quid pro quo. if you have this project are earmarks then you will get more supportive votes. >> saturday night, president trump is holding a campaign rally in green bay, wisconsin. skipping the annual white house correspondents dinner. today, he instructed his administration to boycott the dinner. what coverage of the presidents rally saturday at 8:00 eastern on c-span. following the rally, watch coverage at 9:30 p.m. eastern of the white house correspondents dinner with featured speaker, author and historian ron the - - >> starting no, it's booktv on

c-span2. [inaudible conversations] . >> good afternoon. welcome to aei. i'm director of domestic policy studies and it's my pleasure to welcome you to this event featuring a discussion of the claims and i thank you will find the remarks of the panel are vemely. i look forward to the discussion. tim will offer a few words then will be followed by a panel discussion with charles

who was known to everybody here. and then also known to all of your as a "washington post" columnist. tim is a visiting fellow here at aei and also the commentary editor were he is bound not columnist for a while. 's previous book on cronyism what many of you know, him for is a big ripoff of obama economics. but with america as the new enterprise is a deepal dive into the heartland. i'm holding this book up because you need to buy it. it's easier for me to say it then for him but pick up a copy on your way out.

tim will give a discussion and we will allow time for with you with a question and answer her. and that questions are in the form of a question. so tim please come and give us your thoughts. . >> thank you everybody for coming.. so what i did was try to find out new things and tell a story with myy reporting and data. you know, this from 2015 and 2016 there is a surge of interest looking at working-class places where the

american dream seems dead. in writing this book i started in the opposite and and near my house chevy chase maryland but there is a town of chevy chase even section five but then there is the elite chevy chase and the village population of 2000 the wealthiest municipalityth in the wealthiest region in the wealthiest region in the wealthiest country in the world it has 80 percent of the populationpo has college degree including the majority of men and women, half the population have advanced degrees in chevy chase. it's not just wealth or the material ways but also

positive outcomes 95 percent have p two parents i visited and they have events , father/daughter dance, a kids movie night teenagers watch kids so parents can go out to have an actual dinner this is an immense value. like on valentine's day we have six kids something that allows you to get away from your kids is one of the best way to foster your love for your kids in my opinion. [laughter] also to the elderly the sports teams for their kids the kids get married they go off to college they avoid unwed pregnancy. so these villages all around the country have good outcomes

because it takes a village to raise a child and this is exactly that sort of village. if you look at top fundraisers one dozen at least live in chevy chase of at least six figures they practice the values that conservatives preach. pay attention to liberals to see what they try to do to make more the us population to be like chevy chase the elites have such good outcomes may be we could make more like us if we throw more money at publicc schools may be they would have the same outcome as a school in virginia. or maybe if we make college free because that is associated with so many good

outcomes but i would argue you can make everybody in america the elite that is not a scalable model. in chapter one i visit another village it is 50 percent of the population claims dutch ancestry. when i was there housing one.5 million but the other is 50000. you could buy ten homes in the price of one in chevy chase. but the number of family households is way above average when i was at the diner in walks a big crowd leaving the 9:00 a.m. service at the bethel orc that ox church and then i'm a catholic

so i always thought church lasted an hour but some of these go on for hours and hours. there 915 first presbyterian church than the crowd from the 930 at the first christian reformed church. this village of 2000 has four different reform churches plus the evangelical and the bus going to the catholic church out of town. it has the same sustained rate of outcome as chevy chase. i asked a resident what's the complaint that you have? there were no seats that make kids christmaso program because all these people who don't even send their kids to public schools were there to watch the concert i said you are taking up my seat he said we

had to come watch our kids and use that phrase. the kids are our kids. thesee are the two models. so how are like these other places out there? they both have very strong institutions of society or our christian ministries or the public schools when they get good outcomes not because of the government programs they want me have the strong institution of civil society. so the working class is struggling alienation is the plague of middle america we talk about of shutting down

the realor problem is the church is closing down all the secular institutions that can exist but for the working class the church the synagogue and a mosque has always been the central institution of civil society. so now it is tolerable for the elites secularization has been deadly for the working class. that's what i argue and what i think i establish and thank you for coming i cannot think of to better people to talk to about with this so thank you and let's have a conversation. [applause] a

