>> in the early 19 hundreds was almost un-american but the movement of the first two decades of the 20th century rode the wave to think about what is appropriate for nativeborn healthy americans. >> and welcome her back to the community if you don't know in

2012 host of the award winning rachel maddow show for those you don't know three emmy awards including outstanding live interview and discussion and analysis. the original show has been nominated twice for outstanding achievement for 2010 and 2017 winning a gracie award and interactive media category. first gaining national prominence as a host on radio where she works since the inception of 2004 prior to joining she had two networks here in western massachusetts

in holyoke and northampton is a special honor to welcome her back to western massachusetts. >> and that new york times best-selling moment and then before we get to that things would resonate with this community in particular. not only progressive but it's not to be forgotten and seems to devour whole libraries each day. so please join me to welcome rachel maddow. [cheers and applause]

>> wow. so i do this tv show but there's only one person in the room with me but after that it's all cameras so it is unsettling. so thank you so much for being here and it's really flattering and warms my heart's there is some the

people here. and then talk a little bit but this unexpected thing happened at the time the book came out. [laughter] last month and all of a sudden to have a tv show and the opportunity to speak whatever i want to but now i have an argument in me that's longer than a tv show and it's bugging me so i have to spit it out so it has to be a book frequently so have to worry if it is good because it's a topic nobody cares about. and then the week it comes out the president starts to get

impeached. so now what the book is about. [applause] it's not the books fall. but to that end i will do a quex poll. and i'm totally happy to read from that portion of the book so i will tell you all three options than which one you want me to read. option number one walruses. option number two is alaska.

>> so number one walruses? [applause] number two alaska. [applause] number three ukraine. [applause] [laughter] i think people voted for walruses and ukraine. i will read a little bit on ukraine. so what weirded me out when the book came out right at the time a couple of different things happened we learned the presidents imprisoned campaign

chairman paul manafort was doing work from behind bars with rudy giuliani and then talking strategy. he is in prison on multiple felony charges. and it was specifically what he and the president what they were trying to do to help in his reelection chances as a lawyer is consulting with the federal prisoner. that's a start. but among the other materials that he cited and then a sworn

statement that he got from the lawyers from a man named dimitri. for a long time he was seen as the kremlin's guy in ukraine. he's under arrest. under house arrest fighting extradition to this country on multiple felony corruption and bribery charges. with the upper echelon associate with crime so mister giuliani obtains from his legal team a sworn statement key to what they have been trying to obtain and ukraine but not just me russian organized crime fighting extradition is also the imprisoned campaign chairman

and then we met igor. [laughter] it's all a pretty picture to start out but let me talk about how this all fits together. so with the prospect of western oriented democracies that sort of thing to not only challenge or constrain the power but conceivably inspire the russian people themselves and the solution is simple. natural gas and oil to keep neighboring countries corrupt. and with that democratic governance and rule of law it created an empowered political class invested in preserving

enriching the practitioners and families. it also had place for organized crime to flourish under putin's control as he steadily became more integrated with transnational organized crime and those to attract for those henchmen if putin didn't make them so rich the beauty of his kinship with the mob as it gave him a whole other set of lovers to make problematic people go away whatever it may be seemly with the overt powers of the state the kremlin was delighted to utilize man's special skills and talents to shape ukraine to its liking from its increasing flirtation with the left european union so they

cut him a sweetheart deal in ukraine and then to be given the exclusive rights to buy back from russia at a very large profit of $800 million in the year 2007 alone. ukraine suggested that putin wanted both the middleman and the markup it also cost gas prom pretty pity one - - a pretty penny. it was worth it because that was part of the other ukrainian oligarchs would have plenty of cash to spread around to shape their country in ways putin would appreciate. some of that would go back to moscow as a tribute but even more to the parties who said a bunch of it would pass through to the offshore bank accounts of a mercenary american

political operative named paul manafort. he helped the moscow friendly regents in the parliamentary elections 2006 and spent the next few years being their strongest opposition party leaders. including the prime minister as a particular threat to the influence in ukraine as a front runner in the 2010 presidential election by seizing on the sweetheart gas deal and promise to end it. she made a good case why on earth's should the company be allowed to siphon off $800 million in a single year by playing a middleman will nobody needed? and nobody in ukraine wanted. manafort and his team went right back with full force help to drive the approval ratings up 20 percent even the renegotiation of the russia uk

