history of the athletes, the sports writers and the fans who have stood up to the machine. if for no other reason than knowing the history i think it allows us to look up the world and see that the struggle can affect every aspect of life in the system even the ivory tower known as sports now on the political situation in venezuela just as president nicolas was sworn in for a second term which a number of latin american countries and others denounced as illegitimate the panelists gave recommendations fo for howe u.s. and others should respond and suggested diplomatic tools that would apply the most pressure on the government.

welcome, everybody and i want to extend a welcome to those joining us online. i'm the associate director of the program here. ..

. >> and that's why the international community does not recognize but i want to show you a map here. about 50 countries of the venezuela presidential election and this is one of the big reasons why we are here what does this mean and to respond to the crisis and

that response including the lima group the us, germany and france so we have things cving quick and that's why this type of discussion is critical to have. so in the face of such uncertainty and we are honored as a legendary ambassador to chile and colombia and venezuela and under the state department the responsibilities range from afghanistan and the drug

efforts and in the crisis and with the south china sea. and also a senior advisor but we are really honored to have you here ambassador thank you for being here. and last but not least the policymaker here in washington a senior associate who frivolously - - previously is served general mcmaster the director of south america and acting senior director at the national security council. and then he worked from obama's team in the white house as a special advisor to

obama so to work in two very different administrations. >> jesse you have an idea how we will run, we will focus on three things. today, right now we focus on what happened yesterday why are we discussing the lack of legitimacy and what it means then we talk about the response and assess the lima group declaration and we will talk about those and finally we will talk about the political implications moving forward and what happened yesterday has important legal implications moving forward so

what's the most important and where should we be thinking responding to these implications? and then we open to the audience for q&a and a woman - - i appreciate your patience and that we want enough time to cover that section. . >> thank you again for being here with us this is a critical time many of the eyes and ears of the international community are watching us. what is your assessment of what happened yesterday quick. >> i will start by apologizing to anyone that feels from the

eliot ness and untouchables suit to suggest i must me 100 years old and i acknowledge that i walked here this morning from wisconsin avenue. my apology is only for the appearance but not for the fact that i am wearing this. [laughter] but i fight could offer one man's opinion you will get another opinion after i finish from the distinguished man to my right, your left, the issue is fundamentally the legitimacy of the government that self inaugurated itself for a second term yesterday in caracas and the supreme court building. you have said the word equal

to or three times in your introduction i will address that from a legal perspectiveve we are not located in venezuela we are part of the international community observing and assessing and commenting on venezuela they don't call it common law they call it customary law with the legitimacy of governmentf if you throw out your international law textbooks you will find there are two basis by which legally one can say a national government is a legitimate. one is the means by which it comes to power so to a certain extent this is the pinochet model for example. i don't put myself in that category but some say he did a fairly good job while

exercising the presidency of chile or whatever it was for 16 years. but even if you are, you have to acknowledge he took power through illegitimate means. if it's based upon that standard with venezuela then you will see at best a questionable election and election process in may 2018. you will find the nationalism had an elected national assembly declare that election knoll and void and you will find the supreme court was more or less appointed constitutionally as opposed to that current body that asserts that the supreme court not only determines the elections

were knoll and void but barred nicholas from assuming office and as we look at the map, more than 50 governments in fact, i was having coffee with a gentleman who works for "the washington post" yesterday who i will not further name even though i do not see him in this group he said he thought it was about 70 governments as many as 70 have determined that the elections were illegitimate and finally among internationalhi organizations some way or another the european union the group of 20 and most important the group of lima have all rejected those results. have we not passed the

threshold as the yesterday to come to office under illegitimate circumstances? i would argue that we have international law says there is a second way government can be declared illegitimate and i am much more confident to say this is the adolf hitler model that the government or an individual who comes to power through democratic or constitutional means most historians agree that adolf hitler did when the election as the chancellor in 1933 but then subsequently put in that extra constitutional nondemocratic manner so let's take a look at ten years of public t reporting on human rights violations, corruption , taking steps to request

democracy and democratic activities elicit criminal organized activity through all parts of the government resulting in sanctions not just for my own beloved government but countries around the world. does this pass the hitler test? i would say you could make a strong case that itd does. so by either of the two standards established by customary international law to determine the legitimacy of a sovereign government arriving in office through illegitimate means or to behave in an illegitimateed manner after arriving in office, i suggest the government meets both of those tests. that's the end of my presentation your honor. [laughter] . >> so let's get your thoughts on what happened and then we

will go to questions and discussions. >> first of all,, thank you anfor putting this on and having us. i have a few more years than you with experience. >> i'll be dead by then. . >> that it's fun to be here thank you for coming in constantly supporting this very important cause. >> was started in 2016 is how we got to yesterday you could go back and argue it started later but as that point there was a recall referendum put on by the opposition they were

