because really, that ability to listen and understand, it's a fundamental aspect that is openly going to make you a success or a failure to watch the rest of the interview what visit our website at book tv .org. click on the afterwards tab. >> weapon to boswell book company at state 3767 being in business. [applause] it's for tonight speaker is vern branigan required, the buddy in public radio. she is also a producer and a contributor to wisconsin public radio's to the best of our knowledge. she now conducts media training

and national media outreach at the university of wisconsin madison. her new book outspoken by women's voices get silenced and how to set them free has won praise from places like august reviews who offered this take in the review. records own voices and encourage and support of interval. it's hard to imagine anyone who would benefit from her advice. in the seat of self-help books for women, this one stands out both his unique perspective and its concrete recommendations. with that please give a hand or her. >> veronica rueckert: thank you so much. i'm going to admit i forgot to get my book. i'll do that in the beginning so i won't have to do that later. if you are heading doubt, [applause] if you ever had any doubt that the voice is an

instrument, you have it now, well. that was all of the rings and instruments playing together. that was incredible. i want to say welcome and thank you so much for coming out tonight and huge thank you to basel books. two daniel: for having me here and i'm delighted to be here gathering together in a space listening to voices and talking about voices. is something that means a lot to me and i am very grateful that you are here and you care about voices two. i'm grateful for your interest. an outspoken as well. my hope is it challenges you and inspires you and that it kinda shakes things up for you. in terms of what you think is possible in the world and what you're capable of doing with your own voice. now i want to start tonight by asking you a question that i ask at all of my voice workshops. if you sort of know what i am looking for, don't answer at the

way i want you to answer it, answer what you really feel. so the question is, how many of you here love your voice customer. [inaudible conversation] i see five -ish. good. sometimes people raise their hands most of you did it. this is a fairly big group percentagewise hardly anybody raise their hands. that is normally what i usually see in that number is usually very high. usually nobody raises their hands. especially with the group of women i work with, i would ask a question nobody would raise her hand. when i asked fundable mental question do you love your voice. and i thought okay well, i think they have a troubled relationship with her voice. then i started to ask about it every talks. there would be 200 people or there would be 100 women or

students in other words students with the best group for raising their hands. still not great. hardly anybody raise her hands and to me that bothered me. by the way men are a little more likely to raise her hands although i didn't see anyone or maybe one person tonight. especially with women, is so important, truth everyone but i care a lot about women's voices because they face many challenges. it's important because the voices who we are, it's where we grew up. it is the way our parent sounded around the kitchen table. it's the reason of the country we live in. it's how we feel about ourselv ourselves. it's how much respect we give our own ideas. in opinions and feelings because the voices are special. it takes all of these things and it sends them sailing out into the world. that's what the boy says. the voices you. i believe that the voice is a

truer reflection of who we are in almost any other measure. is that important. i think what we need to do is sort of reject this relationship. we need to rewire it so we can start to lumber voice. for most of us, it's an instrument. it's how you communicate and it's how you convince and convey yourself, all of that is true. it is still an instrument. it's an incredible instrument and so i see it as having a state-of-the-art rra in your garage. whether you do it that, you drive trying miles an hour around the block once a day. i think that's how most of us treat our voices instead of his incredible instrument that we can really sink into and learn about and love and uses a tool that can change your life. what i want to help you do and i hope you leave tonight i am going to start playing around with my voice and get tonight. i'm going to get to learn a

little bit about how to change what i do with it. so this is easy. it's not easy. i start by saying no is not easy. especially for women. there are lots of reasons to feel like we shouldn't talk. that we are being marginalized when we do speak. if you think you feel this, if you're not someone is not good at talking, you might be wrong about that because there is this growing body of data that shows there are very real ways that women's voices are marginalized. i'm going to tell you and share a fraction of the research with you. and by the way, there is a pretty huge body of research. i'm just going to share a little bit. we'd all be crying by the end of my shirt at all. i do want to share a little bit of it. annual study, hypothetical women ceos, were rated in terms of

competency down 14 percent, when they talked more than their peers. this is respondents who said if a woman ceo talks more she is los common, but it. those same response were asked about a male ceo if he talks more than his peers, when you think happened to his competen competency? give it up. it went by 10 percent. so we see that if a woman in a place of power, talks more often, people thanks she's los confidence. that's a pretty strong reason not to talk because we internalize those reasons. i'm talking more and i'm getting a strange feeling that my voice is welcome. you might be right. it may not be or that's one example. this one really, check out the with a lot because it's still sort of like a punch to the gut to me. northwestern university law. as for this one is from. they wanted to know if having a

