>> you can watch this and any of our programs in their entirety at booktv.org. type the author's name in the search bar at the top of the page. >> everybody hear me? great. well, welcome to the new york society library. i'm carol malone, the chair of the board, and we have the great pleasure, i have the great pleasure of introducing two distinguished speakers this evening. before we start, let me just say it will get warmer in here, and then if you could silence your cell phones and devices, that would be great. you may have noticed books are for sale outside this room in the exhibition gallery. well, it's our honor to have with us two of our -- [inaudible]

dorothy butler gilliam and our very own pamela newkirk. dorothy butler gilliam was one of the first black women to receive a master's degree in journalism from columbia university and became the first black woman reporter for "the washington post" in 1961. working there until her retirement in 2003. for 19 years, beginning in 1970, she wrote a popular columning for the post discussing education, politics and race. her work as a civil rights activist and journalist has been featured in three documentaries. she served as the j.b. at the george washington school of media and public affairs and has worked widely towards inclusion of young journalists, the young journalist development program and prime movers media, the country's first journalism

mentorship program for underserved students in the washington and philadelphia school. she was president of the national association of black journalists from 1993-95, and in 2010 the washington press club awarded ms. gilliam its lifetime achievement award with. pamela newkirk, an award winning journalist who spent ten years working as a reporter and writer before joining the journalism factory -- faculty here at the university. "the new york times", "the washington post" and the nation. her first book was in the veil: black journalists, white media, and the national press club award for media criticism, won the national press club award for media criticism. her 2015 book on sale outside --

[inaudible] naacp image award and the wright legacy award in nonfiction. the library's grateful to ms. newkirk for serving on our book committee. please join me in welcoming ms. gilliam and ms. newkirk. [applause] >> thank you, and thank you all for being here. this is a great honor for me to sit down with this legendary journalist who i've known my entire career, known of, but i've never had the opportunity to have a conversation with you with. i told her, i would see her at conferences, but she was dorothy gilliam and i was not -- [laughter] and so i looked on with awe and just great respect. >> well, it's -- >> and admiration. >> it's a great pleasure to be here in conversation with you. >> yes. >> i've enjoyed your work very much. >> thank you. and thank you for writing this book. this book not only chronicles

your remarkable career, but some of the, you know, really momentous events in u.s. history. you were there for so much of that time. and what i was particularly struck by, my first book looked at the entry of african-americans into mainstream journalism, but most of them came after the urban unrest that began, like, in 1965,1967, the riots that resulted in the commission on civil disorders and then after that many newsrooms opened the doors for the first time to african-american journalists. but there you were, 23 at "the washington post" in 1961. tell us about what it was the like being in segregated washington, d.c. where you were the only african-american reporter. >> well, i was the only

female -- >> female african-american reporter. you were there with simian booker, right in. >> no, simian booker had been there about a -- ten years before. >> it was too hard. >> it was too hard. on the one hand, i grew up in the segregated south, so i had known the humiliation of black and white water fountains and black and white bathrooms and had a lot to cope with. but i had, i just did not picture that the nation's capital -- >> right. >> -- would have been such a racially segregated place. and because it was, it made my job more difficult. for example, daily newspapers are -- time is of the essence. so get your assignment in the morning, unless you were doing a special feature, and you go out and you write the story and you

come back and you file it on deadline for the next day. and getting taxi cabs was one of the hardest things. >> a little thing like that? >> yeah. i would stand the out in front of the post it felt like for hours, but it wasn't. of it was a long time though, trying to get a taxi cab. and they would, you know, sometimes they'd kind of slow down, and then they would see my brown face and hit the accelerator. and that was really a big issue. i managed to get my stories in on deadline most of the time in part because i had learned shorthand at a catholic women's college, and that was the time when women were expected to be secretaries. >> right. >> so that shorthand that i learned stood me in good stead as i was, you know, hailing cabs or even writing in the backseat trying to make deadline. i think the other difficulty was the way i was treated by a lot

of the people who worked there. >> yes, yes. something that you wrote, it just, i mean, it really got to me. you said i was sometimes experiencing panic attacks when i was walking to work fearing what was happening at the office, what i would encounter there, who would not speak to me. i would humiliated by not being acknowledged by my coworkers. i felt rejected, helpless. >> well, it was, it was particularly painful because these could be coworkers and colleagues that might have had a conversation with you in the newsroom. but when they saw you on the street, there was this non-acknowledgment. it was the turn thing your head, it was -- turning your head, it was just doing so many things that were, you know, negative, humiliating things that were against my person, you know? my race and my gender.