scrambling trying to figure out he was not very popular the economy was going down and things were starting to hit a wall people are realizing it's time for changeas so the opposition pulls the plug to put together the recall referendum up until that point to be democratically elected with a legitimate leader? i believe so you love him or hate him but for the most part was a legitimate democratic leader. but words were exchange the referendum never went forward the supreme court which is nothing but a joke at this point repeated the guy in the way of the referendum to the point they just completely shut it down and said it will notus happen. so to me that was a critical point to define that he went

from being a legitimate democratic leader to no longer being a legitimate democratic leader but at that point you ceased to respect the institution of democracy is a point even if you were elected at first, you are no longer a legitimate democratic leader now the people of venezuela say this is a democracy by the way the situation is horrible on the ground we can find food or medicine so the protest start and things start to get bad and then asad starts to shoot people instead of improving the situation then you get to the referendum july 2017 very interesting referendum one for the opposition that says come out and support us.

you are reforming the constitution. the other says support me to say you are in favor of a constitutional reform. we have the referendum for the opposition and then the next week if you believe the numbers which have not been verified but remember we know the numbers are not pure and the opposition allowed the international monitors and the companies that ran the election process came out publicly to say the numbers were tampered. so now we say okay more people in venezuela were against this thing and for this. that is basic referendum but yet he ignores the people and ignores democracy to say we will reform the constitution

that's what the people voted for even though that is not true. that was beyond thewe scope to say he isn't democratically elected anymore now it's a dictatorship and now the next day general mcmaster went to the white house podium to declare victory so that was the moment the united states the region was not there yet and where we crossed the threshold for democratic leader to deck - - dictator we labeled a dictator only the fourth living head of state aside and kim jung-un and zimbabwe. that is the colts he had the honor of joining at that point not a great moment for the united states government but

yet we were firmly of the belief he crossed the threshold so a few months later iner 2018 the illegitimate elections take place the opposition doesn't take part because nobody believes they are fair or honest but they still take place and even if you believe the numbers which we know they are inflated and not real, 6 million people show up to vote for him. nine months earlier the referendum 2 had seven.2 million show up against him. democracy. what do the people actually wan want? they do not want him what happened yesterday with the inauguration was the culmination of these moments that have completely and utterly destroyed any semblance of democracy within venezuela. he is a dictator and the united states government has recognized that in the international community came to terms with that.

now perhaps what is a bit frustratinghe where as the summer of 17 the venezuelan people rallied in the international community was not fully there. but now the international community has rallied but the people are nowhere to be found. it is an interesting dynamic but i'm sure we will get to that. but it was the official internationally recognized and of democracy in venezuela that was a helpful catch up because there are so many events going on it's hard to catch up. so now let's move on to the international community response because that could help shape a little bit where we are and where we should t be heading.

and then to show that declaration and the american conscious like brazil but the us is very closely engaged and when this declaration was discussed. you get to hear the 12 main points and i want to hear from the speakers that how important is this declaration? why this declaration matters? and this is where i really want to get is the declaration

good enough? again it isn't dave dictate - - a dictatorship only but it represses the people then we can get into more details. >> let me start. if this were a united nations declaration we would say you have the 12 where as this or that but on the next slide they are not allowed to see but there is one because i have seen it is the seven therefore calls for additional action or whatever might be required. ladies and gentlemen,, this was a good declaration.

i will say it quite clearly. it is tough but yet it is fair in terms of the conclusions that it reaches and the acts that it calls for. and those amongst us in several of you grouchy people i can see in the audience right now from time tond time have been mildly critical of the lima in terms of what they have or have not done have an obligation to acknowledge that this in fact, was a good piece of work. i have said it and i will go one step further. i believe it demonstrates, my opinion only nobody has confirmed but it demonstrates considerable leadership by the two most important south american governments and

countries that are directly affected and impacted by what is happening in venezuela today and the two geographic neighbors the republic of colombia and the federated state of brazil. i want to acknowledge that leadership as well. if this waser january 3rd, i would have offered some views as to what i thought the group of lima should w do because i hate having to prepare twice for the same meeting that has used my list of what i would have said to you eight days ago compared to what the lima group did last friday the fourth. first, i would have said it is imperative they disavowed the legitimacy of this government of this mafia state.

in fact, they have done a pretty good job in terms of the results of the 2018 election were illegitimate. but i will give them a check mark to accomplishhe that. second, it is imperative they herecognize the legitimacy and authority of the still sitting national assembly in terms of being a constitutional body to represent the genuine government of venezuela. i give them a check mark on that one as well. a better way to say that? may be better to support and recognize the national assembly is pretty i good. as the sole legislative body

but i'm saying has the lima group done well? yes they have. and so to recognize the legacy of venezuela and to recognize the rulings. they talk about the integrity and independence of the supreme court i wish they had gone estate loan - - a step further to call for all countries in the i world to respect and honor and follow but nevertheless. but nevertheless. with international humanitarian assistance now. they also get a. check minus on my book as well but if we go

