>> guest: we are -- out of time and i think that's a interesting note to end it on as well. if we could get one more round of applause to our speaker. [applause] >> thank you so much everyone for coming out. gregory will be happy to sign and have a wonderful evening. >> and now on c-span 2's book tv. more television for serious readers. >> each month free minds book club hosts a buck discussion with inmates at the district of columbia jail in washington, d.c. founded in 2002 the free mind's book club goal is to connect inmates with literature through reading and writing. books to be discussed are collected in and selected with the inmates. >> it's much like war, prison is

such a negative space. such a spiritless space. it's hard to explain for real. just like how in this book, a lot of these stories, like i can feel him trying to express it in the best way he can, and it still don't seem to be adequate sometimes. and that's how i am feeling about trying to express what it's like to be in prison. >> free minds exists because of one young man who wanted to give back. his name was glen mcguinness. he was on death row in texas, at the age of 16. he wrote a letter to kelly tailor, and myself, at the time we were television news producers at australian broadcasting in dc. he basically said i want to stay

alive, and i want the world to know how many men of color are on death row. kelly, ended up doing a documentary about him but it was only aired in australia. and afterwards they became friends. she is a book lover. they would read the same book, and discuss it via letters. the idea for the book club was born because after he was executed, in 2000, he wanted us to work with youth charge -- as adults they are title 16. that's when started free minds. boys that are in the adult, criminal legal system. so eventually started 2002, 2000 we became an official nonprofit

in 2005. >> how many prisons or jails are you in. >> we are just in washington, d.c., but we are hoping to replicate. we are other prisons call us for advice, how to start a book club like this because this methodology is so simple and so powerful. >> peter: why is it powerful, what does it do? >> when you see yourself in a book you have this profound transformation that i am not alone with what i'm going through. that i can make sense of it, that i can heal from a traumatic experience that i've been through. i can be inspired by what the character's in the book went through, and overcame. and i can connect to another person. trust me, if you have an engagic

book, the your incarcerated population is their outcomes are going to soar. you're going to have a facility that is a place of learning, and true rehabilitation. instead of just like tension, and trying to come up with things -- you give somebody a book it's a whole new world. >> the book is sort of a middle ground. each of these guys has had a unique experience in their life and the book has this usually this abstract experience that everyone can connect to, and so it connects their experience to the book, and then by virtue of me being the facility ater along with clint we bring in the personal stories and they talk to each other through the book. >> our model is a non-reader but we have many members who taught themselves how to read. so you want to find content that is so compelling and something i want to read -- that's why we love georgia p, because it's

like that's my street in washington, d.c. i want people to know it's -- the voracious appetite for any co. book. >> peter: do you have to earn a seat in the book club. >> it has to be volunteer. and people just want to leave their cell, of course, but then they can't avoid the magic of books. then you want to come because you want to talk about the book. it's incredible to where it leads you to places you would never think about. when we pick a book we're like okay, we'll talk about the themes probably. no, you can just go a far field with really good insights. the whole format is so everybody can participate, so meditation to relax from the chaos around you. a game, to have that childlike playfulness that most of our members have been robbed of literally. they had to be a soldier on the

streets so young so you couldn't play a fun game. but it also helps you know the vocabulary and the word and helps with your literacy. so we do a game and discuss a book ask and then the writing for someone who is maybe shy or has anxiety about being in a group they can write, and all of them share but sometimes they don't. someone else could read it. so we just want to catch you whatever way to express yourself, we'll listen. >> in this session the free minds book club is discussing tim o'brien's vietnam war novel, "the things they carried." >> what's going on everybody. good to see you. we're going to get started the same way we get started everything type so we're going to do a meditation. make sure you're in your chair, feet on the ground, books down. today i thought we'd go for a walk in the snow.

walking our snowy street at night, where the lamp light lights up and the falling snowflakes and you are the only one out. it is one of the most peaceful experiences there is. we had one day of snow here in dc. do you remember that this year? so now everybody close their eyes. get comfortable with your feet on ground and your hands resting in your lap. you're bundled up and wearing jeans and a soft cotten t-shirt next to your skin. on top of that is your favorite hoodie, and on top of that a fluffy down jack and the a warm hat to cover your ears. it's late at night, and you're standing on a beautiful path lined with street lamps and big tall stress. you trees. you take a big breath in and feel the cold fresh breath in your lungs. if fills your lungs and makes

you feel healthy. you exhale and puff out steam that comes out of your mouth. take another deep breath in and let it out. your face feels cold and energized, snow is falling lightly. it lands gently all around you. you listen. the only thing you hear is the musical sound of snowflakes landing on your jacket and the snow above you. the snow has muted all of the sounds and you feel safe and protected, like in a snowy white cocoon. you love the way it feels here and decide to walk down this road. you are wearing brand new boots and they make perfect crunching sounds in the snow. as you near a street lamp you leap your head back. you track the snowflakes falling up and down. they're mesmerizing, so beautiful, thick and heavy as they float down towards you face. one lands in your eyelashes.

