>> new congress, , new leaders. watch it all on c-span. >> jacqueline simon is at her desk on day 24 of the ongoing government shutdown. she serves as policy director of the american federation of government employees, the largest federal employee unioned in the country and did you think this would go 24 days? >> guest: it was my worst fear, but yes, , yes, i am surpd it's goneis this long trip for w long did you think it will go? had a cyst in? >> guest: i have not: idea how long it will go.. you know, obviously there does seem to be some good possibilities for for a succesl resolution to all of this if senator mcconnell allows the boat in the senate of the house passed bills. whether that will happen when that will happen i don't know. >> host: do think that is the most likely pathu at this poin? what are doing for members of

congress that your group talks has been talking to? >> guest: our members are calling their senators and urging them to urge senator mcconnell to allow a vote. i more or less the exact same bill that passed the senate unanimously on december 19. >> host: by the way, until the end of our program this morning especially for federal employees. jacqueline simon is with afge, the nation's largest federal employee can you. should the government expected lose employees when this is all said and done or are people going to leave the federal service? >> guest: that depends on how long this thingng lasts. there are some misconceptions about the salaries and wages that federal employees earn. the members of our union are very modestly paid. in particular there's been a lot

of attention on transportation security officers, the people who do screenings, security screening at airports. at the airport down the road they started $28,000 for you. the you. the take-home lesson $500 a week. when that is your economic resources, you can't go very long without a paycheck. and so these are people who are very committed to the mission of the agency, very proud of the work they do. they do a great job. they can't do it for free. >> host: talk about the callouts and is that something that could be used as a tactic to put pressure on ending the shutdown? >> guest: callouts? >> host: the people of called in sick during the, essential employees are calling in sick. >> guest: i think that story has been exaggerated somewhat. certainly it's not condoned by our union. it's not coordinated by our union.er and they're still sickly during a furlough soow they can't even really take sick leave.

you also have to include the fact that there's ahe lot of cod and flu going around and their job exposes them to the general public everyday in a very intimate way. there's all kinds of factors that could explain that, but we are not encouraging people not to go to work who have been directed to go to work. whereli telling our members absolutely, if you have received notice from agency, telling you that you are required to go to work, that your job has been designated accepted, then you should absolutely go to work. >> host: can you quit if your dean and essential employee? if you're fed up by the shutdown can you quit today? >> guest: i guess you can always quit by not showing up. you are absent without leave and ultimately if you're absent withoutve leave, and subsequenty when the government reopens you inform the employer that you were not just absent, you had resigned, yes. >> host: is it any of the penalty if you do that during a shutdown entering a time when

you're deemed essential? >> guest: technically yes. in fact, we expect at least most supervisors and managers to understand that when you're in a nonpaid status, you're not allowed to use sickly but if you're genuinely ill and couldn't come to work, they would be very unlikely to impose discipline on the employee. i mean of course would represent them because we would want anyone to face any harmful consequences, any disciplinary action for illegitimate use of sickly. >> host: how many federal employees does afge represent? >> guest: about 700,000. we have federal templates and d.c. government employees. >> host: how many are directly impacted by the partial shutdown? >> guest: we are not when hundred% sure but about 200 50,000 or so. >> host: on the mostly in the d.c. area?

>> guest: mostly outside of the d.c. area. we represent fema workers and department of homeland security, border patrol, ice, tsa at airports all across the country, park service, forest service, epa which is all over the country, had also all over the country. we are dispersed by the. >> host: jacqueline simon, if you're a federal employee and want to call in and tells about your situation during the shutdown -- before we get to the skulls you are suing the government right now over the shutout on what grounds? >> guest: that it's a violation of theirth fair labor violations act. thatds guarantees workers certan protections, , one of themth probably most famous is the minimum wage. and that law says that an employer of the united states has to pay a worker at least, the federal minimum, $7.25 an

hour, hiring some places, and after an excess of 40 hours a week for some employees you are entitled to time in half for overtime. and, of course, whener the government is requiring people to work and paying them nothing, that violates minimum wage laws and other wage and hour laws, not the first shutdown on the first on you sue the federal government. can you talk about the history of the lawsuit on this issue? >> guest:gu i'm not an attorney so i don't want to say too much, but we sued successfully in 2013. >> host: what did you m w win? >> guest: act pay. same plot more or less same facts and were successful last time, so we're confident of success again this time. >> host: although back pain at this point pretty certain for federal employees, correct? >> guest: congressat has passed legislation, yes. >> host: what are you suing for this time then? >> guest: i guess liquidated damages when you fail to pay on

