>> book tv continues now on cspan2, television for serious readers. >> now on book tv we want to introduce you to author haben girma . she is also a lawyer, ms. girma, what kind of law do you practice? >> would you call me "haben"? >> yes ma'am. >> i focused on using my skills to advance opportunities. >> why did you choose that type of law? >> i was born deaf blind.

most of the world is designed for people who can see and hear and when we ask for accommodation , for example in braille instead of print, that limits our ability to get aneducation, to go and get a job . i've experienced a lot of those barriers and i realized the law allows us to create change and i wanted to create change so my own personal story is, my struggle inspired me to become an attorney. >> here is her book "haben", the death blind woman who conquered harvard law, first

deaf blind person to graduate from harvard law school, is that right? >> that's right what was that experience like? >> we had a lot of unknowns. i reached out to another deaf blind harvard graduate and asked them how did you do this? how did you do oral arguments , how did you do exams? i had to figure a lot of it out and it ultimately started back in almond trace law when i had to learn to navigate the school systems. one of my early chapters in my book is an experience where a teacher told me i was failing at class and this was middle school. and i was extremely surprised , how could i be failing a class when i'm doing all the assignments and the

investigator that was going on, my teacher for the blind talked to the teacher. this was bret hart middle school in oakland california and the mainstream public school so i was attending class with nondisabled students in not a specialized school and after the teacher for the blind talked to the mainstream teacher they realized that the teacher was writing assignments on the board and i wasn't seeing it . i was missing homework because i didn't see that it was assigned and sometimes the instructor would read the assignment from the back of the room and i didn't know homework was being assigned so i realized if i just try to be a student, i'll never be successful. i have to both be a student and my own teacher and advocate and that's when things changed. i started advocating for my

rights. i started checking out one of the strategies to get close to the assignments if you can't see theassignments? i go to every teacher and ask what did i miss ? and i continue doing that through high school . my grades went off. i started getting straight a'swhen i took responsibility for my education . and the school actually was more accepting than most schools. most schools throughout the united states don't even provide blind students that so even if they heard the assignment, they would miss out on the opportunity to do the reading and stay on top of classes and those types of barriers forced students to fall behind which affects their ability to get good grades and a job later so even though i had barriers in my school, i was getting more

opportunities than most students which allowed me to once i had advocacy skills, that helps me go on to college and go on to law school and when i faced all those at harvard law school, i had advocacy skills to fall on that i had access to reading materials, and things that participate in all aspects of the program. >> at what point in your life were you aware that you saw and heard things differently than the majority of people? >> that's a good question. i was born deaf blind, deaf blindness is a. [inaudible]. i had more than i do now and

it slowly deteriorated over time. it probably will continue to deteriorate over time and i just adapt and come up with solutions, then i can access what i need. when did i notice that i'm deaf blind ? i don't have an exact date. when i was in middle school, i remember i was surprised that i was missing information. i didn't realize the teacher was writing on the board and i was missing stuff or that he was seeing things in the back of the room and i was missinginformation . i kind of assumed that the way that i experienced the world was howmost kids and adults experience the world . so when i had that meeting with one of my teachers, the teacher for the blind and the mainstream teacher, that's when istarted to realize how i experience the world is

different than others . and other students could just go to school and expect the teachers to teach them. i couldn't do that . i had to think about what i might be missing. what are the potential unknowns here. how can i find those unknowns? and all my life was this process of trying to identify unknowns and figure them out and come up with solutions. >> from your book miss girma you write the blind community has horror stories of blind kids who never contribute around the house because their parents tell them they can't area my parents expect me to do chores and i do. >> that's true. so the truth is as a kid i

didn't want to do chores what kid wants to do chores ? luckily i parents still expected me to do chores. so i learned to do chores, i learned that there are nonvisual techniques for everythingfrom vacuuming to doing dishes . other parents are like, you can't do that if you're blind . or they tell their kid with a disability to sit in the corner and not participate. that kid grows up to an adult and never developsindependent skills. that is extremely limiting . it's important that parents encourage their kids to participate around the house. if you're not sure how they can do it, research . try. there are a lot of disability organizations that can help you come up with solutions to do activities with your child in an accessible format. my parents had high

