foreign relations -- council on foreign relations will up occupy more time than these books unfortunately. >> watch for responses by searching "what are you reading" at booktv.org. >> a quick look at type of's primetime schedule. at 8:00 permanent even, georgeer georgia rubble congressman bob bra with talk about the impeachment of president bill clinton how that relates into the current investigation into president trump. then rhythm character is the guest. he'll discuss how to make cyber space more secure. journalist allen surfingen and aaron shot will talk about how president trump's decide to run to office was not impulsive. and check your cable guide for more schedule information.

[inaudible conversations] >> good evening, everyone. can everybody hear me okay? no. it's not on. how about now? that's better. okay. thank you for coming. i'm laurie gillman, co-owner of east city book shop and i'm really happy to welcome everybody e everyone here tonight. anyone the crowd who is here for the first time? one person. welcome. we're very glad you're here. normally we have at least half the crowd who is here for the first time but this is very much a hometown crowd this evening so i hope everybody buy -- behaves

for you. we're happy to have repeat customers back and some of you we see in here often and i just want to aheartfelt thank you for toe everybody for supporting the book store. before we get started a few logistics. first, please silence your cellphones. i forget -- when i forget to do that -- eye say that i always regret it so please do that. i'll do that, too. okay. books are for sale upstairs for anyone who missed that at the cash registers. he you haven't purchased a book yet and would like to, you'll have time after the talk to purchase and come back down for signing. carl will be signing right after the talk right here and final important detail, restrooms are upstairs to the left and past the registers at the back of the shop. okay, moving on to tonights

re event i think the majority of your here know carl. so i'm going to stick with the very short and sweet bio. carl is chief washington correspondent for "the new york times." he also served as the washington editor of the times and chief congressional correspondent. he has reported on washington for morning three decades and still somewhat sane. right? carl has been a resident of capital hill for more than 30 years and is devoted to our neighborhood. he asked me to say that. his books confirmation bias leads us through the machinations and senate on both sides that brought is to present fraught system for judicial confirmation and we'll have time for audience questions. please join me in welcoming carl hulse. [applause]

>> wow. i have to say this is the kind of odd experience, to look out and know almost everybody in here quite well. so, sort of a very hometown, as she said, crowd. so it's great. i'm sure many of you are surprises i've actually written a book. lots of familiar face us. also want to know that c-span is recording and will air this show, so fugitive from justice or other problems, make sure you stay away from the camera. so we can all be on tv. thank you, c-span. i'm a huge c-span supporter, and do a lot with them. they're great people. so, talk about the book. called "confirmation bias" and people have being asking be mountain the title and it was proposes by one modify agent, matt, who is a very good writer myself and when we were brainstorming title useds and had a whole bunch of them, some were terrible, and we settled on

this one if thought it was perfect for a couple of reasons. it's snappy, people look at it and go, what does that actually mean? but it actually is also sums up what i think is a complicated aspect of this whole fight i talk about in the book. both parties, democrats and republicans, feel they are aggrieved in these confirmation fights that have been going on since basically late of 60s, and to some degree they're right. both parties have been treated badly by the in confirmation process. they've been doing -- inflicted a lot of damage on each other. the nomination process, the senate and the government of the united states. i think it's a big problem going forward. she messengered fraught. that's a good way of thinking. i'm going to talk about that later. but what happened here, everyone seize this on capitol hill from their own point of view. everybody thinks they've been

taken advantage of, treated badly so what happened when they get the chance to do this to the other side, they do it, and that's what has happened here. just become a corrupt process. what has happened since february heightened that bias through an extraordinary set of circumstances. when i say in the book -- i say this several times, when i say a snap decision on february 13, 2016, changed the course of history. i'm not exaggerating and i'm going to prove it to you here tonight. february 13th, was very eventful day for a lot of reasons. the saturday before valentine's day. it was during a congressional recess. i was at band practice. and that was, as we knoll now the day that antonin scalia died or was found indiana a luxury hunting lodge in west texas, under strange circumstances. i will say people always ask me

about scalia, was he murdered or was there some conspiracy theory related to this? and i've talked to people at the highest levels of the u.s. government at the time, none of the suspected any foul play or -- you'll find this on the internet but he was an older guy, he liked to smoke and drink and wasn't very healthy, and no one suspected any foul play there. so, he is found dead in his room. the presidential suite at this resort, and that set up a lot of -- set off a lot of activity, as i said i was at band practice we finished. my phone blew up. what happened? mitch mcconnell, the kentucky republic and majority leader of the senate at the time, was in the caribbean on what turned out to be his annual beach visit. i was surprised to hear that mitch had an annual beach visit.