>> now, how different was it coming from the segregated south? you were raised in the south. >> yes. >> tell uses a little bit about that and how different was it coming to -- i mean, washington, d.c. is still the south, to me. leaving new york and going to d.c., i still feel it's kind of a southern city. but what was different about d.c. and -- >> yeah. well, there were differences because in louisville, kentucky, and in memphis, tennessee, you know, things were -- things like bathrooms were separated, you know? a white water found dane looked better than -- fountain looked better than a black one. floors sometimes not monday, all things that were designed to make you feel less than. i think what was different about washington is i came with different expectations. >> right. >> i thought this is the nation's capital. >> right. >> and then to have, you know,

so many things that were just reminiscent of the south was really, that was really painful. but i persevered. >> obviously. you with persevered for quite a long time. why did you stay? because many, as you note, many african-americans like simian booker, he couldn't take it. i think when he was there, even the restrooms were segregated at "the washington post." listening to these kind of heartbreaking episodes that you experienced day in and day out, what made you stay? why did you stay? because it sounded like you battled depression for part of it. >> well, one of the reasons i stayed especially in those early years before, as you have said, the kerner commission kind of blamed the media in part for the riots -- >> right. >> because it said, you know, in effect, you are not giving the public the knowledge of the

black community. you're only seeing america through white eyes. >> so the kerner report is the report that was commissioned by president johnson after the urban unrest, and one of the questions with was what role did the media play in the unrest. >> exactly. >> and it basically said the media was reporting on america through a white man's world and that it was not really looking at the problems in inner city communities and why, why there was unrest, right? the underlying reasons for the unrest were not being articulated by the media. >> so it was very important to me coming before that report -- >> right. >> -- in the early '60s to make way for another black woman. and i knew that if i came in every day and told the editors what happened to me -- and i didn't because i couldn't, i knew that if i didn't succeed, it was going to be harder for

the next black woman. >> so there you were, 1960s, john f. kennedy. you were, i mean, you worked around -- you were around so many legends of that period. what was it like being in washington, d.c. just as a journalist? >> as a journalist it was, there was a level of excitement. i remember the first time i was sent to the white house to cover a very routine story that a young reporter would be sent to cover. i almost fainted when i saw john f. kennedy. [laughter] it was just, you know, i thought i had been kind of prepared for that -- [laughter] at columbia. >> were you swooning? >> i did not swoon. [laughter] >> just almost fainted. >> yeah. but the reason i think i had been somewhat prepared was because at columbia they would have top leaders coming in, and we would interview them. >> right. >> you know, little by little by

little i began to say, oh, yeah, that's -- i knew these people. not personally, but in a way that -- >> right. you were exposed to important leaders, world leaders. >> exactly. but kennedy was different. and that was, that was one of the excitements of washington, that he was coming in talking about a new frontier. and he was also talking about race as a moral argument. >> right. he was the first one to the use the term affirmative action. >> and his sense was that the nation had to embrace the great evil that had existed with 250 years of slavery, with, you know, 100 years of segregation and jim crow. he didn't state it in that way, but he was aware of it, and he positioned himself, you know, to

really make a difference. >> right. >> and unfortunately, he was assassinated. but john -- president lyndon johnson took over after that and actually the kind of brought to fruition some of the bills that president kennedy had introduced. >> now, before working, before even going to columbia university, you had worked for the black press, right? >> i had. i worked for almost four years in the black press. >> right. so what was the difference now? you said you wanted to go to the, what we call the white press, right? the mainstream, because you wanted, you thought that in the mainstream you could help change the perceptions of african-americans to white americans, right? you thought you could make a difference in how african-americans were perceived. do you -- what was the difference in how you approached your work as a journalist? >> well, the black press really helped me understand the role of