ukraine national gas deal she succeeded to take the middleman out to take dimitri out of the center of the even the most successful negotiation of the deal wasn't enough to sway a majority of voters. manafort squeezed by into the presidency. he received much credit for the victory with a rich new contract is the off-site political advisor the third act as president was to sick a prosecutor lock her up the prosecutor charged that the plan abusing her official powers by illegally arranging with russia and she intervened

to stop that deal the accused her of corruption. dimitri had a lot to do with that in europe so manafort had a public relations campaign to destroy her in ukraine and the united states. that while in prison trashed by the american pr firms and whatever manafort could cook up dimitri got back into the gas deal which was better than ever his company operated profit in 2012 of $4 billion. with that type of money available putin's natural gas monopoly hovered over the heads of the ukrainian people. putin could tell things were going well with a campaign promise to move toward a greater cooperation putin knew

that could not ever happened but the problem was the ukrainian people liked it even when he promised $15 billion worth of new way to ukraine the will of the ukrainian people was still clear they wanted to be a part of the eu no matter what putin was offering they revolted again. it started november 21st and 2013 is a small demonstration and independent square in kiev grew to 100,000 person protest the demonstrators took over a violent crackdown by police did not quell the enthusiasm in the face of dimitri getting ready to fire security forces determined protesters put on pots and pans as makeshift armor to take to the streets and the crowds kept on coming in growing.

putin thought january would break the crowd if the security forces could not but he was wrong in february as the olympics kicked off protesters were still there by the tens of thousands wearing the 21st century kitchenware huddled for what warmth around fires had morphed from a demonstration about the eu into democracy itself and the will of the governed ukrainians called the revolution of dignity. demonstrators were getting courage and numbers on february 18 they armed with slingshots and braved the gauntlet of the arm security forces and marched on the ukrainian parliament. went dimitri security forces started to kill protesters that afternoon the crowds retreated to their barricades and remained there through a terrifying night protected by

fire the security forces broke out the machine guns. and scrambled for rooftop snipers the next day in seville is --dash civilian casualty list kept growing one yelled we are not afraid to die for freedom. freedom is for us we will win ukraine will be part of europe and the free world you will never be slaves. we will be free with a growing sense of dread and anger here at his doorstep america was the cause of the mess he was sure. on the eve of the final day of the olympics dimitri lost his nerve turned and ran he gave over kiev and the federal government to the revolutionaries ukrainian parliament met in emergency session they voted him out of office and up sanchez and

ordered the immediate relief and she was freed and then referred dimitri to international criminal court for crimes against humanity just a few days later and a party of regions strong hold in the eastern part of the country running into protest their thousands of countrymen faced him down on the home streets chanting ukraine is not russia. and dimitri fled to moscow. putin was done trying to make nice he had it with united states meddling on his turf. vice president biden was in and out of kia for years insisting the obama administration would protect ukraine from russian aggression. biden said we do not recognize any sphere of influence and followed that up that the russians have a shrinking

population base dwindling economy and infrastructure that's not likely to withstand the next 15 years a situation where the world is changing before them and they are claiming to something of the past that is not sustainable. putin took it personally. [applause] since i wrote that part dimitri has hired to have trumps lawyers to defend him and then igor my boyfriend is now fighting multiple charges in the southern district of new york his relationship with rudy giuliani still is not playing he has described them as friend friends, clients

come at one point the lawyers said the cute one. [laughter] was part of president trumps legal team. and was working for mister giuliani in the context of his work as president trumps legal advisor. if that is true working for the presidents legal team, but it's a little bit weird because that's working for giuliani that he works for the president but giuliani but giuliani was paid half a million dollars which i've had a lot of good jobs would not want dry pay my boss half a million dollars. [laughter] so the good news is i plan the book when nothing is going on in the news.