time. >> host: to the tune of how much? >> guest: i don't know. >> host: florida, good morning. >> caller: yes, good morning. i'd like to ask, i'm for the wall and firm trump 100% because he's not kicking the can down the road. he wants to fix this problem. my thing is, if we can sue the states for these sanctuary cities, when you go to bed at night and you lay your head down on the pillow because you lost a loved one that should not even in this country, why can't we do something about that? you know, look at new york. sanctuaries for all. california. that is not fair. that is just not fair to us. and the democrats do not want to

fix this problem because i think they are getting money somehow from cartel. i mean, does make any sense. why wouldn't they want to fix this problem? >> guest: well, i'm not sure i agree with all the premises of your question. i do think that both democrats and republicans care a lot about border security and the safety and the security of our country. and i think right now where there's a disagreement is both a means and ends. i think the idea of shutting down the government in order to force a particular solution on this issue is one thing, and having a reasoned debate in the congress of the united states with the white house is another. we certainly have very strong support within our union for border security. we represent border patrol agents pick would represent i.c.e. agents, and they do the

actual work of providing security at the border. we care very much about that issue but we want our members to be paid for the work that they do. >> host: i know afge is met with speaker pelosi and minority leader schumer. have you met with president trump? has your organization have any one-on-one meetings with the president? >> guest: know we have not. not at the national level. our national president recently sent president trump a letter asking for a resolution of this impasse, asking him to allow the senate to instruct senator mcconnell who seems to be taking his cues from the president to allow a vote on the house passed the appropriation bills, give the government back open again and then proceed with debate over or security. >> host: any response? >> guest: no. >> host: .

>> host: any plans to meet again with pelosi or schumer or anybody at the widest? >> guest: absolutely. we have lobbyists who are in comparable -- capital every day of the week. our members are calling their congressional representative, their senators and their representatives asking for a quick resolution of this impasse. we are asking, focusing most right now ofg course on the senate asking the senate to take uped the house passed appropriations package and the funding measure for the department of homeland security immediately and reopen the government. >> host: jacqueline simon with us for about another 15 minutes talking about of course the story we've been talking about weeks now here we are on day 24 of the ongoing government shutdown. specialized for federal employees. margie is in pennsylvania. good morning. >> caller: good morning. i would like to make a comment

to the young lady. the whole first hour of c-span this morning, i got the impression that the general public was very blasé. their attitude even had a little hostility. these jobs were good jobs with good benefits and people think they should have put something aside because this is not the first shutdown. and my actual question is, do your people payop union dues and are you avoiding those union dues for this time, or are you helping your people monetarily? that would be my question. thank you. >> guest: thanks for the question here thanks for calling me ali young lady. we of course are not receiving dues when our members are not being paid. we don't have the resources to help our members financially.

some units have a strike fund, but since federal employees are barred by law from ever going on strike and, of course, we would never call a strike, we don't have those kinds of resources to help people out. i don't think it's, i don't think none of our members who are being affected by this shutdown have savings. some do. what we hear from a lot of people is, you know, they had enoughut put away to make it through may be one missed paycheck, but now things are getting really dicey. and, of course, the timing couldn't be worse. january is a particularly that month financially for a lot of people. you've got all the bills coming in from christmas, and if you have any kind of medical appointments or prescription drug costs or anything like that, this is the beginning of

theav year you a very high deductibles you have to pay, copayments. federal employees in recent years have actually been priced out of traditional health insurance plans, so many of them have these high deductible plans so they're having to pay out-of-pocket to go to the doctor, to go to the hospital, to get their medicines. so it's really hitting people very hard. and remember, our members, there are some well-paid federal employees but our members are the rank-and-file, very modestly paid people. these are people whole are makig 30, 40, $50,000 a year. in most parts of the country you are middle class at that level, but you don't really have a lot of cushion after you've paid your taxes, your health insurance, your 401(k), or childcare, your rate, your car payment, maybe a student loan payment. there's not much left over. >> host: after this getting federal employees should revisit

the idea of a shutdown fund for the future? >> guest: no, i don't really think it's the responsibility of our organization or any other organization, to be honest, to create an insurance pool for irresponsible politicians. i mean, come on. this is not a cost the rest of us should have to bear. the congress of the united states and the president need to do their jobs. this is very serious business. this is a government of united states of america. it needs to operate in a a more reasonable and responsible fashion. >> host: frank is in big rock tennessee. good morning. >> caller: good morning. first of all i'd like to say god bless all the people that happen to put up with all this i think they should be paid some kind of interest plus any penalties that's incurred by their bills. i feel for them but also stand behind trump and the wall. the democrats need to do their