to the next slide eventually , they call for the government of venezuela to permit - - permit humanitarian assistance. let's stop waiting for the government of nicaragua to technology humanitarian crisis and invite humanitarian assistance. call for that right now. start delivering humanitarian assistance even at the end of the day what we get our videos and trucks filled with the essential food and medicine at least it sends a message and a signal s i give them credit for the government and say take it further and say to the

international community, let's start delivering now and perhaps later we will discuss ideas in terms of how and where to do that. number six, i hope the lima group will cancel diplomatic accreditation for officials representing the government venezuela overseas. they called for reassessing and reevaluating. that is a good't thing. i understand the code they have to acknowledge the reality that they have a good number of venezuela and diplomats that are accredited in the government and a good number of diplomats currently located in venezuela so they have to be more careful than

we hear sitting here at csi s but this would have been better if there was a clear signal to say it's time to start sending these boys and girls home. they do not represent a legitimate government. number six, they should state quite clearly, do not provide a visa to the government representatives to visit or reside or full time permanent responsibilities. say to the world this is the time to stop doing that. are there exceptions? of course, we knowledge the reality they have more than 30 million people although the population is diminishing now thanks to the government but nevertheless, there is the reality of having to deal with a nation of that size that does have certain economic outputs of interest to the

region and to the world but nevertheless a clear signal would have been helpful. seven, time to disavow international agreements with other governments know why acknowledge there are certain realities the nations that have thousands of citizens inside venezuela have to be careful what they disavow and what they do not that the group of lima was a bit clearer to send a signal to the international community that now was at the time to umstop any further agreements with this government terminate, cancel, disavow agreements that they can do. i wish they can be clearer on that. i would have told you one week and one day ago the diaspora

of venezuela somewhere in the vicinity of 4 million human beings and those that our sympathetic to that decision say it is perhaps 2 million i say between two and 4 million i wish the lima group would look upon them as an opportunity to organize in some way to realize that has certain implications but you cannot tell me that for a million human beings who have been misplaced cannot somehow organize themselves in terms of managing humanitarian assistance as well as going

into the country and cannot organize themselves in some wayy for the opinion or political decisions to support the effort of the national assembly that continues to reside inside venezuela and a courageous political opposition hanging on by the fingernails. it has the ability to do something that their colleague and the counterparts cannot d do, because it would produce the immediate incarceration and give the international community the opportunity to push for the diaspora to organizee in some way. individuals identified as leaders. maybe or maybe not they get there naturally by managing

real-world issues between two and 4 million people and growing in numbers of how to manage venezuela as part of the diaspora. those are the eight things i would've hoped for from the group of lima a little over a week ago. they did pretty well for out of eight i wish they had done more of the other four. it was a good declaration. it could have been better. thank you. >> so first i want to ask you about the two points number three and number 12. so january 10th came but with that declaration and the

lima group also separated powers to the national assembly which now he likely will not do that so now what should the lima group do so how do we get inside venezuela. >> and that lima group declaration, i will be honest i was very surprised. i do not expect it to go that far. in the past they have been very strong in rhetoric but weak on substance. and i'll take part of the responsibility that we would

praise them quite a bit for existing in the first place at the white house to say the smallest things because a few years ago we never imagined that it could actually rise and speak out against one of their own.ir we were so thrilled when they would use rhetoric we saw that as a let that be but it evolved quite a bit the last few years and no doubt it is past time for action but to see that was surprising to have the guts to actually go out to say the rightun thing and then to back that up but i will be honest it is also scary and not for the reasons what if they back it up but what if they don't? that is what really concerns me. now to put themselves out on the line like in 2013 when president obama went out and i

see this as the aside moment where the lima group says as a collective it's time to go. they say that flat out he cannot be sworn in again. he wasn't going to listen to them. so he didn't know he's been sworn in again and now what? now your credibility is on the line so what will you do now? he has defied you. it is a scary diplomatic do you allow him to win and then lose your credibility as this group of countries and leaders in the region? or do you push back or how? that is the critical question. assuming they will push back and followw through i know

paraguay they are always upfront and ready to go on venezuela g they closed the embassy, they are doing excellent work to show leadership on this. we heard statements from argentina yesterday and peru. surprisingly nothing from brazil surprisingly nothing from columbia. but i'm sure those two countries i have no doubt will be not behind the ball that l.ading the way so if anything there is more to come. but what i think it is critical is we follow the strong angry statements in action if it's just rhetoric or more of the same than nothing will change. so what will you do? what actions can you take?

so to reevaluate a diplomatic status is 100 percent correct and who you allow into your country is 100 percent correct and that the time for us to say that this person can turn good is gone we have tried every approach that we can to get people to talk to us and it's time to say they are there by choice and they are bad people unless they want to prove otherwise but if they are still there are high ranking members of the military the burden is 100 percent on them. is time to go after all of those people.