i think is a wife liked the beach. the secretary, and i say in the book, mitch just kind of isn't the guy you see hanging out at the resort and around the pool. but at the beach he was. so he got early word, as i describe in the book, kind of via the scalia family that this -- the justice had died. and so normally in these cases, it's such a big figure on the national stage, there's a mourning period and everybody wants to talk about justice scalia, his cases, his life and work and leave the politics out of it, but of course, a lot of people here who have worked in congress and know about this, that's on the outside. on the inside everybody is talking about the politics and that's just the way it goes, but everybody usually there's a little -- it's like good taste to hold back and not immediately start talking about politics and

even in the media we kind of do it. i'm sitting at hem trying to digest this and it's like, can we really start talking about filling the vacancy now or have to wait a day? so, as it turns out, this was not one of those cases where anyone was willing to wait. i'll read a little bit about this from the book. so mitch is down in the caribbean. as he sat in his hotel room transfixes by report scalia's odd death, mcconnell's first thoughts with0 of his own accommodation we anyone know schoolarch beginning whiff day as lowly staffer in the shadow of three impressive officialed in department of justice. of the otherwood were lauren silverman and robert bork. i remember just being completely dim integrated diintelligence and wit of these guys interacting with each other every morning. mcconnell told me is in an interview about a year and a

half ago the first person that i interviewed for the book because i knew i had to have mitchell mitchell's story. ten years later he was in the senate, enable to enthusiastically support scalia's nomination by reagan. the two developed a warm personal relationship would dine together occasionally. for mcconnell the death of scalia represented a huge lot, quiet, clearly someone of the oliver wendell holmes, thurgood marshall class. a big deal. this being mitch mcconnell he quickly put a side personal emotion and could pragmatic include zero on another what matter, who and what would could. next him i second thought was to turn to politic offered the situation, he said. the first thing that came into my mind was that i knew if the shoe was on the other foot, they wouldn't fill this vacancy. i knew it for sure. they, the democrats, pitching

sitting -- mitch is sitting there in this caribbean suite, thinking if this happened and republican president, democratic senate, 11 month left in the president's term, the democrats would obviously not go along with it. now i get asked this question a lot. what do i think democrats would have done in the same situation, because as we know it came up, biden, schumer, had in earlier talks kind of suggested they wouldn't do it which became a big talking point of the republicans during the whole fight. and my experience is the democrats would have totally caved because what that democrats do. they would not have been able to sustain this blockade. just wouldn't have done it. democrats are pro government.

and we'll never know what would have happened and maybe i'm wrong but barny frank said, putting the republicans in charge of the government is like putting me in charge of the miss america contest. i'll do it but i won't be into it. so, i don't know what would have happened. mitch mcconnell is thoroughly convinced that it would have been the same result. i don't think so. but he is now set in motion a really extraordinary chain of events. a lot is going on that night. this is a big night. saturday night. so much going on. this is why things happen. so i'm sitting there at -- right before 6:00, and get this now famous e-mail from the majority leader's office that says, scalia died, we need to appreciate his service, but we -- mitch mcconnell says we

also need to recognize that the democrats aren't going to be able to fill the seat. so close to the election. we need to let the people decide who is going to fill the supreme court seat. 11 months left. february, obama is leaving january 20th the next year. so it's not like the moving vans are in the circle of the white house. there's a lot going on here. so, this night is extraordinary and everything that went on really explains hough this all played out. so, mcconnell is down there, there is a republican primary debate that night in south carolina. and this is a huge thing that drove everyone's decisionmaking that day. so, as he's trying to -- weighing his choices on how to do this, mcconnell talks to josh holmes, who was his chief of staff, super sharp political operative. now runs a private strategy firm here. he is on he phone with

mcconnell and says, if you're going to do this strategy and totally prevent them from going forward, you need to do it really fast because there's a presidential primary debate that night, ted cruz is in it. ted cruz is a former supreme court clerk, a lot of the judicial area committee, a lot of experience and if this becomes cruz's idea to block the nominee, the republicans aren't going to want to do it because nobody wants to do ted crews' bidding for him so that's why mcconnell acted so quickly. he needed to get out in front of this. so everybody is looking at scalia's death, knowing it's going to be a big thing at this debate and trying to strategize around it, and so another person who is strategizing around this debate is donald trump. so, don mcgahn, who is a major character in the book, very interesting guy, don mcgahn was trump's campaign attorney, used to be on the fec.