. >> megan i will let you go first. >> so many parts of this book that i loved i did not see this before publication apparently he withheld it from me but i will be my favorite passage from the book that sums it up versus the insight and the challenge to talk about in my mother's hometown of the dunkin' donuts opens up with the drive-through sending my grandfather out to get his toast and eggs and that is

dying offf slowly. losing the diner over the years this would weaken the connection they say there is nothing from keeping them from getting together anyway now they could meet at a park or wherever they want because they are liberated from the need to meet at a diner. but on the more immediate needs that are coming together that is less obvious butne real needs coming together for food or drink or security degradation is not noticeable in the short run. every time i think of the observation writing a letter that said everybody complained about the suffocating nature n the small towns if you read fiction up to the sixties it

is a dominant theme how terrible it is. then it went away and now we realize it was suffocating but it also provided the stuff that you could not see like a fish in water until it was gone so i will say that i think as a great admirer the weakest part of those books is the obligatory wide is to be done chapter and if i had my way we would just take that chapter because describing a problem often all by itself is valuable. so the difficulty of this.

but the question that i always have of recognizing problems because it really is a problem that theso old wealth system that people are making rational short-term decisions that is better for them in the short term and it made them more employable to create more problems for quinn the same way these are completely rational short-term decisions to build the camaraderie on any given morning to spend an hour at the diner or drive-through dunkin' donuts. at any given moment the cost is over the very long term. so the question we have to answer collectively is what do

you do with that so set them up so the government cannot mandate how we go to church but where do we do the work. but when it comes to solutions i am a libertarian. we don't do solutions. [laughter] but itis is true that they will ask you to give one. thinking about coming on today deciding just how gloomy it would be because in many ways you can see functioning communities either looking atde the problem closely enough and i go back to come apart so i

disagreed on a lot of things for all of them said a few things for necessary. it was religiosity, religiosity, honesty, industrios and what was the t fourth? i hate when that happens. these were characteristics of the american people going to enable the constitution to come together and you take a look at the trends of the working clas class, and they are devastating. you said briefly but correctly it has not progressed as far as people think.

at thehe faculty at harvard university and they do a survey. but there has been some secularization that has leveled off with 93 percent to have a strong ability to go to church. you go to working-class which ckis the backbone and here is the general social survey with 12 percent of people in the white working class they have a meaningful attachment to a church if you only have 12 percent then they do not provide.

so that is religiosity. but morality that was the fourth one. nobody talks about virtue anymore because the left has always been a little down on virtue as being preachy and judgmental. it is very embarrassing for conservatives to talk about the importance of virtue and character these days? get into an argument over national leadership. [laughter] but i will observe that if you say no what you really need in a political figure is

character because everything ultimately stems from character you want something you can hold up to your kids. thatds conversation is completely silent and will continue. guess what? the idea that a few people can exist the united states and ourr communities don't function in the absence of a strong sense of virtue. but to have a central theme of k the importance of religiosity.

because this would be fun to have steve on the panel but you don't have to have that. and to go back and forth that this is what happens when you are 76 you forget what you were trying to say. [laughter] . >> so thank you for bringing up virtue because the theme throughout the book over classical education and one of the things is practice. so a few different times but then how do you practice

virtue? and with a good public school in a church community. and these places can be practiced.d. so now church communities do that well so the reason you stay married and get involved in your kids lives because they have the best outcomes. and to think that is the thinking in the chevy chase and ann arbor of america so you worry about the futility for multiple generations. to many are unwilling to preach what they practice but it is a good line but not just about preaching that building the infrastructure where the

virtue was exercised and the people are trained. but it does take a village. virtue is the most important thingon and the people know that they have virtues know that it sounds preachy. >> so with this virtue idea and pessimism i don't think it's true the left does not believe in virtue but things are becoming sacred in this space and that i would say is a leading virtue people are extremely with all the rest of it. you can argue that is good virtue or not but it is.

