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>> coming up shortly on c-span2 will bring you a live conversation on trade between the u.s. and china. over this past week and president trump and chinese president xi announced an agreement to hold off on tariffs for the time being. that discussion expect me to start any moment now entrée between the trend and china. we will have live for here on c-span2. while we wait for discussion president trump and his relationship with russia. we want to welcome back to our table jonathan turley, law professor george washington university here to talk about the trump trump administratione rush investigation. what is your reading of the michael cohen guilty plea yesterday? >> there are probably more questions than answers. it obviously represents an ominous stage for the white house but how serious it is is really an open question. colin is not exactly ideal witness for anything.

he seems to achieve this almost perfect record of being accused of lying to everyone on everything at every time up until this point that moment i think i think is truth now. what he is saying that is most damaging potential think to the present is that he lied to congress about when the negotiations and discussions are going on with regard to this project and moscow. he did so in part to try to limit the russian investigation. if the president knew he was going to live or encouraged him to lie, that could represent a serious crime. the encouragement to be something called subornation of perjury. those represents. series torpedoes in the water that could hit the widest event of what he says next in terms of his narrative. in terms of trump allegedly continuing negotiation for this

project in moscow during the campaign that's not a crime. but what his critics are saying is that it supplies for them also brings why the president was so solicitous towards the russians. maybe it was a quid pro quo. so there's a lot of stuff floating about in the air but we still don't have anything concrete that would connect president trump with a quick run. >> the "washington post" reports what which are saying pick some legal experts argue mulder appears be drawing a picture of a candidate who was beholden to the kremlin. e-mails released in the plea deal show trump seeking a financial endorsement for the russian government on a private project on russia present ladoga putin's offering to say flattering things about trump. >> right. this is not the first of those types of allegations. clinton's were criticized

because huge amounts contends that millions of dollars, were given to the clinton foundation when hillary with secretary of state and the "washington post" reported a lot of that money was an effort to buy influence and asked accessed once she left office. of money being to the foundation dropped at a huge rate. when you make those types of arguments you have, there has to be a there there. you have to find some clear indication of a quid pro quo. you could find that with clint turkey might not find that with trump. that's the of washington unfortunately. >> what is it do you think robert mueller is doing that, with michael cowans deal and is guiltily? >> what i find most interesting, also robert course to comfort so controversy, a guy mulder wanted to the guilty and he turned over what is essentially the draft plea agreement that mother wanted him to sign. what's interesting about both colin and corsi is mueller is

clearly hunting for trump. before there was a lot of speculation is mueller really trying back trump? i think it's good for the last two weeks the answer is yes. these are moves by mueller to try to get a clean shot at trump. they didn't succeed so the question is does he have had something more than these two individuals. >> let's listen to trump yesterday. >> michael cohen has made many statements to the house as i understand and the senate. he put out a statement talking about a project which was essentially essential i guess more or less of an option that we were looking at in moscow, everybody knew about it, , was it about in newspapers, and was a well-known project, it was during the early part of 16 at a guess it and before that pickett lasted a short period of time. i didn't do the project. i decided not to do the project. so i didn't do it that we're not

talking about doing a a project that would talk about not doing a project. michael cohen what he is doing is he was convicted i guess, you have to put into legal terms, but he was convicted with a fairly long-term sentence on thinks totally unrelated to the trump organization come having to do with mortgages and having to do with cheating the irs, perhaps, a lot of different things. i don't know exactly, but he was convicted of various things unrelated to us. he was give a fairly long jail sentence and he's is a weak person. and by being weak, unlike of the people you watch, he as a weak person and what he's trying to do is get a reduced sentence. so he is lying about a project that everybody knew about. i mean, we were very open with it. >> jonathan turley. >> this is one of the curious aspects about president trump's defense of himself. roosevelt a should be talking like this about cases that he might be involved with cow

special counsel investigation but that is something he could is not listening to his own counsel and too many people in congress. the thing that stands out is because this guy a bomb and how unbelievably is. he was her personal attorney. he was the guy that you kept on sending people to. so it really has this striking conflict. when special counsel investigation began, i said publicly one of the first thing the present needs to sever michael cohen because his reputation was well known to most of us. he was a really bad lawyer who had an awful reputation. that was my first priority when asking what legal advice would you give the president. ultimately lots of people said that but he didn't listen to that. and, indeed, he sort of double down. when michael cohen was most radioactive come he brought him to his, to this resort to the very public danner and sorted embraced in.