you open your mouth, and the snowflake lands on the center of your tongue. it is cold for an instance before it quickly disappears. you feel the magic of the winter. breathe in the cold air. and then breathe out. you come back to this place any time you want to. gradually, slowly, bring your attention back to the room, open your eyes. can anyone envision a place? >> yes. >> what are some places that came up? were they specific places? >> every time i meditate i can feel the sun. and you know my -- i enjoy the weather. >> even if we like go to a snowy place that's the place you come back to? that's your place where you feel

best? >> yes. >> and i was at home and my dog was -- the last time we had a big snowstorm the dog went out and was running through the snow. it was 5 or 6 in the morning and he had a ball. >> did you chase him? >> no i left him go. >> it made me think when i was a child that first snow when you make snow angels,. >> have you ever built a perfect snowman. >> i can't get them to look like they like on tvs. >> i never had carats in my fridge. >> it took me back to when i was a kid too, and for some reason

the charlie brown special popped into my head. i was a kid and sitting in front of the tv watching charlie brown. that was nice. >> do you all tend to do the meditations on your own. what does meditation meditationu in a space like this? >> we usually do our meditations on saturdays so that's the only time i can say i get a paste of mind because somewhat in the unit is noisy. so when i do get an opportunity to meditate, on saturdays, i am away from this place. so it's peace of mind, and at the same time it helps me find within who i am. so i can speak for myself if i was meditating. >> anybody else? >> fortunate to be in a

single-cell right now. so when i go in the cell, at night just falling back and then listen to the music or maybe i'm just letting my thoughts slow and that's meditation to me. and because -- like the brother was saying i'm able to go within. able to know myself better, and yeah. >> like what he's saying, it's like freeing your mind. we are in an incarcerated place. we get to go outside and meda tate. it takes you to certain places you feel confident. so it does tree your mind and it's good practice. so just being able to take our

mind off things with meditation is helpful. >> that's interesting because every time being on the outside, there's so many things that can distract you, you have a phone, you can always be on social media, or texting or calling, and it's in these moments when we come in here, that i do meditation most consistently, i actually don't often do it outside of here but it's a reminder that i need to. it's a reminder those three-four minutes or so even for me reading so peaceful in a way that that's what a regularly remind me i need to bring that sort of thing inside my own life. i think it's one of those things we forget how much time we don't spend in our own thoughts. we get lost in our own minds, and to your point, thinking about what kinds of things come to mind whether you just sit. when you don't feel like you need to be talking to somebody,

or fidgeting with something. so i'm appreciative of these reminders in here, and how it reminds me of the habits i need to have when i leave here as well. >> i'm -- i call it daydreaming. i don't know which one it is but i know sometimes it's go over this in my own space. >> i think that's important. cool. so we're going to transition to the game. have any of your heard head's up? >> we play so many games -- >> so they have it now on your phone, and basically we play this in the hospital, i don't know if i told you about the last time with my daughter we were playing in the hospital, and they have it on the phone, and the person that's playing or going or guessing holds the phone up to their head and a

word comes up and everyone that's looking has to help them figure out the word. we're going to do that today with cards. i'll give you all a card, take one, pass it down. if it gets to the end just pass it around again. don't look at the word on the card your job is to have others get you to guess the word. so you can't already know what it is. >> so you don't look at your word, and when it's your turn you're going to lift it up so that everybody else can see it except you, and we are going to try to help you guess what the word is. >> you can i use the back to jog your memory, they're all words from the book. and i know it's permanent marke.

>> we'll try to go around twice. we'll swing it back around and take two cards. maybe you can tuck it under your leg -- that's what i need to do because i can't control myself. >> so all these words are out outof the book? >> yes they have to do with the book. >> let's just go in order so let's start down here. >> all right. >> remember you can't say the

word. ready? >> you mad at -- it's not guilty something like that. >> anger? >> you wish you wouldn't have did it. >> regret? >> good job. >> we have it all the time. >> when you go through violence. this is a result of it. >> after somebody gets shot --

>> you need a what? we're all looking for what -- >> we're all looking for what from the court? >> the answer was secret. >> the answer was trauma. >> soldiers have them all the

time. >> 4th of july. >> good job, make sure everyone can see you. >> you have to be what? >> when you walk in the room and they have nothing but snakes in there. >> something that soldiers would use. >> courage?

>> what's another word for courage. >> what do you have to be for your dog? >> brave. >> you put your face -- on -- >> we'll do a couple more.

>> you have to go on the third-floor? >> like a nurse? >> draw blood? >> no it's a noun. so you have to go to a third floor. what's another word for the third-floor. >> affirm? >> no, a street person's word. >> husesler? >> no another word. a person that works in there. >> a vet? >> a medevac?

medic. yes. >> let's do two more. >> it feels real good when you don't have one for a long time. >> >> all right good job guys. let's pick up the book. i want to read a little bit to get it going? has everybody read the two

chapters that we are going to be discussing? let's do a little bit of popcorn reading to get us back into it. we know it might have been a little while since we've got through it. let's start on page 55. the story in the field. somebody want to volunteer to start? >> the platoon of 18 soldiers formed and began traveling shied by side through the deep pluck. they laid their foreheads down, and use the butts of their weapons. they ran to the across the river. they were tired and miserable. they wanted now to get it finished. -- was gone and under the mud and water folded in with the war and the only -- was to find him and dig him out and move on to

somewhere dry and warm. it was a hard night. the rains kept falling without stopping. the muck had now risen deep in the river. a low gray mist hover over the line. over to the west was soft moaning sounds, and a -- element of the war. the 18 soldiers continued moving. now straight his uniform was filled with mud. he had radio mia report with the name and circumstances but he was now determined to find his man no matter what even if it meant damming the river he would not lose a member of his command like this. he had been a fine soldier and a fine human being a devote

baptist, and there was no way the lieutenant would allow a good man to be lost. >> briefly stopped and watched -- except for some occasional thunder. it was a deeply quiet morning just the rain and the steady -- of 18 men wading through the thick waters. lieutenant wished the rain would let up, even for an hour. it would make things easier, but then he schugged. rain was the wall and you had to fight it. he looked across the field and yelled at one of his man to close up the rank. the young soldier stood by himself at the center of the field, knee-deep water reaching down with both hands as he was shifting an object below the surface. the boy's shoulder was shaking. jimmy yelled it again but the young soldier did not turn or