job.b. they areo going on vacation now down in the philippines. they don't care about thiss country. they need to come to the table and work for this country. >> guest: well, i, i don't know, i would be very reluctant to say that either democrats or republicans fail to care about this country. and ibo don't know, i don't know if any democrats, republicans are currently on vacation. i do think that at least from what i read in the newspaper, it is president trump was gotten up and walked out of the room in the context of efforts to negotiate and reach an end to this impasse. and that are republicans of come forward and said they were willing to have a vote on the house passed appropriation bills. and that's clearly a pathway forward. >> host: the polar question

the gets talked about a lot during the shutdown is who is to blame.st you are putting the blame squarely on president trumpyo ad republicans in congress? >> guest: you know, i do want to be the one to assign blame one way or another. there does seem to be an absolute refusal on the part of mitch mcconnell to allow the ensenate to vote on the house passed appropriations bills. and you know, if the shoe fits, that seems to be where the solution lies. and if he continues to refuse te allow a vote, then he's got responsibility for that reducing trauma washington "washington f viewers saw this puerto rican. -- saw this poll. constance is a retired federal

worker in warfield virginia. good morning. >> caller: good morning. everybody is trying to be so politically correct. but if mitch mcconnell would bring that bill act to the floor, the ones that they themselves past in december and have a houseboat on it, it would pass.. mitch mcconnell is the one that is holding up this thing along with connie says that he's a coin to bring it back because the president will veto it. that is all besides the point. president trump did not put mitch mcconnell in office. the people did. and he should be doing what is right, right now. and i call on mitch mcconnell and all of the republicans, senate and the house, to do their jobs l as the lady just said, yes, they should do their jobs. nobody should be held hostage because of their shenanigans or -- have the lowest rating ever,

the house and, the senate. and president, and all of the republicans held the house for two years. the wall -- >> host: what federal agency did you work in? >> caller: transportation. >> host: did you ever go to a shutdown? >> caller: yes, i did. >> host: how did you deal with it? , i was in supervision at the time, and i was given a package two weeks before the shutdown and i was to put the employees out. >> host: what does that mean? >> caller: it means i went around to stations that employees were in, and put them out of their job. they blamed it on the employees but it was not their fault. the administration actually put the employees out. and called a strike. this is in new york city. >> host: jacqueline simon, what you want want to take from

that? >> guest: i think you make a lot of very good points, particularly the fact that the senate voted unanimously on a bill that's virtually identical to the one that mitch mcconnell refuses to allow a vote on now. it's a new congress, new york, new congress. this is a 116th hundred 16th congress. there are a few new senators, but if they vote the way they voted on december 19, there's enough support too override any kind of veto. so that's really a fairly simple and straightforward path out of this mess. we were just on the verge of avoiding a shutdown in late december when the president responding to some critics i guess on cable news, decided to the goalposts and there was a bill he was ready to sign and then he decided he would not sign it. you've got, you described there's a clear way out of this

and it's for mitch mcconnell to allow a vote. >> host: scott, federal worker, go ahead. >> caller: good morning. i would like to provide my opinion on the blame. first of all, it's not one party. it's all the politicians are to blame. they were voted in to stand up and negotiate a bit of their constituents. they are not doing that. president obama ran in one office based on change. presidenton trump now also got n office race on change. america wants change. they want politicians have provided informationth they nee. another thing, congress, they failed their job with three continuing resolutions, so they didn't fund the government when they shouldn't. october is a new fiscal year and congress didn't do it then. there were not negotiating back then, so they are failing. one other point i like to

mention is that a employees, we can for unemployment if we so need to. because we're in a furlough status. >> host: is at something afge is recommending employees do? >> guest: yes, we are. when recommending unemployment eligibility varies by state but were absolutely recommending that furloughed employees apply for unemployment benefits interstate. i mean, it's money that helps you keep body and soul together. when this thing is over and you get back pay, you have to refund any of the unemployment benefits that you received, but absolutely you should get unemployment insurance benefits, if you're able. >> host: speaking of when this thing is over, kevin hassett had an interview with pbs "newshour" over the weekend and he talked about furloughs and the impact on federal employees.

here's what he had to say. >> workers arepa furloughed, and right now it'sug about 24% of government workers are furloughed which means you are not allowed to goed to work. but then when the shutdown ends to go back to work and they get there back pay. future government workers were going to take vacation days between christmas and new year's. and then we have shutdown and so they can't go to work and so then they have the vacation thau don't have to use the vacation days. and then they come back and take it there back pay, in some sense they are better off. >> guest: now. that's an absolutely absurd statement. federal employees are not better off as a result of this shutdown. they are hurting. they are facing very serious financial consequences. some even have, will have their security clearances placed in jeopardy when they fall behind on their bill. it's one of the first thing that puts the secret includes and ultimately a federal job in