we will talk about the oil and gas industry and its influence and also with the impeachment crisis i know we are in the middle of that but i didn't set out to write a book about oil and gas i ended up writing on this topic for two reasons. one because i have been trying to figure out what i can add that is useful to the conversation we are increasingly having which is about the fact now we are living through worldwide and here at home what we think of as the pillars of democracy deal to be soft and vulnerable and authoritarianism and in trying to figure out what i

could add meaning to that conversation and to sing praises of democracy. but that isn't enough. we need to talk about how to make a difference. so to think about the forces that are weakening democracy i do think it's to follow the money to make the fights more or less winnable. but you may have noticed i'm interested in what russia did to us in 2016 and i make no apologies for that. but setting aside the real world impact in all the divisive questions around that i am interested why rashad did it with the balance of risks

and rewards. with all the evidence that we have that every poster thinks that trump would lose and hillary would win but the russians believe that also even if they tried to make the opposite come true but the interesting strategic question is if they were expecting hillary clinton to be the next president of the united states already coming in as a russia hawk taking those shots at her almost overtly helping her opponent i think that would have made things harder for them. so was a big risk they were taking what was the big risk to try what was so important with that election they were willing to incur that kind of risk for their own country?

pretty quickly i arrived it's hard to get a clear picture of russia's motivation their own incentives and constraints that the economy really sucks not ad hominem but the largest country on earth with 100 million people which is bigger than every european country germany's 80 million in terms of modern economies and south korea russia is 150 million people the economy is smaller than south korea smaller than italy. triple the population so why is that why did they float on

the sea of oil and gas have such a bad economy? that's part of the story of russia and oil and gas generally speaking that's a terrible thing to build your economy on. the other thing that's important is the realization of the going - - the oil and gas industry makes its own political weather for all the things surprisingly they are not that good at what they're really good at is getting government to serve their interest to serve that ability for any other responsible purpose setting aside whatever may be bad for your country with going on - - oil and gas production nevertheless we see oil revenues flow governor one - - government suffers. the founding minister says i wish we discovered water opec

says oil is the excrement of the devil and then some jerk for me to say that it tells you it's the devil poop. [laughter] the oil industry is full of regular people not talking about anybody personally so it's not against anyone personal but 70 percent of carbon emissions are for burning oil or natural gas. we are the biggest economy on earth so looking at the whole enchilada. and then we prop up governments everywhere and

russia specifically. and with that dictatorship to reorder the world and all western alliances and western democracy and with this conflict of our time with the rule of law and surprising authoritarianism. that said the reasons to be hopeful are many this is all understandable. is not that complicated but to be big and brightly colored. i am also encouraged if you

want to read the book in a backwards way to give a weird perspective just to read all the oklahoma chapters i have a lot of oklahoma because it turns out oklahoma was my reason to be cheerful it's a state that had its government captured or overpowered by the oil and gas industry. thought when oklahoma was in the crisis because of that. and then they turned on their democracy the oil and gas industry is still there. but oklahoma showed when push comes to shove democracy

matters it with that rich industry. that can be constrained. most of them are republican voters who stood up to change just in the last two years toward the industry to dominate that like no other. for the industry that dominates like no other in the constraints that we need to see. and to protect their democracy can happen anywhere. then it can happen anywhere. [applause] so one last point is a shout out to those you may have seen on your way in.

and then to take the time for these dynamics and to think hard about how this works that those activist we saw and now with climate change and fossil fuels they are right. one of us but the country will get there. they will be part of what is to determine how quickly and ambitiously we get there. as a country. but the other thing that will determine how quickly and how ambitiously we get there is a country is how much of a grip on our governance, the oil and gas

industry still have because they are not going to get for your themselves into like pro algae, pro solar, like climate change heroes no matter what they are and see. it's not going to happen. not going to be with people that lead us for the that leaders are going to be people who are right and this from the beginning. and when that happens, i do say that there is one say we should be prepared for your that i'm not sure we are yet. one of the main reasons i thought it was worth publishing the book. when the climate crisis forces that make these changes, and when the climate activists lead us to the kinds of changes we need to make. oil and gas will lose its market share and power, the son only going to be an economic start about the industry, and about jobs and political in the political, sort of fight that were going to have about that. when the oil and gas industry loses its market share and

