do anything in her life, she needs a car and to function, to drive this car, she needs a man sunday on q&a, saudi arabia and women's rights activist talks about her book daring to drive, a saudi woman's awakening about her decision tochallenge the saudi government's ban on women drivers . >> to drive is an act of civil disobedience because a woman is not supposed to drive. we show that we are capable of driving and being in control of our own destiny by doing this act. >> what sunday at eight te eastern on trendlines you and day. >> nina olson will step down from that post tomorrow but before she does, she joins us

for one last visit. for viewers who haven't seen 0 one of your 20 appearances on the program since 2003, remind them what the national taxpayer advocate does the national taxpayer advocate is appointed by the secretary of treasury and serves in the internal revenue service and had the organization taxpayer advocate service to help taxpayers solve theirproblems with the irs and i'm charged with meeting making administrative recommendations to congress , to mitigate those problems and this is sort of in dispute resolution area and the complexity of the law and things like that. >> after 18 years, why are you stepping down? >> i reached a milestone birthday and want to have enough energy for the next phase of my life really 18 years is a long time . >> of your final projects has been to sketch out the complexity of the taxpayer system. we will show viewers a map here that your office has helped sketch out, why are you doing that??

>> we had had a roadmap as a teaching tool for my employees, a very high-level one. a chart for years and i really had been trying to think about how to map out the complexity of the tax system. so we started with some pieces of construction paper, colored construction paper and about four of us locked ourselves in a room and started moving things around and it ultimately led to what became a subway map and we were going to go to different stages of it but we were able to publish the paper one and i did have an interesting thing i kept telling people, we needed a roadmap and i realized this is gps generation, nobody had roadmaps anymore so we had to have an illustration of what a roadmap looks like. >> and there's a paper version of that roadmap you can get as an unfolding map

as well. here it is on the table, how do you wanttaxpayers to use this map . >> and mark. >> this paper versionalthough it's graphically interesting , it's the predecessor to something that is a digital roadmap but this roadmap lays out at a somewhat more detailed level the seven or eight stages of tax administration and i hope taxpayers can find themselves in the roadmap if they're under audit, what are their options? do they agree with the irs, do they want to appeal it, do they want to go to tax court? do they want to work out a payment plan? we've lifted payment options on it though there's all sorts of stuff. if you can track your way through, on the other hand what we're going to do with it next and i will be here for this but it's already underway is this roadmap forms the basis for a digital roadmap and eventually, they will be able to go to our website taxpayer advocate and

if they get an irs notice regardless of where they are in that system , they get an irs notice and they will be the number of that notice into our digital roadmap and we will both be able to show yoyou where you are on the map but also tell you in plain english which is an art what that notice means, what best you need to take, where you need to get more information, get help and how did you get here with as much complexity or as much high-level as you want digitally . this is you know, the second step in getting the digital roadmap and the point is to empower taxpayers so that they know where they are in the system, they can claim their rights and get better results for themselves. >> if you have questions about the us tax system, if you had issues in dealing with the irs, now would be a great time to call in. phone lines are split up

regionally. in the eastern time zones, 202 748 800. nina olson, your national taxpayer advocate will be with us until 10 am this morning. d on the issue of complexity, how did it get to be so complex ? >> first of all, the tax law is complex and then taxpayers make mistakes so there's got to be processes to address them. i think what has added to a lot of complexity, particularly at the beginning of the tax system and that affects so many taxpayers is the advent of electronic filing and then all of the cyber security issues like identity theft and people trying to get fraudulent refunds and things like that, just testing the system and that it has added a number of steps that have really affected a lot of taxpayers,

slowed up there refunds and things like that . so maybe if we drawn is not 20 years ago there would have been a whole section of that map that didn't exist. today with electronics and digital filing, there's a whole section of identifying refund drawn that affects a lot of people who are actually legitimate 0taxpayers. in fact, for 2018 81 percent of tax returns that the irs rose had questionable returns a thought were fraudulent. they actually turned out to be legitimate. so that eight out of 10 were legitimate returns and somewhere in that roadmap in the return processing they were delayed and then trying to find out what's going on with their refund. >> your stepping down tomorrow but in the years to come you think it's going to get more complex?

