this point. i think that's where i put my emphasis a lot less on the state house or the white house and a lot more on the church house. if politics has done one thing to harm discourse, it's created this concept of the other. whenever there is an other, that other becomes the enemy. it's easy to demean them, dehumanize them and set them apart. unless we start relating to the fact that there is an inherent godlike in all of us. it breaks down our ability to put others on the other side and to demonize them. >> you can watch the entire interview with liberty university professor, ron miller online at booktv.org. simply search for his name at the top of the page. [inaudible conversations]

... [inaudible conversations] >> okay. greetings, everyone. my name is ted. i'm the editor of frederick douglass in brooklyn and a professor of journalism. at st. joseph's college in clinton hill here in brooklyn. i want to welcome you to the brooklyn book festival panel-and assure you that books for sale are available in the courtyard

after the panel. the authors will be deeply grateful for your support. our panel today includes mr. matt tie even by. -- taibbi who is a rolling stone kole jim nuss and hi latest book is "hate inc." the next is jonathon mettle. hi book is "dying of whiteness" and also a professor of sociology and psychiatry at vanderbilt university. and -- to my right, the president of new american leaders, an organization that promotes the incoming -- new immigrants into politics and her book is "people like us, the in the wave of candidates knocking at democracy's door." thought we would start with a

moment of silence for bill deblasio's presidential campaign. and now continue. so, we'll start with matt. so can you tell us what is holiday pate inc.. --"" hate inc." >> start it of as rethink of manufacturing consent. a book i was influenced by a lot before i joined the journalism business myself, and i thought it would be interesting to go back and look at it, whether the model held up in the internet age, whether nation chenged since 1988 or '89 but ended up being a lot out bow he business of journalism has changed in the last 30 years, particularly the

commercial strategies of our business. i a lot of things that i've lived through personally there are a lot of pressures in the business that are new. we have a very divided landscape now as opposed to when i was greg up and my father who is also a television reporter, came up through the business, when there were only a few media companies and all the networks were trying to get the widest possible audience. we now have a completely atomized and fragmented media landscape where the fox business model, which they pioneered in the 90s, which is let's forget about going for the whole audience, let pick pick out a demographic and dominate it by feeding them news store that's like and now it's common across the board in the media landscape, something you see in cnn and msnbc and fox and the daily caller on the other side, and what that means for the

media business is that we have understood -- learned that in the easiest way to keep our audiences is to feed people bad news but some other group they don't like, of course fox has been doing that for a long time. on the other side but this has begun to happen on the blue state media as well and i think it'sing a send waited divisions and rank ran core in our sew hate to that is really negative reports now he are kind of quietly disturbed by it because the feel pressure to throw red meat to their audiences and created a disincentive to speak to at the whole audience when you do journalism and that's what the book it about. traces the history of the business, why we use the kind of objective going for the whole audience approach early, previous to the 80s the end of the fairness doctrine which incentivized companies to stop

doing that and the commercial pressures that exist now and that's really what it is the segmentation of the media landscape and how to get out of it. there are no easy answer. >> in the book you make riffs re to trounce as a product of crash fire. >> can you explain. >> the cross-fire is sort of the template for modern media. one thing that happened with -- about often of things that happened in the 80s that radically affected ore business. one was the development of the 24 hour news landscape which suddenly put pressure on the news business to create tons and tons of content, rather than a couple of news broadcasts a day and one newspaper per day. suddenly we had oceans of time to fill and one thing the networks found out was that one thereof easiest and cheapest ways to develop content -- the first thing they found out was the best kind of story was a visual breaking news story like ache baby down a well, a

submarine that sinks to he bottom of the ocean, something that it dramatic, pictures and we want to see what's happening every minute, people have to stay tuned in. but that's expensive. you have to send a screw out, all these production costs, and the cheaper thing is just to put two idiotsen screen and have them argue witch other because it has the appears of action but a phony kind of product and -- but people get very heavily invested in. and cross-fire was a very successful show that sent a trained audiences to consume not only media but politics in a certain way. they understood that not only their really only two ideas in the world, there's left and right, democrat and republican, conservative and liberal, but those two ideas can never come to an accommodation. they in the agree about anything. must also be fighting because the premise of she show doesn't work. the rooting interest stop if they turn on cross-fire and

agree. the show is a dud. and so through the years they found that you don't have to just do a penal show. you can do the whole news that way and that is where we are now. we really instead of having new york we have basically channels, whole candles on one side of the cross-and that's what the media and is it's become very destructive. >> what but when the news media agrees but chooses a dump story line like you mentioned about john mccain and the pentagon's budget. >> yeah. i think that -- so, the classic example of how news media works. you have the 2018 military budget which had the largest single year increase in our history. $82 billion, which is an enormous sum of now. what it costs to do a year of the iraq war, and when the budget finely passed, the lead story on most of the networks

wasn't about the massive increase or what that meant or what was in it, there were now terms of nuclear weapons in there that wasn't in most of the stories the big story was that everybody led with was that donald trump left out -- failed to congratulate john mccain or henged when when he signed the bill because mccain's name was on the bill. so classic outrage media. both republicans and --s were jut it. hash tag resistance crowd was upsvelte about it because john mccain represented the kind of older, respectable kind of politician and we don't take well to insulting that kind of person, and the republicans were upset as well. so, that's just an example of how commercialized media works. just ignore the important story bus it's complicated. it's bipartisan raising the military bug and take the quit hit that gets people upset and they republic noone and keep reading and watching and that's

why we have lousy media. weapon don't have to do the in depth store. we can keep you watching doing something dumber. >> so let's cheng gears. jonathan, your book is call "dying of whiteness." as oppose told "the dieing of whiteness." can you display whine ii didn't decide if i'm talk drown stream mixes of what matt is saying or the upstream implications. my book represents about seven or eight years of research i did in the midwest and the south and i really look at the rise of politics that claim to make america and particularly white america great again. what i found basically just summarize the main argue remember this politics that claim to restore working there is a white america to greatness end up making many lives, men people's lives, including working class white lives, harder, sicker and many case cases quite literally shorter. i went to the book traverses

topics including guns, resistance to the affordable candle act, tax cult that's other eadvice ritz schools and interviews in kansas and tennessee where i teach, and in missouri, and what i found was that on one hand the politics that those positions represent, on one hand, really represent a return to an ideology that many people increasingly agreed with, this idea of kind of antigovernment, anti-immigrant, program politics but just from a demographic and statistickiccal level that it were as dangerous to working class white supportes as were asbestos or second hand smoke or not wearing seatbelts in cars. the data shows how much they literally decrease people's life spans by quite measurable degrees and makes sense. here are states that for example could have adopted medicaid expansion but decided not to.

here's states that had common sense gun laws and then instead what happened was guns flooded the public sphere and what happens as a physician was this took accumulative effect owns public health and i'm writing as an academic and also someone who grew numb missouri and live in tennessee. so this is where i live hi and become was aren't out of frustration because to the politic of what was upending what had been sense of collaboration and instead this idea that basically immigrants and pioneers are gaming the skim, that people are out to get you, the minute that took hold in politics, it had dramatic negative effects. really for all working class and middle income people, including the people who you would the book about the benefit progress politics. >> call its what's the matter with missouri, tennessee and kansas?. so tell us about missouri, the gun issue in missouri.

>> that's a perfect example because it's not overtly obviously about whiteness per se. grew up in kansas city. my parents are upset with right now because i'm having the panel during the kansas city football game, and the missouri that i de -- delayed, thank you -- i did not pay this man, but the missouri that i grew up in, there were many different political opinions. and people who had never touched a gun and didn't want to good near one and there was a system in place that was kind of maybe a little uneasy at times but a equill lib brohm. i you wanted a gun in a state like missouri you could get one. but to carry a gun in public you had to go to the sheriff's

office and be interviewed and get a permit and really was a responsibility, sometimes there were shooting tests you had to take, showing proficiency and the year 2008 there's a dramatic shift in state governance in which politicians -- the rise of the tea party and extreme right and the nra becomes a far more dominant force in state politics and what they did between 2008 and 2015 was really upended the gun flurries the states to the point where you could be 18 years old and walk into walmart and walk out with an ar-15 and nobody asked you a question go to a gun show and do that, and nobody would even ask you for any kind of test. so, really part of the story is what happens when that happens in a state, a place like missouri, where it becomes far, far easier to get guns and one thing i found was that it -- if you just don't think but guns when they're being shot it changed the way people interacted with each oomph white open care patriots, i went on a

march actually as part of the research, walking through african-american areas of st. louis, hole us up their ar-15s, african-american pastor who i interviewed for the book saying, we're suppose told be like the face of gang bangers and stuff but we're just afraid of white people right now and all these guns changed the ways that people enter acted but there was another story beneath the news story which was as guns became more and more prefer lent in missouri, there was a dramatic rise in white gun suicide and so the kind of -- the most painful part of the research was i sat in on support groups for families who had lost children or spouses or grandparents to gun suicide in the very southern part of missouri and no no matter your politics they're nothings like the pain that was in that room, but the interesting thing was people would come to the interviews with me, having lost family members to gun suicide