power, there will be a massive geopolitical impact of the world. because the oil and gas industry really does pop up in bad systems and governance everywhere. and when they lose their judge, when they lose their ability to get their way in the world, boundaries of countries will change. borders of countries will change when governments will fall. and there will be realigning in the world. and i say it is worth nothing scary about that but being prepared for your that. and who that brings us back to the score question of what will happen in the wake of that. when governance, the world over are shaken by the climate crisis and what half past have it in the fossil fossil fuel industry in order to cope with that. what's going to take its place in those countries. what is going to happen when bad governance is going on at the way anymore. will the rule of law enough and good enough example to spread its effects through those parts of the world that are going to be a crisis. or will those parts of the

world, flying to the rights and authoritarianism that we are staying in countries where the democracies. it is worth thinking about the strength of our democracy, our suffer the good news decisions that we need to make now. but also who that we can continue be a beacon. and that we can continue be helped. for the coming changes. all of the world where the united states remains the last best example of how to do it in the big scale. this all inherited that we need to protect. and then i say we just need to get very sober about it very quickly. who thanks. thank you for your being here. [applause]

>> [applause] hi. sue mckay. i get to talk to you. well. rachel, thank you so much. in such such a pleasure and i am honored to welcome you back today. and this is the last stop on your book tour. the grand finale. j. [applause] >> congratulations on running an incredible book. you've got a terrific review in today's, new york times from book review section. and it is number three on the bestseller list. [applause] and dino put the other two ahead of you are the bestseller list. two number one briefly and then i know i was locked up very

quickly by elton john and prince. [laughter] i gotta see, if you going to be paid by somebody on the bestseller list. elton john and friends. okay. will next week i hope you are back on number one. >> thank you. seriously, this is the great story. gotta see, it is difficult for your me to put the book down. once i picked it up. and you really, need a brilliant story. big her name. corporations, politicians, all of the sort of cost of characters. and i gotta see that i was really sort of laughing about it in the way that you made a rise in the pages of your book. you made them) that and more left back it is a page turner.

i kept going back and say page to page a chapter to chapter because some sort of brilliant phrase you had a little bit of irony of the chapter titles themselves. especially the last one. containment. it could be integrated in several different ways. >> oh yeah, containment yet. >> i was worried about the chapter title but has the russians were averted. about putting going to the bathroom. nobody is in trouble. i just here that it was not going to be published in russia. i was advised there was an agent from the publisher who apparently told that that there was political nuances which would not allow this. [laughter] i was like. never been prouder. >> it is apparently going to be published in ukraine. >> congratulations. [applause] so bring you back to

the story, his next book between big business oil and gas and politics. in many respects, this is an old story. with a long and complicated history and seeing yourself in the book. and still different examples, opec and saudia arabia amongst others. so my question here is, what is different about your story. is there something different about not only about the book but the moments where and right now. the make this distinctive. >> i say there are. nicholas: nothing is ever no. rachel: but there is something coming. which i was alluding to moments ago. that is something that the oil and gas industry has never faced before. it is a reckoning with the consequences of the climate crisis. in a deadly that climate

activists will win. i do believe that fossil fuel will be turned off. as an international major default source of fuel. it will happen because it has or haven't. and when that happens i say it is worth understanding what exactly are the contours of the continent our and influence the industry has so that we can continue imagine what is going to shift when those are withdrawn. i say that is part of it. but also just from an american politics perspective, we did go through something quite unique in 2016, with the foreign interference in our elections. and i do believe that that was driven at its core, russia developed in that post he is an area, as a diversified economy. exploited oil and gas but also had the pillars of its economy. i don't say that they would have the kind of desperation they have around sanctions. run sections which are

presenting them from continuing to go on loyal and gas but i believe that drove them to through the hail mary that they threw in 2016. so do you say it is because desperation is very dangerous consequential country that in a way that is affecting us and you say it is caused or should cause us, to plan in advance of what is going to happen with climate reckoning. >> the special little bit on this. the book it is about russian is the big player in this pretty minute very compelling argument for your why you say russia interfered in the u.s. elections. the evidence of that is indisputable. i say it is very clear. but do you say but the inordinate amount of attention that we are putting on russia and the interferences and propaganda, is hearing our analysis of american politics and do you see any pitfalls in putting so much emphasis on russia in terms of subverting

our democracy. nicholas: understanding the import of what they did. it's to act in the way in which i am sorta thinking about it over here. host: is that given the attention they were all putting in russia, russia, prussia, propaganda interference, and the elections. is there something that we are missing. in terms of our own responsibility in terms of what we do as american citizens and as american people. and what sort of responsibility do we have two different our democracy and he yourself was about a couple of minutes ago. i worry so much that with so much attention is focused on russia and the brawl, we are not having an conversation about the other part of this. nicholas: rachel: i say it's hard fair.and say that russia didn't elect, donald, that's what you are asking american people elected trump. and it was skewed by russia.

