credit for the wonderful things they do and they've given up all this terrific technology and entertaining, productivity enhancing to a certain extent but they're not so good at taking responsibility for the downside and not so great at admitting that they didn't do it all themselves. these qualities were basically built on federally funded r&d. the internet. touchscreen theology, gps read these were things that came out of the pentagon . player funded darpa innovations that were commercialized by the valley. and so you have very similar styles, you have this privatization of profit that socialization of bosses in so many ways. >> "after words" airs saturdays at 10 pm sundays at 9 pm eastern and pacific on book tv on cspan2. all previous "after words" romance are available as podcasts and watch online booktv.org.

>> we are thrilled to have the panel of four here including our author charles barber and instead of listening to me talk we're going to getstarted . first up is ivan cusick. >> is nice to be here in new haven. my name is ivan cusick. i want a criminal justice research agency. well, unit for the state of connecticut . . thank you. i want a small research unit syndicated to understanding the criminal justice systemin the state of connecticut .i work for the office of policy and management and one of my responsibilities is to look hard at the present system

and to reduce recidivism studies and other studies related to people coming out of connecticut presence over time. and i've been doing these studiesfor about 10 years for the state of connecticut . and one thing that i've kind of come to accept working in criminal justice is it's an area which doesn't prepare people to see a lot of good news. mostly the outcomes are generally not so good . so in terms of recidivism, for the three-year period following an incarceration in connecticut, about 60 percent of the people that come out of prison , among peopleunder the age of 25 percent . those are the numbers in terms of risk and outcomes, in terms of mortality and other things, people in the criminal justice system 10 do a lot worse. i'm not going to detail but

for example, we just looked at a study of young men between the ages of 20 and 40 who came out of prison and among black men who came out of prison and died within five years, 55 percent of homicide. like men in the same age group they died of drug overdoses at the same rate so there's something kind of devastating taking place among people to get criminal justice involved and when you work in this area you don't expect the system operates particularly well. so i'm happy to be here tonight is unfortunate to see one of the nice things that happened . a turnaround, i've seen a lot of very private and individual successes among people who been incarcerated and turn their lives around. it's nice to get an example where the public can see that people can really change and redeem themselves, to give

back to the community so i'm very happyto be here today. about four years ago , i had known william because of my in president and nonviolence and otherthings in connecticut cities . and i was aware of his story and i also knew charles, charlie barber because there's a direct connection here. i'm over recidivism studies i was working onrelated to sex offense . it just so happened that time , mister outlaw wanted to tell his story and i thought it was a very good story to tell. he asked me if i could write i said i'm not the guy. i can write, but i'm not the guy. but i find the guy by introducing to charlie parker i said what you guys sit down and talk. i'll just leave it if anything comes from this i'll be happy. so i'm today because there's a book. i feel it's really my little contribution to it. i was able to do something quite good and for those of

you that don't know, william outlaw, june boy , he had the fearsome reputation in the history of the connecticut department of connections among law enforcement within new haven state line, back in the 80s the ran a was known as the jungle voice was active and sort of dominance in the market in new haven. and the time, what was happening in newhaven was happening across the country . and june boy was sentenced to 85 years for his participationin a homicide and other crimes , related to the drugmarket in new haven . having to do with jamaican gangs that had started out in new york city, to new haven. so he got an 85 year sentence was reduced on appeal to 21 years. but in those 21 years he

cycled through what time was the worst president in connecticut, osborne which at the time was one of the most dangerous presence and he cycled through all the tears of the federal prison system and while he was there to see sort of the worst of the worst, incarceration could bring in what the population, exists who the people are there to so after he was released, he came back he . telephone. it was to, against all on really get a job at dunkin' donuts through the process of rehabilitation area i became aware of his work as i've been tracking gun violence for 15 to 20 years and one of the most effective things i see our community outreach workers that are actually in bed in the community who have a reputation , go out and understand the use of violence often affects people , neighborhoods in the state of connecticut. so this is really the story and it's come to light because the other side of the