but they would be wearing camouflage and bringing their ar-15s and did that to tell me that's terrible thing happened to us but it's not in the gun's fault. so we would interrogate -- i grew up in missouri, people i knew growing up but i interrogated what does it mean to say it's not the gun's fault and what do you imagine the gun doing for you and that became the most powerful part of all the research if did. >> we'll come back to the other two states. so, can you tell us about your analysis of new immigrant candidates, the -- what they face on the whole, also writing about candidates at all levels of government from city council to state and federal legislatures. >> yes, this is a very hopeful book. i just want to start by saying that. and ironically you -- might

think that immigrants who under attack and always and have been facing attacks for several administrations now, would be really discourages by democracy this of reefs being the most optimistic americans. we believe in american democracy anding a everything we possibly can now but have been doing everything we possibly can to build the democracy that we came here believing that we were coming to, and the book i've written is organized around what i started to see as a systemic obstacles to voices like mine being in politics if tell the stories of other 11 people who ran and won office in 2016 or before. and the reason that i got this book out last year is because i

wanted to tell the hopeful stories and wanted to share that this had been happening prior to the election of donald trump, and that even in the year that donald trump won in arizona, for example, two women whos stories i tell my in book won state office, one of whom is formally undocumented and one who is half palestinian and half latina. even n the year trump won in jeremy, a gay korean american won state legislative office. and it's was important to analyze the issues that have existed in our democracy long for the election of donald trump. there's really unified enemy, the ang of us in this room have a unified enemy in donald trump and the current incarnation of the republican party, but when this unified enemy guess away, and when we have someone that is

a relatively centrist republican or centrist democrat for that matter, that many of us who are not experiencing the day-to-day trauma of being working class, of being a person of color, being an immigrant, go back to business as usual, and i think that it's so hopeful to see all of you in this room as well on this beautiful sunday, one of the few we'll have for the next few months in new york, because i do think that there's a legal of energy in our -- and belief in the importance of us in our democracy but what has -- what i want to encourage folks to do is think about what is happening in our local and state level, and the example that you gave of missouri, and what we saw happen with the tea party elections in previous mid-terms, howl we chose to ignore this as some sort of marginal thing that was happening, that we in new york didn't have to think about or that we who had certain access,

didn't have to think about. the story is about the issues of public finance, the officers redistricting and not the way we think about it as gerrymandering but to have districts leak the one we have in new york city where the council members elected by a group of constituents in a certain geographic area, which allows for working class people, people who don't have generational wealth, people who are not as well known, to get elected. i talk about dark money through the story of hose jose, uniform eme'erly undocumented person who won a seat 0 on the anaheim city counsel and disney pent a million dollars trying to defeat him and make sure hi wasn't elected. these are examples how i address systemic issues through the stories of individuals and just mention, because ted asked me

but you hand, i tell the story of ilhan omar in this book -- >> specific question. something i didn't know which is that her district is 63% white. >> but an increasingly diverse district that has a large number of somali americans and also a lot of young people, and i think -- i say this because ilhan -- many of us came to know ilhan when she got elected to congress or perhaps many of you got to know ilhan through a tweet by donald trump but ilhan whose story i tell in the book was elected to the minnesota state legislature in 2016 and defeated a 44 year incumbent. 44 year incumbent, american who was eye electricked to office before she was born, and what that means is that there's a power of incumbent si that transcended the changes in the district that had transcended

this particular legislator's ability to serve the district. it's not so much that they had been in offers for -- she had been in offers for so long but the sad lost touch with the reason show got elected, was to be accountable to their constituents and i think having someone like ilhan in that position she built a campaign infrastructure that when keith ellison whose see she how to occupied -- decided not run for congress in order to run for a statewide seat in minnesota she had a campaign infrastructure to rely on. so i kind of am a missionary for state and local elections because they help people build the chops they need to run for congress or statewide election. >> sure. okay. come back to the other examples you mentioned. so, matt, you have a chapter on trump and also the wwe candidate, and you go further into depths with that analysis

and everyone seems the footage of him with vince mcmahon and all that. >> that was drug the 2015-2016 campaign, when i was following trump around, all of the other reporters were picking up books about rise and fall of the third third reich, book bout nationalism, authoritarianism and i decided the thing to do was to start reading books but wrestling, that would explain trump's candidacy butch he. read controversy creates cash by a wrestler, tremendous and people in the business will tell you this i talked to wrestlers about this, he is a classic heel act, and the problem i'm talking about in the book is that the wwe and pro wrestling is a

brilliant, very profitable media formula that works on a very simple theatrical device, pits a good guy, the baby face, vs. versus bad guy, the heel and they play up could ton front ex-the heels job is to taunt everybody and say outrageous things and get the crowd upexpect the idea is to divide the crowd into two groups, when iowa root north good guy to win and who insecretly rooting for -- secretly hope north good guy to hit the bad guy in the face with a chair. their brilliance of this and people who follow wrestling will at the you this formula doesn't work unless you have a good heel. the more evil and more provocative the eel heel is the more money everybody makes and that's what happened with the news media in 2015 and 2016 and has continued. cable profits have gone up 37% since trump announces his run for the presidency because he is the perfect heel. makes everybody money on both

side of the compile the cycle is the same. he was in every confrontation with anyone, whether it's within their republican party or hillary clinton he does the heel act. taunts the opponent and says outrageous things and he eventually goads the audience into taking sides and his whole strategy is to eventually turn headlines in fav and do this by manipulating the news media into building up the conflict because they have a natural desire to sort of play up the equilibrium between the combatant 'because that makes the fight more equal and will trachemore viewer and this is what trump did throughout 2015 and 2016. always makes the opponent seem like a pompous, self-righteous good guy like jeb bush was the classic example. he taunt's bush's wife, says bush is soft on immigrants because his wife is mexican. bush acts outraged.

he in public he shows outraged dignity and trump insits his mother and he says hi mom is a strong and trump says she should be running and turns into a win for trump on the media front. what i'm trying to get to is this is a -- it works as entertainments it's perfect entertainment which is why news companies are making a ton of money. they know that this is a formula that will draw people in, and they're using a very manipulative formula, especially with audiences who hate trump. they're showing you images of things they know are upsetting that will scare you and then offer you microdoses of relief and solidarity by sort of offering you solutions, they'll show you picture of an opposition politician who will promise to fight against him and the news reader will show some solidarity with the poll fix you feel like you're doing something by watching the show.

you're not. you're watching a show. and that's the secret to the ratings that's why ratings have been up and trump hag manipulated this brilliantly doing it again and like the to do it again especially if he goes against somebody who doesn't know how to play the game next year. so that is what that was about. >> you describe it as addictive infotainment. >> absolutely. >> like smoking. >> and people are -- will tell you, taken to people who are internet analysts and they'll tell you this is absolutely a new form of addiction, that is very nearly as toxic as smoking or drinking. people become very, very addicted to, dope mean rushes they get when they cleaning on media and get rushes of anger that are followed by rushes relief and solidarity they get by watching friendly faces on twist and that's why people spend all day long clicking bugs it's an addiction, it's like smoking this feel of your phone is part to the addiction the

same the cigarette or the lighting over the lighter is part of the addiction. >> it's a good segway into john jonathan's discussion of health care in tennessee, particularly during the period in which there was a -- a period of obamacare and medicaid expansion, that they were -- the governor of tennessee was trying to putting for an alternative plan to undercut obama kaz and rejecting medicaid. >> i was going to fake a joke that people are taked to c-span booktv. anyway, i think it's actually a perfect example because people aren't just divided randomly. they're divided at least in the stuff die based on existing fault lines that maybe have been improved over time or things like that, but what i'm looking at are the historical fault lines around race particularly in south and midwest and how easity is sometimes to manipulate people opposite you tap into historical anxietieses

and health insurance is a perfect example. the research in tennessee was down in a state where there's a long history of who has the right to have health insurance what, kind of body are insurable and even though the affordable care act which is what is was studying in tennessee in 2012 to 2015 made a ton of sense no the state there was an holyilache fault like, tennessee and other states, white people got health insurance and look people were property and they were -- there was a specific kind of slave insurance. the idea of whose body is worth insuring and something that had played out in the history of the south, at least, every time there had been some kind of attempt to nationalize the healthcare system from truman and on down, and every time there was this kind of sense of, what is going to help when you desegregate the hospital wards or something like that,

something that tapped into race and i watched this happen with the affordable care act story. the interesting this about the affordable care act in tennessee it was manna from heaven for the state. tennessee has very poor health outcomes. very poor community health. 70% of the population has some form of obesity or chronic illness. tennessee is a state that trade to insure all of the people because many health insurance companies are in tennessee and there was a prime minister called ten-care and tried to give everybody insurance in the state in the 19 anothers but they wasn't bankrupt because people were so sick they couldn't do it. so in the middle of this stuff, a state we poor health outcomes that trade to insure its people come this affordable care act, a program who at least in name in 2010 when its started to roll out, was going create a safety net of health insurance for people. itself was going to provide funds for community health.

