me just start from where we began, deceiving the sky, inside china's communist supremacy is certainly a fascinating book and you've done a really a lot of work in research into this. thank you again for coming today it is an interesting read. thank you. >> this program is available as a podcast, all "after words" programs can be viewed on a website at booktv.org. the house will be in order. for 40 years c-span has been providing america unfiltered coverage of congress. the white house, the supreme court and public-policy events from washington, d.c. and around the country.

so you can make up your own mind, created by cable in 1979, c-span is brought to you by your local cable or satellite provider. c-span, your unfiltered view of government. >> hello everyone. welcome back to barnes & noble upper west side. i'm really excited you are all here tonight, we have an amazing author who will be here talking about her book and i hope you're as excited as i am. for those of you who do not know her and award-winning journalist and professor at new york university who has written extensively about diversity in news media and the art world. she is the author of spectacle, it when the naacp image award

and the black journalist white media which one the press club award for media criticism. both the books are available on the table as well. her articles interviews are published in major media including the washington post, new york times, guardian, nation and the chronicle of higher education, let's face it she knows what she's talking about. in your latest release "diversity inc.", a billion-dollar business is an exploration of how workplace diversity has turned into a profoundly misguided industry and done little to bring equality to america's industries and institutions. but the book highlights the rare success stories sharing valuable lessons about how other industries can match and if we were to deliver on the promise we need to be added and affected costly measures and do what it takes to challenge attitudes. if you don't take my word for it, on the back of the book the national book author has said

pamela has written the far-reaching and book i been waiting to read. the diversity consultants are not working. and she explained precisely why. institutions can do better in this explains how. tonight we have joan wash, joining in conversation is a national affairs correspondent for the nation as will the cnn political contributor. we have two amazing and intelligent fantastic women here tonight, without further ado welcome pamela and joan.

thank you. hello. mine is on. >> minus two. >> hi, everybody i am very happy to be here, i love pamela and her work and i was very attracted to the title in the idea of this book "diversity inc.", because i think we all know that we're spending billions of dollars, many billions of dollars to put a band-aid -- his name is donald trump. [laughter] no it's more than that. but the book is more than that actually. the book goes into how all kinds of institutions are dealing with this even when they're not

bringing on consultants and doing these things. for better and worse. let's start with the industry. how do we have an industry that is so expensive and yet so ineffectual. >> is like the american way. we throw money at everything. and for some people spending a lot of money means you're doing something. in the case of diversity initiative, the question that i started out with his why do you keep doing the same thing and expect different results. we have been doing the same thing for 50 years and counting, the needle is barely moving, the numbers are extended. i did not realize how bad the numbers were until he did the research for this book. i write a lot about journalism and i knew those numbers were

bad but going across the field whether were talking about the art or partnerships, what percentage of black male lovely or ceo is 2%. academia. you know, i'm a tenured professor but i'm among 4%. and that includes historically black colleges and universities. so when you look at the billions of dollars that are being expended, without any accountability and we've constructed this elaborate apparatus of diversity, we have it down. we have a task force and redo the climate surveys and we hire the consultants and we hired the diversity in mind you, a lot of this only happens after there's some embarrassing episodes. we talk about product, gucci, you name it.

starbucks and nfl, they know who to call in. there is an industry out there and they are treated as one person who does this for a living. he says you're treated like fire extinguishers, they are there to put out a fire and pretty much forgotten about. >> she has a lot of numbers in this book and i'm a complete nerd, i do not want to bore you with them but one of the numbers that blew me away about the industry, it's a totally unregulated industry and there is no standard and no, this is how you get certified, but one thing that blew me away, 35% of diversity professionals have no access to the demographic data of their companies. so how do you do diversity?