expectations, but they were also very afraid and protective and there was one time i wanted to go and travel to mali west africa and my parents told me know, that's not safe. i told them you guys, i'm from africa, my dad grew up in ethiopia, my mom grew up in eritrea. how can you tell me africa is not safe but they were responding on appearance and wanting to protect their child and being afraid of the unknowns. how can you build a school if you can't see. and i told them the other american students also don't know how to get to school or learn together or figure it out. and they still said no. i was frustrated, but i wouldn't give up. i told them that i could do

this activity and they wouldn't believe me . often it's the person with the disability understands their abilities, that's not people outside that experience of the person with the disability. and they were building me, so i brought inan ally to help advocate. i went to the program manager .the program that takes kids to develop continuous calculus schools. this organization is called solon and the belmont program manager and i and my parents sat down, for lunch. and they expressed their fears. within the program managerand he was able to address their fears . they asked how can she go to school if you can't see. and the program manager after two honestly, i don't know. i don't know what you find a way. so figure it out area it's

okay if you don't have an answer. as long as you try, as long as you go out there, pick up a shovel,start digging . you'll find strategies. you'll find alternative techniques and when i went to mali to go to school, we did find alternative techniques . i knew how to handle a shovel , how to dig and learned all those activities. even building the latrines, after that when i came back to the united states, my parents felt slightly more confident about my abilities. they still have fears, all parents have years and this desire to keep the child space at home and we continue to have that struggle, even now there's still a little bit of struggle of them wanting to keep me safe and me wanting to explore the world . >> haben girma, we're sitting

here in a bright studio with lots of lights on . what, and what do you hear or see right now, what are the images or the sounds? >>. >> it's hard to explain. i've never had 2020 vision so i don't know what you're experiencing. nor do i know if you have 2020 vision. what do you see? >> i think i see everything, my vision is 2020 so i can see your face. and your hands typing and i can see claire over here typing and we will explain why she is here as well in just a minute but is it opaque? is that a term that works for you? >> are you aware of light,

let's put it that way. >> i can answer that question. yes, i really am aware of light area i cantell when the lights on and off . everything's blurry. i can sometimes see the outlines of objects. as someone close to you, i can see them.i can't see you at the moment. but if you look closer, i would see the outline of you, but not the details. like eyes or facial expressions. everything very bright. >> can you understand any of my words at this point. you write in your book about being able to hear higher tones rather than lower tones in voice. >> i can see a little bit of the high frequencies. if someone's near me i can usually tell when they're

speaking. i can't answer any of their words. so i don't know what you're saying. until claire the captioner types what you're saying , she's typing on a keyboard, that's what i'm connected to my braille computer. icc, she types what you're saying and i read it in braille. they run over the dots on my braille machine and medium reads the words and then i know what you're saying. >> you also have another assistant here with you, who is that western mark. >> that is milo. milo is my seeing-eye dog. he's a small german shepherd dog. he's probably considered a big dog and he was trained as a seeing-eye. >>.

>> he's your second dog? >> he is my second dog. myfirst dog , who i talk about in my book, there's a chapter in my book where i talk about what it was like to go to the seeing-eye and train with a dog. if you want to have a good relationship with an animal or a human being, you need to invest in thatrelationship . so i stepped away from college, stepped away from family. spend three weeks entirely focused on developing relationships with my seeing-eye dog. at first it was incredibly awkward. i was a stranger to her and her name was maxine and she was a stranger to me. we didn't understand each other. but sometimes she wouldlock me into chairs, not stop it stands . she was fully trained but she didn't have a relationship with me and we had to work on our relationship and over

time, we learned to understand each other. her guiding improved dramatically. for nine years we went together traveling all over the country. when i graduated from college she was with me. when i was climbing icebergs in alaska, she was with me and when i went to law school at harvard, she was there by my side. during my classes, walking across the street area last year she passed away from cancer. and it was really hard to lose a partner. >> not just a dog but a partner.she was by my side through so many big moments. >> you talk about the techniques that you used and one of them small techniques was you to lift your toes when you're walking with the dog to keep from tripping. how does that change how you want?