journalism in a very deep way. and that was because of the way appropriators, black appropriators -- reporters, black reporters for the black press actually covered the south. they were willing to risk their lives to go behind the cotton curtain. and they often did risk their lives. for example, they had tied their old portable typewriters in old clothes and make it look as if they were, you know, just ambling along with these old clothes on, you know, carrying a package of old clothes. some of them pretended to be preachers. they'd have a bible. and they were so intent on telling the larger nation about the lynchings and the brutality that were taking places in the south. and so that was such a very real experience, and it gave me a lot of kind of understanding of the

country. and i think that even when i got to the post, it helped me to know that, you know, journalism is not for the faint of heart. >> not at all. >> yeah. >> you're on the front lines, right? >> you're on the front lines. >> anything can happen. >> yeah. so it really helped me to, helped to prepare me. and part of the reason it helped to prepare me is because of two events. i was able to cover a little bit of central high school's integration in little rock, and i later was sent by the post to cover as part of a larger team, to cover the integration of the university of mississippi. and the experience in little rock helped me to understand more the role of black reporters. when these reporters would talk about what they had to go through in order to get the story out, that helped me when i went to mississippi.

it was a very dangerous time the, it was the integration of mississippi and one brave man named james meredith, you know, had the audacity to say i'm going to integrate this bastion of white supremacy. >> right. >> and so to go into mississippi, i was really helped by the experience of the black press. >> so you talk about the danger of the job, and something that a lot of people don't appreciate as an african-american journalist working in the mainstream newsroom, you go out there and you're, you know, you're engaged in battle. and then often times you go in the newsroom, and you have to fight to get some of these stories in. as a columnist, i think you may have had a little more leeway than the average reporter, but have you ever -- did you have any uphill experiences trying to cover issues that you felt were really important that maybe your

editors didn't? >> i did. and i think, unfortunately, a lot of black reporters are still having those challenges today. >> oh, yeah. >> and that's because very often the stories that are pitched, you know, to an editor, a white editor hearing a story idea from a black reporter male or female was often rejected. >> right. >> it was often said nobody cares about that. is so to me, it was very, it was a relief when i started writing a column because i didn't have to clear my ideas -- >> right, in the same way. >> -- with an editor. yeah. and one of the things is i worked in the style section as an associate you would to have, an assistant editor, rather. i reached out and brought in more black reporters, and we were able to really bring a lot of the culture of black americans into the larger mainstream media. >> not an easy feat.

>> not an easy feat and also not an easy feat even today for black reporters who are still trying to get stories into the newspapers that are so crucial to our understanding of each other as americans. >> now, that brings me to janet cook. i was a young reporter in albany, new york, my first newspaper job, only black reporter in the newsroom when janet cook, young african-american journalist at the post, wrote a story that won a pulitzer prize, and then it was exposed as being totally fabricated, jimmy's world. i remember a "wall street journal" editorial saying all editors should check the resumés of black reporters and make sure, you know, they are who they say they are. what i wanted to know there you, what do you think that episode said about race in american journalism? because she certainly wasn't the

only person who had ever fabricated a story and and was exposed. >> yeah. i think at that point i was not really fully conversant with how, you know, how many fabricated stories might have been published. >> right. >> i think what my greatest impression about janet cook was my fear that because of her, you know, demise and because of her horrible flaws, it once again was going to reflect upon all of us. >> and it did. >> yeah. it was going to be harder to bring other black journalists in, and it was going to raise exactly the specter that you were just citing, that every black journalist has to be double checked and has to be triple checked -- >> because of one person. >> because of one person. >> -- who did something who happened to be black. >> yeah. and that's not something that happens when one white person has a problem. >> but what i thought was

interesting, janet cook, she fabricated the perfect mainstream journalism story. in other words, she was writing for the district weekly, but she concocted the story that she knew could make a1, the story of a young black boy who lives in the urban area whose parents shoot him up with heroin before a black journalists and, like, it was a sensational story. i mean, of course that's going to be an a1 story. >> yeah, no, she knew what she was doing. >> yeah. >> and it was, it was a really sad day. and it hurt the post too. but, you know, we -- the post bounced back. finish but it was very sad, and i think -- i remember the lead i wrote on that story, which is not something that, i don't remember many leads. but i wanted to say that janet cook was a reporter who happened to be black. >> right. >> i was trying to, you know,