americans have made good and bad decisions in presidential elections. over and over again. and so i don't feel like we are ignoring that part of it. i don't say for your example, the democratic presidential primaries are not focus on leisure. their focus on competing against each other and that's a whole basis of that fight but i do say it is worth paying attention to this unusual and unprecedented thing that happened in 2016 for your me the reasons are included the book, i say it is because understanding plan since her for your it. the impetus for your it, it gives us a clear understanding of how to watch out for your in the future. and understand what is on going intentions by beat. so don't say it is a zero-sum game. don't say because you talk about one thing you talk about the others. but i'm not embarrassed by or apologetic about my interest in the topic. i still say it is a frequent science-fiction movie. host: sold me ask you.

i say you alluded to it here that we can continue say about how we can correct something in the future. and again, i say we can justify the united states we are seeing this happen all over the place. so do you say we are doing enough to make sure that something like this doesn't happen again. you say we are just ignoring the problems. >> soon went. rachel: i say you are right in the middle in it of it and we are still leaving the same story. and even just talking about upper echelon politics. they ukraine, at the scandal which is going to lead to the president being impeached. it is [applause] is the continuation in some ways of the story that was the weird ford enclosing the happen in 2016. it is a bizarre thing that robert muller gives his testimony one day, and july and

the next day, the president is like who else can i get to interfere. >> if it do me a solid. [laughter] do you realize, that it's actually one of the weird things about this. not directly answering a question but did you say it is strange that if the president wanted to solely joe biden in the 2020 democratic presidential nomination, and that race, and wanted to use this ukraine thing. why did ages denounce, ukraine is investigating joe biden for your blah blah. when it have to be true. he says a lot of things that are true all of the time. [laughter] he not only wanted ukraine to start investigating biting on the basis of the conspiracy theory but he wanted to announce that they were doing so.

in a way that was unnecessarily humiliating to the ukrainian president. anyway that shared ukraine to be subservient to the united states spread in a way that hurts ukrainian president and only actually in russia in terms of the way they've been negotiating against him. before do you worry about what this means for your united states reputation and foreign policy and global politics. rachel: yes. w. [laughter]. host: yes. rachel: i don't know where you go to get your reputation back. particular when it is about asking allies and strategic partners in difficult circumstances to trust you to be there when things are bad. with what the united states just did with the cards, and rcc in syria, when we go to get back that credibility. and how many generations will take us to get there and how

much work we have to do is nation to prove but we should be able to assert on the basis of a good word. you don't get the back. host: it's i say i could just follow up with that. i'm glad you mentioned the cards over here. in the war in the middle east, i say that one of the things some of my students, but are talking about this is that the american media brought broadly defined and sources in particular. the focus their attention on american politics. and we don't really sort of company here about what it is doing in other parts of the world. let's take an example of the wars in syria and yemen which is now the become the united states longest running war in its history. someone explained to the decline in terms of our attention and media attention on foreign affairs and sort of

international relations and global politics in other parts of the world. and what can we do about it. because i say it a real issue in terms of how well we are informed about what is going on but also the fact of american policy. and that is what is missed in this pitcher. rachel: i say the indictment namic the return about israel. it is also not new. i say this is been internal dialogue in this business as long as there has been is particularly long as there's been television news. and it is a struggle to get american audiences interested in particularly "in depth" nuance international news coverage is that noise has been. i would see from my own perspective in terms of dealing with that dynamic, it shows right have editorial freedom. and the thing that i have sort of went up against, which i don't know how to fix is that