>> yes, that's why it's important to have this digital tool so taxpayers can find their way because what we found is that if you don't know your way around the system, you won't get the right result . the irs won't get the information that you have that would let them be able to say you're the legitimate taxpayer. we can let your refund go out or maybe it will take months to find that out and taxpayers need their money so there's got to be a way to navigate the system. the other thing that's happening i think that is not good at all is that the irs is trying to push people to self service online and they always say well, your bank does this or amazondoes this or your airline does this and i keep sayingthe irs is not an airline. it is a bank. it is the tax agency and it can do terrible things to taxpayers and it's the most powerful creditor in the world . or in the united states, at

least . we need to be able to pick up the phone and talk to the taxpayers of the united states when they want to talk to us about their taxes. >> we will start new york, good morning. >> caller: good morning, i have two questions for nina. >> host: we're going to work on having nina olson, try that again one more time, go ahead with your question. >> caller: i have two questions for her and i'm going to hang up but my first question is, i'm a site coordinator and as you know, we use tax layer and each one is putting out a 1040 and they say it's up to the irs to put it on one page and my second question, we are sole proprietors andindependent d contractors . what should they do to reduce the risk of being put under an audit and i thank you for your time. gu>> guest: thank you for volunteering at a vita site.

vitasite's are volunteers who give up their time to help taxpayers by preparing their returns for free and they are throughout the country and many sites operate throughout the years because some people get extensions or some even do back years, past year returns and this is really, they are very dedicated people and weare so fortunate that people are willing to give up their time to do it . so the question, the irs gives them software to do. what happened with the 1040 this year is that the treasury department mandated that the irs redesign the iconic 1040 form. and they wanted to get it all on a postcard size sheet of paper, namely a half a sheet of an 8 and a half by 11 and what that ended up is that instead of having about two

pages, front and the back, we ended up with six schedules that were halfpage. some of ulthe schedules, schedule sex only had three or four lines on it so i've tried to figure out how many trees we have destroyed in just printing out copies of returns, even if you file digitally but what happens with your software is if you have your 1040, just a simple page, it's going to print out half on one page and half on another page. the irs didn't have anything to say about it, they were told they had to do it and they follow the instructions. they do have another draft out now for this coming year because preparers and taxpayers complain so much about the fact that it was very confusing. the information just moves from one page to another, it doesn't flow like the 1040 does and it just wastes a lot of paper and preparers in particular foundit very

disturbing . so they've now moved to the y'iconic 1040 has three quarters of the page. there's still a corner of the page that's blank so who knows? maybe in another five years we will go back to a full page 1040 because it makes a lot of sense. i've been going through my files and i did come up with a 1040 revision from 2005 where the 1040 had gotten so cram packed that the type was so small and we didn't have room to put anything else on and the irs has proposed creating one schedule oh and moving things onto that but that never got anywhere so i said that often people to say see this? this was a good idea so we will see. >> host: the colors other question was about sole proprietor of small businesses, what can they do to reduce their risk of being audited?

>> guest: they have to be careful about travel and entertainment expenses. they need to have documentation and they need to keep their documentation. the other thing they need to have is if they use their travel expenses like an automobile, they need to have contemporaneous records. they need to keep track of the business purpose for their travel and the mileage because otherwise that will be disallowed and the other thing i would say is there are people out there who say you're self-employed, you can write this off, write that off. use common sense. you cannot write your children off. you cannot write your dog off. don't try to write personal expenses off through a sole proprietorship because as i always say, live your life thinking that you don't want the irs to come in because i represent taxpayers for 20 years before i became the national taxpayer advocate and i've seen it over 4

million cases as the national taxpayeradvocate in my organization since i became it and the irs enters your life at the absolute worst time. it will find you when you are down . that's just what happened. so just don't test it. >> host: rapid city south ci dakota, good morning. >> caller: good morning. i've been paying taxes i guess since i was 17. i had a job right away, started doing my own taxes, my dad showed me how to doit, it was simple back then. throughout my life , sometimes 71 now. asi learned how to do my own taxes and that was when i was buying a house and i got children and when i got another age, i think okay, i'm doing my own taxes, i'm doing it right, nobody's auditing me, i keep doing it that same way. last year , take that idiot

