in one three-month period

losing 57 legs and one company to mines and booby-traps that almost amounted one leg per day. those with the emphasis should he was a veteran nurse from 1966 and took passion and pride in her work i didn't have a political commitment but the american troops needed help she was thinking of a young infantrymen this young man was literally ripped in half just below his ribs like hamburger meat all the internal organs were chopped up. his arms and hands and upper chest he was very alert looking at us from the entire

unit lying in the emergency room because there is absolutely nothing we could do that terror and frustration of the doctor's eyes because all the training and knowledge we still could not give him a chance he looked at me and said how does it look? i had to tell them it doesn't look good really that's all i had to offer him that he would not be alone to be a teetotaler all her life but then she started on screwdrivers. later she cannot bring herself to watch mash on television because her memories imposed a veto on laughter. but with that us involvement to have a different outcome many americans who went to vietnam were inspired by high

ideals of service one row told the 1966 i am convinced of the rightness to be here i have great respect for the vietnamese they did surprisingly well more difficult than ours is ever imagined i hope that our countrymen have maturity and stamina to stay in the fight as long as is necessary but a colleague recalls the words to develop most of the last decade of his life to the war to say we assisted the vietnamese pie in the sky the heavier than air machine to come down as gently as possible i was wondering what the difference would be.

the two men with the outpost during the night they crammed into the cockpit badly wounded and then to go to the hospital. but when they landed from the plexiglas to say again and again just another 20 minutes. just another 20 minutes he would make it. that was a valiant thought and he cares terribly about him but the anecdote of american commitment was not upon the interest of the vietnamese people. but of us domestic and foreign policy. those in the jungle.

that our compatriots is 10 percent and that demanded we do not like the chinese for those just get on - - decisions of escalation into prosperity with that rickety racket he character of the regime to provide that indigenous must mann - - façade unsurprisingly and america's leaders of cultures

social political. and with that free - - flamethrower with that huge policy failure it seems to me as unimpressive as some of them were. and that wise civilian who said there wasn't a way to fight the war. the world war ii paratroop hero. for five or six times great many civilians would have died as the war continues to drag on that objective for which we fight even in those consequences washingtons decision-makers with its own

peasant society. and bulldozers and that constantino wire. and helicopters to swell overhead. this is not a curse unique to vietnam. and from those interventions of those places even though well-intentioned. with that propaganda advantage but most of the people most of the time. and contrasted with a foreign power. but to this day the commanders fail to understand sending

their soldiers to wage wars among the people with the body armor but give them the appearance of robots impossible to love or to recognize. and then personal freedom. and then with ho chi minh. and to preside over the inhumane totalitarian regime. and then of the saigon generals and then to have much interest many were seduced and then as a southerner said to

me to remind us how humiliating it was the other side had the monopoly of patriotism. hanoi depended upon the chinese weapons but few were an armor only singing of the countrymen with the lack of possessions alongside that ostentatious spoils amassed by a saigon. but whether fatigues or tuxedos to get up in the morning without asking those on which side of the bed to get up. the 1964 us takeover of the south's which took place legitimize vietnamese communism.

it was attributable much less to those military powers with those vietnamese and then to lie about many things but if it denounced saigon's rulers. a key lesson from vietnam is it is very hard to exploit those battlefield successes that define the american officer that those successes with that regiment in 2004 so the problem was there was nothing to join with the saigon correspondent to say in south vietnam there was nothing to join up to the absence of credible local government with firefights was and always will be meaningless

it could not have been one on the battlefield as they try to inflict damage to the armed forces but that was the standard of civilized values that young westerners fighting abroad some do and others do not circumstances of combat to live that existence many come to see the lives of bystanders especially with casualties and in vietnam they were often baffled by rules of engagement of those civilian casualties that is what it came to be if

we cannot shoot them what are we doing here? it's hard to find tune that conduct with that possession of lethal weapons that our hungry and suffering constipation old diarrhea. ignorant holding their nerves and rifles because they hope to survive. so to say those suppressed resistance by force invite - - vietnam the army tried to be contemptuous to arm the hostility of the population but inadequate to support the communist they incurred enough but too few to deter those