take away that stigma that was going to impact everybody, as it did. >> yeah. and it continues to. i mean, that janet cook story reverberates in ways that other plagiarists don't. i mean, there have been so many plagiarists, white plainists, and their names are not as rememberedded as janet cook. and the pulitzer kind of helped, right? that cented her into in-- cemented her into infamy. >> well, i believe in the redemption, and i would like to see her move forward somewhere else. >> just not in journalism. >> that's the point, not in journalism. >> that's a deal. now, diversity has been such a big part of your work as a journalist. you've advocated for diverse newsrooms. in 1978 the american society of newspaper editors pledged to have newsrooms that reflected the proportion of minorities in the population by the year 2000.

it came to the year 2000, they said, oh, we'll roll it to 20% by 2025. why has this been so protracted, do you think? >> it's been protracted in because most white editors have not wanted to really share the power, you know? let black people be a part of that decision making process which is still so crucial to americans, you know, truly understanding each other. but what could make that change, is what i often ask myself, you know? when can we begin to kind of face some of the realities of america so that we can move forward as opposed to taking one step forward and two steps backward. >> right. are you surprised by where we are now? >> i have to admit that i am a little surprised by the top leadership of the nation.

>> people of color are close to 40% of the national population and newsrooms about 16-17%, that includes asians, african-americans, native americans, you know, all people of color. so that's really, i mean, the underrepresentation -- >> the underrepresentation is dramatic. >> yeah. >> and one of the things that has made it even more difficult is the fact that newspapers and media in the general are undergoing so many changes with the advent of social media. with the recession in 2008 that really made a big difference in terms of the future -- >> a lot of layoffs. >> a lot of layoffs, a lot of buyouts. so there are many reasons right now. but that does not change the reality that we really must continue to diversify the media

and to make that a priority. unfortunately, many media companies are saying, well, we have diversity fatigue. but, you know, that's just unacceptable. >> yeah, it seemed that in the '80s there was a lot more energy around diversity than there is now. like, now i don't see as much of a big push in the industry. i remember in the '80s you had all kind of job fairs, and there was a lot of energy around diversity. what what, like -- what's it going to take? >> yeah, that's a good question, what will it take? >> and i guess the post's black now too. that's a joke. [laughter] >> exactly. well, i think one of the things that has to change is the attitude of editors. they have got to realize that the importance if of their role, the importance of making sure that the, that they are not just

trying to see america through white eyes, they've got to make -- understand the important agenda differences and racial differences. and there are just so many kind of fault lines in a sense -- >> right. >> -- that run through america that we have to examine as we present the news, as we try to -- and that calls for everybody being a part of that. >> right. and there are still is few top editors who are of color, right? >> absolutely. >> i mean, the overwhelming majority are still white men, not even women. >> yeah, that is very true. i think some of the exceptions are the executive editor of "the new york times" -- >> of course, yeah. >> but, you know with, he's very much an exception. >> so you were instrumental in starting so many initiatives to improve journalism; ije, the young journalist development

program. tell us about those and what they're doing. >> well, the most dramatic early change was the fact that the institute for journalism education was founded. the main person behind that was a man named robert c. maynard -- >> who was a giant. >> who was, indeed, a giant. >> in the industry, yeah. he was one of the first black publishers of a mainstream newspaper. >> exactly. but when he helped to start what is now the maynard institute, he was still at "the washington post." and so he gathered groups of us together and said, you know, let's join together to make a difference. because what happened at that point when we said we need more black reporters, the editors would say to us we can't find any qualified. and we knew that wasn't true. so our answer was we're going to start training some.

and we did. we trained -- over the years since we started in 1977 we have trained more than a thousand journalists as reporters, first it was a summer program for just journalists. then we added training for editing and for editors. and lastly we started training for managers, again, just trying to fill all these needs. and that was, you know, a very exciting time, and it was a very -- i think in many ways it was a hopeful time. but as you said, very often the pendulum in america swings from conservative to, you know, a little more -- a little less liberalism but some liberalism. >> let's talk a little bit about today's times. the state of journalism and the state of america. you pick which one you want to