mnuchin to take something that's good and break it but what i'm doing, okay, so i do all these things and my job has changed a little bit and i'm not on the road as much as i used to be so i don't have as many expenses as i used a half. out of those whatever, 40 something years i was audited once and that was when i had a home office in my house. but i was keeping supplies to those and selling brochures and sthey wouldn't let me have it . >> what was the concern last year? >> caller: last year, it was totally different. it was totally different. i hadthree pages , roughly. three pages i had to do. and i was trying to figure it out so i thought why don't i go down to one of these tax preparers. they wanted hundred $50 to do three pages.

so i said to heck with that. that's like going to the hospital and they're charging 5000. i'm not going to do that. >> so you're discussing, you're describing basically a lot of taxpayers experiences with the new form. and i think that's why they're making some changes this year, not enough i believe they should have left the basic 1040 alone. and it just created a similar form for people who have plain-vanilla taxes and just left it at that and made that a postcard for those people. there are about 30 percent of the us taxpayers can fill out that postcard type return, but for the 70 percent, the rest of the taxpayers, they had experiences like what you are describing. the other thing i'd say about the home office deduction is one of the things that my

office recommended and i'm glad to see that the irs created only recently was a standard deduction for an office in a home. so instead of having to fill out a very public inform, you can if you just a standard deduction which is based on square footage or something, then that minimizes the likelihood of you being audited. it may not give you if you contract every single penny as much of a deduction but it also gives you security and it's really a safe arbor and i thought that was a very helpful thing for taxpayers because when they start tracking the details, they get it wrong or they have to go to a preparer and pay that amount of money and i applaud you for trying todo your own taxes . it's a painful process, i inknow. >> host: fernandina beach florida, richard, good morning. >> caller: my question is about the presidents tax

returns. he refuses to disclose them. because he's under audit. my question is is that a valid argument, how long can we use that argument and why can't we go back to like 2012, 2013 and get his tax returns. i'll take this call off the air. >> i can't comment on that because it is under active litigation and i think that your questions are in fact exactly what the courts are going to determine. the law to me is very clear that the chairman of the ways and means committee and the chairman of the senate finance committee have the ability to ask for any taxpayers tax returns. the irs barred by law, we have to guard the confidentiality of taxpayer and tax return information. and there are civil and

criminal penalties for violating the confidentiality. the law also has lots of exceptions and the exception for the chairman, chair people of the ways and means and senate finance committee to get anybody's tax return is one of those exceptions and it has beenhonored in the past and so the issues that are at play now , dealing with the role of the president and the president's tax returns are before the courts and i think we just all have to pay attention and see what the courts they. >> gets the next national taxpayer advocate. >> is the secretary of the treasury in consultation with the commissioner of the internal revenue service and the irs oversight board and right now there is no irs oversight board operating so it would be in consultation with the commissioner and they have not chosen my successor yet. >> host: you have concerns about whether that personwill be independence ? >> i'm always concerned about that. that is, i also have a lot of confidence in my organization. i think able see me as a spokesperson for the organization they forget

there's 1600 employees behind there and a senior leadership team who make my job able to be able to do my job.they will continue to do their job . when i walk up the door tomorrow. and i also think, i've said this. i've met with members of congress and i've said this to the commissioner and anyone who would listen that congress created this position . >> .. certainly the taxpayers and representatives of taxpayers will have something to say about that.s if that is something we go through to remind people about the need for independence in this decision and that's something we have to go to. >> host: how often did congress and the irs commissioner listen