people those successes were sufficiently common of those inferior beings it was a terrible symbolic mistake to miss the vietnamese to shoot at the boots in the later stages 1969 through 73 the conventional classes on - - crashes it was possible the u.s. army might have defeated the communist had not the commitment of many soldiers even if higher power prevails the saigon regime still commanded popular support and

there is still nothing to join up to and to discuss these countries that concluded while they were monstrously corrupt. it in the midst of a discussion but one south vietnamese proposed to introduce the french army system. arguably the people of vietnam have to experience after the north vietnamese before they could reject it. much less than iraq it was not even lost american lives but

then vietnam came along. and that vietnam memorial with the us army and marine corps and took to recover in the seventies. then to create of the outcome of world war ii and it seemed only logical those that were so only injured the vietnam

war did more to change this country than anything in recent history creating suspicion or mistrust even though the antiwar movement shows that 91 - - 92 today --dash naïve and those two incorrectly the - - point at vietnam as a catastrophe. and how they justify the devastating revelation he responded i wonder if it occurred to ask any of the other officials how they justify not doing what i did or how they had a right for the crimes committed and the deception of the american people? they made a critical point that the great lesson they carried home from vietnam but i myself argue america's

political leaders so the major settled with that disillusionment they thought they were going home with their uniforms and they were happy to see them but that was not true. another veteran is among many who still looks back the experience was huge i had a lot of trouble coming home i could not confess i had been a part of killing. but like those millions of former comrades to say i was a medic and that i was there for them but these people were killed or wounded i won't go

when there are others around i have about ten names the moments come back to see a tree line. but i saw the choppers over the tree lines i get so angry with them they know what is happening but with this sense of time to extend forgiveness to those who made disastrous decisions so late one afternoon with robert mcnamara

who played the role of president kennedy and johnson bringing america into vietnam was discussing ammunition requisitions. 2000 rounds for enemy infiltrator that the young official the body was shaking he was staring with tears streaming down his treat - - of his cheeks of his predecessor whose career was also destroyed by calling the office of the defense secretary. and with to speculate on those come on - - consequences the local vietcong could be contained in many other countries or authoritarian military rule the vietnamese

ingenuity and success justifies all nobody with pyongyang. because it is a democracy with a dynamic economy with a credible statement. granted the same opportunities to preserve the status but we shall never know. meanwhile only the liberation struggle confirmed the prestige and legitimacy to cling to the trappings hoping they continue to define

vietnam and victories with the communist party most conspicuous or only success but in 1993 returning to vietnam and taken to the area he found himself hated by former vietcong but needed to embrace americans to pass the trade deal with all they wanted was a mcdonald's we could have worked that out a long time ago. the western torah *-asterisk disarmed by that warmth that they have received partly because of the overwhelming majority from liberal

democracy and the shortcomings president obama received a reception when he was they were in 2015 but trump was a fresco - - a frosty 11 year later. in china so the natural beauty of the countryside the harsh rule of poverty the rulers of 2t century vietnam some make money but not to express political opinions or a debate the past. and with that american so-called credibility gap but in hanoi to remain institutionalized the conspicuous lesson of the last century those military ones to

determine outcomes. that the name ho chi minh city is for it would vanish the shots and temples of consumerism and designer clothes could be argued well the united states lost the war almost half a century ago it sends has seen economic and cultural to be robust but america's armed forces and a 13 -year-old boy.

and those loudspeakers that saigon was liberated. and from what we were taught at school from south vietnam i thought we must quickly set about with the misguided children and in 2012 that same boy observed those that review the pastor stunned when they realize south vietnam he argues because the value increasingly dominates the country but as for americans what was it all about? we did not learn a lot if we

had we would not have invaded iraq. thank you very much. [applause] . .