lot of power for women meant they were immune to a lot of the stuff to the voices being interrupted and disrespected. you're the van. women on the court, women supreme court justices were interrupted three times the rate of male justices. three times. women on the us supreme court. so there was no immunity there, power does not make a woman immune when she speaks. so even these women on the cou court. this is really interesting. we think happened over the course of time when a woman is on the court. what these researchers found was that the women adapted. they began by using sentences that catch things a little more lightly or politely. they would say excuse me i would like to ask and thank you mr

mr. so-and-so. things like that. into these oral arguments. so what happened was they learn to do things differently. now they get in there and just jumped in there and they just interrupt. they are her more often but there is a learning curve there. there is a long time during which their voices are suppressed by these interactions. we don't get the unique contributions of these brilliant legal minds because are not allowed to speak the same way men are allowed speak. hopefully, as the court changes and we see more women on the part of this will change two and a cultural will be more friendly to the women's voices. maybe women will have to speak like men to be heard. but right now that's where things stand on supreme court. women get interrupted in general. more than men get interrupted and they get interrupted both by women and by men. it's both there.

how many of you seen the money may be frozen. did you love it. i love this movie. my daughter is here, we all loved it we know all of the songs, i was feeling really good about that. so maybe i can get behind. it's a princess power movie about two women who learn that the love between sisters is more important than any guy. for the love interest in the movie yes there are but it turns out the relationship between sisters is what is important. as i was researching. i learned that even in frozen, the men talk more. men have more lines in a movie than women have. [laughter] of course i stop saying the song every week and i am seeing them again. still we can do better. this is a version that young women see. our children see an generation grows up saying men talk might more than women.

almost every kid watches these movies. frozen is not unique. there is more there. it is troubling. that's just the beginning. that is an overview of what is out there. many more examples in the book, i keep watching for it. this is a growing field of study. i don't tell you this to depress you but so you know you're not crazy, it is out there and you feel lee's feelings and maybe your voice is being marginalized or is not being heard or your at a meeting. and you have an idea, and you voice it, nobody says anything. you think maybe okay maybe that wasn't a great idea. then, steve setting two people away from you says the idea and everyone says steve that's an amazing idea. has that happened anyone else here. yes. what just happened here.

you're not crazy. that stuff is happening for real and we are starting to measure it. hopefully steve will pick up on that to and realize that they are part of the picture and we want to bring the men along with this. the world needs everybody's voice it is really a part now. we are waking up to that. finally. i hope this book along with building that awareness for you, i hope this is a book also helps you feel los alone. there are a lot of fans in here. i ask if you had that experience. a lot of people have had that experience. so part of this is sharing of the storytelling. i've heard so many short stories as i read this book. a lot of us did it made me feel los alone to an the things i have experience in life and my career. i want to share of them with you. it's about a woman named audrey who was watching the great recession unfold.

she was in a different career and she thought she had this gut level calling that i should be helping, i can do this. have you ever had that feeling when you see something and you know that you have to get in there and help. so she did it to a back to school and she got a different degree and she got her masters and she became in a major midwest city and she showed up with an all-male team at a bank that they were going to be working with. the bank president walked in. he had phone like this and he held it in the air and he said, the tax return, who was the first go with it? and henri was super up for this and of course she raised her hand is why she was here when she got this degree. the bank president paused cold and he looked at her and in front of the room and front of all these people, he said sweetheart you don't know how.

she was livid. he said her face went up in searing flames. she didn't say anything though. she just let it go. later she told her boss. she said this thing happened and i'm not happy with it. that's just that guy, he's from the south. like being from the south explains anything like that. but i renew to that the same president, he was younger than she was. he was los educated, she had more degrees than he had. that was her introduction in the field of bank regulation. she thought okay, that was unpleasant that i hope that that was a one and done thing. but it wasn't. it ended up being normal and regulation. she said she always felt like she was on the outside.

she realized when she would go and work at the national level that women's voices work her. she told me a story about an older woman who had been in the field walker. the woman simply stopped going to meetings. she simply stopped cold because no one ever listen to her. no one ever seemed to notice. she just kept going. audrey herself had a different technique. she would ask mel kelly to put her ideas on the table for her. i said, wouldn't you just ask if they would help support you when you put the out the idea out there. she just threw her back and back and laughed. she just laughed. she said they would never do it. looking back now, i said well let's go back to that bank president. what would have you done differently. she didn't posit second. she said i would've blown up the room. she said it's hard work and it's extra work and it comes with emotional cost but that's what you have to do.