a lot of what the president said to michael cohen doesn't make a lot of sense to us, even just retaining some like michael cohen. >> what do you make of paul manafort's cooperation and that deal falling apart with robert mueller? >> manafort's is not the first one. clearly manafort did not give more what mulder wanted, at least all of what mulder wanted to the question is whether gave mueller enough. we don't know. he spent hours and hours in these interviews with the mueller. presumably he gave him something. but this isn't the first time that mueller is that a witness blowup on it. you had papadopoulos who was the first real big plea and ultimately became almost hostile witness with the mueller. mueller actually pushed to try to convince the court to give him a longer sentence, notably the court refused. the court gave papadopoulos and exceptionally light sentence. some things of that necessarily gone that will for mueller.

it's not clear what he's got to so many of the witnesses seem to have pushed back on mueller. with manafort there is this intriguing question of whether mueller played metaphor to whether manafort laid mueller. manafort -- played mueller. manafort looks like it went along to basically switched sides begin in the middle of this investigation. consider this, this is sort of the wonderful way, sort of side quarterbacking. mueller got this plea right after manafort was handed his head in virginia. he was not only convicted of multiple accounts come he came within one vote of basically being swept, the table being sucked up all counts, that he would've been convicted and everything picky was headed to

d.c. where it was a far worse trial waiting for him when he was looking really horrific allegations, all of which seem quite supported by the prosecution. he then flips with mueller, avoid to those convictions, pleads to ten counts and then sits there with mueller for months, right? when the critical moment comes he basically bolts. i know many people believe that trump is dangling out a pardon for them. so in the end manafort may have played mueller. we don't know. but what mueller is going to do is try to send this guy a way for the rest of his natural life and he very well could do that and less trump pardons him. >> let's go to houston, texas. >> caller: yes. hello? >> go ahead. >> caller: yes. i'm trying to call, everybody, all these different links to trump. why is everybody just excusing

trump of everything? like all the other people is not credible, it's not everything. there's something wrong and i just tried to see, everybody come in, they often trumpeted what else is just terrible. if it had been hillary clinton they always would -- [inaudible] hillary is not there. trump family and everybody is just involved with all of these collusion and all the stuff with russia, everything. he even spoke out, welcome russia, listen, do this and do this. i then they just ignore what you say and what he's doing. what is going on? is this man controlling everybody and the united states now? this is just wrong. everybody is it at the united states and just laughing, i know. this is so terrible. >> i guess the best advice i would give you is don't be played by either side. both sides are throwing stuff

into the air. the key is to look solely at what facts have been released in terms of criminal conduct. in fairness to donald trump, there has been no finding directly linking him that i can see of a clear crime. it is any mueller can't do that. more than poorly when to talk about people who made the apologists for trump or people on the other side who are accused of the same things coupled they don't matter. what matters is the special counsel. he is clearly driving hard. the last two weeks have shown that mueller is still trying to bag trump because the only reason for these witnesses and these complex that come up is they didn't give him material on trump. i think you can rest assured at least one person isn't falling for that type of spin, and that's robert mueller. >> cody is in florida,

republican. >> caller: good morning. it's a pleasure to speak with you. hey, mr. trump recently declassified documents that the doj and uk particularly didn't want released. so my question is, so what happens when the declassify documents that show that the bad actors of department of justice and fbi all become public and the truth comes out that this whole investigation was paid for by the clinton gain? you know, fusion, was involved, possibly british mi-6 was involved as well. so what happens when with all s information comes out? what do you think? >> tony, actually i'm quite interested in the fisa application. i think there are legitimate questions about what happened in that secret court. i've always been a critic of fisa. i was first encountered the fisa court when i was a lowly intern

at the nsa and had to go into that corporate i became a lifelong opponent of the court which i think is only loosely defined as a court, would you consider the standards that they use. every american should be troubled, if a secret warrant was sign that reside in large part on basically opposition research by the opposing party of donald trump and also the opposing, at that point the administration itself was the opposing party. that does raise a question of whether politics were or invol. not convinced that's the case but i do think that seeing that application would help, i don't think there's a lot of overclassification. we've had the fbi refused to release information in this by controversy before. when it has finally been released, it's clear this was not a legitimate argument for classification. some of the material the fbi has

been holding onto infighting was really material that would embarrass the fbi. i was immature that would disclose sources and methods. i happen to think it would be a good thing to even greater transparency come to some of this material released. >> what about the former fbi director james comey wanted to testify publicly and not behind close doors? >> on this when i think comey is dead wrong. i don't even know the basic would you go to court and say i'm not going to answer a legitimate subpoena because the conditions are not right for me. most judges would really hand your head in the courtroom. back to counsel and say you don't get to choose. that's the whole point of the subpoena. it's not like an invitation to a tea party. this is when everything else has failed and they say just. and so what comey is doing is trying to delay until the democrats come into power. i think a lot of judges would be missed and civil come you're trying to play this court,