it was exactly the problem that tennessee faced. and the research i do in the book shows how initially there was support for this. there were a lot of sick people who were down with what was happening. and my colleagues and i basically did focus groups. 30 or 40 focus groups across the state interviewing black and white men, along the way starting in 202008, 2010, 2012 2013 some and we saw that these messages that that basically immigrants and minors are going to game the system became increasingly powerful messages, people remembered there were posters of obamas a an african witch doctor and so the minutes the debate i became racialized its tapped into historical tensions, and again i just tell one research story that was profoundly powerful. we did a focus group in rural tennessee with white men who were chronically ill, were

literally dying, came to the focus groups with oxygen masks, with one guy hood a walker, he was 35 because he was having live failure and too painful to walk with confidence these guys, here's the affordable care act, possibility of helping you, and they said we know it might help us and this is a quote from one research subject, he said but there's no way i'm signing up for a program that will help mexicans and welfare queen, this idea that somebody else will game the system was such a powerful divisive tool that within five years of marketing or politics, people were willing to give their own health care. it became a lesson for the messages like medicare for all, for example, pre-existing tensions and the million by think availablized or tap into the racial faultlines it's thed -- i'm not going to say it's illogical. just difference kind of logic if your logic is there's a hierarchy and don't want to ruin it.

when its taps into that's it's not like everybody with say health care, that's great for me. it really was the part out tennessee was a story but the depths to which people felt that they identified with this hierarchy to the point where they're literally willing to give up their own health care. >> and can you briefly describe the candidate issue of disparity in do education. >> kansas was another story. die have a lot of hopeful stories in my book also. i'm debby donor right now. i also -- debby downer right now eye. aim immigrant and -- born in not in this country and i do end the book by saying that there are systems of equality that have been in place actual my in places leak the south so it's not like this always has been this way. so hopefully have time for kumbiya moment but i will say that kansas was the last part of the story which is would a story about real where what -- kansas

had this fifth or sixth ranked public school system in the united states after brown vs. board of education, kansas actually very seriously i rested in the public education, and it had tremendous results. that 4th and 8th grade reading exam for students across the state were -- showed dramatic improvement and that was true for white kids and also for latino kids, african-american kids. kansas was a top ten public school system across the board. very positive rates of going on to job market, so there was a source of pride in the education system. then this guy named sam brownbeck comes down the pike, and he basically says, the government is jobbing you, cut away all these kind of things and there were massive tax cuts and between starting in in 2008,

2010, 2012, kansas cut its public school system more than any state in the country pretty much, and there's a hopefully reader friendly kind of data in my book but if you want to see the remarkable effect of what happens when you cut a school system. look at what happened to kansas. within two years of these cuts, it fell totally off the cliff. all these things that were markers of success. so kansas foal 42nd, 43rd in country in terms of national examples. dropout rates sky rocketed and part of the -- i guess ironic twist is when i interviewed people in kansas who -- i'd said how could you support this to your own schools and i got a fair amount of the kind of answers i got other states. people old told me minner are gaming the still and shouldn't be taking taking our tax dollar. western person said he hear the black school districts are taking all the tax money and

buying party buses for football games. i said do you have any party buss? and i that are week, dude, we don't even have textbooks. all these urban myths about what was happening but turn out that people who suffered the greatest from these budget buts were white kansans and so far and away the people who suffered from these politics the worst in terms of high school dropout rates, actually i show in the book, high school dropout correlates with a five to seven year shorter life span so id a up how many life years was this cost exactly politics that are were supposed supposed supposedg minorities ended up penalizing white americans, white kansans far more than anybody else. >> so, you mentioned ma rain know in -- joe marino -- in

anaheim and disney spending a million dollars to defeats him. and he only raised $70,000. >> that's a story of organizing. and the value of having a candidate who was connected to the commune and used organizing and people power as a way to win. but it's also a story of the way that dark money particularly after the passage of citizens united, has affected races at the very local level. , that there is an able to hide the way that money gets to a candidate; that didn't use to exist before, but that chapter, the -- there's several sections in the book and one section is generally around the role of money in politics and jose's chapter is about dark money and then i mentioned isala and athena who used the clean election system in arizona. a whole range of public financing systems.

he the one we have in new york is matching dollars. so i as a candidate even without a lot of money can go to people and raise money and then get a -- now it's an eight to one match in new york city and there's work being down get that matching funding program happening at the state level, because imagine what albany could look like if it wasn't -- a couple of things in al ban system one is that until this year, i think, the people were getting paid $78,000 a year for what as ostensibly a part-time job in new york $8,000 is not batted but now there's raise is for the next three years. so it means that someone who is working class, has student loans, doesn't have generational wealth, could with the combination of the public financing system and a salary that is a legitimate full-time liveable wage, can actually run for office and then serve.

when you look at states like arizona and colorado and florida and georgia, where the legislature was really set up -- you -- we have been talking about systems systems and peopln say the system is broken but i always say that the system is working exactly like it's supposed to. the system was set up by our founding fathers who were wealthy white land-owning males to work for wealthy, white, land-owning males so when you look another who is in congress and the state legislature in this moment, it is working just the way it spues suppose told work forever the type of people you work. if you live in arizona and earn $24,000 a year as state legislature, it's a smarttime job and glory in january and march or able. what kind of job -- how many of us have the kind of job we dock to the state legislature for four months out of year and then if you don't have another john then you can't make wage and

have this -- all around the country, we have mostly older people, mostly either older because they're retired or older because they're wealthy, younger folks who are wallet and and can afford it or have a partner. the reason this is even more than the cost of campaigns. what we are paying our representatives to do the work that we want them to do is particular passion point for me, because i don't think we'll change the kind of policies that are being made at the state and local level if we don't have the types of people who are ian that pressley says it's the people closest to the pain that can help shape the policy and if people are not experiencing the pain of having their kids in public schools, not being able too access health care, feeling unsafe when their family member goes to school or work, then it's really hard for them to account for that and i think all

saturdays with the lack only acknowledgment the type of people who should be making policy are regular people. and that is not at all company ends coincidental. in the founding fares whats citizen is legislate-under legislatures and on friday politico did a list of 100 or 99 ways to improper our political system and i argue for full-time state slurs because i think if you're not getting people who can afford to be in office, we're not going get tee kind of policy we want. someone argues for paying congress members less because some people believe that $175,000 is not -- is too much money to be paying congress members about what i can tell you quite emphatically if we reduce that wage, then you're not going to get the people that we're seeing now coming into office, who have to have a very realistic concern about -- about

making a living wage. this connection between politics and economics, between our democracy and the democratic even he quality and structural inequality we're seeing in our economy and democracy are very, very tied. >> okay. can you go back to marino and tell us what was disney worried about. >> disney was worried about their particular -- they basically run the city of anaheim, or at least attempt to, and so building that would affect the local communities and push people out for the sake of economic can for disney's expansion. that was the particular concern they had. >> so that plays out here as well, talking but sunset park.

save that for another conversation. but so let's do another round and talk about the 2020 election where things -- how things are shaping up. matt, you have actually written favorably but elizabeth warren in the past. talk but her work in the bailout that is when she first started -- became prominent. >> yeah. elizabeth warren dish was actually one of the first people who suggest elizabeth warren's candidacy for the president say a long time ago, i have more concerns now that i'm on the campaign trail, but elizabeth warren i think really stood out in the period between 2008 and maybe 201 because she was one of the only thing as was sews he

exposed after 2008 because whole ranges of financial products that had been figured heavily in the crash, particularly derivatives, credit defaults, swaps, debt obligations, i would 90% of the memberes didn't know what those were, i remember particularly during the dodd-frank reform act negotiations, they had a terrible problem trying to find somebody who write the portion of the bill that involved clearing of derivatives because there was not a single men who had somebody on staff at that time was familiar with the issue so they are calling up professors and asking them to volunteer to help put this legislation together. this was something that elizabeth warren at least in other words hour subprime pourings worked, howl they were turned into security, pooled, and so that was impressive.

she was impressive when she led the requesting bet ceo of jb morgan chase, diamond. she understand what happened, he understood why it was a responsible and unacceptable for the company not to be aware of an overnight $6 billion loss, for instance, and what that -- what kind of problem that represented for a federal government that was bailing these companies out. so, yeah, i think that was something that really spoke tremendously in her favor and that's probably one of the reasons why she has a good reputation, especially with american liberals. >> do you that think that translates into a winning ticket? >> my concern with elizabeth warren and i like her personally -- is just comes from covering campaigns in the past, one of the contributing factors to the rise of donald trump was

this widespread growing suspicion and mistrust of institutions and experts, and you see this all across the country. most americans, most voters don't have exposure billionaires, they don't meet the people who actually run fortune 500 companies but they do have a lot of interaction with corporates middle management, with people who are lawyers, educators, people who work in universities, and there's a tremendous amount of tension between the sort of middle intelligentsia in the country and working class voters, especially red states, and when what i worry about with elizabeth warren is her argument is predicate on this -- the same argue. that democrats have made over the course of the last 20-30 years, a lot of super smart detailer orienterred politicians

like al gore, john kerry, mike due cass kiss in the past. >> hillary clinton. >> hillary clinton, and i would say hillary and warrant don't have a ton in common but this an aery we that. i have a plan for that. we'll fix it. this is -- we're going to be good government on steroids. that whole thing. i just am not sure how much traction that is going to have going forward, and that's one over the reasons why -- it's gotten better now but if you look at the polls, the head-to-head polls we warren as opposed to, say, biden or sanders or this other candidates versus trump, she lagged a little hit behind. maybe that explains that. that and the fact she has was could eye a fox news focus for a while for other reasons. >> okay. jonathan, what extent do you think met care for all and other policy issues like that can help