how do you say we wanted be more diverse, we want to elevate people who are underrepresented if you don't even know and can't even see where the problems are. right that's indication exhibiting. that maybe these companies are not as serious about diversity as the rhetoric and the expenditures would suggest. >> another number, google spent 114 million -- most every year they spend the on diversity. >> this was 2014 and 23% of the workforce is black in entech is 2%. >> so they're doing well. [laughter] >> so what are they not getting. you have some success stories one you talk about them. >> yes we should. [laughter] >> i think that's the good news in the book. a lot of times, journalists were writers and were good at

analyzing problems so were usually not as good as finding solutions for the problems so i was happy to see there are effective models and if institutions are really serious about this, if they want to go beyond having a symbolic diversity and do the work, one of the companies, the major company that i looked at was coca-cola after it was sued and settled a landmark discrimination lawsuit and what they did, part of the settlement that established a task force and they oversaw everything around diversity and they hired someone who is actually serious about the job and he got into the metrics so he examined numbers throughout the company,

who was being hired, what kind of jobs, how much were people making at the same rank. what kind of patterns of bias could be detected in the disrupted in real time. so they did this over five years and they dramatically change the numbers in the culture of coca-cola. i'm not suggesting that it was easy. or perfect. but it does eliminate how one might go one way and one might go about actually transforming a workplace instead of throwing money at it. it is interesting to me because it came about because of lawsuits obviously. a lot of pressure and also is it alanna-based company. it's like, cradle of the civil rights movement and you have a lot of great people there, there's a pipeline, highly trained african-american professionals coming out of all

the schools. there was never an excuse. and what a lot of companies have continued to say when they're called out on this, it's a pipeline, it's a pipeline. if that was true in the 1960s obviously in 2019 that is no longer true. if you only looked at ivy league switches should not. but if you only look to ivy leagues you would be able to move the needle and a lot of workplaces if you are serious about doing this work. >> one of my experiences in the late '90s, i worked for a black led nonprofit in oakland. in there was an incredible pipeline of african-american talent. every job had multiple people who wanted it in every once in a

while they hired a decent white person like me. i don't know how or why. but seriously, that's how it happened. it was like i had worked for all these white organizations listed we don't know where to find anybody in this is so hard. >> it's treated like rocket science. it's treated like i don't have that postdoc in diversity. and howell, it's like you have to be kidding me. in journalism, we are journalists. we are trained to do research. we can find where the qualified journalists are, my entire career in journalism out of four newsrooms, i was only african-american in three of them. they cannot find us. it's like really, i find us. it is exhausting. it's exhausting. >> you don't write like it's

excise sting. you write with a lot of passion and optimism. but realism but also optimism. >> do i write with optimism? >> i think it's more realism. i guess a little bit of optimism that you may have detected i don't really see as optimism. like let's be real, that's what you see. >> it can be done but what i'm not optimistic about, is white america ability to see past the fiction of african-americans, the centuries old demeaning images of people and how that has as much to do with the lack of diversity in our education

system, what's on museum walls, literature, were in a toxic culture where people of color are concerned in a lot of ways, these diversity initiatives are like putting lipstick on a pig, like you're trying to address something without addressing the cancer of the culture. as you say it is a band-aid on a gunshot wound or on cancer that we have not even begun to really deal with because i know i have been on the faculty at nyu for going on 26 years and i have not seen curricular changes, the way that one would expect. in the 1960s that what all of those college protests were about. the faculty of color, the lack of curriculum that addressed the history of race in this country,

that presented a more realistic take of america so that white america could understand its complicity and the continually inequality and the continuing racial injustice. and until that happens, that is not why -- i'm optimistic it can be done unles unless optimisticr the will to do it. >> the other amazing part of this book that is a little bit separate from the industry is really about these three fields, academia, journalism and entertainment. and what came across to me so strongly that i e-mailed her like 11:00 o'clock p.m., it's like these are the fields that are representing the world. he read. . . . so it doesn't follow.

these men are telling us our stories and the same is true and much worse for people of color because academia, journalism and entertainment has just pushed this narrative. it's the concern with per trails because i think that per trails you can draw a straight line.

it's just a show, movie, book. it's like no. it has real-life consequences for a whole race of people. and so, all of my work somehow kind of conference. they have real-life devastating consequences for people of col color. i think we should pay attention to how the slave trade built major universities.

otherthere's starting to be more attention paid and that's great. i don't mean to sound like a naïve white person, the power that i think about it it's like that is part of what's going on back into the early, not just early but you know, charles murray almost to the present. embedded in academia. it has everything to do with it.

we've told the story of native americans. who is doing that. everyone wants a simple solution to this problem. there is no quick fix.

people want to look at someone like me to say you made it, what's your problem. people much brighter, better writers, scholars who didn't get to have the opportunity that i've had. probably cnn, we were post race and now it's like no one is saying that anymore.

