washington dc and around the country. so you can make up your own mind. created by cable in 1979. c-span is brought to you by your local cable or satellite provider.c-span, your unfiltered view of government. coming up tonight, a look at some of the programs you can watch every weekend on booktv here on c-span2. tonight's theme is u.s. intelligence. next, amaryllis fox, former officer with the cia clandestine operations unit discusses her book "life undercover" then philip mudd, former deputy director of the cia's counterterrorist center talks about the cia detention centers that were used to interrogate suspected terrorists following 9/11. after that, stephen kinzer explores the work of sidney gottlieb the head of the cia mk ultra mind control program that was dissolved in the mid-70s.

[inaudible background conversations] ..... >> i will give a quex introduction then ask a few questions and use the last ten or 15 minutes for audience

questions we will have a microphone set up here in the back.and another in the please silence your cell phones for echo even before she finished studying at oxford before 9/11 before her writing mentor daniel pearl was already invested in international affairs taking a great risk out of burma when just one year out of high school she got a masters in terrorism where she developed an algorithm that could predict terrorist attacks based on 200 years of data at 21 she was recruited to the cia to analyze classified cables from foreign governments and was selected for advanced operation training to infiltrate terrorist networks working undercover as an art dealer.

it's not a huge surprise to hear the novel come to life she and her husband who is alsoll a spy had to talk in code all the time the housekeeper was spying and the people in the street were keeping track of theirco movements the place was bugged then to find out this cia were spying on the chinese who were spying on them. since she left in 2010 she has offered insights to cnn, national geographic, bbc and has spoken on peacekeeping. looking at this as a tv series also working on a young adult novel ladies and gentlemen

amaryllis fox. [applause]he >> thank you so much. so can you start the way you were brought in sounds like it started at an early age. >> yes it was a blessing and a curse i use one - - i moved every year of my childhood a lot of time overseas every september i would start a brand-new school and not know anybody. at times that was challenging but it also gave me a sense time and again of being at home in the world with the idea of differences for drove orr accent or cultural habits were windowdressing you can be dropped any place in the world and make friends the same

archetypes exist everywhere. and i think that was a philosophy that drove me as a young person to really be drawn to journalism to share those stories from these places with friends i would see periodically when i came home to the states and didn't have a chance to run around and that is what led to me as a teenager. >> how did you know to go there it sounds like you went to not knowing where you would land. >> yes. my poor mother back then it was kind of okay to go to an internet café once a month and e-mail.l.

[laughter] my last year of high school i was back in washington dc. i had fallen in love with a philosopher and theologian writing houston smith he was speaking at the smithsonian and i heard he was battling cancer. so i skipped high school to experience him talking in case it was my last opportunityen . that day itself i don't regret doing that because it was very powerful he talked about studying all the world religions and nonreligious philosophies and the notion that we are all a part of one whole and that stuck with me because when i got to school the next day i saw the dean

but i also turned up in class to find out the final assignments were handed out and that was the political situation in burma. growing up moving around a lot i really didn't know anything about this political situation and the more that i learned about it, the more this one armed woman peaceful fight at the time against authoritarian military regime was similar to north korea at, the time began to fascinate and inspire me. so thinking about taking a job here before university even before the year itself i took my prom dress money instead i

went to a travel agent and bought a ticket to thailand. so theal idea was to do a couple of weeks volunteering at a refugee camp on the border and at the end of those two weeks we went back to the airport as a volunteer group and i was at the gate and everyone was getting ready to board i had a really stronger instinct my work was not done and i said i think i'm going to stay he was not entirely comfortable with. [laughter] that he had other teenagers to usher onto the plane and ultimately let me go and i walked back out the doors and headed back up to this camp

and while i was there continuing to volunteer work in the distance to publish a democratic newspaper in opposition from the jungle and they were preparing for protest 9999 to fall the regime and they wanted to be sure if there was violence it was documented and with this immortality we feel only as teenagers i said i will go and at the time they stopped issuing student visas or tourist visa's you can only get it if you had business visa i really had no access so called collect a guy that i had met 15 years my senior but

i met him add our rally researching my final paper and i said this is a long shot but how would you feel about taking a couple weeks off of work coming to thailand so we could pretend to be married and go into burma on your business visa? [laughter] which seemed reasonable at the time. [laughter] so he did exactly that so we went to bangkok we got a forged marriage certificate because you could get a forged anything. we knew we would have to conceal and get out the protest never happened because security was so tight but we did have the opportunity through the dissidents to

interview her who was under houseun arrest we were warned if we did that we would probably be detained by the military but we did it anyway and spent two hours with her which were fascinating and extraordinary at the time and we were detained and eventuallyic deported and for me really that was the beginning of understanding how powerful an hour or two from a truth telling from a single human being can be in the face of all the military might in the world. >> so we could hear her as a woman and a mother with no arms available to her that they were detaining people just for talking to her that was the electrifying idea to me that the truth and the pan