>> you're a very observant reader. that's a smalldetail in my book but you picked it up . so throughout my life, i came up with strategies to help me be more aware of the world. one strategy is i like wearing flats. very thin shoes so i can feel the environment more easily and i'm walking area. i can feel all of that through my shoes because i wear flat. >> i also took my toes upwards when i'm walking. so that if i did match against something, it's easier to maintain your balance if your toes are slightlypointed upwards . so i rarely fall.

partly because of the way i walk and also because i'm a dancer. dancing helps you develop really good balance. >> let's talk about lewis and clark college and one of your first advocacy therefore the many. >> that's a good one. one of my favorite chapters in the book is about my time at lewis and clark college in portland oregon. it's a small liberal arts school who's done a fantastic job providing me access to my classes . i had all of the materials for my textbooks, my exams. everything was going well in my classes. there was just one issue. the cafeteria, in the cafeteria a half maybe six different food stations.

sighted students would walk in, read the print menu and take their choice. i couldn't read the menu. blindness wasn't the problem. blindness is never the problem. the problem was the format of the menu. so i went to the manager and i asked, can you make the menuaccessible . you could email it to me or braille the menu or posted online. i have software called screen reader that will convert to graphical information on websites or emails in accessible formats like digital braille and the manager told me sorry, we have over 1000 students. we don't really have time to facilitate one student for the first few months i tolerated the situation . i said at least i have food.

at least i'm getting my textbooks for my classes. at least i'm getting an education . sometimes we engage in the oppression index. we compare ourselves and we tell ourselves someone else has it worse,stop complaining. at least you don't have it as bad as someone else but that kind of thinking is not helpful . it will never remove barriers and advanced society if we are constantly comparing forms of oppression. i realized if i wanted the system to change i had to do something so i researched the americans with disabilities act area i talked to advocates and i told the university, i told the food service at the cafeteria at they have a legal obligation to make the menu accessible to people with disabilities and that if they don't, i'm

going to pursue legal action. i had no idea how i would do that . i was just 19. i couldn't afford a lawyer. now i know there are nonprofit legal centers that will help students with disabilities but back then i didn't know that. all i knew is that i hadto try. i had to do something . and in this case, the very next day the manager apologized and promised to make the menus accessible. they did . they started sending the menus. back then i was a vegetarian and it's much easier to eat vegetarian when you know what the food choices are. when you know which one of the stations is serving a vegetarian meal. and i finally could more easily eat vegetarian and the

menus became delicious and the next year a new blind student came to the college. he didn't have to fight for access to the menus. he had immediate access to the menus. that taught me thatwhen i advocate , i'm removing barriers for anentire community . inspired me to become an attorney and continue advocating for people with disabilities . >> your book is written in a series of vignettes. why did you choose that model ? >> i feel stories are really powerful to help teach people a lesson and no one wants to lecture to people. no one wants to be lectured at. so instead i offer a series of engaging, humorous stories that will help the lessons stick. each story teaches us something about able as him. abel is him is a set of

beliefs that people of disabilities are inferior to nondisabled. you're not inferior but ableism teaches society that we are so the stories in my book help identify ableism and under the book there is an accessibility guide if you feel inspired. if you feel moved to take steps to remove accessibility . it makes me feel inspired to take steps to remove barriers and work towards accessibility, that accessibility guide to health . >> what is your reaction if somebody tells you you're an inspiration to them ? >> i tell them what are you inspired to do? >> that's not a word you like, is it?