look up. everything kicked it with mud. the boy's first was impossible to make out. the field seemed to erase -- identities transforming the men into identical copies of a single soldiers, which was exactly how jimmy cross had been. as interchangeable unit of command. it was difficult sometimes but he tried to avoid that southern thinking. he had no military ambitions he preferred to view his man not as a unit but as human beings. >> he had been -- the very best and quiet spoken. very brave and decent. the kid's father to -- oklahoma city where he had been raised to believe in the promise of

salvation. under jesus christ. and this condition had been present in the boy's smile. and the way he never went anywhere without an illustrated new testament his father mailed to him as a birthday present in january. a yiem jimmy clawses thought looking out towards the river he knew for a fact he had made a mistake setting up here. the order had come from high, still he should have exercised some discretion. he should have moved to higher ground for the night, radioed in false coordinates. there was nothing he could do now, but still is it was a mistake and a hideous waste. he felt sick about it. standing in the deep waters of the field. he began composing a letter to his kid's father not mentioning the field just mentional what a fine soldier he had been, and what a fine human being and the kind of son any father could be

proud of forever. >> the search went slowly for a time the morning started to break. the sky turned a lighter shade of silver. there was a field of permanent twilight. they waded along the edge of the field closest to the river. they were tall men. but at times the muck came to mid-back other times to the crouch. he kept shaking his head and said -- i bet if he was here he'd laugh. waste is waste he said. a field you have to admit.

the men moved with slow, heavy steps. they produce a path with did you do sucks and i with each step they had to pull up to break the hole. the rain made quick dents in the water like tiny mouths and the stink was everywhere. when they reached the river they shifted a few meters to the north and began wading back up the field. . . i'm serious man, the morning was cold and wet. they had not slept during the

night. not even for a few minutes. all three of them were feeling the tension. as they moved across the field toward the village. there was nothing they could do. >> picked up there. >> slide him aboard a chopper. whenever a man died it was always the same. a desire to get over with quickly. no frills or ceremony. what they wanted now was to get under roof and forget what happened during the night. halfway across the field, mitchell sanders stopped. he stood for a moment with his eyes shut feeling along the bottom with a foot. then he passed his weapon over to norman, and went down into the muck. after second he held up a scummy green rucksack. the three men did not speak for a time. the pack was heavy with mud and water. did looking. inside were pair of -- and illustrate new testament. the guys around here somewhere.

but until the lt. screw him, yeah but some lieutenant sanders said, men don't know -- nobody knew about this. maybe so. maybe not. tell million places we could've set up last night for the man picks with the lantern -- latrine. norman stared down at the rucksack. it was made of dark green nylon with an aluminum frame. now they had serious look of flesh. it wasn't the lt fault, whose then? nobody. nobody knew until after. mitchell sanders made a sound in his throat. he hoist up the rucksack. slipped into the harness and pulled the straps tight. all right, with this much for sure, the men knew it was raining. he knew about the river, one plus one added up. you get exactly what happened. sanders bled at the river, move it he said, slowly them bending

against the rain, they began waiting again through the deep waters. their eyes down circling out from where they'd seen the rucksack. >> will halt there for now. when the rest of the chapter goes with people wrestling with this idea of who is to blame for his death and we ended on a part where a lot of them are blaming the lieutenant for the campo ended up being a field of bowel. to put it nicely. how are y'all thinking about that? can you think about this idea that there should be a specific person to blame for this person dying? >> on think it's a specific individual should be blamed. i just think that as soldiers, what i've gotten from the book as soldiers, you know, as lieutenant, he's going to feel like you know, he is responsible for what happened.

because from day one in early chapter, he was taking responsibility for what happened. even when in some of the soldiers was suffering with pt ds. but i don't think you know anyone should take you know, responsibility you know once an individual. you know, i felt like everyone should feel some type of way that you know, you know one of us is a soldier is gone and everyone felt some type of way of losing the next man stand behind them. as they said no one left behind. you know so as lieutenant you know, you feel some type of way. but i don't think all of the blame should be falling on him or anyone you know one individual should feel responsible. >> that is how society set up though there. always someone to take the blame. i mean everything you see in the society live in, always someone take the blame, someone got a get blamed for it.

i mean it happens all the time. i mean the tenant taking the blame, i'm in there looking at the lieutenant because he is superior. he the one that makes the decision. he is saying his decision came from high up. so it's like -- what do you do you've got, it orders you're supposed to follow. if you deviate from the orders in the something go wrong then your blame for that. you follow orders and then your blame for that too. you know a situation. >> if i was lieutenant anka have my men sitting in no -- they didn't know though. >> will they kind of, the people tried to warn them not to go in there so that's like a quarterback on the field. you got that we see blitz coming. the people telling clearly, don't go awry there, instead of

making them leave they probably should have put more attention to it why then telling them not to go there. >> the type of situation they just going to believe when people say, there were with them. then i can to take their word though. i mean -- >> they could be setting them up. >> if you in that situation, you put right in it, we are looking at the picture there in the picture. so was a whole different outlook. your mind would be different. i meant him to listen to them either. i'm like why listen to them? they might be tricking. >> somebody got a take that is the whole point like, someone got a take the blame then. >> the higher up and lieutenant because he's leaving them there. >> when the decision had been made, when the decision had been made, when the ships were carrying the containers, when

they're going through waters when there's a storm, they make a decision to go through, they have to go through.is not they can change their mind in the middle of what they do. you know what i'm saying? sonos gives them commands. >> like i think that it is not really for disregard in the order but had they did that and saved all the lives he would have got some type of reward for that. >> year full of people, freethinkers, your people the follow orders to get to be different type. have to be in a different type of level to be able to disregard your order and take it upon yourself to make your own decision. everybody not going to be able to do that. but in the military are instructed to follow, every day, there's not a lot of deviating. this is the order that come down, that's what you follow.