don't let any person into a negotiating room or take anybody seriously. fly get to enter pole. don't let these people out of their country ever again. if you think of the criminal enterprise the mafia state it relies on the fact a lot of these officials can keep getting all the corrupt money then go ony vacation from europe to latin america or anywhere else they want to go. and we see that from the top. . >> so if they ever step foot outside of their country they have the fear of being elected

so inside venezuela the only escape is a trip to cuba that is a much better because you can have all the money in the world w but if you're corrupt money can be spent then it is worthless so that is the critical critical next step in on the last point on humanitarian aid i worked for usaid for a while it is a complete disaster this is a human made disaster there's no hurricanes or earthquakes or anything you can point to to say they are suffering because of a diseasehe or nothing that bad man made decision simply just out of pure cynicism and evil at this point he will not

allow aid into his country maybe a few years ago you could have said that word acknowledge the failing state there is no optics battle anymore nobody actually believes the state is fine that venezuela is prospering. nobody. so how do you still not allow humanitarian aid into your country people talk about maduro getting in exit ramp for him not being tried very harshly because these types of decisions i don't know how you get away from that in the eyes of justice. the blood of the people of venezuela our on his hands and every day it gets worse and

every day the predicament gets worse. i completely agree with the ambassador is time for the international community to step up the people need to see there is noar doubt who was killing them in the streets and starvation and everything else. >> so going back to january 10 we have a new president not only the international community that the venezuelan people and the military to recognize him and the national assembly before he assumes the presidency himself so we face the chicken and the egg problem f that we many times have phased. so to you ambassador, how do

we deal with that dilemma of the chicken and the egg? and w the president of the republic quick. >> with some sort of modifier like transitional president or interim president that he also would not have reached the presidency through the lawful constitutional democratic process. at this point, i would be prepared to say you can make a compelling argument a political argument a diplomatic argument that any sovereign government in the world is within its rights to make that decision and from

our perspective is at this time the entered --dash transitional president from the republic of venezuela. there are times when a legal position has to come to grips in which it is made or implemented. and the real world to be very restricted to be permitted to do inside venezuela and that is precisely defined and if he crosses any of those red lines he runs a very good a chance to

find himself in a prison cell so whatever the government may choose to place him. and those that are recognized as the members of the united nations do have to engage with those assessments to make their decisions. and those 320 million in terms of government another seven and a half t million around the world i believe there is a solid legal case to be made. the international community has concluded at this stage they are the sole remaining

constitutional organs and institutions in venezuela today if this is the determination of those institutions. and then have a legal right to say he is the interim president and we recognize that. the other is that if we make that determination and that's why we are in readings like this right now to work our way through these difficultem problems that they stubbornly refuse to roll back to my fascinating first or secondin presentation so let's take a look at this diaspora. not because they are 4 million venezuelans but because by definition they are located

outside of the reach of the current government in venezuela.in and those that would want to do that would not be permitted to do so because he is in the control those who are running things in venezuela today. i haven't thought this through completely but you cannot tell me with 4 billion human beings around the world for the most part concentrated there isn't a way to establish a permanent structure or organization that could eventually over time offer an alternative to the

government in caracas there i said it again. . >> good point i think the national assembly can do that and transfer some powers to the organization c outside of venezuela we can call it a diaspora or the legitimate representative of thehe national identity. whatever we call that we should be thinking in that direction because now we have the support of the whole international community as a legitimate representation but the ambassador just said a points that concerns the international community that concernste of safety either way if he assumes the presidency or not, there is a threat that he faces. i don't think if we recognize him as president but the

threat is happening now because there is a dictatorship in a democracy so it's not only him but it is a threat to be repressed so one way to face concerns international community is thinking when they do not recognize him as president of venezuela quick. >> it's almost two different points. to your point, will he be jailed? ii think the answer is yes weather tomorrow if he tries to take the oath or if he doesn't then maybe a month or two as international tensions died dow down, but i think he has proven himself time and again to go after any

opposition figure who appears to present a legitimate democratic style. will he go after him? yes. is it in exile or house arrest or torture or all of the above? we have seen that play out with every leader of the opposition thus far i wouldn't expect him to change his mind to become a good guy now. but will that happen sooner rather than later? that could be affected if he is sworn in if he's about to be sworn in tomorrow i would not expect them allow that to happen to flaunt that in his face with the speeches and tweets i don't think that will drastically alter the timeline

and beoo behind bars sooner rather than later but again, what is important for the international community to recognize first of all, can we? and i would love to hear from the ambassador. because of my understanding the united states is the one owe do not recognize governments. wewe recognize countries so they are in a difficult position where others could flat-out recognize the individual leader we say that is that so if there are two opposing claims to leadership, i'm not sure there is a lot of precedent in that situation

and let the people figure it out. but back to the bigger question we need to play a game ofig chess and not just making decisions on the fly. if we know recognizing leads to his arrest, what is the decision at that point? we have to have that decision made it would be irresponsible in a smart and well thought out way. and we have to back up with action because it's very easy to have frederick and put out a statement without some real-world implications and for the venezuelan people. andn all that comes out of that is torture and nothing else than we will have done a