over and over again. you have to blow up the room. that was her solution. she didn't do it then but she's not a shy person, she's an incredible story teller and she is incredibly ambitious. even though she was very successful in this field, she left it. that's one of the hidden costs of this kind of marginalizing a women's voices. we lose talent, we lose people who just give up and they think this is not the place for me. i'm not welcome here and we lose talent. we lose that passion and we lose that expertise and we lose the diversity of voices. there is good news about operate. she is writing herself for a political run. she comes from political stock and i expect any time the next couple of years, going to be selling her name on the ballot so i'm excited about that. so i hope that you take some of the stories and outspoken and share them. you share them with your friends and your colleagues and talk about what they mean to you and

your experiences. we are just kind of pulling the lid off this thing out. have you noticed around women's communications. does everyone know the word man's living. my husband knows it. it's good to know, good to have these feelings. these squares to share them. man spreading. man procreation. these are tongue-in-cheek words. they're kind of funny. it also gives us an experience that is shared. it there is something kind of magical when we have words to something. instead of just walking away walking away feeling icky. you could say that's what happened, thousands of other women know what that means. they feel it too. so i'm not alone. there is power in the naming

things and there is power in storytelling and i hope that you will go out and do both of those things as you get more and more empowered to use your voice. so really that using your voice is what my book is about. i want you to learn to love your voice and to use your voice. it's not easy. it's a journey. i hate it whenever anybody says, is a journey because it implies there's lots of work and it just makes me want to plop down on my couch again. i just wanted to be easy but it's not and it's unruly. there's a pulling of the will in a different direction and thinking about her voices. in terms of how we start, we can start by learning about the voice. how it works. how many of you here have ever had any training either singing or even yoga where you work a lot with the breath? that's a good group of you.

that gives you a foundation with working on the voice and is something i had and i wouldn't trade it for anything. it's so incredibly valuable. i start the first two chapters of the book learning how the physiology of the voice works. because is the only instrument think about this, is the only instrument that sows in your body. that makes it kind of mysterious and we really don't know what's going on in there. we know we have a throat, it also makes it personal. when someone criticizes your voice, it's very personal because as part of your body and that's a natural reaction. it also makes it hard to talk about. it's right there. someone is looking at your hair and commenting about it. think about this, the last election, how many advocates to be hear leveled at female politicians voices. our women in the media on the

radio, so much free advice or thoughts. [laughter] given about the way a woman's voice sounds. people will say the voices shrill is a favorite one. there was a pundit when back to likened hillary clinton's voice to an ice picking your ear. all of this is okay to say. i'm not sure why. sorry personal. but we still have that vestige will we get uncomfortable when we speak in public. there is a long there about why. why do we feel that way. long history. aristotle, as a quote, silence is the glory of woman but if not equal the glory man. so women are glorious and apparently cute but men get to speak and that is their glory. king mayor says he's talking

about his daughter cornelia. he says her voice is ever soft it and low. an excellent thing in women. women have these expectations to be quiet and soft and low. maybe to be silent totally. we still have that period is still great. we may not feel it, it's not something we talk about explicitly but when you hear this applicant shrill harsh grading i speak in your ear, that's essentially what you are hearing. we don't have that same kind of conversation about men's voices. if you look at the last election, you and hillary clinton his voice was torn apart in pieces about why we hate her voice, her adjectives every day, you had bernie sanders and donald trump with these incredibly tattered nasal unpleasant voices. [laughter] made you want to

reach for a glass of water and gulp it down. her clear throat. there was anything about that, did matter. if you look at our class, the radio host, he really turned around the way radio voices sound. he's a man. he is local site whose housing and resonates his voice right through his nose. but no one cares because apparently is very good in his job yes, he has this brilliant radio show but also he is a man. the women i know are still daily on twitter talking about the rebuke they get about the voices from listeners. as far as local site, does everyone know what vocal fry is question mark vocal fry is a method of local production which is currently popular with young women. a lot of people think it originated in england with affluent aldermen but now it's been popularized here among young women who are frequently

in vocal changes. it supposed to sound like bacon sputtering in a pan and exam. so it sounds slow and low. it's like that. it's really just kind of lowering of the voice, and gives sort of an air of nonchalance as well. there's something interesting about that. so over to generation seemed to almost gyp you formally hate that. radio host is from npr, she finds it unlovely and can't stand it and she tries to coach people that she interviews out of that. the younger generations of women, there is research that shows younger generations of women here that and you and they say. they hear power. in self-assurance. so there is this generational divide. so who is in charge of hiring. as usually older people, people who are late in their career and are often men. this is a very difficult thing

for young women. i've had people tell me more than once that they literally subtract points when they hear vocal fry. it's a strong option. strong reaction to the voice. it's okay as long as we are aware of these reactions and where they are coming from and how if we are having one of these negative reactions, i feel like this person is los capable because there voice sounds like wax wires e. you need start pushing back against that. ourselves. that's not okay, that's a forum of bias and i'm going to listen to how this person's ideas are formed, the contents of their mind, their answers, that's what's important. to make people at the organization aware as well. younger women have enough going against them. there's a lot of pressure we need to help them move beyond some of these things and be aware. not lean into some of these biases we have.