this is the trouble that once you get into these things they go against certain advisers vice versa and if we gave up they would be dependent on our support. so once they felt the prestige was committed, they felt obliged to go with it. again going back to these political imperatives they are impressed with the evidence of jk galbraith described how kennedy said just two weeks before, he said there are so many concessions to expect the

americans to relate to me and they really did believe. >> was prevented the larger communist movement from cambodia? >> they were not supposed to be there either. that's one of the absurdities. on the subject of the vietnam and china in many ways the more you become convinced. they d did some terrible thingsn indochina and absolute defiance

of the. that was a disaster and it was concealed from the deliberately austin defensible. as an advisor with the army in the mekong delta and i was there for one year and worked very much with the local people, the village people and military folks who were part of what i was doing with them but by the

time they made great strides in the pacification and i can show you and tell you though is that i visited felt that we were effective at least in getting the communist control eliminated to some degree or a great degree and progress was being made we could now write in the road's believe it or not for the achieved balance.com we politically ran out of time the government, the congress and the administrations anadministratior demonstrations impacted greatly on all of that. we could have kept going but there was no will to do that.

it's almost impossible to judge the way that the war will go in the criteria it's the same with the tet offensive. if word and this is a huge problem in all of these situations so much depends on how people seeking like how the media lost the war for the united states or south vietnam. i think they have a problem that although of course you are absolutely right.

they were in and out of trouble, but still this problem they were deeply unpopular that they made head way with one of my heroes in what we were discussing i don't think that it was the greatest achievement for the vietnamese and how do we when we go to other countries whether it is iran or afghanistan, how do we convince people you're

absolutely right. we've still got this huge problem with that they feel belongs to them. come to the microphone, and then everybody can hear you. >> i went to vietnam in april, 71 and came back in april, 75. i thought it was the just cause and we were going to win the war. within six months i knew we were

going to win the war and i have several of these come to jesus moment. i suspected that they had gone back to the viacom so i interrogated them and he admitted that they had gone back and we arrested them right on the spot. they were literally taking them down the stairs and they kept coming back and he said i want to tell you, he said we love you, americans. it's this corrupt government we hate. we absolutely hate it and i will fight to the death to change that. i never saw -- on one occasion i worked with the interrogation do you know when this was?

i interrogated a love of the viet cong and i can remember going to the center on one occasion they were interrogating a vietcong female. she put it between her teeth like this, but the tip of her time off antongue off and spit e face of the interrogator. i never saw that kind of zeal on the part of the south vietname vietnamese. they never believed it was their war. diif you have any contact with e general? in february of 75 there is a lot of evidence we could get but not

enough they had been fighting for 20 or 30 years. national liberation and the fight against the united states were nationalists. when you go to the vietnam now. when you build a cuisine you go downtown and there's starbucks.

we had no stake and the idea that we are fighting a political position was totally folds. the americans knew that and you seem to keep talking about the communist parcommunist party the national liberation part of it. what i do see the evidence is overwhelming but i do think a lot of historians have gone to light. ho chi minh ran in the north and

harnessed the ideology. in the late 50s and early 60s the one thing that is extraordinary and prevails to this day. they had no understanding at a

all. our understanding of tribal and family issues an awful lot is done in a huge regions and it is awesome to realize. i learned a lot writing this book the one key thing is when he was running russia he said to the russian ambassador at the time i do not wish to drown in the swamps of vietnam with half a million dollars each year switch to the russians was very serious but they were utterly visible about this and felt they probably couldn't get out of it. even later in the day they still

believed the war would be over and what is amazing is with all of this huge intelligence operators that they don't understand this sort of stuff. anti-protest against vietnam in doing that. >> i think it was a mixture of things. the focus of this was given extra stimulus by the fact a lot of kids were absent and the

notion of being drafted. the mood was so divided. they were right that the war was a catastrophe. whawould you say that it's more like china because they have free economics and very harsh when it comes to political stu

stuff. it's a specialty in the internet censorship when they died the vietnamese were saying to me. most of them are not prepared and is scary you're absolutely right for the economic success matched by the repression. some were worthwhile in the

stories. the he said that they are wasting more time and most there are some vietnamese memoirs that are translated which is a godsend for people like me. but it is not a happy place. most is to get the united states [inaudible]