overcome the entrenched racial hostilities you found. >> in i think it's kind of joining both of these other tensions. which is i think that it will be important and interesting to see how that plays out but also think there are caveats i try to highlight in my work, because on one hand who done want health care? if you're sick you want to go to the doctor. other things that were huge in the south that affordable care act helped with. it one just help insurance, it was being able to afford medication, medical bankruptcies in states like kentucky, that did the medicaid expansion, had far fuhrer medical bankruptcies so many different factors in states like kentucky, which is the one state in the south at that time actually adopted the affordable care act got better and people saw dish do at love kentucky versus tennessee comparisons and people in kentucky started going to the

doctor for routine visit. they were less sick when they went to the doctor. they didn't avoid medical treatment because of cost. all these things. so people in kentucky, their life got better, and three or four years into the kentucky experiment, what happened is there was another governor who came down the pike and he basically said, minorities and immigrants are gaming the system let's do antigovernment and all this stuff and people voted out their own health care in a way. so part of broadcast deutsch doesn't soundster he helpful. >> their arecastat to medicare for all because the are tensions and how you address the tensions. the times where i'm given pause is when i talk to progressive audiences and there's this assumption the minute people get on this health plan they're going to see holiday how beneficial heck hick is for. the and i don't know the answer to this but he question i have is how much too grew take history into account? because you're just stepping into a 200 year argument right

here, and so if people were going to get down the minute they got health care they would have been happy with the affordable care act for all, and so i think that there are some caveats here, and how to address that i think is very important. >> okay. and what's your prognosis in terms of the slate of candidates that you foresee. >> i'll just -- not going to -- i will say that campaigns are won in the field, not in rooms like this or won by polls for sure. and one of the concerns that i have is the ongoing conversation about this kind of trump-obama swing voter, the it would working class, and to the expense of -- there are are 2.2 million people who became citizen us since 2016 and eight states in which the margin of

victory could be closed just by relying on those newly naturalized citizens. eight states that trump won. no one is having those conversations. the work that gets done in those communes is primarily by underresourced nonprofits the candidate who can win the election is the candidate who is going to use the old math for sure because i do not think that we should be ignoring any constituent group but i think someone who can mobilize this group of voters who feels marginalized for economic and other issues -- ropes, but can also mobilize voters who largely ignored is a potentially the candidate who can win this race because it is going to be won in the field not going to just be won on tv. how many of us are going to watch those debates, et cetera, right? >> a lot of candidates at the local level and state level. >> so, two things i will say.

running is i do thing there ick some work being done to mobilize the local and state candidates. it's not the president cal candidate that will knock on the door if if again lot and state voyeurs that are trusted messengers to and they importance and the last thing is that immigration as an issue and as divisive issue is going to play out in the next election cycle and for several afterwards and so i think we -- it's all on us to really be able to bring complexity to that conversation, most of us know that people love immigrants as individuals. they just don't like immigration as an issue, and so to the extent that you are in your dining rooms and your work places, you can be having conversations about what the actual message is and what the reality is, it's really important. >> okay. i think we're out of time here. no one mentioned the kid from

brooklyn, bernard sanders. so i just -- >> i wanted to mention him. books will be available outside. [applause] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversation] >> now the final author event this one on political movements throughout history from the brooklyn book festival will guinn just a few minutes.

>> while we wait here's another author on the same topic. this is robby safe talk about this back, panic attack, young radicals in the age of trump. >> would what seeing how to a lot of attempts to shut down speakers who come to college campuses. even the professors of the active gist students who are ported hely on progressive left say they can't have conversations with these students, they risk offend.ing them and if they do their jobs could be the trouble because thaw could be investigates and it's changing our culture very quickly and dramatically toward this cancel everybody. everybody who is problematic has to be run out of public life and that's comping from thing active gist con kin gent on the young left. >> and all on the left, not on the right. >> very much on the right as well and i spend a schapp at the in by -- chap fer any book and talk us but ill liberalism overty right, particularly the

alt-right which has gotten attention like the radical left, small in number, but loud, vocal, and has had huge effect in the realm of social media and harassing people and making it unpleasant to be online, you you say intersectionallity is the operating system of the murder left. what does hat mean. >> guest: intersectionalat is a term that comes from sociology. kind the late 1980s. used by sociologists to describe how -- if you are person of color, historically you would have experienced racism. i you're a woman, sexism, and so on and so forth. if you are black woman you have multiple sources but you're poles owed give the most depressed person in the activist circle the most authority and most deference. only they can be the experts on sources of progression and on

activism. so starts get a little thorny does this make me the most opress senior what pout these? always lent itself temperature an inkrissingly fragile mental health kind of activism on campuses if see young people who are think are exaggerating the extent of their ptsd. there's -- when he talk to prefers and they everyone in any classroom says they're a survivor or trauma. it's doubtful but they're saying that because having ptsd gives you authority as an activist. so it's incentivizing people see themselves as mentally unwell which is a bad thing. >> how did we get here. >> they're talk proud social and cultural change over a long period of time so there's no easy answers. do think that the changing regime or norms of safety culture in schools and in parenting have probably led to a generation that through no fault

of its own is a little more coddled than the previous generations and less resilient. i'm not blaming young people. our schools have change dramatically. going would to in 190s won't find police officer in a sing school in america. today there are police officers in half of all public high schools. schools are actually very safe. this headlines to the contrary are misleading and crime has fallen dramatically. young less at risk of kidnapping than ever about but you get the idea from going to school, from seeing parents arrested for hitting kids play by themselves, those kind of thing you get the idea that it i dangerous, and so the purpose of school is to protect me, right? to make me feel safe. and then when safety gets stretched to include emotional safety as well, i think that's when you start to see this tide against words that wound or words that hurt. i need to be protected from that the say became the school is

responsible for my physical well-being. >> is this a in your view a good trend or not? >> i think it's very concerning again i'm critical of the right as well. don't want to be causing too much alarm. don't think it's generational problem so much. the people we're talking about are a small subset of a radical fringe. however, they are having i think poisonous effect on our social discussion, our culture. it's miserable to be online. we're seeing -- young adult november veil authors are canceling books because their young reed readers saying you can't do that. a lot of conversations being closes off because a small number of militant radical people on the political extremes are saying so. and i think that is bad. >> host: you give as an example in your book panic attack, the movie, the documentary, for --

the movie boys don't cry. >> guest: yes. >> host: what happened. >> guest: they invited at reed college, very progressive liberal arts college. in ported, invited kimberly pierce the director on the groundbreaking film exposed american audiences what it's like to be a transgender person. and the activists at this college, they shut down the event, wouldn't let her speak. put up signs saying expletives at her. vial things. hated her. why? she had a progressive film she cast hilary swank in it in and she is not a trans person so having cast this -- once a trannings person should have been playing a trans role so they hated already for that his so short sighted and self-defeating. wouldn't have been as big a film without hilary swank.

that's the example of at each other's throats and self-defeating tactics that activist are. he bracing because of the -- embracing because therefore the influence of intersectionallate. >> charles murray he and the river who invited him injured. >> guest: right. literally attacked. physically assaulted by protesters who thought it was so important to stop what was supposed supposed to be a debate between purposery's privilege and a left of center perspective and but they don't want that to happen. when i interviewed from the book and said down you think you make charles murray look more sympathetic if your shouting them down and using violence? they say we're about safety. we are keeping the marginalized people in our community safe from the harm of charles murray's words and views. so if he allowed to speak we have contributed to the easterly moore mental unrest of the people we care about, which is

kind of really different idea, i think, how safety works. so much -- it's the root of so much of this. >> how small are this at right and tifa groups. >> guest: i think they're extremely small. we're talking about -- at many events dozens of people, maybe hundreds or thousands nationwide. and they feed each other. the far right shows up and then the far left and then they drove things at each other. >> the media shows. you don't want to -- news is things that happen so when these things happen you have to cover them. but the probable -- the challenge of the media is making them -- contextualizing them and not making these things seem liar they're happening more often than the actually are. but they are happening there was violence in portland against a journalist, a right of center journalist who write -- >> who is gay.

>> right, but he is -- because he is critical of antifa activities they said he has no right to cover us and they actually beat him up when he tried to videotape what they were doing, and antifa rejects the idea that people who disagree with them should have right order the far slight have rights. >> you can watch the entire interview online at booktv.org. just type to his name in the search box at the top of the page. >> here's conversation on historical political movements, live fro brooklyn book festival. >> good evening, everyone. it's almost evening. let's say late afternoon on the last day of summer.

i would like to let you in the that book biz the authors in this program can be purchased from barnes & noble outside the building where the authors will be signing the book after the program. authors, me talking to you, at the conclusion of this program, please go directly no your signing tables. at the conclusion of the program we ask the that arch leave the room sew audience members can be seated. the reality there ises no next program. so i also have taken acknowledge liberty in having an opportunity to have more q & ar-time with the authors so hopefully we can do that as well as long osgood we're not intruding upon everyone's sunday evening schedule. i'm anative new yorker, i like to say ninja for democracy, and the new york executive director of a national nonprofit call generation citizen weapon focus on transforming how civics education is taught in schools, something we might need in this moment and teaching young people how to advocate for change on

issues in their community. so its my pleasure honor to be here. appropriately dressed on message about the resistance against injustice i want to take a moment to d introduce all of "the mentalists" "the mentalists" and then i -- panelists and i'll jump in with questions leaving time for you have questions and the 35-40 minute work. i will start to my left, hello, sir. welcome. i'm going to introduce mr. ignacioty ebo known for his detective shane book series one of the for most crime fiction writer in he spanish speaking world today inch 2019 named head of mexico's -- a minister of literary culture. he is also the director othe acclaimed -- a literary festival? spain. a tireless social a cantyist, historian and author the

best-selling biography of the guevara. known as che. he has written books published in 28 countries and evidence several literary prizes including the-best crime fiction in spain three times, the 813 literary award for the best crime book in france and the best book of the year in italy. join me in welcoming our author. [applause] >> to my right, is a mr. mckesson, civil right activist focuses on issues of innovation, equity and justice. a leading voice in the "black lives matter" movement and cofounder of many of campaigns so let me call them out for you. join campaign 0-point organize, mapping police violence.org, our states.org and resistance manual.org.