it is true with family formation.it and it is a less personal virtue but possibly more likely to make others who are struggling with impressive architecture so you should take that as a virtue. but to push back on the pessimism if it is anchored in the fifties we have a lot of good data from 1910. but what we do know paints a different picture for example, geographically what you see in

1910 is an extremely fractured community much like the urban areas and the outpost where immigrants are arriving if they have that ethnic cohesion and certainly it is a brutal experience. you discount that physical labor. so we have had these problems before and they got better. religiosity was defining that to attach it to a church so of these narratives there are of the revolution going forward

in one direction but there was the 18th century sexual revolution but then it just stopped. so the idea that it is very possibly falls that we are in the middle - - middle of the big dislocation that is fractured. so if you look it is the so now there is a society organized the outlier.

so that is kind of of what you would expect. but we have these technological disruptions before so it is interesting this big social movement by ten years of communications. radio, fascism but then these are the fifties and sixties. not just here but all over the world. and how to make their lives and communities better? but people are incredibly robust. they were terrible in the etcs and they were killing each

other for go that wyoming is the family oriented nice place to live. i know i have talked a lot but it is a very interesting conversation with a colleague of mine at bloomberg who actually descended of total desperate poverty in the twenties and thirties. he had got very near there but his grandmother had lived in the gross swamps if you read the book you are horrified of the physical conditions and his grandmother moved out in her sixties when the government was renovating and

said it killed her. she had all her friends, she everyone and she went to where she knew no one and decided to die she got sick of life. these houses that are for tiny rooms and and are squalid withua big beds and vermin with toilets at the end of a back alley and the worst part of industrial manufacturing that is what was with almost the worst condition you can imagine. but it was to sustain them forcibly taken by a government

trying to make their lives better. cynic that is the optimism. but we like but the gravity of bringing people together but there are some specific forces to pull uspa apart a lot of those do have technology and government but but to hate other gathering or a full one - - other things i itself. it but that would be a couple generations. >> that's right. so who was with this vibrant

community in north england? . >> so we have the community present to adopt those policies of the outliers. wide you have mainstreet but it is all the kid who were writing were intellectuals so

in. but maybe there is no such that they but i just put that up there as a hypothesis but i will say that if you talk about it as a great divide in the united states culturally not so much those either in small towns or small cities or the megalopolis. the chapter nine but now it is only 50000 but so long association in but it is ozzie and harriet 19 fifties held over again.

and where basically it so we e say make it as easy as possible to be there and to be given freedom to run their lives as they see fit maybe the cities will be run differently but we will never hit the divisions we are talking about. >> i argue in the book part of what makes america exceptionally good at is to have these small communities and be productive with the exactly the federalis

federalism, mobility and ability so if it is happening with your family i am thinking it sounds is now hearing this of the - - it is so easy for him so what makes institutions valuable - - and is. and my hands are very marriage.

>> but what i am edging toward about my statement and authoritarian - - all the feedback loops that you need to run a successful society where i get she is.

