.. .. what appears to be the crypt of an antique pistol. it pokes up out of his jeans over his mouth west -- southwest native shirt. the day before he died he made his last direct plea to the tribe in the video again about

the artifacts. we will finish our time with this. crouching in the doorway of one of the stone refuge. he tells the camera about his native bloodlines. moving on from his native credit. is time he said or he seemed to be saying to everyone in the final days. it is time for them to throw off the bia. to become an independent nation without them. he takes off his gloves he tips on his heels. ibm believe in the american

people. i believe in the native americans. it is time for them to stand up and throw off the federal government out of their own nations. i hope to see you soon. now looking down and looking at. it drops away. maybe on the same side. we are not enemies. that's all i have to say. there is a whole other bird passage. at the very beginning. when the refuge is finally opening. i think this would be a good place to close. to ask questions of people have questions about what

they've heard or about this whole event or other parts of the story that you may have followed. >> i'm curious if you did interviews with people who are involved in the occupation and how many interviews you did and what that experience was like talking with them. i spent a lot of time with them at the trials in portland. he was never charged. but he testified in the fall of 2016. i can't remember why he did it.

>> he did not testify but he was there. in the defense have an actor read his testimony while he was in the court watching. >> i sprint -- spent a lot of time with brandon portland. and with a lot of other people associated with the bundy revolution. in the fall of 2016 in a number of the other occupiers who were out there. appear in the book from interviews. often during the trials in the other events. actions that they took. i joined the group after all of this it became a leader of the group.

during their time in court. there is still an important figure among them. after they get out of prison in 2018 when the charges they were with the case in oregon. regarding the standoff. in that case thrown out of court because of government mafia 3,000 pages of a discovery evidence. that's when i finally got to meet him. after working on his book for a long time. and then did some phone interviews with ryan afterwards.

i'm sure i'm forgetting some of them. there is a whole chapter about select -- a lengthy protest. in nevada. a company that used to be called the direction corporation of america. they run a lot of private prisons. they were in a private prison with their father for about two years. then the camp a camp and they would circle it every day. and they would blow the shofar on the jericho march the gathered out there they learned a lot about american prisons over the two years after the arrest. in 2016 they were doing a lot

of passive resistance policies. this is a pretty common kind of practice he was handcuffed with his hands behind his back. his refusal to observe certain policies. his followers came and set up a camp. they were doing this amazing thing. they set up from the dimensions of the shower stall. they could suffer with that. they would live stream there

for donations. nobody ever made it to 13 hours one person made it to ten. an overnight. it's like a ten hour video of someone suffering in a box and talking it's like they discovered a performance art through this whole process. it's very strange to encounter that not the same background in any way. it protest something that is of great concern for me as well. >> by the time they get out of prison. the replacement of prisons with a system of restitution and rehabilitation. that was a thing he was very

serious about at that time. they are comp located a bunch of people. >> this event made me very frightened when it happened and angry. >> i'm wondering what you think what is the impact of this event. are there ways that ripple out from them. one of my main focuses in the book has been how much 19th century history was born a forward by forward by that event. in the tribe -- tribe involvement. it really highlighted and made it really clear what the

occupation is. it was a restaging of the 19th century western settlement and stealing of land and all of that. provided all of the feelings of belonging in mandarin they were offering nothing less. not just america but you're helping humankind be ushered forward. the method to do that was to restage to do that. that aspect of history i think it reverberated backwards. i feel like it is an image

that gives us some buddy in the impasse that we face culturally and politically right now. maybe facebook maybe brings me to a more proper answer to your question which would be what i see alarming about what they were able to do. and this is something that they will tell you. you've a county out there that's impoverished with the very impoverished public sector. they are dealing with the size of massachusetts. depending on the budget. and very easily using this community of feeling on facebook that is very

disorganized. they were able to challenge the sovereignty of local power in that area. just by virtue of inspiration. i think the shadows and types it becomes a shadow of maybe a larger kind of problem or future kind of things that can happen when you have broken down civil society or whatever you want to call it. and also a broken down public sector. and you also had the strangeness of the wealth of the platforms which are public spaces also privatized. and in a sense automated. where intense feeling is poured into a space. and then increased in one of

the most difficult things to think about what the story. it has a relationship to sovereignty the political sovereignty and governance. that's what feels the most ominous to me. it's by this story keeps going. when i start it a couple weeks ago. they were getting to create their own currency. >> maybe that connection. a connection to the story might feel tenuous. facebook created the possibilities of this. they are actively involved in circumventing and undermining different forms of sovereignty and creating through that new forms of sovereignty. is it governance. i don't know what it is. but the idea of them having their own currency would be outside of the sovereignty of power.

i've national national governments been able to regulate that. the larger concern i see. from that story. and then more specifically after the malicious stuff. that world is really disorganized. right now they are very fractured because of trump in because of human. he had been broken with that world. i don't know if you would use that terminology over the rhetoric around the caravans in 2018. because a lot of the militia world. is very heavily trump ian. and very anti- immigrant and made another video. speech like he does.