working to provide citizens policymakers with common sense policies ensure equity. he also the host of the critically acclaimed pawed -- pod save the people. born and raised in baltimore, maryland, graduated from bolden college and has doctorate from new stool and maryland institute college of art. this most recent book is on the other side of freedom. the case for home. joan my in can being mr. mckesson. [applause] >> and then last but not least on my far right, is nick estes, nick is a citizen of the lower brule trikes, assistant professor in the american studies department in the university of new mexico. he co-grounded the revved nation, aen dodge yous resistance organization. for 2017 through 18 he was american democracy fellow at the charles warren center for studies in american history at harvard university. his research engages clonallism

and indigenous mysteries with a history of decolonization ex-u.s. imperial rhythm and environmental justice, anti-capitalism and the -- i'm tote live mispronouncing that -- a member of the oak lake writer society a network of indigenous writers committedded to defending and at vaned -- say it for me -- >> sovereignty cultures in history. he is the author of the book our history is the future, standing rock versus the dakota access pipeline and the long tradition of indigenous resistance which place into historical context the movement to stop the dakota access pipeline. the gelledded the fourth coming volume, standing with standing rock, voices from the no dapl movement. which draws together more than 30 contributors including leaders, scholars and activists

of the standing rock movement. join me in welcoming mr. estes to the panel as well. [applause] >> so with all of the house keeping out of the way i'm so honored and rivered to be their talk about stuff an important and timely, forever timely topic in our society. how do we continue to resist against injustice? and so i want to start -- is its okay to start with you? we'll start with nick first but i'm going to quote a quote from -- it was wassery slip 'er saying the language i the tool by which power is distributioned it is in the hand that we find legateway to liberation, to justice to freedom. i've been speed reading through the books when i was asked to moderate the panel. what struck me but the quote in particular is thinking how we all use language to convey opportunities, hope, but also

things frustrating and things that describe for me equity. so i want to give each of the authors a chance to reflect from their book about what language they use to be able to compel them to write this book and also why in this moment in this movement, what made them, what inspired them to write the book. i'll start on my far right with nix, asking you to read a selection from for your book and contextualize what started you to write this book. >> thank you. i'll just jump right in the afterat manufacture to october 27, 2016, raid on the 1851 treaty camp, blockading the dakota access pipeline he, a rancid smell permeated the camps. police and private security had heaped the camp's rem indians ceremonial items such as eagle feathers, pipes, medicine bums and imagined tents, sleeping

bags and teepees into a large piler in the entrance therefore he camp. cops and private security urinate on the items before returning them. one night after it was decided to ceremonially burn the europe soaked remnants, an elder gather young water protecters around a fire. she was dreaded in regalia she wore the day of the raid. hundreds of copper pennies hung by red ribbon from their dark blue dress. she told of her ancestors who were killed in the 1872 u.s. da co to war. theyed in to standing rock, krausing the missouri river not from from the location of the camp. after u.s. cavalry men massacred da tote coulds and lakotas in the white stone hill a hunt camp. this was to day exactly 150 years before dakota access private security unleashed a attack dogs on unarmed water

protect ores a nearby pipeline construction site. the day after christmas in 1862, soldiers gathered up 38 dakota men and boy and imprison end them. the irmedicine bundles were confiscated, heaped in a large pile and burned as they were led to the gallows singing their death songs. their crime? defending their nation and home lands. the same week that president insulin lincoln signed the emancipation proclamation freeing black slaves the signed the death sentences of 38 dakota patriot. the copper pennies had holes drilled into lincoln's ears will red ribbon threaded through hitch didn't listen, she said of the great emancipator, who we opened his ears. after 1876, battle of greasy grass la coat could women used

awls to carve holes holes holeso uncomfortable kuster another heroes. now president barack obama, in the north dakota governor' the sheriff who refused to listen. singers ban a prayer song and the tears fog from their eyes were the ancestors peeking through them and they were not tears of trauma because of liberation. we survived genocide after genocide she said and then danced and at the pennies suede will the flickering fire and smoke. behind her armed police were per 'perched on the hill and their headlights. this package comes at the end of a chapter title war which is talking about the 19th century indian wars against indigenous people on the northern plains. the reason why i ended with this

particular chapter is because in indigenous histories, especially written by white historians and american historians, the histories that kind of seek to apologize for the crimes of the united states, tend to either do one of two things, either locate that crime in the past, so it doesn't have any kind of relevance in the present, or to try to form some kind of argue. that we were -- it was bat in the past but the united states is on a moral trajectory of improving itself. and i think what standing rock did was collapse the history, the past history, with the present, that this was still an ongoing kind of indian war and the indian war had never really ended. and the other kind of element of this particular passage that i want to kind of for group is that typically indigenous it has theirs a very troubling strain

of indigenous history focuses on the injury itself or the trauma and the language of historical trauma which is incredibly important to understand and understand indigenous peoples are survivors of not just a past genocide but an ongoing genocide itself. however, i think that in itself is also a limited framing because it misses on the human element of how did our ancestors survive genocide? what propelled him into the future and whose vision offices freedom and liberation that brought them there and i think that's the takeway that it want to instill with this particular book. i wrote it for my 16-year-old self who needed something like this as a time when i didn't think that indians wrote books issue didn't know any indigenous author. i knew our own history but not a history i was taught to be proud of, and definitely not taught to

revere for its tenacity and resisting and even defeating the united states government in open battle in some instances. but then in this particular moment, facing down some of the most powerful forces on the planet, the richest industry -- the most powerful industry on the planet, the fossil fuel industry and we are in that particular geography, we have five of the ten poorest counties in the nation, and these people were standing there up against the richest people on the planet. the most powerful people on the planet. so, if we think about this in the context of the global climate justice movement it's indigenous people are protecting the air we all intrigue we see that being destroyed in the amazon, which is producing 20% of the world's oxygen. and we're protecting the clean water that you all drink, and that is not a resolved issue even here in brooklyn, or in --

where it's -- still indigenous land so i think this book itself, it's a play on words in saying that our history isn't that that is past but it's something that i think everyone should look at to understand that it's a future -- has always been a future oriented project and one premised on yates. >> it's interesting because during your book you talk about the tension between hope and living in the present day and the reality. i want to give you a chance to share from your book as well, and as mr. ignacio gets oriented in that regard, share with us doing what inspired you to write this book at this moment in the movement if you will. >> it is a -- it has been a long five years, if you saw us marching the street it 2014 it isn't because we thing marching was the most effective thing to.

do he if we stood still he would be arrested. it has been a long five years, one reason i wanted to write is we lived through so much, and i felt these things becoming memories and wanted to put them down. a tweeted aston a lot of tweets but i hadn't written longer than tweets about the thing is experienced and had been so in the movement it was in st. louis for the span of the protests and then i went home to baltimore and freddy gray got killed and a charles to north cherries -- northerly north charleston. the part i want to read is a clapper to called i can remember and this is a chapter about my mother. so, she left when he was three and every time i see her now i want to ask her why she left.

i want to ask if her thought about me. i want to ask her if she loved us because i've never thought but love as leaving. i wanted to tell her that a part of me began to prepare for people to choose to leech me one day like she did. and when i stop believing unconditional love when she left. i want to tell how how hard it was to hear people talk about their mothers and silently and not let the pain show on my face but never asked her why she left and told her the things in my mind because is can seal the pain in her eyes and wouldn't be another thing that broke her even ifs was broken by her. took me a while to learn nod to respond to pain with pin. i'm still learning. i used to call her mommy joan when ios younger develop. remember whether i dropped the mom where but and called her joan but it was when i was eight. didn't feel honest. so we never her anyway so wasn't like i would get in trouble. i wasn't until i was adult i explained her parents used to put her to sleep with alcohol.

she had been battling addiction and was in recovery when my oldest sister and i were born. both of our parents were. but one night one of my fathers friends invited lower to a party. she used and never looked back. there was no custody battle she left willingly. she told my father that we have a better life with him and the rest i guess is history. she mercy life when i was 30. only seen hear few times hundred holidays and also remembered her the slim woman and drugs had taken her from slim to slight and sharp. but something wag different ship gain its just the smallest amount of weight but what he fractured pounds she seemed to have in pride as she told me, i'm gaining weight. it's like the many years that that passed between moment offered sobriety i can remember enough of what the was like to know the person in front-me was done using. what i couldn't decide it what her sobriety meant to me. how do you make up for so much lost time and memories.