they are afraid that the chinese, what they are doing is getting leases in vietnam 100 year leases on their land. i spend a year in 1972, 1973 doing some things to bring american equipment to the army. but i remember from that time the real impression this was from the standoff between the commander that we liked or didn't like. in 1975 it was over in vietnam and the people that i knew, i'm sure that not a single one of them survived more than a month in the killing fields. it's a mystery to me what it was

that motivated them to do the terrible things they did and if there is any way that we can link them to this i would like your thoughts on that. >> my book is already too long. my wife is always saying i shouldn't write books in bed. again i don't think that americans have been. yes a lot of bad things were done there but the fact is it was the great creation but this was not -- it is the historiography because there was such a huge amount of material

and evidence of a bubble in the united states. there was little material available on the other side. this is the degree to which they are no longer described as communist party were a totalitarian regime. all people like me have ever tried to do these days is to see things from both sides. anybody else? my question is directed towards the generation of the men and women in the war. the last ambassador in saigon

wasn't going to be the man who gave up saigon so i'm curious about another generational thing which is you can take a military history of learning from mccarthy or bradley and assisting with the leadership of. do you get this stubbornness is built into the generations leaving the military on both sides and it is an issue that you mentioned is johnson learning from roosevelt's strength that they are so locked into their egos or they are so programmed or focused that they can't show any weakness at all and it drives them into this map madness. >> one has to remember that in

the 1960s in the wake of the extraordinary economic achievement most americans felt nothing was impossible in the united states. you couldn't defeat this raggedy guerrilla army. it would have been an almost impossible message. you may say rather harshly in my book kissinger would come out pretty appalling for the tapes that have been released about the cynicism. he never believed the war was winnable. he was desperate to conceal. they were going to stop on an

absolute defeat. we already have a problem that there was the message they didn't want to receive. they had lost. it's a tough message to bring home. >> with everything that has been written about vietnam, what motivated you to go through those thousands of pages? >> this may sound rather weird to you but i thought before i started the book, i traveled and i thought can i release a speeding around the united states with a lot of people and

i and the same age as these people, so we can speak the same language. you become completely grasped. it's a social historsocial histe conversations in power to me i live in a middle-class bubble in britain and the people you are meeting around the united states with three or four hour conversations it has nothing to do with the war. i remember making an infantryman who said in the little town i came from in the late 1950s and 60s all the men got drunk and beat up their wives. he said if that's what they did in the course you talk to a

commissioned officer no motel or restaurants would ever have been you get gripped by the stories people tell you. i once asked was there any happiness in your childhood and they looked at me with absolute contempt all we were doing is struggling for survival to access. at times there was prosperity but you sethat use the windows o aspects of other people's lives

that i still find absolutely riveting. i was told he was still alive which i was amazed to hear. i found it pretty rough but what i thought his health was completely destroyed by the experience that he was riveting and told me he'd seen the vietcong and he spoke vietnamese fluently and he spoke with such

an evenhanded he understood these people and before i left that was a huge looseleaf writing it's too coherent and huge but he got so carried away by these people. one thing that shocks me is the medical care out of there in nevada. he said i have this in common with a lot of my contemporaries. he was a very remarkable american and died a few months

ago. i wish that he had lived to see the book published but all i am turning back to idle give you a long answer to your question, but i still find it so gripping and fascinating i love telling stories and i hope i've done justice. thank you all very much indeed. [applause]

we should probably keep in mind the original definition of the word free in english is not in bondage. the most meaningful thing is to mankind as a sickening history of slavery. here in america we have freedom because we have rights. the same way we can get mixed up about freedom we can get mixed up about our rights. political scientists call them positive rights and negative rights and sometimes we call them opportunities and privileges. you know the bill of rights doesn't mention the jimmy

writes. it's all about the freedom to say i have a big mouth and if they find me guilty the judge will go by dale.

>> next on "after words" the pulitzer prize-winning journalist josé antonio vargas reflects on living in the united states as an undocumented immigrant interviewed by the senior strategist for race forward and that the author of the accidental american. "after words" is a weekly interview program with relevant guest host interviewing top nonfiction authors about their latest for us.