>> so when is it not to follow orders? >> you got to be the type of person -- >> me ask you this. one part of the chapter that we are reading right now, they trying to figure who to put the blame? so they say someone may need to take the blame for this. by the end of it they're just like, we have to get this man onto the stretcher and sent him off like we do every knows who dies. so there is a position of someone taking a blame for it and someone owning that and killing the burden. then on the opposite end this idea that it just happened, we have politico, we have to move on. which one of those feels right to you? do you feel you should carry the blame or do you feel you have to somewhat let it go? >> there has to be a responsibility in terms everyone always got to be thinking about how we can do things better in the future. and avoid loss of life. even the real can avoid that in

the war but avoid senseless loss of life may be. you know what i'm saying? then you gotta let it go because it's done. >> using it to say like what happened, what can we learn from this? let's move forward. >> right. >> when lieutenant was calling out to the boy, he was actually a boy, the boy, he was trying to figure who the boy was because he was searching for something.and a lot of people you would think that he searching but in reality he is not even searching for cody searching for a picture of a girl that he just showed the night before. and that boy kinda put the blame on himself. the boys like right before he pulled out the picture and showed him, he flashed the light, his adman look at this picture. he says she is cute and then they say that's when it started going down. shots firing and everything go down. so he put the blame on himself but at the same time he's not even focused on what happened. he's a guy got a picture of my girl. so it's like -- and then you

look at it again. when the people say he would been the person laughing at the situation. like we in a -- situation. we are in a field full of --. and i'm going to make jokes kind of a man, how ironic is this? wasted in the waste. you know he got killed in the waste. . at the end of the day they just got alike learn from and at the end of the day, you gotta move forward. >> imagine, let's do try perspective. imagine that you are apparent any front your child dad at work. do you feel as if it is important to be able to give the parents a specific reason, an explanation to what happened? not necessarily putting, i'm

trying to see if you feeling like the victim of something. versus part of a group of people who are maybe complicit in or are relevant to a situation which somebody's life was taken. select from the perspective of his parents, do they deserve an explanation or is it just enough to say, things got complicated? >> they deserve declination. absolutely. my experience you know what i have read and what i have seen, you know just like when they present the flag to a soldiers family. you know, they have some for instance, take for when the situation happened with what was that -- crossfire from the fire. you know when they try to cover the whole situation up. i mean you have to give then explanation. here, the family knows, the family knows what he or she was signing up for. you know, to engage in combat

war. so is a life in that situation where nine towns at a time you will not come back, nine times out of 10 you will not come back so i feel long story short of the parents do deserve to know. i tried to put myself in the soldiers shoes like i'm right there. and everything i read i tried to do that. >> i do think this is relevant, obsolete war is a very specific phenomenon. your software but making parallels but what about the theme of who should be held accountable for someone's death or for a harm committed against someone? how is it relevant to what you think about your own situations and your own life? >> is kind of what i was thinking about. like if you, see you in the

streets and your best friend gets shot and killed. of course you gotta tell the parents. but i'm not going to go into detail and say they ran up behind and blew his head off. i'm going to say man, he died, they just got to shooting and i'm sorry i have to tell you this but providing the details as far as he died, got in some -- in the pulled them out i think that i would leave that out and let the know he died defending his country. just courageous kind of thing. i wouldn't tell my friends mother like that details or the parents. but that's me, i don't know. >> is interesting because again we talked about this last session that theme of the things how we carry these things with us. in a way, it must feels like

you want to sort of lighten the load of what you're going to hand to the parents. because of something they will have to carry on their backs. but i'm here from other people might be a little bit less to know what happens you don't have to make up the exact story in your head. which one is better? is it better to do what he is saying let them son know something happen or better give them specifics and -- >> if they want specifics. >> yeah. you give it to them but otherwise, i agree. like -- happens and you know, he got killed. i mean you know you would not deliver like that to the parents. like i would just keep it vague. i think the information, the knowledge is more important than explanation. you know what i'm saying, the details of it. unless they like i need to know. and then -- >> when you want to know if your child was killed in war, do you want to know how they were killed? >> or not even in war but in the streets.

>> yeah. >> if you are on the street, i would like to know exactly what happened. but in the war, my mind said already that it's a possibility that my child might lose their life. >> so he got blown to pieces or -- i don't want to have that memory. but on the street my son are due to lose a life i want to know specifics. >> why is that? >> that's because i am not looking in society that a child could lose their life. it in a thought. >> you think there are people who -- >> ate my mindset. when i send them to school or whatever i'm expecting them to come home. if i send them off to war, another possibility he ain't coming home. >> but that's like the same thing. >> is crazy out there now also. like when it comes you just gotta be ready for it.

like all of these -- over the years, just being in the streets like, that's a real possibility that parents deal with on a daily basis. you know i know everybody familiar with the talk. you know the parents that got on t.v. and express their thoughts about how they got to talk to their 12 or 13-year-old black sons and brown sons when they start getting a little size on them, they start you know, growing up and they gotta have this talk with their sons to be like look, you rented to the police, you say yes sir, no, sir. you don't look them in the eyes too much. you don't do nothing that could cause you to lose your life. you know what i'm saying? so that's why i question why because it's like definitely a reality. and and -- >> yelled the possibility always going to be there. for everybody! >> also the parents feel that

they prefer to move on before their child because we never know, i'm not a parent. so we don't know how much it means to them you know to lose a child. i don't know what it means to lose a child. so my take, i would prefer, i wouldn't want an expedition. i would want to know how my son or daughter you know, >> a lot of people think you can provide peace of mind. >> i know it will be heartbreaking. i know that. i'm not saying it's not going to be heartbreaking. just imagine the kids going to school and shooting up the schools.you know, parents worried about their children now. you know my daughter, my son will come back. might not even in school no no. >> is not the same the. you are still getting closer child but you're going to

details and exactly you know what i'm saying? the darden school, a child died but you ain't going to say a gunman came in and ran him boom in the head. i can go into the deep details of what is. but regardless you still, the parents, you let them know your child died same way you let your friends parent know your child on the street. but you not going to give the supreme details that he got sucked into -- you know what i mean? still delivering the same message. >> i think the difference is like, when somebody die in the war, you know, it's like you become a patriot. you know you're a hero. so when you know people send their kids off to the military and go to the war, that's like me to some people it's like an honor. i mean you know, if you die in the war then that's like an honorable death. i mean they got memorial stuff downtown. you go down there and see the names of the people that died. it's different when someone is killed on the street.