disservice. so if we are going to take that step, what tangible action are we prepared to take to back that up? with the so-called legitimate leadero- is tortured and what else quick. >> so what about these in the country? . >> can you recognize the country versus? . >> i will offer you the fruits of 39 years of experience diplomatic service of the united states of america. at the end of careful assessment and review i hear from the secretary of state transmitting the views of the president of united states we wish you recognize this individual as the president of

the government of another country, i will find a a way to find a diplomatic precedent or legal interpretation and required statements of the united states code and if i have to the constitution to indicate this is what we can do when we will do it. if at the end of the day i don't work for the department any longer but if i hear from the secretary of state we want to be careful and not be drawn into this despite 180 million americans who are screaming at us to do it immediately right now, i will do a careful review and find never before in the history of the united states of america have we ever taken a step to recognize an individual as president when there are others whori claim the same position i am both a diplomat even went to law school the finest law school in the nation located in the city off austin of the lone

star state. so i have no discomfort to assure you that i could find a way to defend a decision either way. but the more pragmatic point it's not necessarily a legal or diplomatic issue. we have to think this through in terms what is best of the united states interest and those individuals inside venezuela that courageously tried to fight for some reform of constitutional democracy in their nation. so let us figure who are we trying to support and help and how we can best do that and at times just staying silent could be the best thing that

we could do maybe if we could get 50 other countries to join us on the same day to recognize an individual might give him some degree of protection or at least make it harder for him to be picked up on the street the next morning when he steps out of his house. it depends on the circumstances and who else is prepared to join us. it is not one-size-fits-all it is not always the same decision all the time. but it is definitely something all of us those that are or were in government as long as they think through and to inform the decisions of government, how we should proceed. i am willing to speculate most of the people seated in this room right now agree that the government is not a good thing for venezuela that's the easy part. the harder part is hammering out there for how do we as the

united states of america and the broader international community react to and respond to that?er sorry. i will stop there. >> inc. ambassador. so now to open up to q&a we want to discuss the implications legal political diplomatic i think countries declare that he lacks legitimacy. so what does this mean moving forward? maybe not today but in the next few weeks or next month have is that lack of legitimacy to assume its role toco contracts and agreements

and diplomatic relations with the parties venezuela. . >> and those type of implications you were facing. >> i have a few ideas but one that has worked fairly well since helen of troy about 3000 years ago that is the principle of reciprocity. simply stated it can be articulated in the following way that if you screw up we will screw you and exactly the same way simply stated is the principal of reciprocity if you cancel them for us we will cancel them for you throw out our diplomats people throw out yours if you ceased to recognize the government we

have to keep this in mind and to a certain extent it's more of an issue for those that don't have the benefit of the population of 320 million and the global presence and to be located in the same region as the republic of venezuela that is pushing out between one and 2 million citizens every year but you have to take that into account that is one legitimate concern. a isn't just agreements but also contracts there are many individuals and companies and organizations that have contracts of some nature in venezuela. and some of them are billions

of dollars of value. we have to take the interest of those contractors into account. we may assess that and say tough luck. you have every reason to understand who you are closing a deal with or even better that it's a dirty deal from the very beginning dough - - go cry to the judge we will not take your concerns into account. others will say we've been here 40 years why should we be held accountable having to pay the price for political changes? w we have to keep in mind as we work our way throughgh the issues w and we will put into people making clear and coherent and compelling and figure how to play and from the diplomatic international community perspective to keep in mind as we work to these

problems not insignificant players in the international community but to speak overwhelmingly russian and mandarin or cantonese or chinese will probably not be on the side of the good guys this matter. now it is only two countries but they are kind of significant. they do have a substantial amount of investment political economic and even security and we have to remember as we work her way through these problems sets they are not allies or friends as we work these issues.is fourth fernando and i have worked through the issue fairly fairly aggressively remember the capabilities of the mafia state to retaliate inside venezuela and that has

to be something we take into account as we work our way through the decision. and finally, i have been through 1980 the first time i think in recordedst history that i'm aware of government determined to use the offense if weapon to push its own citizens out from the country and those capabilities of another country actually watch that become the position where i was a first vice council and a very young man in 1980 but those lessons that we learn from that is this something elseet that he could do? yes. in the course of 2019 between one and 2 million venezuelans will hit the road and become

refugees to escape their nation. through. >> it's pushing a little bit here let's talk about concrete steps forward to name and recognize a representative from the national assembly if they are assuming that role it would

force other companies to pay for the national assembly but i want to get both a few quick thoughts. >> a point that i made earlier in the summer of 2017, the venezuelan people for their and the international community let them down. i think the united states did a decent chop the communit job bus a whole wasn't there when they needed them to be there. now we have the opposite situation. the community is there as of yesterday people were rallied up in the community, everybody was on the same page and we finally