to you over the years? was a rare thing or happen often connect. >> guest: i meet with members of congress all the time and testified before congress over 60 times during my tenure. just recently with the legislative recommendations up until aboutut earlier this yeare had about 16 or so of our legislative recommendations enacted into law but on july 1 congress passed and the president signed the taxpayer first act and that is an incredibly important piece of legislation containing taxpayer rights. i've tracked about 16 or 17 ofe our recommendations finding their form in one way or another in that piece of legislation. we worked closely with both the ways and means and senate finance committee staff and what is important isay it important about taxpayer rights legislation in this polarizing a partisan time taxpayer rights is a unifying issue and it's nonpartisan so this was a bipartisan bill in the house and

the senate and the public in and democratic staff worked closely together to get this bill through. you sought can do with a strong vote. now, the commissioner listens to me whether he or she wants to or not. i have a direct report and see the commissioner regularlyee and when i talk to him i say i need to talk to you. i shoot out e-mails all the time and member of the senior executive team so they have to listen to me. sometimes they agree and a lot of times they probably find it recently people have been saying i've learned so much from you and thank you for your service and i'm thinking why didn't you listen to me 12 years ago when i raise this issue but you know, it's very important to be inside the irs because so much happens that does not get public and so much happens that you can get stopped

before it you know, really hits the public and that is critical. what you hear just walking the hallways is incredibly important. >> host: we have about 30 minutes left with your national taxpayer advocates. steve has been waiting in arizona. good morning. >> caller: good morning.ev i have a couple of questions. i would like to know -- [audio difficulties] >> host: you are going in and out but try that one more time. >> caller: i'm having problems with my little phone. my question is about taxpayer rights. i have a few questions and i caa hear the repeat in the phone. >> host: go ahead and say your one question. >> caller: like when a person does the 1099 on themselves that makes them responsible for their

half of their taxes from their employer, is that correct? >> guest: yes, you're responsible for the employer and employee sharemp of the social security and medicare taxes. >> host: we lost steve but he got his questioning. in that he in indianapolis, apindiana. >> caller: i have two questions. one is related while they're both related to filing your taxes late. i've had a lot of things happen in my life for the last several years which caused me to be late in getting the filing done and when i started getting this done a taxpayer advocate was i helpfl a few years ago because the issue then was i had filed three years from the time it was due to claim the refund and all of mine have been refunds and i filed and there was the

emancipation day and i forget the other but the holidays beyond the deadline of april 15. i filed and he wasas after the 15th of the year three years happened and before that final date. the irs would not release the refund because they said i had filed too late. a taxpayer advocate was helpful and i shared the booklet that with the actual date and so on and same thing is happening again unfortunately for me and i wanted an explanation on how that works with those dates and what i can do to avoid it. i sent a document with my return this time with the booklet and so forth to explain it but it still happened. i had no idea until i was like why don't i have it yet and got a hold of the advocates office and whwh unfortunately they never

returned my calls and i faxed -- >> host: thank you for the call. >> guest: first of all, the days are screwy because washington dc does have emancipation day and the way the law reads is the due date is based on whether there is a federal holiday in the district of columbia. sometimes it hits on the 15th or the weekend and it's the first monday but first mondayr but it emancipation date that is the next day and then one year the irs some systems went down on the last day of filing so they added an extra day just administratively because you literally cannot file. even if you are trying to file electronically you could not lyfile. it sounds like your filing on paper and if you're filing on paper one thing i would do and it's a drag but i would really do this. file it with certified mail

return receiver requested.ma so that you have proof of your mailing, not just a postmark but that you're holding that receipts that says you mailed it on that date and just using a postal meter will be accepted or and then you have the green card coming back from the irs saying they received it and someone has signed it in case they want to argue they did not receive it. i think what you have to do is prove with tax returns it's the date you mailed it t that counts as if it were received by the irs on that day. if you timely and mail it. if you don't mail it by the due date and mail it the day after then it's whenever the irs receives it and we call that the mailbox rule. i would encourage you to look online at taxpayer advocate .-dot irs .gov andat get -- i don't know which office you're

advocate service is on but look at the phone number for the main office that you are in which we go to the secretary generally for the local taxpayer advocate her and said you not received a response from your case r advocate. that way that might prompt response. people are swamped right now because earlier i was talking about refund fraud and our cases dealing with taxpayers whose refunds have been held up filing season has gone skyrocketed through the roof and it's been my people areoo it's almost whak a mole dealing with one issue right here and another issue pops up and then we deal with another one and so we've not been as good about getting back to people as quickly as we want. >> host: is it that more of that product is happening or more people know what the taxpayer advocate -- b2 it's more that the irs is freezing many more returns and not able to get