>> no, w >> no, we are not. >> but we never were. we want to stick a flag in the ground and as is a victory, we. the. then we had a break-in and all the backlash to that. how much do you feel like electing barack obama brought us donald trump?

the people were not having that and that's where you have the academic debate of epidemic of lynching. is america and we keep working on it. we have the words we've always struggled and the optimism is that people continue to struggle even some of us who don't think in the end we will see the kind of equality that was articulated

like will we get there as a country? i'm working on this project about 1968 and this week that they hosted the tonight show diane carol just passed away and was bringing together this amazing and subconsciously i want the world to see black

talent. >> we've been here before, right? >> there's always the temptation when we see progress to imagine that progress like a linear thing that is going to continue to progress. without vigilance we will go right back as we have done with every other step we've taken a. suddenly the doors open and you have shows like julia, diane carol, cosby, a flood of films and by 2015 we had two years in

a row where none of the acting nominees were of color. so, what i am saying is yes, this past year one of the films was black panther. the more diverse the film cost -- the >> we are nerds, we are journalists. >> it's this is the problem. we still live in a rigidly segregated society. i live in new york and you live in new york. we go to many journalism events, publishing events. but i'm the only african-american or one of the

few. both parties. i had a lot of friends that i'm the only african-american in the universe and that's fine they are replicated in the workplace. who do you recommend, who do your friends know, who gets the good letters ask many of us are not in those circles. this is not a ku klux klan overt racism that i'm writing about. some of that exists of course. that's not what i'm writing about. it's about the way we live in a society. a segregated churches and schools and then we are

surprised we have segregated workplaces and a the higher up e chain you go, the more homogenous. there are so many patterns in american life that was needed to shift for diversity to truly flower. 21 sports writers at "the new york times" it's great.

how can it be. >> these social spheres may be that won't change and i'm not asking anyone to be my friend. i have plenty of friends maybe you will think about me when there is a job. that is not what i am suggesting. just this is a natural way that people get jobs and we are kind of shut out of that. so short of that changing, and that may never change, you can still go outside your circle. there are professional organizations, there's all kinds of networks particularly in journalism that you should be able to tap into to find talent.

>> absolutely. >> but somehow we just are not able to do it. it's kind of crazy to me. do you think that helped, like the next few years. if you look behind the camera, that hasn't changed. 7.8% of writers at the top 200 films last year it it's the same

cycle of who are you hiring. it's the talent that is entertaining talent but not the people that write a story or greenlight the stories. that is sort of the barrier. one of the revelations of doing this book when you look at the most progressive fueled, hollywood, journalism, the arts, architecture they are the least diverse fields and higher education. one of the least diverse.

what we find in those that are least diverse they don't need basic business principles. there is a lot of nepotism. there's no clauses like they have in corporate america. what does delete look like in america or at least the american imagination what is delete? there are many factors that contribute to the lack of diversity into the field that bu would think would be the most diverse. >> supposedly the most progressive and bringing those ideas. >> and the more that that is perpetuated we can open up for

questions unless you have more than. >> please keep them respectful. i know less about the industries that you are discussing tonight, journalism, entertainment and so on, but i do know a lot. >> she headed the minority supplier development council which is a 50-year-old organization to keep the minority business is into doing

business with fortune 500 companies. and i posted something on your facebook because i'm so glad you are talking about it. but there is a publication that you haven't touched on tonight and this may just designate on the corporate side. mostly you are discussing black-and-white which is the most difficult. in corporate america now what has happened when you discuss diversity is a catchall. >> i forget which company i think it was apple that diversity officer said even a blue-eyed white man can be diverse. trying to get economic diversity, regional diversity.