had many mother bud joan was not one of them. my great-grandmother helped me to race up until the begin offering middle school. i talked with a friend leak recently and realize i don't talk about her. not because she didn't play an incredibly important role in my life but because she played such an important role. when ios young i used to weak up in tears because i thought she could die and she assured me she be here tomorrow. realizeds was much older than my daughter a combination our our frequent doctor visits and made the think she would die. when died during any senior year income she took the music in the world with. one of the first miami who i knew loved me. a tough love, but a love i in other words and i knew was there to protect me. and the year since her death i realize he don't actively remember her as much as i once did and the reason is partly it's a bit too painful to think about her absence specially when so much of my world chas

changed. i'd look to cough her bough the protest and tell me where she was during the civil rights movement. wanted her to guide me through the relationships if a had or the plans have made as is become more sickly engaged. i've chosen to focus on other things to remember other things. now, i'm reading this part of this chapter because one thing i'm much more aware of five years in, is that we take so much into every room we walk into more than we're willing to name and one thing i realize i was taking into all of the rooms what does i mean to be worthy and the question what is sport and where is my value. never forget meeting with president obama, met with if the twice during the protest. the second meeting what the longest meeting that obama had in the white house that wasn't focuses on national security. i was four hours, long four hours, and i'll never forget that meeting for a lot of reasons but one was because when i realize thread were so men

let's gase civil rights led ever that was but didn't bring the truth. when it came time to be honest with president obama, that just one of the in the room. a reason i'm chill with him right now because he could say the civil rights leaders didn't press me be' in the police, the protester did but people from legacy organizations are real chill with him. they were thankful and the first meeting i had with them people said thank you so much and the then meddle of the meeting he had to say, i gets it, and i know you're happy to be here, blows don't thank me knee. let's talk that he, and re blinded me we're willing to bring a lot into rooms. not always willing to bring the truth and we are caring these thing about 0 lives into every room so the more we interrogate our lives the richer it makes the walk do. and the exchange i will never

forget, there are three protester ins room and we are in a big rick tangle and i was sit -- obama was on the side and i was across from him and there's another protester right immediately to his left and then the third protester on the side, and misha was from the twin cities and judd filled philando, it was philando and -- so the police from st. paul said something slick but the protesters and the middle of the meeting, he yelled you don't get to reply in this room and imlike what is that? here we go and i helped bringmer in the room ceremony like make i'm supposed to calm her down and then if the presidents going to let people yell, we're yelling today and he looked at her and he says, misha i want to hear you if want to make sure i hear you. and so she calmed down a little bit and then me mispronoun herd

name she is that is not my name and, he was like, that's right. and i'm sorry and there was -- never forget because it was a moment i was finally somebody is being honest in i room. a meet with the president and i have to talk last so obama is -- he didn't call me until the very expend i said to him afterwards, it was right after baltimore and if you remember obama called the baltimore protesters thugs on tv, and i said to him, you can't call people thugs ump said i just got -- i was waity -- sweat request and tired and mad said you can't all i'm thugs and he said you said things on tv you shouldn't say because the police are engaging in genocide and the whole house was upset and i said but identity knock at the time president. he goes, you're right and i'm like, i know i'm right but part of the book was this -- to the protests and the trauma we failed and incredible organizing

i was part of and witnessed, but also this idea that we walk into every room as whole people and bart of our story is organizers has to be to interrogate what the wholeness is we walk into room with so we know what it does in every room. >> thank you for sharing that. both the reflection but the book and also the inside the white house. you were in the room writ happened and we get to hear that as we shape the movement. mr. -- i want to turn to you not to read a passage but reflect -- you also reflected about your experience and you talk in the book about what it takes to make a movement and you say, and i'm quoting, a movement results from combination that even the own participants constant contractual and enemies not calculate. evolves in ways that cannot be predicted and those who see it are taken by surprise. tell us more bit the movement you create expelled what led you to write this book. >> well, i didn't create in the movement i just was there.

like -- let's see. hundreds and 20,000 mexican students in the 60s. and it's true. never know why, when, when we need to started, what situations create the movement. it's economical reasons, the society, the angry of the generation. you never know. it's easy to explain after. to complain it in moment you're living in, a moment like this, for me it was a huge story in hi life. i'm 68, but should i say i'm 68 fine. 68 freaky.

i'm 71 now. i think -- i don't remember my exact age. something that you try to forget as soon as possible. bus i mean that. in my memory, in my reactions to everyday situations, movements in any life, i keep saying, what should a 68 teenager will do? and that's what i do. that's why i'm in trouble almost every day. i come from a spanish family, socialist on the father side, anarchist on the mother's side so there was a strange internal fight at the end of every meal. and suddenly was also invited to dinnary priest, so we have the complete thing in there.

and i live in a kind of debate about justice, justice movement. there's justice and there's the movement. to put justice in place and there's injustice all over. so i was ten years, nine years, so it was easy. became a leftist child. i remember being five years old, all my friends in the building i lived, they said we have to give our place to the poor boys. the near slums and neighborhoods. i said, no, we have to steal the place from the rich boys of the building, so they know what is reality. i wasn't successful in that

time. but i haven't been successful in my time several times. i think most of the times i've been involved in social movements, i haven't been successful. we haven't succeed. we were defeated. in the long-term, always in the long-term, we succeed. because this is distance between the short-term and the long-term, which is very important for a writer to have the perspective. i make myself a t-shirt. i'm sorry irdidn't bring it with me today, that says, born losers on the front. but in the back said, not negotiators. because maybe that's the essence of the story. what should i say about social movement? i've been there. for as many years as i remember,

50, 60 years, worker mom, strikes he in the middle of the neighborhood, in the mexican, italian, world. movements of communities, illinois dodge news communes, debate, cultural debates, strikes against the government trying to impose -- to obligate us to have a book that is for every children, was extremely wrong. all kind of fights. because that i think that's the nature of life. there's injustice somewhere, there's the movement to try to repair injustices. no? so you write all that. the trouble is writing about that. it'seese to be on the militant side of life. this problem is write bought. that the pressure of the contribute way, the political

correct approach, the right point of view that description of what is happening there. you have to go over that to create narrative. ... >> in a way and a place to do that because there's stronger legacy, stronger -- [inaudible] if somebody speaks spanish here -- somebody speaks english better than me. >> link. >> link, a huge link.

maybe the u.s. is the only place in the world where you enter a repair shop for automobiles full of glass in the walls and there are a lot of -- [speaking spanish] >> [inaudible] >> and also a picture of pancho villa. [laughter] this is the only -- when i talk about this in france, i said why in a corner you have -- [inaudible] [speaking spanish] the guy that chop heads. they have no link. this is something that was in the remote past. and the same thing happens, when i review this book for the publishing here in the united

states, i reread it, i discovered there's a huge difference between the '68 generation in mexico and the '68 generation here. both of them remember '68, anti-vietnam protesters, they march to the south to get civil rights votes, etc., etc., etc., etc. the only reason that -- [inaudible] [laughter] is and worse than mexican marijuana. there's a generation being lost by drugs, by self-esteem, by self everything. the '60s generation, the stubborn '68 generation, those 230,000 students that went for 123 days on a strike, they were,

in '31, in the movement. they were in the teachers reorganization. they were in the universities, they were in the movement of the coal mining workers. they worked -- they were everywhere. and they were also in isolation. the phantoms of the '68 generation, we were there. not one, many of us. why? and it's the magic of the movement. discussing whether colombia journalist, and i finished -- don't worry -- [laughter] moving too much, i keep on talking -- [laughter] you can move it but you cannot worry. talking with colombian journalist, i would like to write this. colombians, do you have magic?

i said, no, in mexico we have -- >> thank you. that was a great place to finish. so i'm going to ask one more question, and then i hope that the audience is getting ready do their own questions. i'm quoting you as saying protest at its core is telling the truth in public. it is confrontation and disruption rooted in the acknowledgment of a future that has not yet come, which is a theme that all of you talk about in your books, but that it's possible. the work at hand is hope work. i want you all to tell me a little bit -- and little is the operative word in that sentence -- [laughter] what do you mean, what does it take to fuel resistance movements, and how does that evolve over time, because i think that's a theme you just brought up. and i want us to think about, a lot of the work we do at citizen generation is empowering young people to feel movements. we know that generational movement takes a long time k and youth are up at the fore front of that, and so how do we continue to inspire people? you talk about settler colonialism in your book, takes

a long time, it and keeps happening. there are trends and repeats. how to we keep fueling those movements so people feel like they can actually gain progress? >> i, the subtitle of my book is "the long tradition of indigenous resistance," and so that's what i'm really building on. speaking about this generation of indigenous youth are stepping into the stream of history with thousands of ancestors at their back, and i actually did -- i heard madonna thunderhawk who's actually featured in the book, she was one of the women, the american indian movement, who was really a backbone. she was once asked, and i'll just leave it here because it's a short answer. she was once asked why did you sacrifice having a hetero-normative, you know, family life, raising children, etc., etc., to be a red power activist and to be on the road and to, you know, sacrifice relationships with your family

and your own children? she said because i want to be a good ancestor to future generations. >> yeah. [applause] >> some quick things that come to mind, one is we tell simple truths. it is not radical to say every kid eats breakfast, lunch and dipper, it's not a wild thought to say that every kid should be able to read and write. sometimes people are up against they frame these, oh, you're a crazy socialist. call me what you want with, but part of our work is to reframe the things that we believe in, like basic and normal. people deserve shelter, everybody should have a -- like, part of, i the think, what we view because we are passionate about it, we talk about these things as these huge wins, and they will be when we get them, but sometimes people aren't ready for anytime that way. they need a simple truth, and it is true that everybody should eat breakfast, lunch and dinner.