through them quickly enough. taxpayers then get desperate and then they get to the taxpayer and often it's the irs sending it after a certain amount of time t and so we are really tryg to get through these cases and get these refunds released but it's just a deluge on us right now. y >> host: if you want to join the conversation in the last 25 minutes the spring (202)748-800l time does, there 202748 ###-800n pennsylvania. good morning. >> caller: good morning. my filing status for 2019 has changed from filing jointly to filing single and i'm trying to get forms applicable to the tax year 2019 such as publication 17 qualified dividends and capital gains, social security and taxable and i have. [audio difficulties]

i'm guessing right now and when are those forms available? >> guest: for 2019 the forms usually are not available until october or so and maybe even not until later in the year. the irs will go through and i'm not sure there have been major changes so you could look at the 2018th forms in the standard deduction may increase a little bit by inflation adjustments and you could also look at the form 1040 .-dot -- es and that is the estimated tax form and that -- where you're supposed to pay taxes incrementally if you have investments or self-employed attacks but there is a worksheet on that form with rates schedules and that is what you could use and it's for 2019 and so it's a ballpark but you could use that to try to figure out where you are in the process.

maybe by patching together 2018 publication 17 and using the 1040 es for 2019 you get to a good enough answer and look for the answers around the end of the year.d i'm hoping that congress will do some technical corrections before the end of the year. this is the first year with the t cja tax cuts and jobs act changes and we are seeing things that need to be tweaked a little bit and i'm hoping congress will do those weeks before the end of thebe year that's another reason irs will wait to see if there are any vegetative changes last minute.ti it usually does happen unfortunately. >> host: steven in new york, good morning. >> caller: hello. i see the website tax app at irs .gov -- [audio difficulties]

>> host: is being what? >> caller: being discontinued. it says attention irs tax map will no longer be updated after october 25, 2019. they will still have -- [audio difficulties] >> host: we are losing you. >> guest: i don't know what to irs tax map is. i don't think that's my product. ours is the roadmap available through the taxpayer advocate .-dot irs .gov. i'm not sure what that is and i know the irs has had and maybe they decided our map was so much better that they did not need their map. i will go back and check on that but i really don't know and thank you for driving to my attention. >> host: grant here in washington dc, go ahead. >> caller: for the past ten years of trying to get a straight answer from the irsrs n whether it's legal to make tax-deductible donations to illegal israeli settlements.

in 2010 i got commissioner on the phone live on npr and he totally dodged answering the questions and i paid up to a thousand dollars to get an official irs ruling on whether it's legal to deduct charitable lentributions to west bank settlements and brs seems to be part of a problem. even recently changed its 990 forms to omit [inaudible] and from my end it looks like the irs. [audio difficulties] maybe this could be your last mission to get accountability at the irs. >> guest: i'm not familiar with that issue specifically but i can say in order for you in the u.s. tax system to get to be

able to write off a deduction as a charitable contribution the charity needs to be 501 c-3 organization and it means it needs to come into the irs and fill out a form 1023 which is an application for tax-exempt status and get a determination letter from the irs that says that this is a charity for scientific educational, you know, charitable purposes -- >> we leave this program now for live coverage of the u.s. senate and are minor you can watch this in any c-span program online at c-span .org. u.s. senate returning from their party caucus meetings with more work this afternoon expected on judicial and executive nominations. both of those nominees coming up at 2:45 p.m. eastern today. now to live senate coverage here on the semantic. the presiding officer: the

senate will be in session. cloture having been invoked. the clerk will report the nomination. the clerk: the judiciary, james wesley hendrix to be united states district judge for the northern district of texas. a senator: madam president. the presiding officer: the senator from arizona. mrs. mcsally: i rise today to give my maiden speech as the 14th senator of the state of arizona. it is an honor and humbling to be appointed to