>> what is special about this one? >> he didn't know -- >> a lot of people didn't like this war. when the veterans came back i guess they kinda felt almost like coming out of prison you know. you know they look down on us when you come out of prison, then you look for jobs you have a stigma. they had the same type of situation when they came back from vietnam. >> i can imagine in this work, the animosity toward people feeling like we shouldn't be there in the first place. just to give a different context in here that information that your child has died. it creates a whole different sentiment than we feel that we should be fighting and it's a worthy cause. >> to know that your child died for something senseless. >> right. >> also jimmy was taking responsibility from the very beginning. some of the lies that you know some of the soldiers that moved on he was taking responsibility

from the very beginning.and what i really like from when the war was over, how they created the brotherhood when they got in the early chapters. you know, they were checking on each other and you know that was still there they were talking, speaking of the things that they held onto, it's like you know like he said you know the picture, you have the stockings over his head, different little things. jimmy hid the letter for what's his name again? yeah, the one. [laughter] you know they are there little price, their little thing that help them through the war. >> am interested in this idea you brought up of people have had a shared experience then after they finished with that experience, forming some sort of social network or fellowship together and sort of like process that. i mean there's something

specific about like when stacy and i get together, we're both black fathers, right? so we are able to talk about our children, able to talk about we went to the same school in imagine, i know for folks i work with a lot of them find community alongside other people have also been formally incarcerated because there's something very specific and very unique about that experience that is difficult for other people to understand if you have not experienced it directly. do you think that we think about when you get out, is that something that you, you anticipate? or is it something that you're like, i want to remove myself -- >> like i been doing -- almost 20 years. i have a chance of going home, after 24 years aside, leaving him behind, it's real hard but he understands that i have to move on. you know so you can -- you can

lend to the people who understand what you're going through. like you both of y'all as parents, you know you can relate to him for being parents. you know ns being in the situation right here, we can relate to each other very well. but also as the ones who are determined, who is willing to stay out there in society and do the right thing and share their bond, caring for their friend, your friendship takes time. you know so it is something that you don't anticipate. >> to go along with this, this part at the end of the chapter it says in the field, causes were immediate, a moment of carelessness or bad judgment, or plain stupidity carry consequences that lasted forever. and a lot of times roaming the streets we say we in the field.

like they and the war in the field will be in the streets we in the field. so even once we get locked up for maybe a mistake or a decision that you make, just at a plain stupidity, is there, you carry consequences that last forever. so we say people that have been in for 20 years, 24 years, 25 years, these type of consequences last a long time. some of the decisions that we make, we go through that you know we are in the field right now. so we can all relate in the circle right now in this book club and have a common ground so we all can relate to each other. we can all express some of the things and being in the setting helps us process some of the stuff we going through. because we all create different things. like just being a five years, about to get more time, 20 years.so now i ask how did you get through the 20 years? because i'm at the beginning now i don't even know how to

start. so all of us is going through this with each other. and it's definitely something that is a platform and it's helping us process and deal with the things that are occurring and i think is going through this together will be able to help us process and help us get it out. >> is very much like war in a sense you know what i'm saying? and not so much the physical stuff. you know what i mean? even though that's a part of it when you are institutions but it's mental. you know what i mean? it's 85 percent mental. and every day is a fight to stay sane, to stay up late, you know what i mean? to stay positive.because prison is such a negative space and such a spiritless space, you know what i'm saying? and so, it is a specific artery that builds between dudes when

we in jail. you know what i'm saying? especially if we constantly trying to be positive every day. and trying to grow and trying to be better. you know, we find strength in each other, you know what i mean? talking to each other, building with each other, trying to be creative and as proactive as we can be in a place that's just all about restriction and all about power and control over you. you know what i'm saying? so it's hard to explain for real for real. just like how in this book a lot of the stories like i can feel him trying to express it in the best we can. and it still don't seem to be adequate sometimes. you know what i mean? that's how i be feeling about trying to express what is to be in prison for an extended period of time.>> and at the same chapter, i forget the soldiers name but he is home, driving on the lake. he keeps thinking about going

to a girl that he liked about his war stories. what about sharing your stories with people that didn't have the same experiences? is that something anticipate? how do you feel about that? >> i'm setting my goals real high for myself. you know, michael, one of the goals i set for myself is helping the at risk youth. i know that a lot of individuals say they are overdoing this or that. my heart is truly for the kids. if i can save one child, i know i can't save all but if i can save one and share my experience, what i have been through, you know i feel good about myself but i also want to gain the parents just because i know that i have the children in my company so to speak. you know so i'm really looking forward to helping the youth. >> to piggyback off of what all them said, growing up i had a lot of people that get locked up in jail and everything.