he was appointedded by george w. bush and put on there with mitchell mitchell's help because don mcgahn, i've anyone him a long time and call him a radical libertarian. an anti-burkeic -- antiburcratic person and when he got on the fec, he shut down the federal election commission and stopped them from doing some of the regulation to liberals here that sounds bad. to don mcgahn that was exactly what he wanted to do and exactly what mitch mcconnell wanted him to do. so he is trump's attorney in the campaign but he knows a lot about the nomination process, having been through itself himself, and he knows a lot about conservative juris prudence, and so he is talking to trump, but don also in a band, by the way, and a very good one, and he had a weekend

gig. so hearings what happened between trump and don mcgahn. don mcgahn trumps campaign lawyer was driving along route 50 to ocean city, maryland, his car packed with band gear for a weekend give was guitarrest with a group called scott's new band. scott's new band, big beach bar cover band, really good he glanced at an incoming text from his wildfire, shannon. scalia died, she wrote. mcgahn pulled off theship a park can lot o a wawa gas station and convenience, shocked, shaken and saddened by the news and then like mcconnell turned to the political implications up mcgahn now miss candidate might be at a disadvantage against senators who had more experience with judicial politics and was worried but cruz, the on streppous texan who sender on the judiciary committee and checked for chief justice

william rhenquist, cruz was hanging on as a rival and potential conservative alternative to trump and would try to capitalize on the political implications of scalia's death. mcgahn called trump to warn him not to be the first politicize cal ya's passing. what but putting out names? recognizing that specific perspective nominees might go over well with the conservative audience he was courting. mcgahn agreed that was good idea and quickly ran through possibilities. brett kavanaugh is the first name that came to his mind, promoting promoting the judge recognize inside washington as a rising conservative star of the federal bench. he and trump kicked around a few others including the appeal court jumps william prior jr. of alabama, and diane sykes, two favorites hardline conservativeses. as they weighs the pros and cons the candidate and his lawyer concluded it wasn't the best time for trump to embrace kavanaugh, washington insider and a george w. bush appointee

to the court that produces chief justice john g roberts in disfavor for upholding the healthcare law. the moderator opened the debate with a moment of silence for scalia but the silence didn't last long he asked trump if with 11 months to go in the hypothetical -- his hypothetical presidential term, would bow to democratic demands me not put forward a nominee. quote from john i would want to try to dominate a justice. i'm sure that frankly i'm absolutely sure that president obama will try to do it if hope our senate is going to be able, mitch and the entire group, is going to be able to do something about it. and by doing something about it, trump meant doing nothing about it. so this was right from the get-go. right from the get to go with brett kavanaugh. ing and. -- interesting. so, mcgahn when we was sworn in

on the fec was sworn in in kavanaugh's chamber by kavanaugh in 2006. and he's walk out with shannon, i his wife, who i've known for a long time. he said that guy is going to be on the supreme court some day but didn't know he would be the go to put him on the supreme court. so, this was the beginning of the famous list for trump. the idea of putting forward some names to reassure conservatives. conservatives were really worried but trump. been a democrat in new york, contributed to plant parentedhood, his sister was federal judge in the new jersey-pennsylvania district had ruled on some abortion rights issues that were -- so cruz was running around, spreading the idea that trump was going to either appoint his sister, who is proabortion, or somebody like his sister and he was using this pretty well in south carolina.

so trump and mcgahn are trying in figure out a way to stop this and one way to stop it was to start throwing out names of conservatives. trump, because after his sister being there he kind of got the federal judiciary and get a little more than he got other parts of the government. trust me. at that point. he didn't understand it perfectly. i have a quote from him talking about the bills his sister had signed as judge. so that didn't happen. but this was -- the book really makes the case that this vacancy and trump's ability to use the list and do some other things was crucial and probably instrumental into this election. that's what i mean by making history. think if this hadn't happened, i think there's very good chance that trump would not have been elected and i'll talk more about that. and you would have a completely different situation on the supreme court.