so in thinking again about how to use the voice. it begins with the breath in the breath is nearly seated in the lower abdomen. this is where these deep nursing breaths come from the help support her voice and gives residence. the breath helps calm anxiety, literally it helps you. your voice gets very high when you get anxious. but if i sink into a lower breath there is evidence of actually columns are princesses. nervous system. we can move from maybe a light or fight stage and to a state of calmness. this is working with our belly breaths. but there is a problem, what happens to women and what we've been told when we were maybe five years old about her belly. second in right. second in. it's really hard zero my gosh.

it's so hard to forget that one. it's something we need to causally remind ourselves. take a deep breath but my belly actually has to expand and when i work with women, human workshops and classes, it's often really difficult and they are usually a few women in this workshop who literally cannot knowingly breathe in deeply that our belly extends. if you blow air into a balloon, he gets bigger the same thing with our belly. her belly gets bigger because we are so used to not doing that, we always try to suck it in. it's really hard to breathe. then you compounded with the fact that women to do not take up a lot of space. we tend to go into something i call the lady vessel. his crossing legs and crossing arms. if you look for women online,

believe me, i looked online and it is so hard to find women who are in kind of a slot soft stances lesser models. i think that's one thing we can all work on. since were not too crowded here let's try it. everyone to feel this. can cross your legs, nice tight leg cross and then cross your arms, as tight as you can, and now try to take one of these deep low belly breaths. that's from here. from the seat of power. is a kind heart? it's kind heart is new. okay now, and cross your arms and uncrossed her legs, maybe your knees are a few inches apart, shoulders rolled back just as expanded, now type try to take a nice slow breath.

how does that feel. better. better right so we have to get our selves permission with our bodies to take up space. winning we give ourselves permission of the body, there's voice. it's really hard to feel like you are commending the room where even commanding yourself in that space when you're in this little tiny footprint that is making it hard for you to breathe. then, on top of that, a lot of us here and i'm going to ask for a show of hands that i want to do that to you. military grade underground garments. that really second in. they make it hard to breathe. so imagine this, this is where a lot of women are up against. we are in these press molds, we are feeling like our voices have been marginalized and we are wearing incredibly aggressive shape wear.

does that not sound like a losing scenario. it's hard and then we want to come in and use voices that are strong and confident and we want to bring the power that we feel inside out. with this scenario, it's really difficult so short of telling you to burn your spanks or to burn your shape wear, was i still think would be okay by the way you have my support to do this. to at least not wear them on days when you need to speak. especially public speaking days. days when his fortune that you feel really at home in your bo body, calm in your mind, and ready to stand up against whatever it is ready to come against you. give your voice all the supported needs. your voice needs a lot of support. there's a lot of stuff coming in our voices that is marginalized so is important to do what you can to support your vocal instrument. really get out there and share what you have inside.

at the end of the day that's really what it's about, becoming at home in your bodies as a place that is the seat of your voice. the seat of so much more that you are. all those begs the question do i have to change my voice. people ask me this, do i have to change my voice. the answer is no. of course you don't have to change your voice. i am also working with the voice. so that it reflects who you are on the inside. so a lot of times women come to me in their professional women, they may be partners in law firms, they may be doctors giving speeches, hip talks, all of these things and they are pretty high up in their careers. they say i get great year reviews when i speak but i feel crappy afterwards. it's not like i'm at home doing it.

that's because there is not this alignment of who we really are inside and how are voice conveys that. so either, often is the case that either a person feels a lot of power and a lot of insurance but when it comes time to talk, the voice sounds very different. they're confused by that. what is going on here that my voice doesn't reflect the power that i have. then we work to align those things. sometimes that does mean changing the voice. working with the voice i carried that power a little better and more strong. more strength. sometimes, they may mean something different that they are not letting themselves see themselves. so in the past women in the past have been had to be very careful and what that meant was when they spoke, they couldn't be too emotional because that was read as hysterical. no one was a hysterical leader

so women had to be really panned down with emotions. that was a critique, leveled against women for a long time or if they were to flats with the voice and people would say they didn't care and they were invested and they were passionate. people get they are the ones who have the license to do it all. they speak in this column and stern tones and as a leader sounded like. or incredibly thunder type of voices and that was considered inspiring. women didn't have those options. so they just had these very carefully undulated voices that didn't have a lot of characteristics that caught the year. and so a lot of times these women come to me and they say, i don't feel right is because none of who they are has been allowed to be expressed in the voice. so the case, we want them to sound like themselves. because we really don't feel good until we sound like