when american politics are sort of normal or when things are even the fights of american politics for the progress of american policies but there is one on the market, it is sort of the way you wanted and expected to be. that opens up space to not only cover international news, but the impact of market policies worldwide but stuff like interesting things happening in individual space which might end up being a national concern because they're going to be things in other states are particularly outrageous. there is more room for your that went national politics is proceeding as national politics and when national politics is proceeding something between a science-fiction movie and harm away, when things are so strange that the federal loophole, you enough not just transfixed by that, but also needing to devote enough time to it to explain explain the weirdness. and it's up sort of eating up all of the time. i will send the michael bennett is one of the candidates for your president this year, but

that he has lined this part of the democratic presidential primary. which is he sent if i'm going to paraphrase impaired if i am present, i promise you will have to say about me for your weeks at a time. [laughter] i promise to be boring. [applause] [laughter]. and like my heart like swelled. erin assigned the bed turn in politics. you need to say about the dear leader 50 times a day. in a well-run country, you shouldn't say you have to say about government not much. but in a very fluently run country acting but your government almost to the exclusion of everything else. host: let me ask you about the book itself. there are some audience questions. did you discover anything that surprised or shocked you. >> stated yes. [laughter] you mentioned rex earlier. i am still shocked.

that he was selected to be secretary of state. he arrived at the white house, or transition meeting was ultimately offered the job. here i thinking he was going to give them some advice on setting up the new administration .-ellipsis secretary of state. trumpet government have before. he had just done a off trillion dollar deal with klezmer couldn't have been given a metal of gluten. in that half trillion dollar deal which is the largest oil deal in history of exxon red or indeed possibly a deal. that deal, was on hold because of u.s. sanctions. because of u.s. four collins steve with russia. and donald trump never met him and he was put in for your in charge of u.s. policy. that alone, is enough to sort of stop me in my tracks. the industry itself, was surprised at some of the stuff

that they are not good at. when i sent explained read both losses, those about the deepwater horizon read in the industry for your promoting itself as being prepared to deal with any oil spill because they had a mitigation plan for your making sure that any oil [applause] of walruses in the gulf of mexico is something that they had someone in hand handle. i don't know if you know anything about walruses, but it's not like a scene whether animal prey [laughter] this is the regional. if you go back to some of the worst oil spills in the nation news history back to the 1960s and 70s, what they had to deal with with those oil spills, terrible. if the school things that look like the dividers from some meats. and he filled them up with absorbent stuff. and they tried to contain the oil. and that they just sucked but rest of it up with paper towels and that's how they were cleaning up oil spills in the

1960s and 70 news. it's also have clean them up today. with paper towels. these are the richest corporations in the history of corporations exxon mobil broke the all-time corporate earnings record and corporate profit records year after year after year. bidding on record every successive quarter and what they have to clean up when things go wrong, his diaper filling. and paper towels and they don't do any r&d on that and that to me is like how can they do that. how could they have gotten this big and powerful rich that went out injuring having any further account of. that just blows my mind. host: son picking up the point. what you are talking about is corporate in paris possibly. what we do about that. he didn't regulate them. [applause]. rachel: you check with a review

essentially the way that they finished that review is by staying, this is not making rachel news book, has brought making big radical proposals on how to do this. in take a look at this has brought rocket science. take a look at this is about making sure that the interest of this industry don't outstrip and overpower competing interests are that just as important or more pounds. the need to be regulated and it is possible this the part of it where i feel like american citizens, and american news consumers are really privileged in this regard because that western oil majors are either headquartered here or do significant business here. as such, the u.s. government federal government, has the ability to change the behavior of all of the western oil majors at all at once by requiring them to do business that is more responsible.

even when it comes up out as bribing foreign governments, or the last sections of the book is about something really sexy, section 15 oh four. but it is of the dodd frank reformat. which literally requires oil companies to declare publicly when they were browsing of their countries. they just have to be open about what their payments are to foreign governments. so that people in those countries and those of us here and anybody else who was to activism on this issue can tell whether they are prepping people in order to get their way. and now it became law. and it and rex went crazy about it in the oil industry didn't want that. but passing that sort of transparency measure, would have a huge impact in the world. in terms of what companies are able to get away with. and learning governments in other countries produce a really small thing, about 1504th section of that bill. in the country, and would not change the world and one fatal