obama would have gotten his pick, maybe hilary would have won. we're talking about complete opposite. some other dimension somewhere this is happening. so now it's on the obama administration. here's this vacancy. they've got to figure out a way to get their guy in there, and the debate and the news cycle is affecting obama, too. he is out in rancho mirage playing government, holiday weekend. everybody is gone from washington and so they're getting the news out there and they're astonished that mcconnell has come out so quickly and said, we're not going to let you fill this vacancy. and they also, a little thing here -- that they had to scramble and get him some decent clothes because he is playing golf and the -- so there's a debate whether they should just issue a statement or he could shoo go on video because this is really quickly getting out of control, because chuck schumer called denis mcdonough, the

chief of staff at the time in d.c. at his kid's soccer game if ask everybody where they were when they got new news scalia died. it was interesting because everybody is scatter. heels at his kid's soccer game and his phone rings and chuck schumer says watch out the republicans will say you can't fill this vacancy. and dennis is like little what are you talking about? they were having a hard time accepting how radical the republicans would be in this one. so, important part of the book, there's meeting that wednesday after scalia dies at the white house, where they brought in some people who were -- with real experience in doing judicial nominations, including ron kline, who worked for gore, worked on a lot of nominations and also the guy who in tallahassee was in charge of the recount for al gore. really experienced person. so, they have a meeting, and

denis is like, let's go through all the motions. we're going to go through these interviews, interview the people. we've done this twice before success live with kagan and sonia sotomayor. we have a big book that tells us how to do this and he'll go by the book. and ron -- at the meetings ending and he goes to denis, denis, we have to -- we know president obama is going to nominate merritt garland for the seat help has been kept specifically for this situation. he's got republican support, oregon hatch already said he would vote for him. republican support. you need to have the president go out into the rose garden tomorrow, the thursday after school ya dies, and nominate merritt garland, otherwise you'll wait month, get away from us and we'll lose, and they decided to go by the book. so, what happened was -- so also

one of my -- i like this part -- a harry potter fan and we're in a book store so have to throw some literary stuff. merritt garland was a big fan of the harry potter books. he useds them in his speeches, d around the white house he kind of became known a little bit dumble dorf. that's they way they chargized him to themselves. have to keep an eye on the time. here was this guy, outstanding individual issue don't think anyone would dispute that. had given so much and they throw him out there because they don't want to -- there's other

younger ones they think they can put forward but afraid they'll be ruined. this is merritt garland's last chance to be on the supreme court. a model to the democrats, many democrats am model for the supreme court but there's pushback because he's older, and he's sort of moderate so there are people in the party who are thinking, obama should pick a much younger, maybe a minority, woman, to exercise the base. maybe they won't get a person through but that will help drive democratic voting voting in nov. but the obama administration -- with some logic says let's go with merritt garland and what happens is they just ran into a stone wall. mcconnell, chuck grassley, not getting anywhere. grass loo is a big key to this. he used to be bipartisan, got as the republican party in iowa became much more conservative, and led by evangelicals, sort of

moved away from this bipartisan attitude. he didn't want to move ahead with this either, and they even dish love this -- they came up with a woman, harry reid always crafty, came up with an opponent for grassley named patty judge. so, patty judge had been the ag commissioner i think in iowa previously elected statewide. she was in her 70s which was kind ode 0 old for a first senate young but is a decade younger than grassley so they got this candidate to -- every time her name is mentioned, people are going to remember that they're blocking a judge. right? didn't work for them. and one of the big problems was the money wasn't there they had a big plan, i lay out in the book, $36 million they would campaign and do a big campaign behind merritt garland but the money wasn't there because

the -- most democrats assumed hillary would win. so either she's going to get to appoint somebody or they'll go with garland. so, they -- there was a lot of press events and things on the hill but ran out of steam. go to the convention in philadelphia, and the republicans head made a think but the supreme court at their convention. at the conscription in the democratic convention? philadelphia, merritt gar learned's name was not mentioned one time. not one time. a conscious decision. they didn't want to politicize it. they're playing by the rules. so nothing. so then there's a meeting at the white house, they come back, and valerie jarrett gets in all the interest people from the judiciary, the progressives, how are we going selmer resident garland? what are you doing for me to get merritt garland through? and nat, a head of the oldest democratic leaders the area