>> it really depends on how people use it. and i tried to be patient. as an advocate my role is to teach people accessibility so i ask people what you mean when you say i'm inspiring. you mean you want to take steps? are you inspired to make your website accessible or is the word inspiration a disguise for pain? sometimes it is and so often for people withdisabilities they're not even doing anything productive . so we want to ask people be aware of what you're actually saying. tried to use a differentword . be a role model, me being motivation so ask yourself what are you feeling before you use a word? >> haben girma, you write in

your book that only 10 percent of blind people can read braille and 70 percent of blind people are unemployed. >> only about 10 percent of the blind community reads braille because a lot of teachers of the blind are not teaching braille. there's an assumption that oh, they can just listen to books on tape or they can just listen to it on their computers,there's no need for braille is the assumption . but if people don't learn braille, if blind people don't learn braille, they don't develop literacy. it's important to know how words are spelled, how sentences are formed. if you only listen to stories, you'll think once upon a time is one word. so it's important for more

people to learn braille and we need to make sure that our schools are teaching braille to blind students and if adults become blind later in life, we should ensure that there are services to teach braille to adults because braille is a really powerful tool to connect with the world, to access information and especially when it comes to employment, braille readers have an advantage over non-braillereaders . about 70 percent of the blind communities experience unemployment and that's because a lot of them employers assume that blind people can't do lots of different tasks. when i was in college, i wanted to get a summer job. just like so many other college students who want to get a summer job. and a friend of mine told me

i know a place where there are lots of summer jobs. alaska. so i said okay, let's start at alaska. and he was right.there were lots of summer jobs in alaska. you know, there's a large tourism industry with lots of jobs there to help meet the needs oftourists . i applied to tons of jobs and employers would see my resume and get excited. i and a valedictorian in high school. i had a really good brief in college . and lots of volunteer experiences. so employers would get excited with my resume. but once they met me for the interview, he realized i had a disability and theywould come up with all kinds of excuses . actually, we just roll the position, while we were looking for differences. that was incredibly frustrating.

people told me work hard and you'll be successful. i worked hard and i still face barriers. working hard alone is not enough. society needs to remove barriers. employers need to remove barriers . eventually, after after a long search, i found an employer who was inclusive. it was on a small gym in alaska riyadh and i went at the front desk clerk.my responsibility was making sure, being responsible for the cash register. making sure that, cleaning the changing rooms. one day a woman walked in and she told me one of the treadmills was not working. i followed her to one of the treadmills. i tried hitting the on button . it wouldn't work.

i tried the other button. it wouldn't work. i felt the treadmill from top to bottom and on the bottom there was this switch. i flipped the switch and the machine went to life. the lady told me oh my goodness, i didn't seethat switch . i told her i didn't see it either. sometimes non-visual techniques are equal in value and surpass visual techniques. >> just to go back to that gym story. was your hearing better at that time that you could understand the woman speaking to you? >>. >>. >> i could hear more back then. i was told deaf, deafness is a spectrum so if someone was close to me i can understand them.

>> i saw earlier when i spoke to you, you couldn'thear me but when claire spoke to you , you could hear hervery clearly . or more clearly. >> claire has a slightly higher voice and you do. you have a lower voice. so claire is a little easier to hear. i still don't hear claire very well. i catch distinctive nest of what she says. >> you describe yourself and your book as ultra visible and invisible. >> it comes with theater. i stand out. as a black woman. deaf blind with a guide dog and a funny computer. though people see me. but at the same time they don't see me. because they see all this stereotypes of blindness. they see a blind stereotypes

of blind people that we must often see in themedia. and all this . types about deaf people. there's so much of our history the word deaf and dumb have gone together. and a lot of people assume that their less intelligent because it's not fair. i want people, i want society to change and get rid of thoseassumptions . let's move away from the charity model and start seeing people with disabilities as talented with valuable contributor to society. >> haben girma, you arrived at the building of our studios by yourself with milo . but what's your system if you've never been to this building? what's your system?