soup but it would've made it big difference in taking that industry away from some of that most toxic behavior and thus the first thing that the republicans in the trump administration overturned when trump was going into office. they didn't argue about it in one public debate about the made people who would shoot acutely mentally ill could made it easy to buy firearms in the oil industry didn't have to declare rush for your those of the first things they did when they got control. and if i knew more about that and we as a country new washed out more for your things out for your that and understood and appreciated the importance of this income i say we would fight harder to stop that from happening. host: couldn't agree more with you. but another depressing moment right now sort of up but this d regulations that are taken place. right. and so how do you access that from your perspective. restorative hopeful this and say

were going to be able to do again in the near future. see to it and then we need to appreciate what is important about the official government regulations. and we need to be able to understand not only what goes wrong when we recklessly deregulate but understand the positive benefit that would make a difference of we can argue for them. we can ask our elected officials to do those things and so we can make sure the fight may come on pressure. to appreciate the kinds of influences that erode those powers. i say it is worth understanding apartments. because when it comes to changing things, you need to know who controls the levers of power. because those are the influences that i need to be taken out of the mix, bartley shouted at. the more we understand these things, the better we are going to get at fighting for the kinds of changes that will make a difference. host: i say your koch that helps us understand the process of that. let me bring us back to the book tour. you put on the a couple of months out, and one of our

audience members was wondering what is your experience been like. which are takeaways. especially in live of the last couple of weeks with the impeachment hearings. speak up it is weird. and a off, the ukrainian national gas company likely in the french page of me. that is where. i was writing a book about this thing and all of a sudden it it is everywhere. but one of the things that has been nice, the first thing i did in new york in the first night that was published in the first place i traveled to was tulsa. because so much of the book is about oklahoma. and because i wanted to sort of give people a chance to yell at me a little bit. like i wrote about your state and the politics of estate and the dynamics and personalities here but, what i got wrong. and to go to oklahoma and spend time talking to individual

people and ended up being 3000 people in tulsa who want to hear about my book on the evils of oil and gas. tulsa literally has a golden driller that you downtown with theirs like this three-story high guy makes it drilling oil. and they have active oil drilling rigs on the state capitol grounds. including one that was in a flower garden called petunia number one. eleven is no against penn state petrol in the united states. together to talk to tons of people who for your whom the argument residents. even people who are adjacent themselves of themselves working the business or have friends who do. to me, that was heartening because i feel like this is an argument and isn't about good guys and bad guys in the united states who need to be of

partisan fight or not. this is about following the contours of power in recognizing national interests and standing up for your it and also different people can get there. that's really been heartening for your me. it is open just in also be nice to get out of the studio and out in the world. i am sort of chained to the little bit at work is nice to be out. host: i hate to bring it back to the studio. affect only have some questions about television and television news. i will redo it one of them. do you say that dramatization on television news, shows news as entertainment, and rankings and corporate profits and is contributing to the dismal state of our politics today. [laughter]. rachel: if we were more boring, we have better politics. [laughter] there's lots of different ways you can you news.

read the prep press all day long. i say american print journalism is one of the great wonders of the world. [applause] the way that i do a cable news show, i can submit sort of an internal mantra on my shows that we are trying to increase the amount of useful information in the world. that's kind of the test for your whether or not we should do something. does this help. they help people understand what's going on. is this useful information or are we just delivering the same information you can get everywhere. was it something that we can continue and provide a better context of understanding that makes this a more constructive weeks variance. and so that way that manifests on the show is that i don't have that many guests on. because a try are a lot. now try to explain what is happening is something important

happens in court the day, i am wheeling to redo the transcript of what happened in court that day. i know that's where. i don't know whether [applause] i don't consider that dramatizing credit consider that to be conveying the information the way that i say that is most useful. useful. >> but i try not to put people on tv 25 with each other or those that i don't trust her i think that they are lying.