ourselves and we feel like ourselves and we share some of who we are in her voice. so there's a way in which you might want to change your voice. just like an athlete trains for a race, a swimmer might work out with free weights, to change the body. we can do the same thing with the boys. it's your choice. it's always absolutely your choice. to work with your voice the way you would like to but the important thing to do, is to use the voice and to start speaking and if you are someone who tends to hang back a little and not really go into the spaces, i challenge you to do that. or if you're in a space where it's a male voice that's dominating, or going first, every time. see what it's like if you are the first one this piece of the meeting or if you are the woman in the room to raise your hand and volunteering yourself. these are things that we can all do to push ourselves and move into the spaces to know that

it's resistance is out there. to speak anyway. check time i think i can do a quick reading from the book. no i can't. [laughter] but i would love to hear questions and we can wrap up. with that. yes. >> i've read research that shows that these will start to cry at the hearing of the mothers voices. they will cry. a beast. should women be confident and add emotionality to them. everyone. have you experienced being silence.

so the first question was about the importance of mothers in particular about modeling voices that are heard in important the next generation. and for everyone. the question was about me and with the right reasons. started thinking consciously about i do speak -- even friends who say i'd rather not talk if i don't have to. and i understand that, and it's perfectly fine to be an introvert. nothing wrong with that. but it's important.

just as you said, to model this, and to push ourselves into these spaces. we have an obligation to use our voices. so, yeah, we do have to honor ourselves but i also think, yeah, this is the opinion, this is a time. do you feel it? this is the time. feel that we're waking up to this power of women's voices and other marginalized voices and helping one another as we go along, bring our voices and we can support each other and change it. and to answer your question, have i been silented? sure. i've had these experiences. not so much with writing but i've been at meetings where i have an idea and no one says anything and then tent minutes later someone else says the idea and they're clapped on the back and given a promotion or something like that. you wonder what is going on? i wish i had nope more of this then earlier in my career when that kind of thing its more

damaging. but we can change that now. we have the power to change it together. >> how would you blow up a room? >> how would you blow up a room? i wish that audrey was here and you would go, oh, that's how. she has -- it's personal. i'm not saying that audrey's story blowing up the room has happened is the one solution there other solutions and i talk with other women who have handled this differently but she would have said, of course i know what i'm doing. just came from my degree, i'm prepared for this, i have years of experience, and i know what i'm doing. you can't talk to me like that. so that's a direct callout. you check the behavior. like a hip check in hockey. like, nope, that's not okay.

it's not my job. i if you're uncomfortable, i'm sorry but i need to check this behavior right now so you don't do it again. and hopefully everyone else sees that wasn't okay. we don't get to talk to anybody like this, and here's what happens if you do. i imagine it would be easier to it today than it would have been when she experienced. that. we're all learning as we go along and might be blow up the room is right for audrey and you but might not be right for someone else but the important thing is to not internalize this, and walk away with the collapsed feeling of shame but to take some kind of action. maybe an e-mail afterwards or maybe it's pulling him aside and say you know what you said to me? that wasn't okay, i don't like it and you can't ever talk to me like that again. myriad options but the important thing is to address the behavior so you're not walking away with a feeling of failure.

and helping other women, the next bank regulator who comes along who is a woman. >> i just wanted to pass on a couple of things i've heard other places win you talk but the underwear. i once heard the phrase punitive underwear. and i thought that says it exactly. >> that's beautiful. i love it. >> use it. and also on an npr interview i heard a woman -- i think it was on the ted talks where they do the interviews, and she suggested, before going into a meeting or doing something where you have to -- you know you're going to have to talk, two or three minutes before going into the meet, literally stand like wonder woman and she said, they've done tests on it. it makes a difference. just like you were saying. spread the body, and do the breaths. it makes a difference.

just two or three minutes. >> i'm glad you brought that up. referencing work in which hwa she sauls power post steurs. if you as a woman assume a super hero posture, like this, that you will -- so her research showed at the time that there was increased testosterone and capacity for risk and you felt more maybe like a man. entitled to take up the space the interesting thing but that is that research was not able to be replicated. so other academics came along, including the person who co-authored on the study and said, no, i'm distances myself from the research, wasn't conducted well. so that said, i'm very careful because lot of people bring that and indon't think that necessarily if you're looking for that increaseed feeling of empowerment in terms of risk-taking or testosterone,