the numbers are on our side. there are more of us who believe in a better world than those who don't. the question is not do the people exist, the question is can we organize them. how do we tell stories that people see themselves in. i'm trying to convince my aunt. she's always my target. i'm not trying to convince the fringe. the people like me who get up in the middle of the night, drive nine hours, we will always be the smallest set of people, but there are a lot of my aunts in the world. if i can convince her, i can convince anybody. so when the kavanaugh hearings were happening, i was like, oh, they're hiding the papers. they're hiding the papers. she was like, they're hiding the papers? i was like, girl, they're hiding the papers. there were these papers that they were trying to get released on kavanaugh, and they won't release them. it's bad. and you know what? he also don't believe in -- [inaudible] he don't? but it was this idea that my -- [inaudible] once with i get you in the room,

i can do a lot with you. if i don't get you in, i can't do anything. and sometimes we are so self-righteous to believe that if you don't enter the work that i enter, then i don't care. i'm open to not being self-righteous about the way that you enter. we have to, we are often telling stories about a world that does not exist, but we know it's possible. and telling that story is sometimes where the sort of wildness comes in, because i'm trying to tell a story to you about everybody getting health care, but you don't have a frame of reference for that here in this moment, in this country, in this city, but i believe it. and we can only fight for things that we can imagine, and a lot of people think imagination is -- [inaudible] but we're always mindful that god spoke to the process in agreement dreams, and dreams are political tools. they are not relics of the past. >> we may not be here to see that dream, right? i think that's a part of it. we can't even imagine what comes later, if you will. what do you have to add? >> everyone loves thinking and

people that read the papers, i have worse problem with people that see the television but just in the children's hours they believe what they saw, no? that's lower level, no? sorry. >> no, no, no. so so tell me, what does it take to fuel movements? what did you learn from your travels? how do you continue to do this. >> >> well, i mean yesterday, yesterday? two days ago? >> friday. >> friday the demonstration of the teenagers revolution that is coming in this country, it's amazing. i saw the places and i ask, how was -- [inaudible] maybe ask me when i was 15, 17, i would have punched them. how old are you? 13, they said, 14. and they were shouting the right things. and they were convinced. world is composed by dolphins,

rainbows, there's something there that -- [inaudible] amazon, no? there's a lot of -- ray bradbury, i think that most of them, but it's wonderful what is happening. there was a light, a sparkling light of the new movement. people shout and people seek, and that's a movement. and i saw it, and i haven't seen it. i'm a nonbeliever of -- [inaudible] i was. i was, a nonbeliever. these teenagers friday, they commit me i have to refocus my mind and see what they saw with their eyes, not with mine, no? the movement is -- it's strange.

it appears, it goes in, goes out. the trouble is that there is a shining path. [speaking spanish] what is the shining path? there is a shining path, there are thousands -- [inaudible] all of them. but the movement is the answer. let's organize. everything. let's organize life, our life. everybody has -- [inaudible] right? >> [inaudible] >> the audience? >> yeah. >> oh, they are -- in my case, there's always a -- [inaudible] who in this room doesn't have a

dumb cause? you see, that's statistics. well, the -- >> to not call them dumb though because they may not want to hear it then, right? >> try to convince e a dumb cause. it's almost impossible. but the dumb cause has a father. aha, has a daughter. [inaudible] so there is a way to reach them. i've seen so many wonderful things in my life, and if they ask me, do you do it again? of course, twice. i don't have the time to do it again. >> so it's creating those onramps and making our ancestors proud and also reaching everybody. so i think it's time for the questions, and i know we -- the gentleman in the pack in the purple shirt -- in the back in the purple shirt has the microphone, so we'll try and be fair to getting it across to this gentleman here in the third

row in the t-shirt. thank you. >> hello. i would like to ask how would you deal with corruption which i think is a very strong danger to any movement. for example, in the environmentalist movement where we have this kind of green capitalism, for example, driven by this very smart social media gurus who are kind of -- [inaudible] or we may have something slightly cleaner and some industries moving forward -- [inaudible] what do you think? what's the defense? how do we kind of -- with the similar strategies or rationality in this age of sunlight? >> i think the youth are much more advanced than -- i mean,

let's just be honest. previous generations have really messed this up, and i think there's this understanding it's not a generational thing, it's a systemic thing. there's a fear in the climate justice movement that if we actually become anti-capitalists, which is like a very soft word because it's very big, what does it mean to be anti-capitalist. and i think in the context of north america, we can begin by talking about settler colonialism as an extracktive form of capitalism specifically. because if we transition away from fossil fuels, where are you going to get the lithium for, you know, your large suv. because if we continue energy consumption, because that's the current goal right now is to, how do we maintain current levels of consumption, right? is and so where are they going to get the lithium? probably from the indian mountains where there's indigenous communities. so it's still an extractive economy. when we say things like

decolonization, it's not a simple process of we're going to provide easy answers or a techno-fix to this problem. nonetheless, why is it you can imagine a post-carbon future, but you can't imagine the end of set her colonialism? so that's the question that i think a lot of young, specifically indigenous leaders are thinking about in this particular context and that there's a sip -- a cynicism to think that this system is going to be saved by some kind of techno-fix, right? and i encourage a lot of young folks to be very wary of the people who led us down this path; specifically, the ways in which, you know, just look at the last administration. domestic oil production increased by 88% at the expense of indigenous lands and lives. that was under obama's administration. he wasn't even that bad. and then we transition to trump, and now public lands are producing a quarter of carbon

emissions, right in and so -- right? so it's not really who's in charge, but it's the kind of system that's in place. >> yes, sir. >> you mentioned corruption, you talk about colonialism. two months ago in puerto rico over a million people hit the street against both colonialism and corruption in the government, and it was successful in removing the governor although colonialism continues and the corruption continues, obviously. why do you think it is that that didn't spark more outrage and more people on the streets here in this country against the corruption obviously that exists in the white house and other areas, and why do you think it is as well that it didn't get the kind of coverage that it merited while we see, obviously, the ongoing coverage of protests in hong kong and other places? this is right in our backyard, it's a colony of the united states, and people don't even know what to make of puerto

ricans in the first place. >> i think i'm, you know, hong kong is really an outlier. there are accept million people in hong kong, and two million of them were in the street, and that is so intense, you know? that is, like, incredible. incredible. you know, i will say one of the things i'm always struck by is, first, you know, i remember when we were in the street in 2014, and a lot of people did not join us, but lord knows you would think 700 million people were in the street with us the way they tell the story. i think people are really interested in being the third or fourth person on the scene, they are not interested in being the second or first. so i'm mindful of that. second thing is i do think one thing that the trump sort of moment has done for people is that the threat is so so big and it feels so overwhelming for people that a lot of people are paralyzed in this moment, i don't think they know what to do. and i can't remember a

presidency where you, where you, where there was no -- where the net of protest, like, he just doesn't care. even obama or the other presidents, you could do something that might get a reaction, he might even tweet about you and that'd be the end. i know a lot of organizers who are like, well, we could plan this huge thing. but if nothing moves, we're stuck. i get it. i think what i try and tell organizers in this moment is remember the numbers really are on our side, they are. like, the numbers are ours. can we organize them? that will be the test for everybody, but the numbers are on our side. i don't even know if we need in the streets in the same way as we do need these concentrated pockets of people working in swing districts, stuff like that. not that i think he can tomorrow politics is the only way forward. but i worry about the comparisons only because i saw, i lived through this moment where people had everything to

lose and didn't come into the street. they didn't, they tell stories about them being there, but they weren't there in real life because i have realized that people want to be the third or fourth person on the scene or they want to write about it afterwards. it's astounding to me, you know? >> reaction to that question? >> i'll just say one thing because i think it is -- i think you raise a really important point, and i think it's this, it's just pure american exceptionalism and pure, this idea of american innocence. and there's a complete misunderstanding that the united states is still not only a settler colonial power, but an imperial power as well, and that has to be acknowledged. >> to go off of that, there's so many different movements going on and so many different people coming out and wanting to make a change, we have three different, completely different options and where do we put all that in? being someone who's hispanic and

mexican, i want to join in that, but it's also, okay, i have my other families, i have my american indian, i have my african-american, like, i want to stand for all of these, and i don't think we're all getting together as much as we should, and i think we did see that in puerto rico where everyone is unified, and here in the united states we're so separated, and we have this narrow mindset of, okay, i'm this nationality, i'm this race, i'm going and getting into this and forgetting about everything else. and i think we really need to get all of our minds together to come up with a solution. and i just want to know what are your thoughts of, e guess, getting the bridges and meeting together rather than you're this, let's focus on this together before we start helping other people? and i just, there's a lot of organizations that are only one-minded when i feel like we should get all of them, and i just don't know how to do that. how do you stretch yourself into all of the areas that need it?