says, what are we going to do snow just had a convention, the super scripted thing and didn't mention his name once and now we have to do that? and it was interesting how the republicans approached this. -by seed both grassley and oregon hatch for the book, and they just actually didn't think that this was that big a deal. because they thought trump is going to lose, clinton will win, and this is just a postponement. the democracies will get who they the democrats will get who they want and will be forgotten. everybody including trump thought he would lose if talked to both mcconnell's people and reince people the night before some they assumed trump would lose and they were going to lose the senate for sure. and it just didn't happen. and there's an incident -- so mitch mcconnell follows the election at the national republican senatorial committee and reagan building over there, the reagan headquarters, the one

by union station. the niece go on becomes clearer and clearer that trump might actually win and c-span is here soybeans do any terrible mitch mcconnell imitation but -- but basically -- all right, i'll do it. basically he was -- he turned to somebody at some point and said, are re going do make america great again tonight? and they did. from his perspective. lots of history in all of this. how it all happened, goes back to '60s to me. nixon, a member of congress -- i don't know -- maybe you were in that round of nixon -- nixon lost back-to-back nomination us. a a lot of hostility and mitch mcconnell is a brand new staffer on the judiciary committee, and he participates in watches these huge nomination

fightness '60s and affects him and makes the court preeminent to mitch mcconnell. so, that really got him involved. then you have in the '80s, reagan comes in -- judicial jobs, a lot of times before this were basically patronage jobs, jobs in and positions to really prominent and senators would use to reward their lawyer buddies back in the states and they had a lot of control over this, carter trade to reform it. reagan comes in and starts to push conservative judges on abortion and school rare and puts on sandra day o'connor, the first woman, and just becomes more and more intense. the parties start to clash more intentionally over in the judges. bork, of course, clarence thomas, clarence thomas got married that weekend here in washington, and so we have special affinity for that because everybody was at the wedding and lived over by the

senate buildings and everyone at the wedding totally remembers being here for the clarence thomas hearings that weekend. so, i focus in the book on the post w. elect nomination fights. you have to remember how w. got elected any supreme court and empty what considered a super partisan decision and still is. so, he is -- the democrats on the hill consider him illegitimate in a lot of ways. they don't think he should have an easy time getting his nominations through, and they start to put up a fight, but weirdly enough, james everswitches parties and gives the democrats temporary control of the senate. chuck schumer interjections himself interest the nomination fight and wants to allow members to openly talk but ideology in moving ahead with nomination because at this point, everybody

tries to keep that out of the picture. only supposed to talk but judicial qualifications, but obviously it's all about ideology, and it's kind of hidden. so he wants it to be more open. the republicans don't like that. so these fights get more and more intense and i actually have whole chapter on miguel estrada, a prominent hispanic conservative lawyer who became the first appeals court nominee to be defeated by a filibuster, extremely long, drawn-out fight. the democrats opposed him. tom daschle, harry reid, and if you talk to the democrats now they would say, they wish they hadn't done that. miguel estrade da, much rather have him on the supreme court than the other people who are there. so that was probably mistake they admit it and this starts this extremely intense partisan warfare over the judicial

nominations. bill frist becomes the major yet lighter, we remember what happened to trent lott and the democracies are challenging them. and frist and the republicans are getting so furious that they're threatening to detonate the nuclear option and change the rules the senate and it seems so extreme that a group of senators got together, known as the gang of 14, led by mccain, susan collins, ben nelson the democratic leader in my book and they cut a deal to vet some of these judges through and sort of take the pressure off he, the gang of 14. but it's a defeat for bush and frist who later leaves the senate, but it took lot of the power away from the majority. some got through, some didn't. the agreement didn't last but they make this deal and things calm down for a while, but this

is one of my favorite parts of the book. i'm there that night, i can remember if it's a monday or tuesday. everybody is all stirred up. this is one of these big moments in senate and everybody giving speeches and john horner was a big part of the gang of 14. i'm sure many people here know john werner like central casting senator and super dignified but a guy who loved the institution and i'll read of my john warrener in story. outside the senate chambers narrow marle hall we were where senators use six salivators to come and werner the distinguished virginiaan eloquently held forthafter the deal was announces on the cultural of the senate the rights of the minority, the constitution, and the need to preserve the tradition of such a glorious institution. a bravure a performance by a senate showman. happened to about the long with paul cain, role cal reporter who