and i kind of was lackadaisical, like a lot of things they were asking for money in different is it that but after experiencing it, i saw something i know for fact, when i get out, anyone i can help in any type of way like i'm going to be much more on it. so it's just the respect and understanding what it is to be locked up. >> you're saying you didn't fully appreciate before you came in how >> i didn't fully understand what it was like you know what i mean? when you're out there you never experience it before. you just like you know, people call you for money, you like i do it, i'll get to it. now that i'm in here people are forgetting to do the same thing for me. and i am like damn! i'm not the kind of person. but now when i'm out there i

have people locked up on the to make sure i'm on it. >> there were guys up into the same thing i been through. it's easier to trust. you need people that are been the same thing. there are stereotypes and you never know what type of how people might be feeling if they know you been in this type of situation. i find it easier to deal with you know with people like that i know i've been through the same struggles i've been to. , been through and as time go on, of course, i will have to do with people that haven't been through this and the situations, so is just a matter of just accepting me for who i am or just i just can't change my past. you know. i can't change it so i have to live with it. so i got a you know get out to society will be a whole lot of people that i will have to deal

with. they will have to accept me for who i am. >> on 133, right after the page, stacy was alluding to, there's a scene where he is, he sees a woman that, kramer, i think who he dated in high school or had a crush on. and he sees them like now she lives in this house and now she's married and now she's got this this whole of their life. this completely different life than when he left. and it's interesting to think about when you are home, and when you leave home, and then when you come back home, how different things are. do y'all think about that? >> all the time! >> tell me more about that. >> the crazy thing you just said that i been locked up for 24 years.

i've been in d.c. since 96. and when i'm here i keep seeing these buses. some say to myself, man, what are all these tour buses doing on here? but all the time is the metro bus. [laughter] just a little thing like this. it wasn't there before and stuff look so different. in fact what you were saying was, -- life just goes on. but you don't realize when you're in jail, people grow. it's just like, one time i seen my mother. i haven't seen in 18 years. but i still got the picture where she is young and she come in with a walker and -- it just -- time just move so quick and you just don't even realize it in jail.so back, back when

she was saying about the stories, i believe our stories need to be heard. we need to share our stories to help somebody from that from making the same mistake you made or you can share story from he made a game that can help him. you know? but a lot of people glorify jail when there's nothing to glorify. >> embracing experience. article embracing my experience. you know because i came to prison as a child. not something i'm proud of. and you said something we share your story with those that don't know, i won't go around saying hey, came to present the age of 17 and i did 24 years in prison. now if you require, yes. you know, as rodney said you know, he just going to have to accept me for who i am. yes, i made a mistake. you know, but the question he trust me, did i learn from my

mistake? what have i done? what are my contributions to society? that is a question that you should ask. >> a lot of people in jail aren't even here for a mistake they probably made. >> go ahead. >> is going to say something because when it sound like when we come in, i was four years old and like things would be different when they return home. and things will be different when you return home after a couple of years. things are changing. did you just our families. and i was thinking about i wrote something pertaining to this book and pertaining to all of the people in the circle. and i want to know if it's time to read it right now. part of the booklet is that we write. so you bring your notes and thoughts and stuff so i bring what i wrote. and i want to share. >> is do that at the end. we'll go around and share. do y'all have anything? >>. [inaudbile]

>> about sharing your story and your experience like tom experience. and prison and war. it might have like a tremendous impact on somebody where they don't want, they don't want to relive memories. and they might not want to share. you know they get the courage you know, like you know, shared experience. >> is definitely depends. i think each person responds differently to traumatic experiences. each person responds differently to the things that they've seen and continuously as we talked about the things -- >> it's not normal. >> yeah, and so that is something that everybody needs to sort of you know obviously reflect on and figure out for themselves. and hopefully we will give y'all time to reflect on that

little bit. >> alright so writing time. you get to choose what you want to write about. both have to do with things we talked about today. the first is called my own war. and reading the things that you been able to make connections with experiences with soldiers and experiences with people incarcerated, as well as people growing up in the streets. what you described a lot is your own experience, that is one, my own war. the second is what i lost. we experience trauma we lose something. it might be loss of innocence, loss of a sense of safety, loss of shelter, loss of self-esteem, loss of a loved one, etc. think about a particular traumatic event you've experience without focusing upon the details of what happened, right instead about what you lost. what was like life when you had this thing and what was like without it? you have two to choose from. >> i want what i lost. >> grab a couple of these and

pass them out.that's when i lost. and this is my own war. just take one. you can write on this paper. >> give y'all about 10 minutes. >> anybody else need something to write on? they go. need a pen? >> like this kind?

>> start looking up when you're done. you can always go back. >> alright, i did my own war. war, once seemed so far away. but as of late if etiquette is here to stay. growing up, there was always peace. comfort of family and every

crevice increase. one day i woke up to gunshots and fire. water hoses and policeman killing young and black women's desire. i'm a soldier the lives of my ancestors and children alike. >> and mine is what i lost and people don't know was born and raised in new orleans, hurricane katrina was my senior year of high school so this is reflecting on that. it's hard to remember what the earth smelled like, the way pieces of broken glass folded themselves under the soil. it's hard to remember watching a superdome shrink into itself. before disappearing into our rearview mirror as we drove away. it's hard to remember how long we sat in the car. how when i lowered the window the entire highway smelled like gasoline and despair. it's hard to remember how long

it took to get out of bed. to change a channel from something other than images of my city being washed away. hard to remember how much i was looking forward to the future before the levees broke.it's hard to remember how much of me is still broken and is yet to be rebuilt. >> alright, who wants to share? >> life is always being aware from day one. a kid tried to bully me when i was maybe six or seven and my mother told me you better get out there and fight. i am not raising our chumps. mom was a soldier so she raised one. a daily routine countless fights, try to stab a guy or two. never shot anybody, never been shot but can't say it was because of lack of effort. rubbed a lot of people, been robbed a few times. it was nothing less than what

was to be expected. all this by 15 years of age and the only thing that kept me functioning was weed, liquor and pcp. these would function very loosely. came to prison at 16 and into the new war. one i been fighting for a very long time now. i long for the deck and put the burden of war down. [snapping fingers] >> so, the title perfect with my own work. so i say, the were we in, depend. the things we quit with friends, some sensor lights was sin peer mass incarceration across the nation carried by men and women with brown skin. carrying centuries and memories, wondering what they remember me? the day i get sentence, today and schedule to get more time, i carry crime, the things i

carry because others was worried. life in the pen can be scary but stay strong to worry. sessions in the library with lives library soldiers and crooks, shook and scared to look in the book because lives were took. then come prepared because lives were spared. -- things they carry in their head, walking right into prison because they made their bed. bodies after bodies after bodies, lifeless. amongst the walking dead. the were we in right now makes you want to write life down. because the things they carry his life right now. fighting a fight, trying to give and give back life. now.