andth the word could be that powerful and it made me start off with my undergrad committed to the idea of continuing in that work to become a a journalist. >> finishing your last year at oxford can you talk about how that changed you? i was in dc going into my last year i was watching my mom walk our dog and her neighbor pulled up in a volkswagen rabbit and said turn on the tv just before the second plane hit my little sisters were in the cathedral pool and they were not sure if they were a

target so they were evacuated i remember being with my mom and the dog in our jeep trying to, get these two little girls evacuated. it brought back for me the first loss of my life with a dear friend of mine who in third grade was in the flights that went down over lockerbie loscotland. my mom waited until three days later to tell me after christmas and said it was they were all better on the plane it was better because nobody was left to grieve per i loved her very much and all of that came back picking my sisters up after 9/11. then four months after that this journalist danny pearl i'd only met him once in an

evening at dupont circle when i was a in student but i admird him immensely because he was the journalist who wrote with such dignity and curiosity about the islamic world and was the hero of dialogue and pluralism. so after the overwhelming scale ofov 9/11, the incredible intimacy of the loss of danny to the world really struck me as terrifying it wasif a new and different kind of war that threatened truth and dialogue and the share of experiences around the world. in the back to my dad's advice after laura died my dad said

to me if you don't understand the forces that took her you will be overwhelmed by the fear and introduce me to the newspaper that was completely as me and i read it with care. possibly it wasn't super, healthy but. [laughter] i felt these characters whose names i couldn't pronounce at the time seemed remote but at any moment they could jump off the page and take another one of my friends from the year. and to learn to understand their relationships with one another giving rise to violence was important to me

so 9/11 the violence that came after including daniel pearl's murder i returned to that idea that if i was going to be overwhelmed than i had to understand it so that thesis project algorithm. >> then the cia approaches you and you take the job. >> but one in particular when you realize a man had been taken and beaten and starved and was the wrong man. can you talk about that moment and how you reacted and those around you. >> i won't get into the operational details more than that because necessary

elements have been omitted but that particular cases carried very thoroughly in the press but it is indicative of one of the great challenges we all face after 9/11 as americans and alliesth but also the subset we are serving in government and military organizations that the terrible tension between having signed upn to serve on behalf of the american ideals with the city on the hill than the moral leadership that's important to maintain america's position and friendships in the world then the thing that happens after an attack as significant as 9/11 that fear and velocity

based reaction where things happen really quickly and communication isn't always crystal-clear and it's no surprise that it is critical now as a country we can learn from them and not repeats that and analyze them and we have done that in some areas better thanem others. we have been quite thorough in our examination whether or not torture is something we want to tolerate or if it's even useful or practical program not sure we are quite as thorough as killings of the drone program so it's a work

in progress but to have those conversations as adults andpr americans. >> two things that come up in the book nude took a lot of ciayo insider training so did you hear anything back before publication cracks and in some people criticize pieces of your book i know you have addressed that before. >> one of the difficult things about going through the review process is there are operational details that have to be changed and omitted for very good reason. so as you set out to share the

ctinteractions over the course of your career it's about figuring out which interactions even make sense to include or just to leave out entirely. for me it was important to be upfront on the front page that changes had to be made but i don't think it was as significant a challenge for me because the focus was a personal journey not operational of how something happened we heard a very detailed account this morning. so there are important omissions but for me this was about not just coming-of-age

in the twenties but also the evolution of a perspective. when i started with that background lockerbie or 9/11 or the killing of this journalist it honestly wasn't with the view to find a common ground we were at war and we were afraid. over the course of a career and interaction after interaction i realize that it's just fiction. it doesn't work but it risks creating more adversaries than you destroy. there is a more long-term and ballistic way to bring an end to the conflict which we have

proven time and again we cannot prevent violence through violencean alone through human history. [applause] >> so that brings me too my question i didn't expect this to be deeply spiritual. >> i don't know if it's spirituality or personal philosophy but we all want the same thing you point out in pakistan remember the other person is you. and you say i found deep down part of saving lives or bringing liberty to iran so can you talk about that being practical and how that evolved over the years quex.