kind of all our one big happy family, but the venezuelan people are not there and so, of course i understand the harsh situation that they are living in and he has done everything in his power to suppress his own people, to brinkley have enough food in to shore up the streets to protest what i have to say they will not resolve this problem alone. it's impossible for the community from the outside to resolve the problem. this problem will have to be resulted primarily by the venezuelan people. it is their country. and so if i were understanding the circumstances, i would strongly encourage as much as possible for people to show up again and people to march and say what they want. if people don't agree with the

decision yesterday and they live in venezuela it's time to show up and tell the world and get ad get a momentum to move forward together. what i think didn't wor could wt 2017 code works right now if we have all of the world marching in the same direction we are going to be in a very good place as far as putting the actual pressure on their inner circle. but again, that requires first and foremost but people need to lead. so that's my first point about the next steps and what it really needs to happen for this momentum to not die. the next point i would make it come it took a while for them to get on board like others in the community, and finally we've got to the point we can at least consistently get resolutions passed that take 18 votes. and if you saw it yesterday's

resolution which was very good golf 19 votes, so it just crashed the threshold of what was needed and i'm glad that it passed. however if you want to take any action it did a little bit more, you will need 23 votes. if you read the charter that is the basic basis there is no clear case study of why the charter was written then to prevent what is happening today. despite the plethora and humanitarian crisis that is happening and the consequences of this crisis to the neighboring region they are

willing to come out and do a strong action on venezuela there is a potential benefit at this point the ambassador said they would veto anything that even mentions venezuela. if not, let's be pragmatic and stop going through that and let's go straight to the like-minded countries. the 19 countries that voted against venezuela represented 95% of the population of the western hemisphere, 98% of the gdp of the western hemisphere. i mean, something is wrong here. 98% of the gdp committee voted

in a certain way and it failed. is that democracy. so we have a separate issue to deal with, but regardless, that is the reality of where we are and we need to focus on the pragmatic and get things done. we can't get stuck in this bureaucratic nonsense. the final point i would make is that the momentum is there, the hope is up again. there could be a damaged the cause is the hope is once again shattered. we've been through this several times getting their hopes up, high expectations only to be let down. i really hope something big comes out of what we are doing right now. one of the last best chance is for this to be resolved through some sort of constitutional or peaceful way. if you doesn' it doesn't get rew in my mind we are up against a situation where either he has a new cuba and this will be a

permanent dictatorship for x. amount of decades or we have violence, whether that be a coup or the revolution or an invasion the only way at that point that we end this thing is through violence, so we are really at a fork in the road, and i hope that the venezuelan people will come out and show what democracy looks like to the world and will be able to with full backing of the international community to get this dictator out of there in as peaceful a way as possible. >> i know you have to stop but we have many people in the audience waiting for questions. >> i can't wait. >> just wait for the microphone.

>> for continuously being on top of this issue i think this battle they have now definitely in washington for the people making that decision in this country and those watching from other countries are those close to venezuela almost closer than anybody i know. having said that, the question i want to ask is related to the cost. we are having an issue that's what the voter is doing right now is usurping power and the pressure that has to come in is how do you raise the cost for him doing that so that it lasts a short period as possible and we eliminate this kind of confusion as to who is the legitimate government of venezuela.

but most of the civilized world doesn't recognize the full sense of the word that is one that has to be closed. clearly, and i am a fought the people that are making this decision have a responsibility y not just to solve the problems, a lot of our problems extend beyond venezuela and some of them as the ambassador mentioned have political ramifications causeway think that it's a little too much to ask and i would support people outside one probably know better so the question that i want to ask both of you is recognizing let's not

focus on if they get put in jail which i doubt it because the cost would almost be unbearable to becoming the last great mistake that if he has to leave the country or designate a representative of the governme government, recognizing venezuela legally isn't a great way of putting a tremendous amount of pressure on the guy who's sitting in the seat of power can pull the tools of power, cannot interact on the debt or manage any of the affairs of the country because those are now being managed from venezuela or outside of venezuela as a representation of the only legitimate authority running the country citizens of the kind of pressure we should be applying? >> let's do one more question behind you. yes.