high hopes what were they carry if they get shot down. the things that carry our shocking thoughts, locked away, the things they carry our faults, carrying life, bringing life to a halt.like the eagle, widespread like the wingspan. because this is by c-span. booktv, booked, see, we have a vision but the things they carry in a field. i'm not here to sell vision on television. i'm here to tell the children it is a field in prison. do anyone see the were we in? the pen? the were we in? in the pen? or the war in vietnam, the things they carry go way beyond. the things they carry on their back in their hands, or in their arms, some carry their lives in a book. other stories are carried on. speaking of courage, look at

things they create with family. in the field, look at the were we in. we in the pen, the things that carry -- carry by the pen. [snapping fingers] >> i love the internal rhyme throughout. great. >> let's see, i wrote what i lost. chasing something i knew wouldn't last. now i'm locked up for a cause, feeling like what i lost. my freedom, my family. running the streets without a clue. i wish i would've knew the time would be out. [snapping fingers] >> what i lost because over the years have lost a lot. once again, embrace my experience. what i lost is my loved ones because of my foolishness. what i lost is my juvenile years, what i lost, what a loss

is not being there to love and support my family. her loss and i have the chance to tell my parents all that i want to. as the man i've become to be. her loss is my youth. but i am much stronger. what i did not lose is my sanity. [snapping fingers] >> my own war. my war is within myself. deep within places i have yet to travel. there is so much junk in my heart hindering my survival. my war is within myself trying to understand all the confusion that never seems to go away. life i can imagine. but whose life is it? so many different components

directly and indirectly to clandestine schemes. is it my life? so many labels have been placed upon me i have lost count. in my casualty of war? or i am the war. [snapping fingers] >> about something but i am really a good writer. >> it's great, man! >> i just write -- i chose what i lost. i been locked up for so long i lost -- okay. we lost is the gift of freedom. the chance to be a father to my daughter, a son to my mother, a brother to my sister. a chance to walked on a sandy beach or take a legal drink. home-cooked meals and breathe. that i can taste in my sleep, waking up in the middle of the

night and realize all they have is -- [laughter] [snapping fingers] >> that's real! [laughter] >> i went off of what i lost. i have something i didn't really get to finish it yet. i said sometimes i feel like i lost track of time. feel like i was tied to the street my lifetime. i used to think dreams would be in a movie and having fun. i'm locked up because i couldn't leave home without a gun pronounced anytime thing about the life i never had. [snapping fingers] >> i did what i lost. i lost time with my kids, i lost many friends. i let my love ones down. -- i lost my mind and never

lost my freedom and i can't wait to get back again. [snapping fingers] >> i did what i lost too. i said what i lost, when i sit back and think of my family and friends and my thoughts and begin. i lost time, lost time with people i love the most. i lost connections. connections to the people i thought were always growth. i lost myself. [snapping fingers] >> that's awesome. >> alright so, we have your forms from last week. we will give those back right at the end. but i wanted us to end today with just one thing that one take away. what is one thing you can take away from the session today? like our weekly jewel in the past. what is that thing for you all? >> it can also be something that, i was a really good to talk about very small section of the book and i mean, i love

this book. i read this in high school and then again now. as a writer, i think i'm in there so many times are just underlining and putting stars by the way he like constructed language. a way that that was so beautiful and so powerful. and so you know in your reflection you talk about something that you are thinking based on the discussion or based on your writing. but also feel free to bring a part of the book that you may, that we may not have had the opportunity to talk about that resonated with you or you thought was interesting or surprising or what have you. >> what really, what i really admire for the soldiers is how much they carry, so much on them and still be able to move on through. you know the guns and you know, just the radios and they discussed how big everything you know the size and the weight. but just to carry all of the

equipment. request not just emotionally but you me physically. >> yes, i really admire that. i was reading the book in the early chapter of the book, they broke down everything you know what they had to take on. >> right. >> so i really admire that part.>> the book kind of remindme of like , someone like daily life like we are at war two. like how they see values and stuff like every day. and i just want to take this opportunity so people out there can see like this because we in here, we not bad people. we all make mistakes. i just want to appreciate your forgiving assist love right here. >> we are doing positive stuff. >> we all not bad. >> it's important for people to know. >> appreciate your giving us

this. >> i always enjoy being part of free minds. what i want to reflect on, we discussed about the blame, who take the blame for you know this and that. i mean, you know, look the history of the vietnam war. you know, it was a war that a lot of people you know, believe the country shouldn't have been a part of and there's a lot of people that had ill feelings towards the veterans when they came back. i mean i believe you know, that the society is to blame. everybody is to blame. i mean because you know democracy, one of the components of democracies check and balance. so people feel something is not right watching so many lives be lost for the people to stand up and say we shouldn't do this? we are not going to do this or