it is different. but he made another one of his addresses saying he have done his research. and decided that people from honduras and everywhere else that were coming. were suffering from real calamities and it was our duty as christians to welcome them. he was upset about the rhetoric coming forth from the president. and beginning to speak like that. it sounds like nazi germany. and then he received the torment of abuse from people that supported him before and told him that he wished they were dead. that they have helped him. he is no longer a galvanizing force in that community but a lot has happened that something else could be right. and because of the power of the internet something like that could happen again. and then i see with things like like one flashpoint in the west could be issues about climate change. especially if when climate change bills have an intent impact on rural communities that are already intensely suffering economically and you

already had these kind of discourses circulating. about the sheriff or we didn't get into it today. but the rhetoric on the roar on rural america. it's a big thing. for that oath keepers militia. you flashpoint like that. give the ability of the internet to automate and allow people to organize more of it in a flash mob unless plotted out year-by-year if an incredible amount of firearms in america. then all it takes is a certain charismatic figure or a galvanizing figure to end up with a very different kind of a american american yellow vest kind of situation. that does not feel like it is good. it's potentially alarming. every effort to craft climate

change legislation and programs has to take that time. it seems so important that all of those efforts be happening on multiple scales and be done thoughtfully with all sorts of engagements in. in. for the u.s. fish and wildlife. we spent a lot of time with him. on the mount here. several years ago. what really struck me about this which we did not hear at all is the whole sense of god calling. in the messianic thing none of

that came through from the media as far as i know did i just miss it. i'm assuming that this pressing point is that the media doesn't know anything about church anyway. >> i am always objecting to the fact that they don't know what they're talking about. in terms of that the church history or science and religion anyway. does the media pick up on that at all. it seems to me that was fundamental to what we are talking about. the question that i pass along for my son. where do you think the next one will happen. he thinks it might be over water rights. in nevada. the tax memos.

and i just talked about you coming. >> i don't know about that particular case. that water rights are gonna be there. that then it creates different consolations. one of the big places with spring valley nevada. up in the great basin. in las vegas. and by and up the water rights. then you have environmentalist environmentalists very concerned. and las vegas is at the heart of this whole story. >> this never would've happened without las vegas. las vegas have a grow. and that's when they came to deliver the new regulation. and they discovered their special way out. it would seem to me. in hardin county two. the water is a huge issue now. they had been if you're familiar with farming. dry farming practices.

the issues around pivot farming. allen the drylands. out in the drylands. out in the desert. one of the absurdities we get with the global capital that we get. like people drilling and to the desert. to make pipit farms. your growing out fast -- alfalfa alfalfa. that creates a problem obviously for agriculture. but to the first part i think there was a little bit. i was definitely aware from coverage like these people are. in because of some of the statements they made early on. i think the mainstream coverage kind of did an election year thing. people left behind.

and then there was different coverage depending on what they followed. thank you. >> you mentioned that constitutional sheriff philosophy a couple of times in the q&a you had been talking about governance. i've heard from people who are very close in the area at the time and i believe you mention this. the sheriff was not the kind he really didn't want this occurring in his county and when the ambush took place they were going to a public meeting in a county one county over where the sheriff was a leader of this alternate governance constitutional

sheriff movement. can you comment about that. >> he makes a brief appearance in the book. grant county to the north. it was voted the constitutional man of the year. emily get the acronym of the organization wrong now. it's very long. it has peace officers and men and women and whoever. it's basically the organ of the men who's from arizona and in a lot of ways we talked about this a lot in the book. in the times i talked with him.

they had been associated with that. they also broke. when they were in prison and started talking about prison reform they have to split. at that time that idea i think was really important for him. he is a devout latter-day saint the person also annotated all of imitated all of the constitutions that if you've ever seen any of it they usually carry a copy of the constitution. with the reproduction of an oil painting. george washington on the cover.

from somebody in that same sort of thing. and richard mack i think has a lot of ways. brings forward those ideas. it is where the constitutional sheriff idea comes from. people are aware of the origins of that idea. are you guys familiar with that. in the 60s and 70s very frightening really violent and racist and anti- somatic militia. in the christian identity

organization. they're the main preacher. in the figure of that group. very disturbing and strange. one of the main parts of his a doctrine is the constitutional sheriff. in the sheriff won't defend the constitution. at the sheer phone do it then it's the duty of the people to hang the sheriff. a lot of people suffered a lot in the course of this story. sheriff ford was a lot of what happened. and people that followed they

have something to partner with. it is a huge issue for people out in smaller communities for federal agencies like you can imagine. how horrible that can feel. thank you. >> think you everybody for coming. >> and book book tv attended an event where author joshua brought check offered a critique of socialism. here is a portion. it was coined in the 1820s.

by the followers of a small group of thinkers of british and french who were not out to overthrow governments but have ideas of a better society they created over a. of time through the mid- 1800s and supported a 50 of these experimental communities. even though these visionaries were european. >> it's easy to get land in the united states. in the social mores were much more fluid and in fact their

ideas or taken tremendously seriously perhaps the most important was robert owen and he announced he was coming to the united states to create a community that would demonstrate the validity of his ideas. and he was taken tremendously seriously on his way he commissioned an architect to produce a scale model of the idea socialist community that he envisioned and it was put on display in the white house for several months in conjunction with his arrival. then a joint session of congress was convened to hear him present his ideas and not only into the congressman and senator set to listen but also members of the supreme court and outgoing president monroe

all spent hours listening to this presentation in the community he set up was called new harmony. harmony. it was an indian nap. almost instantly collapsed and disharmony in what happened at new harmony turned out to be exactly representative of the whole group of these experiments. their median life span was two years before they went the way of a new harmony. it might have been in an alternative imaginative history that the whole idea of socialism would've ended right there. been there, tried that didn't work. but then it was taken up and given a much more powerful life by this remarkable

tagteam of political activists and philosophers of great power. >> they pulled off what i think has to go down ends one of the great intellectual columns of all-time. >> you can visit the website at book tv.org. the next book we want to talk about on book tv is the rough writers theater roosevelt. the author is mark lee gardner. how did teddy roosevelt get to san juan hill in 1898. >> it was a lot of hard tryin