there's a whole "new york times" consider store that blew up social sciences and methodology and all kinds of things, but i do think its stands if you -- as we saw, very simply as we saw, if you roll back your shoulders, give our chest room to expand, our bellies room to expand, that naturally we'll take these breaths, give our body room and by doing so we can support our voices and take -- have a bigger imprint and therefore we can be more present in these meetings and more poised to assume a leadership role. so, the power postures or an interesting study. definitely something there budget might not be exactly what amy cuddy said it was. >> i was thinking as you were talking but the supreme court justices and holiday they sort of tended to change the way they spoke to fit into that dominant

male paradigm how the conversation was happening. thought about a conference i've been attending over the last couple of of days where some of the male participants feel pretty entitled to take a whole lot of time, like more their allotted time talk but whatever they seem to feel like tuck talking about and a lot of the onus in changing the way the dialogue happens seems to be on women to change the way they talk to participate in the dominant pear dime set by men. do you see in your work any conversation about men changing how they talk? >> right. that's such an interesting question. the question is, referring to the supreme court study where the women on the court began to talk more like men so they could get in there and have their fair share of the conversation and their say, and a panel where men talk a lot but the women are told, well, instead of reforming the men or tweak ought the men people that the women -- the

onus is on them to alter how they speak and that's interesting. something that's unfolding and is complex. don't think we put so much on the backs of women already and now it's up to us to change so we can talk more. and that is not the wait it should be. it should be shared. everyone has a stake in bringing all voices to the table. so many have a stake in it and women have a stake in it. if you notice -- don't know it you caught this new item, the head of the nih said he would no longer be a panelist on panels where they were all men. he won't go to those conferences anymore. so that is something men can do, for instance to be aware of this -- have you heard the word manel when there are supposed panels but it's all dudes. so people are being more attuned to this, not okay to have this mono culture of male voices on a people which is meant to give a diversity of opinions.

so this is one way this can start to happen. there are things hr can do. my become goes into these, get a little complicated but there are things that we can do to flip the equation. exercises the company can do to say if you're the person who talks the most, the person who interrupts the most, you identify that and we're in small groups and workshopping things here and what happens if you're the one now -- your role is to speak less than everyone else, your role is to be the one who is interested more, who only has ten seconds to talk and see what does that feel like when we flip the paradigm and see what it's like for other people. sometimes you can run a timer on everybody at the meeting, and i have been at meetings like this where there's a timer running and when the timer goes off, you're done. and then to have people become aware. oh, i guess i was talking a long time, or maybe for other participants, i don't have anything to say after ten

minutes because i clam up. what does it feel like for them to talk for the full minutes as they have to do in the exercises. so it's an awareness building moment we're in and the more we have gender equity on these panels, and conventions, and all of these other spaces, boards, where it has historically been male dominated, the more equity we get the more we create space for new voices and different communication styles and different kinds of voices. so things will not be like this forever but for right now, i do consider it an act of sub version for women on the court could talk like men. it is an act because they're getting their voices in there so they're subverting what their role is, the contract for women is you can participate but not too much. you can talk but you can't dominate. even women on the court. so they're turning expectations around so it's a tool i think women are being forced into,

but, no, ideally this is a shared burden for everybody because we all have a stake in it. back there? >> let's just wait until the microphone reaches you. thank you. >> i'm a spiritual person that feels god is part of my life and found some time ago that another name for god is abba, and so i use that name and just recently i've had the thought that a-ba is kind of like the breathing, a is breathing in and ba is breathingout. you think of the profundity in those that have studied the spiritual and so forth, there's power there.

so, if that breathing in and out is -- as far as a direct connection between the deepest part of your inner resources cooker that not be a source of strength? you talk about thank you cinderellas and lifting up the voice. if a person gets in his head that this breathing in and out is a powerful thing, could that not be a source of power? >> sure. i think that could be a tool for someone like you who considers themselves a spiritual person, and the breath is in many ways considered -- the yoga tradition, considered the cord that binds body to soul so this is the breath which is kind of keep us in the body, this flow of breath. so interesting things to explore. what's that's breath is. really fascinating like the proverbial onion where there's always another layer and you can go that deep with it, and

consider that power. think about -- i don't think people do it so much knee. but la mas breathing where it was bringing a new life into the world. there's power there. so the breath you can use it as the vessel for power and you can go as deep as you want. it's a journey because you find the more you work with it, more it tells you do tells what you're feelingor, mental state, whether you're calm or excited, whether you're scared, if you're elated the breath changes. so to be more attuned to the breath and start learning toite in a way that can enhance the rest of your life, and it really can. working with your breath can change the rest of your life and the way you're able to manage yourself in different situations and calm a mind. i if you're able to work with it like that and think of is as a long-term journey it can be