joined the weapons weapons and a "new york times" colleague. quite speech, senator i told werner you ought to write book. a snook a famous playboy of the senate who had been married to elizabeth taylor. if i wrote a book merck mused, all anyone would want to know is how lists liz was in bed weapon all laughed. i said, maybe that could be a chapter. oh, no, said werner, his eyes lighting up at the memory, more than a chapter. great story by a guy who was very good senator. so, all this -- these mash nations set the d mash machinations set the stage for the garland fight and started again in -- one more little piece here. in 2013, harry reid is very frustrated that the

republicans are holding up obama nominees to the d.c. suggester court. very important court. we all -- they make a lot of decisions that fake us directly because of government policy, so he decides to -- going to change the rules to get these obama nominees in, and he does. and there's a big moment in november of 2013, harry reid finally detonates the nuclear option that everyone has been talking about. senate rules are changed and he gets a bunch of obama judges through, but they didn't do one thing they probably should have done at that point. eliminate this process called the blue slips. still allowed republicans to block a lot of judges. so, republicans are furious over what happened. first chance they got, they got their revenge. mitch mcconnell has changed the rules twice since then, one to eliminate the filibuster

against supreme court knock neats to get-go such in and then recently to limit post closure time to only two hours, and it's really allowed them to speed up their pushing through of federal judges. they've got more than 125 through. they're going to fill every vacancy they can just in case a democrat were to win the white house. and the results are showing. in the last few days. there was a big argument this week in louisiana on the kaz affordable care act. the trump nominated judge was hostile to the aca and the ruling couple out today against the emoluments case that the maryland and the district of columbia had brought against the trump administration with one of the new trump judges joining in

the majority on that. so these things are real. and going to have antique for a very long time, and i can talk a lot more about implications of this in the future, but i've been telling people, you or your kids in 20 or 30 years will see some decision come down and you'll go how did that come down? and you'll go, that was a trump appointed judge. so, it's pretty -- i hate to be pessimistic, things are very bad. on capitol hill in terms of how this is all going to play out. mean, super hostility. now almost deer rigor ifor in one party to vote against tee other party. say there's a democratic president and republican senate. not unlikely how do you get any

nominees through? they're just going to say, the democrats oppose all off nominees for trump we'll do the same and he we'll probably do it little more because that what happened. all do it a little more. so not seeing a real way out of this right now. you'll see in the presidential campaign a lot more discussion than democrats have normally talk but the court because they real a's republicans have been much better at using the court as a voting weapon than the democrats have. the democrats created a knew group, demand justice, that is trying to hold democrats more accountable on this, but after that spring um they're a new republican group that sprang it called article 3 project that's after the democrats on this. so it's a mess. and hopefully there will be some solution but i think it will take a while and going do have to be some kind of structural change, democrats -- everybody accept biden right enough is sort of arguing for some changes in the court. maybe expanding it, more like an

appeals court. biden said he would nominate merritt garland if he got the chance, which to me was -- merritt garland is a great person he would be 68 minimum. trump's two judges to he supreme court are in their five do 50s and all the trump judges are younger and more conservatives than the people they are replace, even the republican nominated judges. so, somebody said maybe we need another constitutional convention. have to have some big changes but it's going to be difficult. it's a big election coming up. i'll take questions, and happy to talk about any of this or news of the day. [applause] >> i know it's painting for some of you ha of the to clap for me. i. >> when you look at the census issue, the possibility of trump

doing executive order, is its actually fees able that trump wins on the census issue or other issues and thumbs his nose see supreme court and what can the supreme court do is the president of the united states says i'm going to do the and i don't care. >> i actually predict in my book that some point -- he is asking what are the prospect for trump actually defying the supreme court on the census question if he doesn't gut his way and what would the court be able to do? and i'm so glad he askeds it because i have a whole bun on the subject. it's a real dilemma because i said in the book that once the legitimacy of the courts get threatened be people who see them more as partisan operators than objective operators, which is obviously happening in this country, i said there could be a moment when people start to say, the other branches of the government say, we're just going to ignore the court.