>> spirituality has been a huge part of my journey while i was at oxfordf i studied theology but that theological study of each religion was of indigenous tradition and non- spiritual philosophy really did reinforce what ire heard the notion that the other person is you or we are all connected and part of one collective organism. and we know that from a scientific point of view. and then john done.

and academically as a young person with the school of hard knocks in my twenties where all sides of this conflict will take a short term solution because of the illusion that we are isolated and then to find in thelu long term it potentially endangers more people than not doing anything to begin with and we have seen that we have seen that with the enemy of our enemy and for civilian casualties which is such a fueling future extremist with

grief and humiliation and these personal feelings with the violence and extremism. so for me the simplicity of treating people with dignity even when you disagree with them emerged as a very powerful lesson. sometimes they think we can discount that is grandmother's advice is not pragmatic in the real world but actually it is the most pragmatic thing in the real world i discover the entire time i was out there. i tell the story i was with a coupon - - a q con founder of the network that is responsible with the nuclear material and technologies to terror groups and nonstate actors in here has done more

to endanger global security than anyone else and when he talks about he talks about being on a teenager on a train where he saved up for a fountain pen and he filled out the customs card and when the indian guard took the card he said also take the pen he said no i love this then you cannot take it he said he will not stop me and it is teenage brain at that moment felt so humiliated and powerless and aware of this unfairness that had just happened he said i will never be powerless again pakistan will never be powerless again and that

morphed into this program that so much of the globe endanger to take uranium from libya for the pakistan bomb to exchange and on and on and of course that's not a rational leap to have your pen stolen but sometimes we underestimate the power of one moment of humiliation and one moment of treating with someone with dignity to quell violence. >> it sounds like you are trying to get people to work with w you. did you feel like at least in the book but did you know the moment to hit people with that to say we believe the same

things i know you well enough now cracks so usually it took some talking or by the time you brought that up they knew you well enough quex. >> yes. there were all sorts of reasons. it is a slow process in the field but it starts with your first communication with anyone. we are more sensitive to authenticity than we realize. if we manufacture a reasonco to connects, we feel it even when faced with somebody who is involved sometimes with horrific violence to search for some glimmer of humanity to build a relationship over months and years to a place

that i actually moved to help prevent attacks is soulful work actually and often lost in our pop culture depictions of intelligence work but all of that first of all that doesn't happen at all but even the tradecraft that does happen it's there to safeguard the core work which is relationship building its hardest in the world to listen to. >> one more question than we will get to q&a.

but who do you hope reads the book waxy was the main audience cracks. >> i'm particularly happy when i talk to young women. there is a lot for all walks of life but young women see a different national security picture from the reality how important their contributions can be. or that the them the tall door kicking and it is vindictive of the substantive work that women bring to this world that are uniquely well-suited. this is the alternative to the necessary solutions of the

military based on emotional intelligence and relationship building and intuition and multitasking. this is feminine problem-solving has great strength. i really do hope the young women and young people of color from diverse backgrounds who don't even look at this work realize they are the ones we most need doing it not just in the intelligence world but government and military with policymakingac. >> now we will open up to the floor. >> has an art dealer as a cover with your career quex. >> i will not go into cover and operational details for the same reason i said earlier

anything around those details has gone through review so i have to leave it to the book through review so i have to leave it to the book i have wondered a business like that could produce revenues when you wrap up an operation like that who keeps the funds. >> let me just say if that were to be the case it certainly is not the officer involved. [laughter] that is granular in operation. but i will say that one of the real challenges in the shift from the traditional warfare to the asymmetrical sites that have morphed into terror

groups and nonstate actors is that it is necessary to be created in the place that you need to be to do the work that needs to be done. so to be aroundd the creation of a similar film organization or film company like a scout in iran that was pretty well produced but in those cases there definitely wouldn't any process be drawn by that character. [laughter] >> we appreciate your presentation very much.

the people that you see most valuable with this kind of work so a quex question of a reflection , seeing the way things have gone with the agency and where we are in the world today, i'm sure how we would get to a place with the issues we are confronted with. do you have any kind off prescription or direction other than the type of people you like to see getting involved? are there things we could do more universally to foster such an environment? >> absolutely. at the level an individual level at one of the things that is most important is looking at the precursors of instability with conflict and investing in the infrastructure and support that is necessary and much

more efficient early on before the conditions for conflict reached a military response. that's what we talk about the academic work i did as a young person to predict terrorism that was quite clumsy graduate school work of a kid but one of the things that came up time and again in the data that was heavily correlated was the percentage between the border guard and theen corruption that there are many such data points we know are correlated and are not easy to fix.