>>. [laughter]. we have a system called structured discovery. which means use your skills. use your navigational orientation andability skills . when i was in high school, i had a lot of training from orientation and ability professionals. they taught me how to navigate their spaces that i've never experienced before and a lot of spaces have patterns. sidewalks, streets, buildings . so when i arrived here, milo and i moved through the lobby until we found a reception area and one of the staff members helped identify a seating area. and i use my keyboard and braille display to help

communicate with staff members. >> claire balding, what do you do for a living customer is this a full-time job for you? >> working with haben? number but i am a captioner so i caption tv, college classes, plays, musical sporting events for the hard ofhearing . >> how long have you been doing this in mark. >> i have been doing this for three years. >> is and this is a question for haben, is this system something you came up with or who invented what we're doing? >> this is a braille computer and designs like this have been around since the 80s.

they don't have bluetooth and in 2010, this model came out, this new kit and i started asking myself would it be possible to connect it to a keyboard and if i connected it to a keyboard, could i better communicate with people? braille is my strongest way to communicate. i often use sign language and i'm not fluent and most hearing people don't know sign language. most hearing people can type. if i had someone with a keyboard, most likely they'll be able to type and i'll be able to read what they're saying in braille so i spent time looking for different keyboards, texting it with a braille computer to try to find out which oneswork , which ones are most portable. and resilient to, so you have

to have them in all kinds of environments . so i carry a keyboard and i also carry one. >> haben girma, you tell the story in your book about the party after your first semester of law school. >> that's a good story. for the most part i've been in loud noisy environments and avoided parties because before i had a braille computer i had no ability to communicate with people in loud noisy environments and i would miss out and be excluded in those settings. then in 2010, just before i started law school, i found this custom area and i started finally using it in different environments.

at the end of my first semester in law school, several of my classmates b& together at a bar to elevate the end of classes. >> when i arrived, i was extremely nervous as i wasn't sure how it would work. how i would be to communicate and ask for the bar. it actually worked out well area in bars, people scream their voices to be heard, to be understood. and my classmates employed the opportunity to rest their voices and to type. they didn't have to shout to communicate with me. we could take a break and just type and i would be able to read. that's worked out well. until someone had too much to drink . then his words turned to gibberish and icould not understand him . >> i ask myself what i want

if i were in his shoes? what would i expect? so i offered to walk him home. and we were struggling to communicate . but he really, really admired maxine, my seeing-eye dog so through maxine i was able to convince him to help me, died him home and follow us home. he kept trying to go off in the wrongdirection and i had to keep reminding him , maxine, will help you get home and eventually we made it. >> right in your book, that the world is a steaming sensory stew. >> there's always something going on. even if you are cited and hearing that there's something going on in the world that you're not seeing andhearing . there's constantly

experiences, sensory experiences that we're missing out. and it's really important to be able to focus and be present on what you can access. there's so many things you can experience. i find that touch is a skill and it's one that very few people pay attention to. at different level of tactile intelligence. blind people are good at picking up environmental information through their skin. ifsomebody walks by me i can feel the air change as they walk by . there are lots of little signals you can pick up if you pay attention to touch so that's one of the stories in my book where i discovered tactile intelligence and i started building upthat skill . >> who is gordon and is he still a part of your life?

>> gordon is one of my best friends and i have a team of maybe 10 people who take turns traveling with me two different events and typing. and gordon is really good at typing and describing the world and identifying challenges. so i think it's really important to to everyone to have a person who can help you identify ableism or sexism or racism area and sometimes the world gets overwhelming and we feel tired and lose the ability to advocate for ourselves. but if you have a network of friends who can help cheer for you and help you advocate when you struggle toadvocate for yourself , it'sreally

important . >> you talk about the loneliness. >> i don't really have a community that automatically gets me. blind people don't automatically get someone who's deaf blind. the deaf community, the caribbean community don't automatically understand me. so i have to work to build a bridge, bridges and help explain, this is how i communicate. this is how i access information. that's find a middle ground that we can all communicate and understand each other. that takes work. it's a process and sometimes it getsexhausting . >> your brother must he was born deaf blind as well, correct but mark. >>. >> yes, that's interesting.