[laughter] >> that's a problem. go ahead. >> i think what you raise really important question because, first of all, based on the book that i wrote i don't think that -- i think people think that indigenous struggles with just exclusive to indick now -- indigenous people, but it's the opposite of that. why would you invite not indigenous people onto your land if decolonization meant that you were going to do what settlers did to us, which means kick them off the land, or that treaties are not, you know, they're exclusive documents that only per tape to us. it's absolutely false because there were not indigenous people who came and fought alongside of us. there was the movement for black lives, the palestinian movement came, a lot of labor organizations. organized labor's on both sides of that pipeline struggle. there's organized pipeline workers, but then there was also

labor organizations and unions that were embedded in the camp. so so the larger question that you're talking about, i think, is a question that gets down to class, and we're talking about class struggle is what, i think what you're gesturing towards, and why we have something -- we should be looking to puerto rico as an example. i think that there's this idea that the united states produces the world's best social movements when, in fact, we are not mobilizing the way -- in the numbers that other parts of the world are and that we actually have a lot to learn from other parts of the world. and that means shedding this kind of north american-centric idea. and so, yeah, i agree with you. i just want to say that. [laughter] >> i agree too. you know, we're always mindful that if we don't fight against injustice in any part of the section, that it'll creep up. that's a part of the way white supremacy works. the moment you allow it in one space, you're allowing it -- maybe a little later, but you

are allowing it to seep in. that's a part of the game that white supremacy plays. also i've seen and when i think about coalitions, coalitions, i believe, is this idea that we want to live in the same room. we might disagree about the path there, but we want to live in a world that is not colonial, that is a place where everybody can eat breakfast. like, we all want to live in that world, we're just fighting to get there in different ways. when i've seen it break down has really been a question of resources. st. louis probably the first 100 days was the most incredible organizing i'd ever seen. for people -- we hadn't been any training, but people had the skill already, right? when it became a battle over funding and, like -- then you just saw, like, the beautiful sense of community just, like, fracture -- i remember the day that people started selling t-shirts on the main street that we were on. and it was like you could feel it. you could feel all of a sudden it was there was like, well, who has a mike brown t-shirt? you could feel it seep away, and

even inside the community it started to fracture, and there was this incredible fight for resources that was just so, i just saw it be so destructive in a way that was really wild. i think about our solidarity with other people who are like, they're incredible people doing climate work, people, like in flint, one of the things we don't talk about is the single biggest decrease of childhood obesity that was ever recorded in the country, which was wild. there are all these entry points for collaboration. i think what i've seen interesting as an organizer is that nobody had anticipated that this many people would want to do something. so all of a sudden you see great organizers not know how to absorb 10,000 people. you know, most of the organizations know how to absorb, like, 20 volunteers, they don't know what to do with 70,000 people all of a sudden wanting to do something. i think that a lot of people who agree with you, i think that they don't know how. we want to -- we believe in the coalition, we'll go to standing rock, we will go do the thing,

but once the moment ends -- and the moment always ends, right? -- once the moment ends, it's how do we do it for the long haul together. and i think a lot of organizers are not honest about the gaps of information. there are a lot of people who want to do a bunch around the police, so many things with the climate, why didn't i learn that in school? i do think we need to come together to learn more so we can share some of the strategies a little better. i think we have shown up in struggle together really well for people. i think that post-struggle strategy the, i think, is when it, like, gets a little dicey, and it's hanging on by the strip of people's personal relationships in a way that i think works in the moment. i'm not convinced that works for, like, the long haul. >> last question. so we're going to make it a good one. who do we want to go to? i think this gentleman over here in the shirt, blue shirt. final word before i close out with some housekeeping announcements and thank the

panelists. >> i feel a little intimidated, but -- [laughter] the media in this covering movements is sip schism. you know, when -- cynicism. when there's a peek at standing rock or ferguson or mexican students, they'll coffer it, but even then they start saying, well, we'll see what happens. they're not really going to make progress, you know, prove it to me. and then when things are not in that huge spotlight, the media acts like the movements have failed, they don't exist, is and some of those are the most important moments, you know, when you're sort of pulling things together. does that matter, do we just ignore that -- >> no, no, no, no way. no way. it's one of the center problems. of we have to reorganize information. information more and more in our society is a kind of sound that goes from the back of the

room -- [inaudible] it's just noise. there's no information. you never know what's happening and why and who. at the same time, we have to reshape the information. it's essential for all of us. the recent success in mexican elections is the battle of information, we won. we have in front of us all the machinery of the corrupt free system in mexico buying information, sending information. we broke it. and that's one of the keys. people should know more and more, and it's very important to reorganize the way we receive information in our lives and the

way people next -- [inaudible] receive the information should be in the center of everything. >> i'd say, too, that i've traveled -- when i travel across the world, i'm mindful that we have not fixed the police thing here. we didn't do it. the police have killed more people since the protests than not, and that is true by all the people killed by strangers. with that said, i have been places and learned so much incredible stuff that people tell stories to organize. i think that, you know, hong kong, i was with some of the leaders, and i was asking her what is different, they were just -- it didn't produce the same level of outrage, what about right now? she was, like, facebook live literally changed everything because she was like our parents and grandparents see it in realtime, and it's not filtered by the media. that's how we got so many people in the streets this time because before we had to wait for the news, now we don't have to wait for this. when we were on the streets in

st. louis, we had six seconds on vine. so we would literally take a video, run away from the chaos, put the video into vine, and we'd, like, hold the phone up to find the six seconds of audio that was the best and then send it. that feels like an ancient technique now, but that was five years ago. [laughter] i think in puerto rico you think about the telegram messages leaked was huge, and what was beautiful was people had these specific anchors, you said this, and people can deny that they said it, you know, that was huge. parkland with the young people on the news immediately after, well, we learned because the mainstream media wasn't really helping us in st. louis. they were, if anything, not a help. and if you remember in the beginning there was a no-fly zone declared over st. louis immediately, so you've never seen aerial footage of the protests. but twitter really did save our lives. if not nor twitter, missouri would have tried to convince you we didn't exist.

twitter was the way we were able to move thousands of people all at once. in hong kong, it's interesting because it's not really an organize, tool, they have a message board where people upload. and she was like, we have this message board, and people can upload, and that's how we can move huge crowds. that is an interesting way to sort of get around some to have media bias that has really anticipated the way that we can move people. but twitter was, like, really big for us. and the mainstream media came along, by the time parkland happened, the media's way to talk about the active protest was just different. when we were in the street, it was like we reminded people the only reason we were in the streets in the first place was the violence of the police. like, that was what got us there. >> yeah. i think there is a sip schism that is being -- cynicism that is being portrayed in the media, and i think it's important to remember that just as much as the police are an instrument, so too is the mainstream media, and we shouldn't have any illusions

about what what happens. and i think, i was looking at twitter today, and there was the iowa rankings of democratic candidates, and they just conveniently left off bernie sanders, and everyone was up in arms. and there's this belief that, you know, there's discrimination against him specifically because he's an outward socialist candidate. and my response to that is if you think that the mainstream media's hostile to just self-identified socialist candidates, why would you think that they're portraying anything about any other country in this world with any kind of accuracy and, you know, up biasedness? and i think that goes back to puerto rico. exactly you have about one-third of the population uprising and overthrowing its, you know, this colonial government, but you don't hear a peep about out. and it's not, it's not unintentional, you know? it happens for a reason. i think, so with that i would emphasize what other folks have said in that we do have to build

our own narratives and actually if you read news outside of the united states, it's actually very refreshing. and so i've turned off some of my channels -- [laughter] i don't watch the tv. but i do have friends or who are positioned in other parts of the world and speak to that perspective. and i think social media's opened up that opportunity to do that. but i think, again, we have to as part of creating a tradition, like an indigenous tradition of resistance also means writing our own stories and telling our own stories as well. >> so i want to recap a couple things that i learned in the last hour and thank you all for being here, now it is officially evening, so thank you for giving us your late afternoon, early evening. [applause] as we all continue to do this work, and me in particular go back to generation citizen where we're educating and empowering young people to be a part of that next generation of fighting against injustice, a couple things that i heard from this conversation are we need to reorganize how we share

information, but also how we elevate information the point we really need to reorganize organizing, right? think about how to harness all this power and interest into systemic movements and not just kind of one-offs that are reacting to trauma rather than thinking about building power and changing systems long term. we need to create uniform strategies that are pushing towards systemic change while also creating entrances and onramps to expand our coalitions with those who may not automatically e be sipping the kool-aid we might have on tap already at our house. we need to make our ancestors proud, we need to know our history, and we need to all be continuing to resist against injustice. with that, i want to thank all the panelists for being here. can we give them a round of applause? [applause] and then i have a closing statement i have to read, so i'm going to do my homework so that i get invited to come back again to this great book festival. i have to thank you all for

coming. the authors will be signing at signing table 1 outside the building -- signing table i. make sure we are all having ad good night. thank you all for being here and have ad good evening. [applause] [inaudible conversations] >> now, that wraps up our coverage of this year's brooklyn book festival. if you missed any of the events from today, watch them online at booktv.org. ♪ ♪ >> the house will be in order. >> for 40 years, c-span has been providing america unfiltered coverage of congress, the white house, the supreme court and

public policy events from washington, d.c. and around the country so you can make up your own mind. created by cable in 1979, c-span is brought to you by your local cable or satellite provider. c-span, your unfiltered view of government. >> up next on booktv's "after words," the federalist's mollie hemingway and judicial crisis network's carrie severino examine the confirmation of supreme court justice brett kavanaugh and the future of the court. they're interviewed by david is savage. >> host: well, last summer washington saw a particularly fierce political fight other president trump's nomination -- over president trump's nomination of judge brett kavanaugh to succeed justice