>> but look at the northeastern core door. or we need more public transit but that same concept is why

but those from obama care fame have done memorable but then they lose but then it goes both ways.

butes that if you talk about social trust that you draft what everybody is ahead but then social roof go through then to look at all of

those that are which interactions. >> but then to reach out to each other to jeff about but

then to talk to any of these peoplero these are actually covered these communities is simple and fortnite can i get their parents that i am sure the the fellowship mode --dash fascist catalog but they just but ith actually think this is this versus the media for her but then to be a libertarian blogger left left but to do

stuff they could not have done but we should not extrapolate what we see him. >> it took us a while to get we are doing pretty good now. >> that's a good point. >> the best thing technology does is the temperature of that then with my kids to but

this is not the new urbanism but that there was a everywhere you go it is deliberate. you don't accidentally bump into the hood to go but that

is the fatal conceived that we are getting used to the capacity with information technology but the sizes of

those groups and how they will be cmac but if donald trump

was trying to win the republican nomination. but place like chevy chase but trump got 16 percent in the right berries today or even punch the 12 that then the lerst day at the those people who go to church but it wasn't

just the injuries had shut down they were not connected to other people. so how does he fix that? and former ai scholarly lead - - is not just being disconnected from community and society but then again they turned toward a central government and that was my political analysis. have you thought of anything different? . >> i am so befuddled by american politics i have nothing useful to say. i am appalled. >> there is a real sense even

in places like chevy chase but they are offsetting benefits expecting politics to be everything. national politics and not even just politics will be healthy and take care of all your needs but fulfill your emotional needs this is where you belong in the only thing that matters. fulfill this need and profoundly unhealthy for politics.

but, i will say this. you shouldn't lose a friend over politics. if you are in not see germany in 1933, that does not apply. we're not living in nazi germany in 1933. but in general, if you decided to vote for trump or you decided to hate to trump. you should understand, they disagree with me about something. and we can talk about that, we can argue or whatever but ultimately, i know all these other things about this person beyond their vote. i think that we just don't have anything else that fulfills that place for people. what's fascinating to me is how angry people get when i say that. theywill say, don't you understand .

the purpose of politics is to make people better off. to make the most possible people happy. it cannot possibly be true that the most possible people will be happy if they spend every waking hour angry about politics. >> is politics of the new religion? >> in some ways. >> i like pulling on the greek definition of politics. that man is a political animal. a lot of my libertarian friends don't like that idea if they take politics to mean this. that we are supposed to be legislating and regulating. we are not supposed to live our own lives according to what we think is right and wrong but we are also supposed to shape the world around us. this is something i don't think i would have said in my teens or early 20s.

then when you're raising kids, you realize it's one just in your own house and backyard, shaping that is not enough. you have to shape the world around you. we have a parish and two other schools that our children go to. we belong to a swim club a couple years back that was incredibly strong. there we can push and change rules or change it by physically being the guy to be there and carry something from one side of the pool to the other. even the intersection near our house. my wife and i lobbied our county government that they should change the way the lanes are set up and they looked at it and they did it. it was an amazing thing for me who writes about national politics on how only the special interests get their way.and they did it because it was on a local level.it was assessable and we can get that with people. these different levels where i

have so much ability through these institutions to shape the world around me. that's what's missing. >> i think the irony of it, right is that our politics is so broken in part because everyone hates each other so much. you can't do anything a national politics because everyone's so angry. you can look back at the new deal and say we got angry. we did something. you can look at that and say this accomplished something. the fact that we hate our neighbors so much has created gridlock in congress where everyone is waiting to get control of the whole thing so they can do whatever. everything they do is nonverbal. i would say man is a political

animal as much as a moral and normal. so we need more moral communities. for something that exists outside and beyond them and longer than they will. especially as they get older. which doesn't promise, hold out any promise of action. and by the act of investing so much and it, are making sure it cannot do anything. because people become so determined to block their opponents. >> there were are a lot of arguments to me made that politics holds the role that religion used to hold. if you're talking about the great traditions, these are religions that teach the right lessons in terms of loving and in terms of your moral responsibilities. if you're deeply engrossed in

the rules. you are not filled with hate. you're not filled with anger and so forth. and politics by its very nature tends to make people angry. in so far as that becomes the religion of a secularizing society, the long-term outlook is not good. >> politics. the lesson of enlightenment with religious institutions, don't make good governments and government doesn't make a good religion. i think that's something that america needs to relearn. >> i think people naturally without knowing it, want to exercise and flex their political muscles. and they think, this is where bernie sanders and occupy wall street came from. why don't i have any ability to exercise my political muscles and shape the world around me? because all they know, all they