jeopardy is falling behind on your bills. people will have to pay late fees. they may lose their day care slots, may even lose their homes if god for bid they were already behind in their payments. it's unequivocally unambiguously bad for federal employees. that's why the overwhelming majority, almost complete majority want this thing to and right away, just a few minutes before the end of our program today. day 24 ofth the government shutdown. we will take a few more calls with afge of the american federation of government employees. idaho falls idaho good morning. >> caller: good morning. good morning, c-span. thank you forth taking my call. my thing is that a lot of people just don't understand anything. like the government workers never hold people as hostage. but if the government as in the

president and the congress, republicans and senate republicans, , if they don't hae no concernic about people and workers, , you know, they couldo anything. but just like that tax cut they gave to the rich, they could've done the wall then, you know, use that money to pay for the wall. or you could just come out and tell the american people, you know what, i want to build a wall kind of what you guys to pay for it. just be honest with the people. and then they will go from there. >> guest: you're right, there certainly were many opportunities over the last two years when the republicans controlled both the house and the senate and obviously the white house, when they could have passed funding for this particular element of border

security, this notion of a wall, and they did, not. so i think your characterization of the current situation as holding federal employees hostage, we've used the word extortion, ponds, hostage situation, any of those things i think are good descriptionio of what's going on and it is shameful. >> host: leet is in south portland, maine. st good morning, yes. this is a lee and good morning to you. what i wanted to say was mitch mcconnell will not bring the bills up to be voted on because his wife works for donald trump. she's secretary of transportation. to me, that's a conflict of interest. and no wife if any of those senators that is anything to do with passing laws should be working for the president. is definitely a conflict of interest. don't you think that's the reason why mitch mcconnell will not bring those bills up for votes?

>> guest: well, i don't agree that spouses can't work for the same employer or be involved in the same kind of issues. obviously, the second of transportation has her own interests and professional responsibilities as does mitch mcconnell and there's lots of speculation as to why mitch mcconnell has been so reluctant, shall we say, that's a nice word, to allow a vote. your theory, it could be true but i certainly don't think that it would be fair to bar the spouses of t politicians or of political appointees from any particular occupation. >> host: less than a minute left. what is your plan for day 24 of the government shutdown? >> guest: we've been having protests at federal installations installation

and offices all over the country, and at senators offices. and we've encouraged our members just to make, to flood senate offices with phone calls, to ask their friends and their family members to put as much pressure as itt possibly can on senators to get a vote on the house v passed appropriations bill. >> host: have you tracked how many calls that is meant and what you been able to generate from what you been pushing? >> guest: somewhat aberrant organization has. it's numbers in the thousands but i couldn't tell you the number now. hopefully those numbers will grow a lot in the coming days. >> host: there is one more federal worker to chat with you. go ahead. >> caller: i've been coming in a little bit later to the show, but one thing i haven't heard mentioned is what other federal employees saying for us and our household can we feel like we have a lot of labels put on us that people out in the media are

just even, they want to say, if you feel this way, you know, you're a republican, or you feel this way, your democrat and they don't even ask our opinion of how we feel. we just get stuck with a lot of labels and i'm just wondering how many of the people you spoke with kindpe of feel almost ostracized by the general public? >> guest: thanks for that comment. i think that really important point. federal employees are apolitical -- they're not on one thing or another but another, another issue that i think maybe you're getting at is these labels essential and inessential. they are not even the labels of the federal agencies use. but the law is what decide who is required to work during the shutdown and who is locked out theirevented from doing job. and it really has to do with the protection of life, the

protection of property. then there's a little discretion on the part of politicians to decide who else. politicians run the agencies, who else gets to come to work and who gets locked out. but people who are locked out or not inessential. they do very important work for the american people and they should be respected for and appreciated for it, and we should get rid of these labels of essential and inessential because every federal employee is doing an important job that is essential tremor jacqueline simon is policy director at the american federation of government employees appreciate your time. >> guest: thank you so much. >> we will hear from president trump at the 100th annual convention of the american farm bureau federation in new orleans. we will take you there life when it gets underway on c-span2. until then more of today's "washington journal." >> alex joins us. works as an immigration policy analyst at the cato institute in washington, d.c. join us after the top administration last week

decided thousands of special interest aliens encountered at the southern border as the reason for the need for the border wall. first explain how one gets classified as as a special intt aliens and what that means. >> guest: basically two characteristics that determined that of the individual traveler that comes to the border. the first is whether they're from a country that has been designated as an origin point for special interest aliens, countries that are determined by the department of homeland security and consultation with intelligence agencies to determine which countries are more likely to set or produce terrorist threats against the united states prep the second is based on travel patterns of individual involved. now as far as we canhe tell by r analysis and the government does make clear what these travel patterns specifically are, basically for not able to get a visa to come to the is directly but you get a visa or some other way you go to central america and you make it up to the border and you're from one of those