>> you say let's have some metric is its dispersed over a large group of people. >> that's why i focused on racial diversity, because it's not like that is mutually exclusive dot race is exclusive. we have all kinds of disabilities. it is compounded by race and all of that gets eclipsed because we broaden the term to mean a -- >> i don't know about journalism or entertainment, but i can tell you in corporate america is a shell game. 80% or more of the contracts that go out through corporations every year and everybody else gets the tab because the vast percentage of state for years. >> over 15 years n..-- with case

in point. dd to point something%. because white women. people of color the numbers didn't change that much for people of color. it's why i'm drilling down on racial diversity because it has been overshadowed by this overtaxed term and it is part of the problem. >> are there any other questions or solutions?

thanks for this great book by the way. >> one issue that i see his diversity like some other corporate initiatives is site about away from the profit centers and corporations. so if you have a law firm over your thinking about is their billing hours the thing about diversity and people of color it has nothing to do with me so that is the way it goes. it's not helpful.

>> i'm not sure my thinking here but why would people who dictate policy change if they don't have to, and number two, power never conceived power. i understand the struggle. >> that may be true but it's just not going to change because who gives up power. i ask my students how many of you have had a privilege that you have given up plaques just because it is the right thing to do. i took my allowance indicated to a homeless person. >> but did you give it up for a year, like what did you really give up.

so you may be right but they are not pessimistic. sometimes things change because they are right and not often. i think that it came that says the arc of history bends towards justice. i think it ends and then it ends back. i see it as a continuum. we will fight and make change and do better than our ancestors did. we have children and we are going to do everything we can to make sure they do better. we just can't stop fighting. we have to fight and i think what happens if many people think victory is over. we are going to be fighting until the day that we are dead

and then our kids will have to continue to fight. the graphics of the country are upon us by 2035 people of color will be the majority. that is what the kids in cages and voter suppression, it's on. we are in that kind of struggle over demographics. the demographics are going to determine some of the change. not all because i'm often reminded of south africa which is like 90% black. the demographics will not necessarily determine destiny,

but we have to continue to fight the fight. >> keep on fighting will now little malcolm. we have another question over here. i was wondering whether you did any research into the traditionally female professions like social work and nursing and library. i know carla hayden is the first african-american librarian of congress. >> by kocab the numbers and i do a deep dive on the fields indicated, high air at hollywood and corporate america. i can't look at everything. people of color are acutely underrepresented in every influential field. we may be overrepresented as caretakers, and museums as

security guards. this is a systemic issue that isn't relegated to one or three fields. >> we have another question over here. >> i want to know your opinion of the anti-bias training. i cannot understand looking at this everybody will be looked at that. >> in a few hours we are going to undo the damage that has been done for centuries. that is what is considered

drive-by diversity we are just going to fix it overnight or in a few hours. i looked at many of the studies on diversity training and the most comprehensive studies of past say it makes negligible difference in a study by the professor at harvard found that it actually makes things worse. particularly if you require it causes a lot of presentiment and people of color usually drop after you go through that because there's so much tension and resentment around it. so that isn't the way to go but that is what most companies do and they are spending billions on doing things like that.

>> we have time for one more question. in terms of the entertainment industry, do you think that tyler perry and his enterprise which will bring so many people of color into various aspects of movie theater production are part of the answer i and try and get more people out there -- >> obviously people of color owning their own is always helpful. tyler perry and there's a numb number, there's a lot of activity does this help a

systemithesystemic problem we ag about, probably not but it will employ some people and they will be trained and hopefully able to go to other studios. i'm not convinced the pipeline was never the problem anyway so i don't know if that is good to change the systemic issues i'm talking about. >> thank you. [applause] that was an incredible discussion and we are so lucky to have you guys here tonight. we are going to move to my favorite portion of the book signing. we have a lot of copies over on the table. if you haven't picked one up, you are able to grab one and had to register downstairs before you leave. we also have copies of the other books. thank you so much for coming tonight.

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