think of is washington d.c.. so they say it must be because special interest have much control. four of the promise at the end of this. i told this story in the book of how i did not understand what they were talking about. because there was an occupied dc. a couple of them. when i asked people what they were upset about. they said the implementation of the - - rule. [laughter] >> most of whom worked at - - >> you say, what are you upset about? i thought, ground here. they will be against wars, against bailouts, corporate welfare. one of the policies you don't like?the lack of campaign-finance reform.but what else? citizens united.

i'm like okay, fine, all of the special interests are in a closed room. it's smoke filled and you are locked out. what are they doing in that room that you dislike? and they said, making sure the voice of the people isn't heard. to me it seemed there was no there, there. it took me a while to say, that's a real complaint. you don't have the ability. that image of the gym again. there's nothing to provide resistance. nothing to reach out and grab, you are there standing alone and alienated not able to shape the world around you. and you think the problem is that there are super packs spending too much money. >> should be go to questions? >> yes. we have a microphone that will come over to you. are the microphones working?

why don't we start right appear in front. [laughter] >> there we go. >> i wanted to get to the subtitle of the book. why some places thrive and others collapse. i identify as a midwesterner. i'm actually from wisconsin. when i was back last summer i was in a town called - - which is the home of the republican party with a well-known small, liberal arts or some kind of college. the elementary school in downtown, had been converted to small, independent senior living. because there are no kids. and people who lived in the

countries with farms, etc. were moving to town to live collectively. and that's what's happening in sort of rural iowa, wisconsin. doesn't matter where. so, the question is, part of it is because there used to be small manufacturing throughout wisconsin. factories with 100, 300-400 people. the paper industry. coffeepot industry. small factories. were increasingly bought out by bigger companies like kimberly-clark that became global companies.so, i'm wondering, when you talk about why some places thrive and why they collapse. if it isn't also in part the loss of small farming and small manufacturing. >> thank you. i think that's a huge part of it. often it's the first domino.

but, i have a shuttered church rather than a factory on the front of the book for a reason. because i think that the real efficient cause, the main calls, is the collapse of the other institutions that follow. one contrast i paint in the book is between pittsburgh and then uniontown, pennsylvania. uniontown is in fayette county. it's about 45 minutes-one hour south of pittsburgh. both of these places were devastated by the steel industry moving over, first europe and then china. pittsburgh is doing well now. fayette county and uniontown are not. they are - - fayette - - was a real city back in the day. why were they not able to survive the downturn?

my argument is that if you've been to pittsburgh, you know there's all these little neighborhoods. all of them are built around church. a lot of them are ethnically distinct. you have the jewish neighborhood. polish and italian neighborhoods bid and irish neighborhood. you've got all of these different neighborhoods in these churches and these other institutions, including a local public school where everyone things of the kids as our kids. while the places that are just a little morespread out. they are thinner. they have a church or two , but when the factory shuts down, it's just less resilience. i imagine the role of communities resting on a dinner membrane that was easier to snap because they didn't have a dense network. so you are a can't tell the story without the story of the shutting factories.

in chapters 2-4, i go through a lot of that. but you're skipping a step if you go from this factory closed to the opioid epidemic. you're skipping the step of this factory closed and it couldn't stay together because then the other institutions closed. ... questions. there's one part where you said there is an increased social mistrust because video games often miss flux and i'm wondering if you can explain that more. >> what was i referring to

their? the research that establishes this is by robert i'm and so he was subsequently doing additional work and what he found was when you have multi-ethnic communities, that social trust became very low and it's not just one ethnicity didn't trust another. trust within the ethnicity also declined and this was a very consistent finding and has seen a lot of replication. i think i've seen a couple of replication that it's not a universal. there are lots of reasons that it shouldn't surprise us, but it's a problem in a multiethnic

country. >> there is a kind of -- you are more likely to have a language that is talked about in the book but there is a fairly common college ethos but that's not where the bulk of immigration in the united states is and so this seems to be very surprising finding to the upper middle class educated people because it isn't a finding that could replicate in a suburb that has a very diverse population of college-educated people finding the communities that are a lot thicker this is where my family came in 1850. people have been there for a long time.