address first. [laughter] >> well, i think there's a joining of those two things when we look at the way the media is being criticized today as fake news, being criticized when, you know, black women journalists in particular who cover the white house are being called stupid, you know? there's so many dangers in what is happening now. for example, we know that -- how many times can i say this, how many different ways can i say this? we know that one has to have, to have anything approaching a democracy, one has to have a lot of light. you've got to have people who

are talking about issues. you have to be discussing subjects. and all subjects. and that is what has not been happening. that is, there has been a whole kind of -- so much polarization is occurring. >> does the media have a role in that? has the media contributed to that polarization? >> oh, i think so. in part, the lack of diversity in the media, the lack of diversity, racial diversity among managers. all of that is very much a part of the overall picture. that does not mean, though, that, you know, there is a problem with, a huge problem with fake news in the media with, you see. that's the distortion. and that's the kind of thing that is very detrimental to the democracy. ask one of the reasons -- and one of the reasons i find it very disturbing is it doesn't

just challenge the media, the democracy internally, it also reverberates externally. and and, you know, in matter what we can say -- no matter what we can say about the need for the american democracy to be real to all of its citizens, which is what those of us who fight for diversity and inclusion continue to say, we know that america still is considered, you know, the bastion of democracy in the world. and if that is attacked by the people at the highest level, that is a, that's very destabilizing. and so that's part of the concern at the moment. >> yeah. and i think given this climate, diversity takes a backseat because right now journalism is under attack, right? the first amendment. like all of it is under attack. >> exactly. >> and so diversity just seems like kind of, you know -- >> it's easier --

>> a back burner issue. >> right. it's easier for them to say we don't have time to deal with that. but i am pleased the know that -- to know that increasingly all over the country we're having more diversity and inclusion committees. i know we think another committee -- >> that's what i thought when you said that. >> yeah, yeah. but -- >> another task force the, another committee, another diversity czar and no more diversity. >> but i think if you don't do that, there'll never -- there'll be just backward movement. it won't even be, you know, a stabilization of where we are. >> we've had backward movement. the number of african-american journalists in the mainstream has actually declined. >> it has, indeed. >> the past six, seven years. >> yeah. and part of that, of course, is that the media itself has been fighting. the internet, which changed so

much, a lot of newspapers started laying off people -- >> but you know -- >> buyouts -- >> cbs when they announced the ten reporters who would cover the 20 election, not one of this them were african-american. >> yeah. and one of the sad things about that was like, okay, we have latinos. if you check the diversity box with one group, you don't have to check it with anybody else. >> right. >> and that's absolutely wrong. >> especially when you look at who's disproportionately affected by, you know, voter suppression, income inequality, like, you go down the list of -- criminal justice reform, right? >> yeah. yeah, there's so many obvious places where racism still exists, and i think i would agree that mass incarceration is

a real problem that rarely gets written about or talked about exempt with, you know, in books -- except in books and from historians. >> overpolicing, i mean, we have so many issues, right, that are still -- >> still to be brought to light, written about and changed. >> which is why you need diversity. >> absolutely. >> yeah. >> absolutely. >> so what's next for you? what do you, what do you do for an encore? this book is amazing. how do you, what do you do after this? >> well, i have had some questions about maybe doing a book of some of my columns. we'll see if that is on the horizon. >> okay. let's see if there are questions from the awe -- from the audience. >> [inaudible] >> there were a few hands.

>> now that you're a free agent, do you feel free to talk about candidates, like the upcoming presidential election? [laughter] do you feel now you can recommend that -- [inaudible] >> so now that she's a free agent and not representing a newspaper, does she feel freer to talk about politics and specific candidates. >> you know, i don't feel, you know, unfree. [laughter] my issue is that i have been so busy trying to finish the book, and now that it's out to promote the book, that i really haven't done all the research that i would like to do. i think, before i speak. i think's one thing about journalists, you know? i think we try to really do the research and do the digging so that we come from some position of credibility. so at this point, i'm not

prepared to speak about that. >> you were at the post with so many legends like ben bradlee and sally quinn in the style department. i was wondering if you could talk a little bit about when you felt at the post, or maybe never, that there was a lack of bias in just coverage and assignments and the way that the teams were put together or -- [inaudible] stories that were assigned or not. you know, you commented on -- [inaudible] 961, what was it like there -- >> when did it change, you're asking? yeah. >> yeah. i think it started changing in the '70s. in part because after african-americans and the freedom movement started, you

know, the riots and the kerner commission report, after that the women's movement started. gloria steinem's first article was after black power, woman power. and that really also changed the newsroom. because women started suing, the women at "the new york times" sued, the women at "the washington post" sued -- >> oh, yeah. >> there were, the black -- >> new york times daily news, so many lawsuits, yeah. >> yeah. so there were, the change was that people took action. and when they saw that -- they just recognized the reality that there weren't women editors, there weren't black editors, there weren't latino editors. so i think a lot of the change was pushed by those people who decided they were going to do something about it.