thought was down the line but we're looking at possible situation right now. so, with the census, the justice department attorneys hads given up. they weren't going to do this. and trump gets callings from his conservatives friends out there it's like you can't give up on this and he comes out and says we're not giving up. that's fake news. so this evidently really disturbed the people in the justice department who had announces they were giving up and they didn't like being characterized as fake news. trump has trade to n.o.w. remove the legal team -- or attorney general barr has and they've been blocked from doing that by a judge, but i think it's -- i've had this arguments with people. maybe try to do this by executive order. he could end up doing something that the court has orderers him not to do, and i think then you're in like the definition of a constitutional crisis. that's the definition of a constitutional crisis. and the -- what does the court do? i say in my book the court

doesn't have an army or anything. they rely on their own credibility and authority for the other people in the government and the executive and congressional branches, to enact and conform with their opinions. so what happens when that stops? and i'veed a and people. what does john roberts do about this? roberts is a very political chief justice, the trying to make the court seem less political he is making himself seem way more political. n't dough know how they would respond but does that actually -- if they were to do that -- i've been assured by some people that the administration never do that. we've said that lot about things. so, with that increased pressure on nancy pelosi to move toward impeachment if you have the president of the united states defying the supreme court. maybe it won't happen. but this is -- we're in really

tricky territory here, and all the norms are out the window. so, what we think is normal and what we think people will do, you can't counsel on that anymore. so, i think it's a huge and big issue we're watching really closety at the "times," that's for sure. >> john. >> is there anything that president obama could have reasonably done to play harder ball with mcconnell do get his nominee through. who president mcconnell have done with speaker obama's stuff? >> i think it's funny that joe biden, the other day said we should have -- the democrats, the democrats, should have ben more aggressive in pushing garland. he left out the fact he was the vice president at that time and he would also provided the -- i not critical or joe biden. i have known him and respected almost for years but he had provided the republicans with their main talking point by

giving a speech really long speech by the way, in set 92 urging clinton -- no, saying that the democrats -- that was an elect time -- that george h.w. bush shouldn't move ahead with a nominee this close to the elect but it was much closer to the election. think was june. certainly wasn't february. but that's the question. so, even joe biden now says we should have done more. what should they have done? and obama in the book was really kind of the most pessimistic about this because he had been dealing with mcconnell for six years, seven years, and gotten totally block bid mcconnell when they took the majority back, and he wasn't that optimistic himself. that's why they didn't want to go with the younger person with more future because they didn't want to see their rip pew addition destroyed, however i thought ron kline had a decent idea. move faster, but this point i kind of thing it would have

taken millions of people surrounding the capitol almost to get mcconnell to move. he just wasn't going to do it. the guy is super stubborn and very disciplined. i've watched him for decades now and he is one of the few people in press conference, you can't budge him. he wasn't going to do it. now did he think all these events would happen? no. he was in some ways protecting himself because he was in trouble conservatives were suspicious of mcconnell over the years, they think he's somebody who is a little too willing to cut a deal at a certain point so he wanted to do this to show those conservatives that he was willing to go to the wall for them, and if something happened and hill roe won he could say he did -- i did all i could. and -- but they never thought it would work out this way. look at what has happened? the supreme court would have

been flipped the other way. garland was on the bench you can also bet the gerrymandering decision of a few weeks ago would have been 5-4 the other way and that's what -- mcconnell and the republicans make interesting opinions but merritt garland, he looks moderate, sound moderate but does side with the government. his opinions are usually pro government, so he would have been just as a threat to them as some super liberal judge. the opinions kind of would have gone the same way. i the people around trump and don mcgone -- don mcgahn is determined to tear down the bureaucracy, and they didn't want anyone like garland in there because garland is a protecter of the bureaucracy and that's what this -- what they called this. inside their project. to get -- always going to be gore such followed by kavanaugh

stocker gorsuch. so the day gorsuch's hearing is in the hart building, big room and some of you may remember his mother was the head of the epa who got involved in a scandal, forced out of the job hard to leave town. he life disintegrated after that and gorsuch was up at same school kavanaugh was at, and i'm sure for a kid in high school, this was a really disorienting thing and in the book i talk about he went to his mother and said, how can you quit? you're being forced out. i would would you quit? you told me not to be a quitter. so the day of the hearing started, in the hearing room in the back with the white house guys who are shepherding him through and i said to him, i got a theory about gorsuch. and they go oh, what's senate i said he's still really mad about what happened to his mother and he wants to destroy washington. and they said, that's our theory, too. true story. wait.