>> i am a student at georgetown university and my question is the following. many legal solutions were mentioned, however many back home feel that they would take too long that they are not sufficient to address the rampant corruption systematically implemented throughout the entire governme government. what situations are possible solutions would be applicable given that to a certain degree the society is also corrupt? >> we have a couple of questions we want to ask first and then feel free to jump in. i still have a good number of

friendfriends although likely no speak about them in public because i would condemn them. i've maintained more friends than from any of the eight other different cities i've lived in my 39 years of diplomatic service. perhaps it will surprise you and perhaps it will not i do the same assessment you do and i think i reached the same conclusion that you do which is to say they recognizing something as the legitimate government and his band at the end of the day through its secondary impact which is to say negotiating contracts, having international agreements and being able to participate in international decision-making

would actually increase the pressure more than the down side of recognition. that isn't to say however that we should immediately make that decision. they reached the conclusion after a view good seconds after liberation and i suspect if we spend a few days with a good number of government experts, we at least would go due diligence to assess all of the potential impacts that would have both on the recognizing government goved countries as well as on venezuela itself, and finally i am in complete agreement we have an obligation both to consult with and think about the impact of what we are going to do on those that are still inside venezuela. it doesn't mean they necessarily get a veto but they certainly have a bright to say we are

comfortable with this or we are uncomfortable with this, but my own view is recognizing by whatever means they choose to do ithat so that it's consistent with our walls and constitutions and long-established diplomatic process, recognizing an alternative government probably would produce more pressure on them on the recognized government of them by not doing that. that's my position. he may now disagree or transfer himself from 1979 to 81 when it was a pearl of all of venezuela. >> just quickly to touch on pedro's question first. i agree in my mind, again without careful the lubrication that it would be more than a social harmful, however i have

been thoroughly wrong in my internal beliefs in the past. i will say when we call an interagency meeting and i know the ambassador attended dozens of thousands of these when you call and agency meeting together and you have the department of defense, department of justice, state, everybody is at the table and you say i have a great idea we should install a vending machine at the airport. you will hear all sorts of horrific ways that can destroy the world. first of all, illegal, second unconstitutional and can be then leaked to the press by that point. it's just amazing how quickly these things happen, but the point is there are legitimate concerns raised and concerns i would have never considered or thought about and there are when

they are not for the load, there are people that are working for the government who are good at what they good debate could do and knowledgeable on specific points. again whereas the appear to have more focus on the big picture, you know, there could very well be an international specialist could tell you the incredible difficulty that would cause to a specific part of something that could impact the situation on the ground. we can't predict there would be negative overall to the people so it has to be very carefully studied and analyzed and thoroughly debated among those that have something to provide input on that. to the second question should we follow the legal path that would be slower or should we follow some other path which

conveniently you do not name, but i imagine it would be a more aggressive path perhaps. so i think it's not either or. that is the thing we need to be doing now. it's not time for us to be slowly getting in line anymore. the time has passed. it's not time to for us to go saying we've done our part, wash your hands. at that time has long passed but we need to be doing everything. the court of justice is a legitimate process we need to go through and i'm glad they've reaffirmed that and that is something that will ultimately make a historic and important ruling that will help shape the course of how society looks back on what's happening in venezuela so it has its support. support. well that's all for here and now? though, so i agreed that isn't where we should be putting all

of our eggs. having said that, i do think there are legal processes that would have an impact. something i mentioned earlier about the interval news would be very effective as an approach to pressure into the inner circle of the regime and i would say let's expand from the inner circle to the broad circle because like i said earlier if you are still very you are complicit until you prove otherwise and it's not just at t the runaway in another year, now you need to bring documents and point out names and testify, whatever that is if you are still there you need to actively prove you were not complicit and you are willing to actively help bring down the beer at this poinbureau at thispoint to get . so i think if you go through that process, you will create an incredible amount of pressure. even the folks that help prop up evil dictators they love to go to disney world and go shopping

in miami. they love to have their son or daughter study at harvard or wherever else they pay for them to go to. they love to be able to when they have ... travel to the best hospitals in the world and get cured. that's what they used their corrupt money for and they love to have their beach house in 12 different countries they can just go travel to and enjoy. if they fear they will no longer be able to go to any real western civilized country and that their only recourse will be cuba maybe they will still have good doctors, but they will not be very happy. and when you get unhappy bribed officials they are not as happy and that's when you get people to turn. so go after them with red notices and i think that would be an effective process to follow before we consider anything in the market extrajudicial -- >> people fleeing the country, the former justice in a supreme

court now is in the u.s. and on the other side. >> that is a point i was trying to make earlier. i'm not making decisions anymore so i can just fine without consequences. i don't think that justice deserves to be treated in any pirouette or special way unless he is willing to bring with him evidence of corruption of the dictatorship and lack of democracy tha but tangible, physical, transparent go out and do a press conference and announce what he is brought as far as physical evidence. unless and until he does that, as much blood is on his hand ass if it feels is you can't change her mind after several people have died and hope that all is

forgiven. i think that's time ha that timd people now need to make a very clear break with substantive evidence being provided to help support the downfall. >> i want to get a question from the venezuelan journalists in the back. they are perhaps hearing from the people more than anyone else in the room, so i want to get a question from the back. right there. yes. >> venezuelans are so grateful for the international community that for so long they are arguing they can't resolve this crisis by themselves and so, as you said, ambassador, they are trapped. we had people vote but once they are proven illegitimacy they could remove the ambassador for

example. what are your remark is about the region having this exemplary action, for example. and my second question is more straightforward i promise, do you think that the administration can do something radical or decisive? because if we spend a year hearing from donald trump saying every opportunity on the table even the strong winds and of coursones and ofcourse we want t is to choose. >> i have kind of the same question for the voice of america to step up the

administration it will be in practical measures what do you think could be those measures? >> thank you. >> thank you. >> we have a couple of questions. i think one is critical and that is what's next. we tried many things in the past and we know statements like the declaration i agree it is a very good step that's not enough. more needs to be done. so, what's next from the government perspective and then the question for the removal. >> let me offer answers in the order which the questions came.