and that definitely changed the atmosphere inside. i remember one young african-american reporter, he was working for the new york post -- >> [inaudible] no, that was not -- >> joel dreyfuss. >> yeah. >> i thought he'd be a great reporter for style. so we brought him down, and when bradlee interviewed him, he said, well, you know, what do you think about working for a racist newspaper? and dreyfuss said, well, if i was worried about, you know, working for a racist newspaper, i wouldn't be in the journalism business. [laughter] so, and bradlee, you know, had a way that he could really pull things out. i remember that no matter what he thought about what i wrote, and a lot of the editors really did not like it, but there was only one time that i remember

him, bradlee, ever personally saying to me something about a column. and that was when the ku klux klan marched -- >> in washington. >> -- in washington. and it was just such a, you know, demonstration of horror for people in washington. and at that point, i believe the population was, the black population was majority. so there was a lot of protests. and people were angry. and i wrote a column in which i, i supported the protesters. and the thing was that the protesters did destroy some private property. >> oh, that. [laughter] >> and, you know, that's something that you just don't do on a white newspaper. so he had -- and he got lots of letters, and people were demanding that i get fired and all that. and so he -- bradlee just said,

you know, if i had been here, because it happened on a sunday, he said if i had been here, i would have asked you to rethink that. so he was that kind of editor. but you know how newspapers are. we have some, some people with different roles. there were some people -- >> you had an interesting recollection about donald graham. you knew him shortly before, i mean, the publisher who committed suicide, right? >> no, not donald -- >> which graham was it? >> it was phillip. >> so, no, you talked about donald graham walking in the newsroom, right, and kind of giving you a pep talk and encouraging -- >> yeah, no, that was his father, phillip graham. >> phillip graham. >> yeah. >> so what was that like? she says you knew legends: there were so many. >> yeah. there were many, many legends. at that point katherine graham had not emerged, obviously, as a

publisher. that happened once her husband committed suicide. but, and i talk some about this, but in those, those early days he was the one who had helped to hire simian booker who was the first african-american. and he knew what he was facing. and so phillip graham told simian booker, you know, if anybody makes you mad, don't sock 'em in the eye, come up into my office of and cool off. [laughter] but we never gave me that kind of specific advice, but he would just sometimes -- because he would come through the office. sometimes you wouldn't see him for a long time. but then sometimes he'd come through, and he would just every now and then, he would just perch on the side of the desk and ask me how i was doing. as i said, because we didn't discuss race and we didn't complain about how i was being treated or any of that, i would

say fine, and he would chat for a few minutes. it was a bit of a morale lifter, you know? but the people ask about mrs. graham. and, again, i was certainly not in her inner circle. [laughter] at all. but i remember once i was about, waiting to get on the elevator, and she was bringing some important people through, and she said something to the effect of, you know, would it -- i'm trying to think of how she put it, how she said it. but would it be cool or would it be, what would rich white women say? [laughter] you know, to stop and look at the newsroom. so we were, we didn't think of ourselves as being whatever that word is that i'm not

remembering. but, you know, she was, she was very, you know, elegant in her way. as an editor and a columnist i would often -- not often, but certainly on a regular basis go to the luncheons and things that she would have. so but, you know, it was just a fascinating place to work. and, but a tough place. and i was grateful looking back for those early experiences. what happened was i was at the post from 1961 until about 1965. after i got married and started having children, it was before the women's movement. and so i finally said can i possibly work, you know, seven a.m. to nine p.m. four days a week and just have one day off to take care of my children or