so to study that is very important and to double down on our investment of soft power in general is important. the belgian road initiative in china is very important for us as americans to note just about to come up at $1,000,000,000,000.1 million onll the ground with this infrastructure not as charity but as a shrewd geopolitical move. and when we take our resources and commit them in military ventures for a geopolitical rifle doubles down on soft power then i really worry for the continued leadership of our country because of flag on a brand-new train gets a

different feeling locally even if it was a legitimate target 's i would like to see more of that but then in terms of our own responsibility here at home i reallyth think the division i used to see played out on the internationalvi stage is cracking our own house from inside and the disagreements are the important part of our democracy but the inability to have them respectively are to listen to one another is getting to a point that it undermines our own internal stability. every school kid learns a house divided cannot stand and

then to learn how to disagree without exasperating with the adversaries would most like to do. [applause] >>. >> we will keep waiting for people to come up but i'm curious to hear after you left the cia it sounds like you could transfer to show people how to bring their guard down so talk about theur projects you been working on. >> it's an interesting realization for me especially after i had my daughter that so many of the tools human intelligence offices are giving in training in the field are around learning to

create relationship or commonality with those who wish us ill and those same tools are applicable outside of geopolitics with aspects of our community. i work now to share them with prisoners who are looking to make amends or meet their victims or survivors or gang members are interested to drop their gang affiliation. before i had my nine -month-old i was in the middle east working with young people in the camps they are affected by sectarian violence because they really are at an age that

can reject the words of their parents it is an exciting generation because unlike every previous generation that had to organize itself vertically by geography this is the first one where the internet has been so involved in their life from the get-go that teenagers and young adults nowin are the first generation can organize themselves horizontally by age globally we have seen that with the climate movement and i think people see more to arm young people with the ability to communicate with one another and the moments they are so disproportionately affected by the conflict and say we just are not another link in the chain is a rewarding path.

>> [inaudible] [laughter] >> yes. as hard as it is to ever see their parents theiree little ones anywhere other than a safe room we model what we hope the kids will be in the world and i think it's so important to empower young people especially young women to roll up their sleeves and engage to be the version of this country theyf want to see in the world and often it's least likely to find personal happiness in government service for people who aren't necessarily there because they

are feeling the heavy weight and responsibility and moral complexity that comes with the work and even though that isn't necessarily a prescription for happiness in your twenties and i wish happiness to my little ones it is a prescription for purpose and meaning in service and we can hope that life is long enough to do that. and then step back and enjoy life with family and community in a different kind ofit servic. >>. >> do i see climate change is a challenge to peacemaking? mimic absolutely it is an enormous challenge to stability around the world.

the pentagon actually added it to its list of security concernsn concerns. we see an enormous migrant crisis driven by conflict and climate change. the competition for resources has always driven human conflict to be escalating as viable land in many parts of the world is decreasing this is due to climate change in the early days of the syrian conflict. and i think it is important to consider it even though it's a slow-moving threat one of the challenges of the human mind

and democracy especially with term limits is the tendency to have part-time short-term over the long term and climate changes where every policymaker understands the ramification ramifications, sometimes they can feel like they will land for a different policymaker down the road but it's really important as a country we prioritize that and let them know we support them even if it takes time to pay off. >> given the description we heard this morning about the aku bakr al-baghdadi killing were there those in the cia agencies who are alarmed by the level of detail made public?

>> that was certainly unusual to have that much detail disclosed. as i said earlier i had to change a lot of operational detail but i suspect it was cleared with the intelligence community first. there was some method to that madness of the objective was to attempt to prevent the supporters of that ideology to see his final moments as heroic. that was incredibly somber across the board that no death is cause for celebration but this marks the end of one particular era of leadership under which thousands of families lost people to terror attacks because of the caliphate itself to the actual recruitment of their sons and

daughters by that ideology. is not a moment for celebration but i think the objective there probably was to remind people to whatever extent that in his final moments the character of this person was rhea on - - reiterated that only did he take his life but three innocent lives with him as he did over the last five years so it was an incredibly somber day for everybody i would have liked to have seen him taken alive and stand trial but he put through so many through but with the suicide vest he made that impossible spin i thank you so much. [applause]

thank you to c-span2 and book tv she will be signing books. [inaudible conversations] >> i would always make a point to ask when we go to an area to sit in a room with a group of women. no offense to the fellas but the women had a way you could sit down with them they would tell you what the problem was, how it got to that point

and how to fix it. >> this was not a journalistic decision that was happening. we were told to cancel interviews. we were told to stand down. i was threatened i would be exposed as having been terminated and let go from the company if i ever disclosed we had anything to do with the story. >> talking about courage was impervious and shot three times and should have died for cohen it was time to get a commission he goes to washington so i have a nap i can see just about everything

this country is fragile courage has to be calculated. >> the number of black elected officials in this country have gone from fewer than 1500 in 1972 more than 10000 today of course a twice elected black president that is the voting rights act. >> at the turn of the 20th century and the early 19 hundreds it is something almost un-american the right of the foreign-born so the movement of the first two decades of the 20th century road that wave of nativism

thinking about what type of behavior is appropriate for native born healthy americans. >> good afternoon for the national archives manager for the lecture series. on behalf of the archivist of the united states i would like to wme