education they have various ideas about the way to do thin things. >> it's hard to have cohesion in the community if you don't share enough. so, if you come to my incredibly ethnic diverse -- the only diversity is which president nominated you to the supreme court. if you come to saint andrews in silver spring, it has an incredible diversity and strong cohesion because they have invested in the catholic education of their children, so there is that strong cohesion. the follow-up study that disagrees with it says maybe it's not the diversity that

leads to the cohesion but it's a transition. of so that's an awkward interpretation. i talk about if you don't speak the same language but also the difference in customs. i have a neighbor that lives next door, and so this quick passage here after a few months giving me a ride to the metro i invited him for a beer on my back deck. for religious reasons he doesn't drink alcohol that's admirable that creates a barrier. after the frustration i approach him with a very awkwardly direct question. i would like to have you over for a drink but with liquid do you actually consume? [laughter]

he said it violated his religious obligation to care for creations and finally he suggested slaughter with someone in our line and i send my kids off to the grocery store to pick up a lemon in a line and go a couple big pictures and put my children to bed and then we finally got to know each other over many glasses of gently citrus tidewater. this shows it isn't impossible but it takes a lot more effort and have potential pitfalls. it's reasonable to infer the cultural differences tend to begin the communities. but if we are serving pork then can we invite our muslim neighbors we live in a very jewish communities. there is one time we actually use our grail and out of mistake i got a third one for a house at a paris auction where they also had beer because we are catholics. we kept it a grail for one

cookout. so, the beautiful cultural differences that make diversity sort of exciting as it is also then make it a little more work to build the cohesion. that's why if you share the only two college or catholics raising our kids easier to get over that. >> in the 50s the big thing was for the battalion and irish catholics to rumble at football games and now they are on the north shore. [laughter] so it is possible to overcome these things. >> the book is fantastic and everybody in the room needs to buy it.

>> come back to the ethnicity thing though. you talked about race in the book and the towns that you folded down as my generation sound quaint because they don't have white ethnicity (-left-paren i grew up in an average neighborhood tha but ths just no longer the case. if these places have still observed this remarkable blast from the past of these cohesion what hope ethnic and religious overlap with communities united by -- >> what do you see as the most plausible sources of civic cohesion for communities that don't start out with those if i can call them natural advantages. >> in the past we had the

italian neighborhoods in pittsburgh etc. and a quick political points one of the best predictors of how much support in the early primary in 17 was the number of people that went after ancestry and said american. so, not having ethnicity made you more likely to vote for trump because it enhanced the sense of alienation, less religion and less words but again megan is more optimistic so maybe she can offer that, but i do think other forms of identity replace it. one thing mentioned earlier, you do see a lot of people now really developing pride in a specific neighborhood. when i went to dc in 200 there was a difference which side of capitol hill you lived on but there was no pride. i've never lived in park slope

and then in small cities like grand rapids it's another one of these dutch places but also a bunch of twentysomething hipsters with pride. i did speak with grand rapids tattoos and they love the local beer scene and food truck and all that stuff so i do think that there can be justin that we are in a neighborhood and it has a real pride in that. >> i think that it is complicated. america's racial legacy is its original command the sort of original sin isn't going to be extricated very easily. it's going to require some sort of hero at the sacrifice.