incredibly rewarding. , i we have a make crow phone coming over. -- microphone coming over. thank you. >> there is any research about meeting design that would better accommodate for female women's voices. >> there is and it's unfolding. it's fascinating and i can't remember exactly where it -- it is in the book but essentially if we want women and men to be represented more equally in these meeting spaces, one thing that works is to have a consensus model. so this kind of flies in the face of the way most meetings are run and probably most places would not be terribly thrilled to do this but maybe ways to move into the space. so instead of winner takes all where one faction of the meeting group can kind of ram through by numbers their honest -- point of

view because the most vocal is usually men in most scenarios, if we have a consensus model, maybe more like jury scenario where everyone has to agree, then you get more women's voices. isn't that fascinating? i don't know if it's how women -- if women are more geared toward consensus or i think it might also be just that you know that your voice matters because everyone has to agree. so that changes things. if there's a way at least some of the time in meetings for whoever is managing that meeting to say, we are moving in this instance to consensus model. you'll surface more women's voices and moving closer to equity. in fact, in this part may be a little challenging to the way we think but it but you need more women than men and have women talking as much as men. so not even 50-50. it's 70-30 with women to men in

that scenario. so it's really a great way if you want to dive into the studies but it is become looked at and bringing that awareness to it as well. like we talked but here, who is talking, who is talking most, and how can we change these patterns of behavior around it. >> i don't know if this is germane or not but i've been a member of a church choir for 30 years, and the vast majority of the pieces, the altos -- sopranos and altos are the first to sing. the composers seem to trust the women's voices to get the idea across more than the men. >> that's interesting. eye am former choir singer, too, and i'm thinking on that.

my ear goes to the upper voices because i'm eye tuned to that but i notice that true. when some people play instruments or sing the lower parts think hear the lower parts. i can't speak to much to that but that's a fascinating thought, there's something about those women's voices but also if you think but early classical music, a lot of the times the compose sirs were writing sacred music, and i think in my music history classes there was this idea that this voices were angelic and you have boy choirs, too, so that really high voice could have been what name first. that's interesting. >> yet when people are going deaf, the voices that they lose first are the high range voices and don't hear the women around them. literally. >> i know what you're thinking, when people good deaf, the high range guess. anyone else?

one back there here comes the mic. >> how did you get involved in writing. >> in writing. well, i have always wanted to be a writer. i'm an accidental talk show host and media trainer. there's a story in my become how i got into radio and i went to wisconsin public radio because i wanted to write, which makes no sense, i realize in heterosuspect-but i thought here's a place i can get paid to write and thought i could write for radio and there's particular style to radio and you can see it in this book. it's more for the ear and phrase are shorter. i went there to write and i didn't the guy who gave me the tour, the chief announcer, took me around, and we chatted, and he said, you don't have any speech defects. do you want to be on the air? and i kind of went -- inside i'm going, no.

don't really want to be on the air but of course you say yes. if someone asks you if you want to be on the radio, you say yes and i ended 'with a long career of radio. about i wrote on the side, took creative writing work study university of wisconsin madison and start free lansing for the the alternative weekly in maddison and then draft witness the state journal and reviewed theater form. the, and then after i had my children irdecided to get back into more creative writing and i started writing essays and i was able to parlay into paces on national public radio. so it's always been part of my life and then this okay. -- this came together as an opportunity to write this book. i love i get to bring parts of that memoir writing into the book so there are a lot of stories bullets my life pep nerd here with the rest of it. and the rest is nonfiction. i think writing is something --

if you're a writer, you just keep writing no matter what and even though i didn't good to could toll get the msa, which i almost did, i have thought of myself as a writer. one more? no? >> so, i'm curious if there's a point at which children as they're growing up where the dynamic changes between who speaks more, girls and boys, and i am the mother of a 14-year-old and he is a boy, and i love him dearly and he's very smart, but i've volunteered in his classroom over the years? to be honest and no offense to boys in the room, the girls are the ones that really seem to shine and participate a lot more and get up in front of the classroom more than the boys do. so i'm wondering if there's an age at which that changes or if

educational system encourages boys over girls at some point. >> right. that's so interesting the question is when does it switch, the idea that girls talk less and believe in their own voices express boys start to talk more. i could talk for a long time about this. the first thing that came to mind was a study -- i can't get it exactly right. but there was a research study looking at boys and girls and how they perceive their own gender, and so they were told a story about a super smart person and i think the other one was a super nice person. one person was brilliant and one was nice and they were sheen boy market and a girl character and asked, which one was more likely to be the brilliant character and early on, something like i think the ages were five or six -- i can't remember