or want somebody to say something onstage that's weird with this administration because i don't have a lot of officials on. [laughter] i don't value it in its own terms because that one have to clean up after everything that i say to you but most of what i do most of the people on tv every night are the from the washington post and the new york times and honestly i don't see a lot cnn reporters but they don't want to do that when fox news reporters they have a news division different than their prime time host i will put that on tv is that competitively beneficial probably not but my imperative

is to get at what's important in the world and what you should know and what might happen next. i feel there is a lot of different styles to do that and i'm tortured on a daily basis if i'm doing it well enough. [applause] >> and just to follow up on that a little bit to talk about media and politics the recent pew research poll suggests that both parties not only disagree about policies but also the basic facts. what is the role of a journalist or talkshow host

not only to convey that but more importantly to persuade your audience that fax really matter how do you do that quex. >> what you think about responsibility and role of journalism quex. >> journalism is the discovery of facts and exciting journalism are fax people in power don't want known and there is no persuasion that if you present journalistic information in the context in some other way that's what you're working on.

i don't think anybody consciously says i don't care about the facts or i only want to comport with my understanding of the world i aspire to be trustworthy the way they trust me. [applause] >> what are you up to next week? [laughter] >> tuesday wednesday and thursday this week there are impeachment hearings. and then there are two. kill me now. [laughter] i will fly to georgia tonight because i am a moderator of the democratic debate. [cheers and applause] which is awesome and also are

you freaking kidding me? if it was just my job on wednesday night i would be in clover i would love nothing more than to prepare for that incredibly intense anything can go wrong spotlight where i am terrified the only way you can succeed is if nobody ever notices you ever but then you disappear because only the candidates matter. anytime your noticed it is so high-stakes and terrifying. so in addition to doing that with the impeachment hearings i am very stressed. [laughter] this time next week i should be fine.

i would love to have a schedule. i said how long is this going and said i that we did on - - be done next week but now are not going to be done i think republicans want a trial in the senate to go through the democratic primary we will make you not want to be here but you have to be here. [laughter] we will put a will be cushion on your seat. it's stupid so forgive me it's a very small approach to a constitutional issue. [laughter]

[applause] >> i have a couple more questions but then we have to let you go. so you have a day job how did you manage to write this amazing book clicks. >> it was not fun. i like the stories that equatorial guinea is dark but it is fascinating the weird stories that were digging that out. it's interesting. like igor who runs the oil company he is a freaking piece of work. i like crazy characters i like learning stuff.

but you learn all that by reading and reporting and talking to people. >> i can't imagine many people who don't. >> when you are writing i find if your writing lecture notes were to talk to me i love that but what i write to commit something to print it makes me much more stuck up. [laughter] writing for the written word. so in terms of finding time to do it it's not a good idea to do a book on top of a day job like i have i was on crutches for four months of this line of an 80 -year-old i'm killing

myself. >> so what do you do for fun? [laughter] what is this fun of which you speak? [laughter] i live here. i live in western massachusetts. [cheers and applause] which is permanent i will never leave here. this is home for me i grew up in san francisco bay area. [applause] i work in new york during the week and i come here on the weekends i try not to work on the weekends i really try to have a life here it is not

about they don't think about sean hannity or ricks - - rex tillotson i drink. i fish. [laughter] i love living here and getting out of new york is the most valuable thing that i do honestly to be here and be on the river and living the outdoor base life is important to me and that keeps me sane. >> that's wonderful. [applause] >>. >> one more tiny question.

what about the movie? [laughter] >> where that dictator? come on. >> it is time for a screenplay and a movie. >> i have an excellent idea i will tell you about representation. >> thank you so much. [cheers and applause]

>> she was a member of the communication workers of america and went to her unions to word said this is a health issue can you help me? throughout the meeting estimate given her an indication of how she would not get very far talking to him she went to the company doctor and they said this is ridiculous you are ill your workplace is making will you have to stay home until the company works out an arrangement that you can return to work in a safe and healthy environment. and she think she'll be home just a couple of days until they figure out the office to accommodate her but then days

turned into months so now alarm bells are going off are they going to fire me why are they so devoted to this smoking office? while she's at home as an academic i understand as sabbatical you actually get some work done she immerses herself in the burgeoning world of tobacco activism she makes contact with the group called ash which is legal arm of the anti- tobacco movement and contact the local social movement and basically she learns she is in unchartered territory no state nothing federal laws governed the presence or absence of

regulation or of smoking so basically she realizes the only way this will be resolved is to pursue legal action so she decides she will sue her employer which is also a really daunting thing she isn't totally unchartered territory.

>> good afternoon and welcome all of you today and the c-span audience it is my great