trying use it to delay. i don't think you'll be successful. >> let's go to hot springs arkansas, shirley, and independent. >> good morning, mr. turley. i have watched on c-span2 to make separate times, one in juns not mr. seymour hersh, a reporter. he made this documentary, and i don't know why other people haven't watched that and no. and it seems like if they would just show that to everybody, especially in the mornings when people are watching, and he said that this whole thing was started by him. , even fbi dick cheney involved in it. if i know that and i'm just an in the country, why is everybody in washington

act like they are so crazy and don't know anything. not anfirst of all it is act. they are crazy. that is very helpful. people have to dig into this on their own. when i said don't be a chomp, voters have been played by both parties and it is not the first time. reporters have to keep their wits about them. they have to look into this on their own. truth there are arguments on both sides of this. i think there is a legitimate are you from trump supporters that how this investigation began is worrisome. that the extent to which the steele dossier was used, the fact the person was targeted was never charged. it is not clear what was there to justify the secret investigation.

on the other hand there are legitimate reasons ordering special counsel. i didn't support the special counsel i didn't support the special counsel investigation at the beginning of the administration because i was not clear on what the crime was under the special counsel investigation you're supposed to have an articulated crime and collusion is not a crime and that's i wrote about at the beginning. when trump fired james comey i changed my mind and said now we need a special counsel because the public has a right to expect an independent investigation. i think at the end of the day history is going to show there is merit on both sides but both parties have tried to s really spend this in a grotesque way. >> host: which of these people that are cooperating with robert mueller should give the president the most worry? >> guest: that's a really interesting question. who's the biggest torpedo in the water? i would have to say michael

cohen even though he has zero credibility in terms of his rather loose understanding of the truth. because cohen has this in my view an ethical practice of taking clients without their knowing it and also he skipped all of these records. the greatest threat that michael cohen presents is probably on a federal election violation, and those types of collateral crimes. not using messenger with russia. there's no indication that no one was was such a key player in the most serious allegation. but he could get the president series trouble on the collateral issue. he was the fix-it guy and that's not good. as for paul manafort, that's also not a clear indication that manafort was of the close to trump. manafort had a horrendously bad reputation in washington before this ever started. most of us were flabbergasted that the trump administration picked paul manafort.

he was perfectly radioactive as a lawyer. he had really sleazy associations or rather sleazy approach to the law. but he parachuted into the campaign for a short time, think that into search trouble with the training contact. the only interest in manafort is simply this. if the russians did want to collude and you had to round up the usual suspects to collude with, paul manafort would be on top of that list. he's a guy you could say that's a a guy who will collude with anyone at anytime if it works for him. that is i think mike mueller look at manafort because this is the guyuy everybody wanted to do something like that, would be on the top of your rolodex. >> host: i tweet, has anybody been charged with collusion with the russians? >> guest: no. what i said at the beginning, mark, for for a long time a lof people enemy talk about the crime of collusion. there is no crime of collusion

in the crime lakota bracelet people begin to accept that and they're saying how about conspiracy to defraud the united states? you get looser and was in terms of your definitions. one of the conscience i have stated in my columns is you've got to be really careful. people are so eager to bag dumped out that there extending these crimes to point that could really come back and hurt us. where you are criminalizing what may be political activities but as of now there is the crime that i can see connected to the president. he just issued the statement that he did didn't know about e wikileaks thing coming from stone and he didn't know about the trump tower meeting in advance. that doesn't necessarily mean that you can't have obstruction of other crimes but if robert mueller agrees that he doesn't evidence on those types of points it's going to be harder to sustain and narrative, criminal guard against the president. >> host: what would be the crime robert mueller might either prosecute or hand over to

the houseus of representatives? >> guest: i guess i would separate two things. it's going to be a target region five and once the report gets to the house it's going to be damning very likely. the president has really made the situation worse for himself by a lot of statements, a lot of actions. quite frankly if he had not fired james comey, if he simply fired at the beginning of this term i waited until the end of the russian investigation to find we neverfi would have had e special counsel investigation. it would be over in my view. >> we will leave this here to go live to the center for the national interest for a discussion u.s.-china relations and the recent relaxation of trade tariffs if we joined in progress. >> if you are here and interests in the subject so it hasn't escaped your attention that there are big changes in our relationship with china. while people talk a lot about that nobody talks much