send my child to fight this war. i mean you know, why do we have this component in the society and this government, in this constitution and you know, it seem like it doesn't get used where it should. so like i said, i think people need to wake up and stand up because a lot of things are going on the society and people wait until something happens to them specifically before they feel like something needs to be done or something is going on. and is not right that we need to stand up. whether is to force the government or whoever, people in the community. >> definitely. >> anyone else? >> i just take away from this experience right now. you know this experience right here for the rest of my life. sharing the experiences with these brothers in this room. and just like, they carry their lives in this book about the

soldiers in war. you know so i just feel like every time i write, the lives and experiences that -- just you know, that's recreate and that's what i take from this whole thing. is the experience and for the rest of my life. >> some thing that i carry that's relative to the book, is when in the book where it was like he said the darkness, he couldn't take the darkness no more. not like i would do what he did, like saying shoot myself to get out but at some point in time i think all of us gotta figure out how to get to the darkness. it's black and you'd like don't know which way to go. when you have no light to show the direction, nothing. i mean, i took to that lot. it was like, how can i get out of the darkness? >> thank you for sharing. >> what i notice from reading

the book is how, how like observant the soldiers were like, especially the author. tim o'brien. for writing the book, how observant, how he wrote down things that like, that's real hard for other people to understand. i think you did a real good job of breaking down certain concepts and the way he did it, writing this book can help other people understand even the step that we -- stuff that we go through on a certain level. just being in this abnormal situation.and so i think that with that said, a lot of clarity comes from being in this situation. and i think that's one of the

good things are one of the pros near them saying that come with being in the situation. like good can come from it. and in at least for me, a lot of clarity came from being able to sit. like i don't spend my fair share of time in the hole. and like, it is torturous. before you get used to it. but afterward, you kind of, find a certain piece, a certain clarity of mind and you're able to express yourself much better and you're able to articulate yourself that much better. you're able to know yourself that much better. so that's what i took from it. just the clarity that comes from traumatic situations or from abnormal situations. that can come from it. >> thanks for sharing. >> always, every session --

times hard but you know, every time is like a relief. you know. >> just what everybody got that carrying something. no matter if they locked up or on the street. and i just gotta be more considerate of that. and not so focused on my problems and my needs. because everybody dealing with something the matter what. >> yeah. >> don't judge a book by its cover. [laughter] >> what do y'all get, how do y'all feel like after y'all come and talk to some of us and like here are stories and see

how we interact, what is your feedback for us? >> i can speak for me but i'm sure it's relevant to stacy too. some students at harvard like you all know, i study incarceration. in a study inequality, study racism and how all of this things connect and how her history of racism in the history of punishment in this country has led to the current crisis of mass incarceration. in graduate school in getting your doctorate is amazing. i'm very grateful, it's also thin like you're head is in books all the time. it was really meaningful and helpful is that every time you come in here it's a reminder of how real this is. a reminder that this is just not something in books, is not just something that is a documentary, is not just something that, is an essential abstraction, in a way they can

sometimes become for people because we think about 2.3 million people in prison, he then went tumbling people passing through jail every year.another big huge numbers and for some people i think the numbers can remain so large that they forget the actual people are impacted by it. and so for me every time i commend and every time we have a conversation with y'all, it's a reminder of how real this is, how urgent it is. how human it is. like that you are all people who may have made a mistake in your life. but it is not the sole thing that should define you. and you are not the sort of characters people try to create about people who are in jail or in prison. and some very grateful for these weekly and biweekly reminders about what the work is really about. and as more than just writing a paper, more than just finishing a degree.despite how can you gain a toolkit with which to advocate on behalf of men and women who are inside and who shouldn't be here. >> from day one when i first

met you i thank you, i think none of us missed the session. it elevates my mind. i enjoy. i remember when i was a child in front of the classroom and i would enjoy a case are vocabulary sharp, reading keeps me sharp. they say we don't use 90 percent of our brains. so i try to use it when i read. >> i definitely appreciate free minds. before i got in this book club i would never have read a book like this. i learned how to read in prison. but free minds open my mind to different things and different authors i wouldn't even have thought about picking up. and i definitely appreciate that. >> and i would say, i am not an avid reader. i did graduate school and now a faculty member in i'm assigning

my students to read about the issues about the justice system. i don't call myself an avid reader but when i pick up this book to come here and be able to connect with you guys, it takes me a place i don't get to go on a daily basis. i'm so much on a daily grind being a dad and a husband and a professor and researcher, all those things i don't get to do that creative work we do here and be able to connect my story and the book and you all together to realize there's a lot of commonality and things that connect you if you don't make it if you're just on the daily grind. the other thing for me, every time i come into a prison or a jail, and i've been doing this since undergrad now, similar things. the feeling of walking out is a surreal feeling to me. because i know you guys don't have that same luxury to be able to come here for an hour or an hour and and a half, two hours and be able to walk up here in this room so we have windows in the room.

but a lot of times we are in a room with no windows. and being able to walk out as a bit of a joyous feeling. not to be selfish but the sense of, so many people in this country don't get the same luxury to be able to walk out after a few minutes in there. and it awakens a new appreciation of life and in reason for me for the work i do. because of both of those things also want to thank you guys for spending this time with us. ... >> it's inspirational to someone

like me who every day i'm trying to do stuff to practice what i want to be when i get home you know what i'm saying so it won't fall back into old behavior, you know what i mean. i appreciate the work you all do and i'm inspired. c the feeling is mutual. >> i want to pan over new feel free. >> that's all we have got. appreciate it you all. i sure to put your name on the form.

[inaudible conversations] now on booktv lujan to show you portion of her recent program. the manhattan institute's oren cass takes a critical look at u.s. labor and economic policies and suggests ways to improve them. spent the model of economic development for several generations is the content to the economic pie is that we will grow the economy and if we need do we will redistribute so everyone can have more than they did before. redistribution is about four times what it was so the map with all the purple spot -- blotches is exactly what we are promis