>> it's happened before, supreme court justice has been impeached. there is any likelihood possible that impeachment of a supreme court justice could happen after the election? >> there are people, democrats who say, of course, they would like to impeach both gorsuch and kavanaugh because they're illegitimate. think kavanaugh gets more attention in that area. i don't see it. the process is the process. they went through the process. you might not be happy about the way it work or the way the republicans handled it or the outcome, but it would also require a republican senate and a 67-vote majority to impeach someone. don't see any of those numbers in future but you hear people talk about it and i say in the book that both of those guys will have an asterisk, a roger maris asterisk because of the way they got. in people real -- the democrats really think that

they got certainly the garland -- the scalia garland seat was stolen from them and these things linger for years. if you say something to republicans about the way they've handled this i go, what about bork? the democrats say what about garland? they just last forever these feudses, and i actually wasn't here the day of the actual vote on the last rules change which was on just the cut offering the debate to two hours but i watched later and mitch mcconnell there is with schumer and saying you started this. you started this. and that's what's going on in the senate which is also not doing anything else. there's no legislation going on. they're doing strictly nominations. don't want to have any voted. nothing happening. the institution is like almost becoming irrelevant except for nominations. >> carl, what's going won the --

>> the blue slip dish love the blue slip. people don't get it. this was this super old tradition in the senate, which like the filibuster, was really used food bad purposes them filibuster was used by dixiecrat to old up civil right legislation. at the time james eastland who no one has talk about for years except for joe biden talking bit him. he becomes chairman of the judicial area committee, ends forces the practice where lease not going to move any judges unless the senator from the home state sign off on this blue slip of paper. and that lets the dixiecrats -- they want to control who is in the federal judiciary in their states would that is who is imposing new rules. so that's goes on, some flexibility and joe biden ignored blue ships from some democratic senators but not

republican senators so stayness and this allows the republican, even when harry reid got rid of the filibuster on nominations to block a bunch of judges and there's a thing where trump talks about this all the time. when he is talking about judges and says, obama left us this gift,hundred judges. why didn't he fill them? what's lazy? they didn't fill those judgeships because the republicans blocked them with blue slips. so once the get any asked mitchell mitchell for a podcast. what but the blue ship? that's grassily others issue but i tell him my personal opinion is we need to get rid of the blue shep for appeals court judges. so on appeal court judges there's no longer a blue slip. this rolled democrats in karl, particularly on in ninth circuit because such a liberal suggester -- trump is trying remacthat so there's no break, no break on -- and either party. you can get anybody through and

you see it. every day they're doing nominees, democrats are screaming, wait, we just approved someone will won't say that brown versus the board of education wasn't correctly decided and that's the way its. >> one more question. i. >> one more. >> come on. >> in the unlikely event to that democrat wins the presidency and republicans hold the senate, and let's say clarence thomas leaves the court for some reason, are they going to -- >> mcconnell was asked this. there was more attention focuses on mcconnell saying he would consider a judge in 2020 does spoots saying previously let the people decide. this a whole separate issue and he was asked this. kind of an interesting answer. so, mcconnell saying there's a democratic president, republican

senate. can any supreme court not neil get through in and he said, well, you know, if it was early in the first year, be politically unsustainable to not have a hearing and a vote on someone. you'd have to have a here and vote but that mean they'd be confirmed. so, that was his quote. so you'd have the idea that there would be a hearing, vote, but could easily vote that person down. actually mcconnell -- he talk how there wouldn't be any vacancies on the liberal side. i like hid phrasing. without a significant life-ending event. you mean if somebody died? significant life-ending event. don't know any insignificant life-ending events. so this is going to go on for a long time, and it's a big problem and people up there know but there's very little they can do about it.

>> what if mitch mcconnell goes away. >> he's got an opponent and will have a gazillion dollars because mitch mcconnell is now nancy pelosi. nancy pelosi of the right. so they're going to make him a big target. but he's going do be running in kentucky on the same ticket with trump. trump is going to win kentucky by 30 points or something. mitch mcconnell is -- might not like him and i'm sure some of you don't but he knows how to winch that's what this guy has been doing for all the time he is here. her knows how to win because he is willing to do what i takes to win and doesn't care a what any of us or you think about him. thanks, guys. buy a book. [applause] >> if i can have everybody fold ifdown chairs.