exactly -- beth gender picked their own gender so the boys say the boy was more likely to be the brilliant character and then the girls said the girl was more likely and then they did the same thing a few years arrester and the boys still picked boys and the girls also picked boys. so the girls by some depressingly young age, seven or eight or something, were questioning their own gender's capacity for brilliance. they were think offering the -- think the boys as the brimmant ones and it is incredibly troubling and there's interesting research how teacher s -- i'm not blaming teaches lo teacher but some teacher is will call on in group settings like this, they will call on boys by name and say, alex, tell us what you think, and they wouldn't ever use the girl's name. i was not that enough that it

showed up and the research conclude that teacher -- unconscious bias were encouragings" to speak but not encouraging girls to speak in the same way. and there's also a societal pressure on girls to be perfect and another study i found looked at this internal voice that girls have. so in a group setting when girls are maybe 13, 14, what happens when they decide whether to speak or stay silent in and the found out girls go through incredibly torturous mental acrobatics trying to decide whether to speak or not, and really struggling and feeling like, well, i could speak but might be a social cost and i might be embarrassed and all of these really difficult things that ended up really suppressing their voice and didn't seem that the boys were going through the same thing. so, there's a lot going on that we need to put our finger on. there's a founder of comedy,

called gold comes, teaches girls improv and i love that she says. this is so fascinating. she says that girls don't need to do group improv. she teaches them standup. i misspoke. it's standoff she teaches. the. she says what works for girls to is get them to see even the things they consider flawed about themselves as something they were in charge of and something that was funny and even more than themselves and okay to bring out. so instead of being perfect they could take whatever they were insecure out amp it up and hit was funny some something they could do alone. girls in improv you have to rely on your improv partner but the fact that girls got up there alone and commanded respect, had the microphone, had the room, that was so important to them. so i think there are things we can do to encourage girl's voices and we're just starting to crack the nut on that.

one more and then maybe wrap it up? >> as i understand, there are cycles of equality, inequality throughout history for millions of years. 20th century was a cycle towards equality, where we're know on the other cycle toward inequality is a believe women's power, strength, place in society, has been growing during the 20th century. i don't know. could be wrong. it's still kind of growing, but the cycle is turning now, so that may be a force against growth. on the other hand, these cycles that you -- inequality has been greater and greater over the millenia. could it be that this is such an important issue that women could

be the factor that breaks these cycles and stops the continuous increase of inequality so that puts women in an absolutely unique position. i don't know if you have -- what -- >> that's a tough one. i hope you're right. i think that we are bending in that direction but progress is -- just not linear. we think we'll move like an arrow in this direction but we circle back on ourselveses and zig-zag and get lost any mire and then move forward so i think things are moving in that direction and women have the power and it's greg a different direction but time will tell and we have to make the most of this moment to change things. thank you. thank you so much for coming. [applause]

>> thank you to veronica rueckert. we have books for sale at the front desk. come back and get your book signed and ask your secret questions. thank you for coming. won't have a book store without you and hope to see you at another event. [applause] >> today on booktv at 7:00 p.m. eastern in elates book, are women on the ground, author zara looks at the challenges female arab and meddle eastern journalist face. >> all of the authors were able to push through what behave -- barriers barriers that they head. one essay is such raw and honest account of grief and loss and it

also reflects the state of the arab world today. this isn't an uplifting book. >> then sunday, at 7:45:00 p.m. eastern, princeton university professor perry, on race, gender, and class in america. her most recent back is, breathe, a letter to my sons. >> the reality is that i have to arm them, not simply with kind of a set of skills and intellectual tools that allow them to flourish in school and ethics and values, but also way to make sense of the hostility that they encounter every day, from people at times whose responsibility is to treat them as community members. >> at 9:00 p.m. eastern on "after words," media research center founder and president brett bowsell on his book, upmarks issue big media's war against trump. >> all modicum of decency has

been cast aside, from donald trump to his opponents but from his opents nets to him they call him far worse things things and attempting to far worse to him whan that they accuse him hoff doing to. the it's telling. they have no right, none. >> watch booktv every weekend on c-span 2. >> here's the current best-selling nonfiction books according to "the los angeles times." topping the list is the account of growing idaho mountains, then pioneers, the recovents over the early settlers of the northwest territory. and then it's former first lady michelle obama's memoir, becoming, the best-selling book of last year. following that journalist lisa

tadea examines female sexualate in three women and wrapping up the look at the best-selling nonfiction books according to "the los angeles times" is mark manson's advice on leading a happier life. some of these authors have appeared on booktv and you can watch them online at booktv.org. >> good morning. everyone please take their seats. good morning. welcome to everyone here and everyone watching live online. my name is dylan croup and i'm an intern at young america's foundation. the prepremier outreach association for the conservative movement for college and high school chapters. youngmer foundations he 'helps that america's