one of my brothers is also deaf blind. and he has a completely different experience than me. his deafness and blindness is different. his communication style is different. he was born and raised in eritrea. i was born and raised in the united states. so we have some similarities. but then we also have differences. so we had to find a way to communicate. sometimes we use a braille computer keyboard, sometimes we use language . >> haben girma, july 20, 2015 . >> i love that date. >> why? >> july 20 was the announcement of the dean, it's an amazing feat because

that means i met president obama. the white house celebrated the 25th anniversary of americans with disabilities act and they invited advocates to come and celebrate . they also invited me to introduce president obama and vice president joe biden at the ceremony. and then that was an incredible honor. >> what was your interaction with the president like ? >>. [laughter] it was uneasy. i wasn't sure what to expect. some people when i meet them don't want to interact with me because they're nervous or uncomfortable. a lot of people don't like stepping outside of their comfort zone . typing is familiar but it's also still different to some

people so some people refuse and say no. president obama recently switched from voicing to typing i could access his words and he was a slow typist but i can read slowly so hewas a good communicator . >> you write your book you did not bring maxine to the white house . why not? >> sometimes when i travel with maxine , and milo, the conversation gets to the dog. i thought i would only have maybe two minutes with president obama and i was concerned that we would not talk about disability rights and accessibility. if my dog stole the show.

so i chose not to bring my dog because i was concerned that the conversation wouldbe about dogs . it probably wouldn't have. i'm sure you would have still talked to me about accessibility and inclusion , but that was one of my concerns . >> when you decided to write the book and go on tour, what were your biggest concerns after mark. >> i think a lot of authors get concerned that readers won't get the lesson. and that's really a common fear among authors. every reader interprets a story differently. i've gotten feedback from readers and there's been all differentkinds of feedback . some stories really stickwith readers. other stories , readers entirely missed the message.

it's been fascinating to me to get feedback from readers. i love hearing from readers and people can send me messages through social media . on twitter, facebook and instagram. my name is at haben girma so people can send feedback, what was your favorite part of the book, peter west and mark. >> i enjoyed all of the book, i'll just say that. miss, when people go to your website or to your social media site. and they type a message to you, what's the process that gets to your keyboard? how does that work -mark. >>. >> so the social media companies, facebook, twitter and instagram have accessibility teams. that have ensured that their

apps are accessible. it's not perfect, but it's similar to sending a message on twitter. software called screen reader usually, that's voiceover on my iphone . both it will convert the graphic images on the screen and the information on screen to speech. so the only time text is easy to read, but images in the video are difficult area that some people include image descriptions. a lot of people don'tinclude image descriptions . and certainly to access a video there needs to be a transcript of the video. and the captions help individuals to adapt and cite it. i can't actually see captions but i still encourage people to add captions so that deaf people who can see can use their captions.

>> haben girma, my favorite part of your book is the fact that you like to have your situation described to you if you're unaware of it. tell me about the boss, who's in here, what is she wearing, questions likethat seem very important to you . >> you know, people are really important to me and i can learn about a lot about a person when i asked them to describe the setting. some settings if i ask them todescribe, they immediately describe the food . others then will tell me about the animals they see let the dogs for the cats that are in the room. other focus on jewelry, so how someone describes a setting as tells me a lot about thatperson . >> where our mom and dad after mark.

>> mom and dad are in the area. >> they live close by to you? >>. >> relatively, yes. >> are they still worried about you mark. >> yes. they're still concerned and wants me to be seen which is understandable . they'llalways be my parents . >> let's close with this. you write in your book i like my deaf blind world. it's comfortable, familiar . it's all i know. it's my normal. >> yeah. i don't wish to be cited and hearing. i'm comfortable in and happy with what i have. i do love increasing my skills and abilities and talents. so as someone were to offer

me a solution that would allow me to hear, and all the information around me, i'll take it. if someone offered you the ability to fly, i'll take it. until then, i can be content taking airplanes, but i'm always happy to improve and advance my skillsand abilities . >> here's the book, "haben". the deaf blind woman who conquered harvard law and she has been our guest on book tv along with claire baldy . >> ..

providing the first hand account of condition ford migrant families hope to u.s. southern border and psychiatrist professor kelly harding will explore the link between medical and physical health. tonight at 6:45 p.m. eastern on c-span2's booktv. check you program guide for more information. [inaudible conversations] >> good evening. good evening. i'm steve wieber with the library's public affairs staff and i want to welcome you and thank you for being with us tonight, and thanks to randy day books, our frequent and favorite collaborator, and of course one of the nation's great independent book