to spend time with my children. and this assistant you would to have said, no, no, you -- editor said, no, you can't to that. you know, we don't do that here. but i finally, i just begged. i didn't know that i would -- i mean, i fought harder for them than i would fight for myself. and i said, you know, please let me have this special day off. he finally said, okay. i think it lasted about a month, and he said you are lowering the morale in the newsroom. he said we have plenty of men here who want to write the great american novel. and if we give you a four-day-a-week, then -- schedule, then we'll have to -- >> yeah. jill abramson got a big backlash at "the new york times" when she was managing editor for saying, like, women, you need to suck it up. this is your job, and the family thing is your personal business. [laughter]

but it is the reality of a newsroom, isn't it? >> it's the reality of a newsroom, but it is also the reality of much more than a newsroom. >> oh, sure. >> and that's why the women's movement was so important to really come in and begin to bring those issues -- >> to address it, yeah. >> -- to the forefront and then to, you know, help bring about change. >> well, we've talked so much about the problems, the challenges. what were some of the high points of your career? >> i think the column-writing years, those were high point years -- >> but any specific stories that you covered or people you wrote about? i mean, i saw you with nelson mandela, and i saw you hanging with a lot of heavyweights. >> yeah. that was part of the joy of the job. you know, meeting nelson mandela, you know, being -- sitting across the dining room table at the post when he was there. but there were also high points

when, you know, challenging people like during the time when south africa was so totally the segregated, and there was so much absolute determination not to change that. ask we had a very highly place official from south africa there at a pretty small luncheon, and he talked, and i thought he was getting thrown all these softball questions. and i just finally said, you know, when will you have one man, one vote? and he was, he was gasping for air. he's, like, who is this person? [laughter] you know? this is supposed to be a, you know, high-level conversation where we're going to talk about, you know, more subterfuge. but, you know, to be able to write that kind of story and to write that kind of column, those

were important things. and it was interesting that the south african embassy called and said she never interviewed him, where'd you get this? are you plagiarizing? and it was very amusing to tell him that i was attending, i attended the luncheon, you know, where this highly placed official had said these words, and i had, you know, many people the prove it as well. >> what do you miss most about being in the newsroom? >> well, i think right now i would not like to be in the newsroom. [laughter] it's really -- yeah. it's a job where you really have to work 24/7. so under even the happiest of times and the most stressful of times, it's challenging. but i think to the really be under the stress that

journalists are right now -- >> any advice for young journal withists today? journalists today? >> i certainly encourage those who really want to be journalists to come onboard because i think we still need that. my advice is to, first of all, prepare well, or -- work hard or and, you know, understand that it's going to be a challenge. but it can make a difference. it can make a difference in the society, it can make a difference in the way people think. i mean, you can't, you can't, you know, penetrate the consciousness of people who don't want to understand, and there are a lot of people who don't want to the really understand what's happening in america. >> apparently. >> but, you know, there is the opportunity to always be a part of making change, a part of taking action, a part of

spurring action and a part of having some different perspectives. and so i think when people are so concerned right now about the current polarization, that each of us has to do some self-critiquing. black people have to do some, white people have have to do some, to say, you know, how have i benefited for white people, how have i benefitedded from this white privilege that has defined america for 400 years. how have i benefited from it and and kind of own that. just as black people have to also talk about, you know, what they have experienced but also see it in the context of the larger society. >> well, thank you so much for your legendary career. you blazed the path for people like me, and i am so grateful. >> thank you. >> thank you. [applause]

[inaudible conversations] >> here are some of the current best selling nonfiction the books according to the los angeles times. in love your enmies -- enemies, arthur brooks offers strategies on how to bridge the political divide in america. then tara westover recalls growing up in the idaho mountains and her introduction to formal education at age 17 in "educated." followed by former first lady michelle obama's memoir, becoming, which was the best selling book of 2018. after that, new yorker staff writer susan orlean recounts the

los angeles public library fire of 1986 in "the library book." and wrapping up our look at some of the best selling nonfiction books according to the los angeles times is "salt in my soul," a memoir by the late mallory smith about living with cystic fibrosis and her battle with a deadly superbug. most of these authors have appeared on booktv, and you can watch them online at booktv.org. [inaudible conversations] [applause] >> good evening and welcome. my name system alice greenwald, and i'm president and ceo of the 9/11 memorial and museum, and as always, it's a pleasure to