first, removal of other representatives. the problem, ladies and gentlemen, as already eluded to the internal order procedures in this case the organization of american states that classified through its charter the majority that are necessary to take certain steps and certain decisions can be taken by certain majority. certain positions require a larger majority and some require three quarters in agreement before they can actually implement a decision that has taken. we would have to review, but i would be fairly confident that

expelling a permanent representatives from the oas would require a supermajority that is going to be a problem as we push further in the organization such as the oas despite the fact he so eloquently and accurately stated of the 19 that have taken a stand on venezuela representing more than 95% of the total population of all of the americas and more than the 98% of the gross domestic product. sure to press the charter in the procedures be reformed, perhaps so, but that's going to require a super majority in order for such a decision to occur. your point is a good one. it is, however, the price we pay for the rules of the organizations that we have joined.

and let me tell you based on my limited experience if you think that the oas is a problem, just imagine take a problem and multiply it by ten and you are beginning to move it to the united nations in terms of how its system works. second, a more radical solution. a fair point by both of you having heard from now i am an american rising at the having heard from the administration for two years about more aggressive solutions, where's the meat and when are we actually going to see something. and i would argue first that we have not been sitting on our hands. there is a far more effective and vigorous approach over the past two years do we fall let's see over the say preceding two years and they are having an

impact even within old grouchy guy. the more of these guys that get sanctioned, the more pressure it's bringing to bear so i do insist upon getting some recognition for what has already occurred. that said, i agree completely we should be looking for ways collectively, that is the preference, collectively to take a more ambitious and aggressive, frightens a good number of people approached the venezuela policy. i pointed to a few ideas in the course of my incredibly powerful presentation and one is let's stop talking about asking him to permit humanitarian assistance, let's start moving humanitarian assistance to the border. force him to say no and line up

the armed officers to review board comes in. meanwhile, we unilaterally figure who was in venezuela whicwithin venezuelawhich is not could serve as the distribution mechanism. there are a few organizations that are big enough and well enough disciplined and have a good enough hierarchy that can serve that role. i would say that the something that is more meaty. second, what can we do in the diaspora we don't need to ask his permission in terms of working with them. i don't have any specific ideas but i did have contacts and that is to get them organized in some way, shape or form and let them establish bodies that have a permanent presence to perform certain functions wherever they may be. in my opinion they should not be in a madrid or washington or new york. i think they should be much closer to venezuela even if it is a little bit hot and muggy to

be seen to be performing a serious role and let them evolve as they make decisions and build a permanent into something that begins to look like an smel andi can't seem to be an alternative government to whatever it is he is projecting and there is other ideas out there as well which i will not offer right now, but you can figure them out as well as i can. if you have 2 million that are living within 50 miles of the border within venezuela, does this give you some options of opportunity? maybe. i think people should be taking a look at it. you can walk me down. these wacky, crazy, idiotic ideas. [laughter] >> [inaudible] >> absolutely. i think the ambassador said it well. from my perspective of being in this white house the first

roughly year and a half working on th the venezuelan policy, we were a blessing i will say that. we've taken everything but let me say any official statement that has been put out, i won't say everything that's been said, that every official statement out there was considered, was debated, was discussed. and i will say what can we do, we can do a lot. the question is what will we do because what are we the american people are prepared to bear and what will be somehow beneficial in the big picture to the venezuelan people, so when we talk about what's left in that kind of roadmap that we crafted of actions against venezuela, it is the oil embargo and it is war. at the end of the day unless there's been another 38 meetin

meetings, which is firmly possible and i'm not aware of it but in my mind at least those are the two main options left. the oil embargo is doable. we can certainly do if i don't even think economically that it would present a huge threat to the united states in any way especially right now with gas prices the way they are. the question though is what will be the impact to the people of venezuela if all of a sudden the united states controls about 95% through the oil purchase. venezuela expels its oil permanently to the united states and gives away a lot to china as a debt payment but as far as loyal but makes money against two or 3% of the gdp with india and primarily the united states, so if he were t we were to shutn and say this has stopped now that we've destroyed the economy

other people would argue it's an economic calamity and others would say this is your fault, you did this. so it is a pickle from the policy perspective to go to the billions and billions of dollars dozens of billions of dollars to fix the crisis. no doubt it is being debated right now it's a very big

decision to make. >> it's been an honor being with you in the panel. thank you so much. my conclusion if you let me we have proven it. thank you so much for coming. [applause]

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