are we went to make that sacrifice and what form does that take. i think we are in a metaphor far beyond merely go and we have to drop it. but i think that there is absolutely help. but i think that the periods of enormous social change are not good to kind of try to predict what things are going to look like in 20 years and we are in a period just unusually rapid economic political change, technological change. and i don't know where it ends up, so i don't know how to even frame o how the community will fill these needs and for which groups. but i will say that i think it is obviously a too helpful plays

it can come it's har it's hard t the answers are to make it possible for african-americans to fun places that are not just a socially fixed because there are a lot of theories for the african-american neighborhoods. so, the challenge is the kind of stable economic prosperity which has been much harder for african-american neighborhoods to achieve because of a. >> while there's been a lot of social capital, i talked earlier about the forces that act to pull people apart is easy to think of our racial history and segregation and just talk about taking away rights from black people and their access to other institutions. part of it was a deliberate attempt to prevent solidarity,

family and solidarity. a huge part of the oppression that happened was the powers that be keeping them from forming little platoons that were to provide sort of a robustness and it was a church that provided in the institution it was institutions that ended the worst of the segregation and that part of why there was this trust and efforts to break up the institutions. >> right here in the middle. can you explain why it isn't

just a useful tool, why is it something that needs to be addressed considering there isn't much use for these populations we are talking about economically? >> this is one of the things that you sometimes encounter in the world of policymaking was they say the economy grew while the factories went overseas and people lost their jobs and sort of faded out of usefulness that we are doing fine. i had friends say it's like it's embedded this collapse.

i've said it before every human being is of infinite value and we simply cannot allow that sort of thing to happen and it's not loneliness and people are sad. a year renovation of people when they don't have the ability to connect to others and sort of the economy that allow them to exist and form to do better if we are not letting them and given the avenue to pursue the greater good it is a disservice.

for one more question is all the time for. where is the microphone right now flex. >> all very isolated and it's the pace of modernity making all of us like those primitive tribes that keeps coming so we have the same future shock if

you will even though we are modern. >> it has a brief passage like that where it talks about the ancestors from kentucky and your own sister-in-law telling you how to parent they get on the highway and go to this suburb. >> it is completely different at the same. it's different because you are now separate without the intense connection that is one of the passages that made me realize i had to write this book without that connection they were living in a culture that theoretically

could lift people up. >> is confronted with all this stuff we forget what's important doesn't mean it isn't important if it is objectively true that they flourish you go through a variety of other things and say these are true so we can afford to say an awful lot of what we are seeing now as a novelist is a behavior that's been pulled out of shape by culture and

technological shock. it's whether its place i made the mistake to talk about it for their valentine's day economic issues. it triggers an argument between the rights sitting in the middle unfortunately they really

increased one and -- really angry storm. what you noticed from the conversations back and forth as both sides are trying to get the same thing they want the other side to be committed so that they will have something to fall back on ultimately you have to have norms that people are not able to get what they need and if they don't work for long enough i looked at a tribe.

they try to do this when they are farming and the anthropologist said every morning they would read a bell and go out in the fields together and no one showed up and so they have to evolve new norms about property like this is mike hatch you can't have it. and it has been rapidly. that's the kind of amazing thing it wasn't like they didn't believe these things it was fundamental to their system that's like my yard is mine and you can't come to it unless i

let you, but it changed because the circumstances changed so i had tremendous belief in the short term with some of people and our ability to evolve and adapt and build things that do work and are enduring that take us beyond ourselves. >> that is a good note to end on and what a great discussion. we could go on all day, but we found it's been live stream data available for you to send through your various social media preferences. don't leave without a copy.

>> i met some of the most amazing people not motivated by money or status or celebrity but the desire to live in a right relationship with each other and the desire to do good. they've taken a heavy burden that leave very inspiring lives. >> now on c-span twos book tv, more television for serious readers. next on booktv "after words," whether the american dream is attainable today. interviewed by daniel belton of the route. "after words" is a weekly prograprogram with relevant guet hosts interviewing top nonfiction authors that their latest works.