story which is charlie parker and charlie is a writer in residence at wesleyan university. he's a lecturer in psychology at yale and is the director of connection institute which is a criminal justice research association. he's also a fabulous writer and is going to get up nowand do a reading . and i hope you enjoy andlearn something . >> hi everybody, thanks for coming out on a rainy wednesday night in new haven . everybody here so i set it up beautifully. he introduced william and i five years ago and i was a little scared of william when i first met him. we become good friends and had an excellent collaboration and we're thrilled at the book that's coming out weeks ago and is

getting quite a lot of attention so i'm going to read a new haven passage and then turn it over to william and his boss who is also here. so the book is kind of third, it's williams growing up in the housing projects of new haven which were pretty rough and getting involved and running a major gang called jungle voice in new haven. and then a very long stretch in prison and then the passage i'm going to read now is one of the turning points is not just a turning point for william, it's a turning point for 700,000 people a year who were released from jail in the united states . this is the moment of his release so i'm going to read a few passages from chapter that's called return and this occurs in the spring of 2008 so it's 11 years ago.

this is the day of williams release, he's about40 years old . he's been in prison since he was 19 so most of his life is now been in prison and they calculated it. he was 23 in prison, some of them only for one night. he was in six prisons primarily and he was so incorrigible within the connecticut prison that he was woken up one day and sent to federal prison in california and kansas and pennsylvania and returned to connecticut so this is the moment of his release from connecticut 2008. return, chapter 7. along nightmare was over. it was sex on a spring morning in 2008. outlaw left his prison cell for the final time. as he walked down the corridor to the front gate,

the guards were cordial. they didn't say what he had heard them say many times to departing prisoners , see you later or we will keep the lights on for you . they seemly said with apparent sincerity good luck. they put him in the leg and arm shackles one last time. he was transferred to the custody of the department of corrections parole officer. he was going to drive him to new haven. william outlaw exited the present doors and the first thing he saw was a maple tree 20 feet away. its leaves were fresh and clean in the sun and the grass below the tree was saturated with heavy do. as he stepped forward tentatively onto the ground outside the prison for the first time in decades , outlaws could not quitefathom what was happening . by this time he had been incarcerated for more than half his life. his jungle boys career, that's the name of the gang, by contrast only lasted 3 and a half years.

the fact that he was outside of prison was itself astonishing. had it not been for his appeal he would be in some other prison for another 60 years. he was living many people behind who had committed the same crimes he had and would not be released . >> .. approximately 700,000 people released every year from american prisons and jails, have were back behind bars within three years. the highest risk was in the first year. almost 40% of released offenders were rearrested in the first 12 months. outlaw didn't know the more urgent findings, two weeks of

release, risk of death, drug overdose, cardiac arrest, suicide among released prisoners was 13 times higher than the general public. outlaw felt confident about the changes he had made but he hadn't proved anything to anyone yet many people he knew were expecting him to fail. he knew many former prisoners cracked up when they got out, even preferring to commit crimes, prefer the world they did know, three hots and a cot, it was called, there was structure to an outside world that was now alien. as the officer drove the van into suburbia, outlaw saw sprawling new big box stores, target, dick's sporting goods, bed, bath & beyond each half the size of the city block. he had never seen stand alone stores of such dimensions

before. nor did he recognize the retailers. he remembered empty fields were entire neighborhoods of condominiums. the cars were smaller than he remembered. some half the size of the big american cars he used to drive as a jungle boy, and the traffic seemed far heavier than used to be. the van passed through a swampy area of north of new haven. outlaw found the section around the highway depressing as if a piece of the new jersey meadowlands had been transported to the middle of connecticut. almost reassuring this area was absolutely unchanged to him. just as ugly and toxic looking as it had been in 1988, the last time he had seen it. as they approached the city outlaw could make out small selection of skyscrapers that comprised downtown. he felt a anxiety in his chest. a lot of things would be waiting for him new haven. he knew, the whole town would

wait to see if he survived. a lot of people expecting hoping that he would fail. and some of the people he victimized or their families might be planning retaliation. others he knew would want him to start up the gang again, looking to get on the gravy train. once downtown the van merged on to interstate 95, hugging long island sound. outlaw saw the spires of yale rise amid the cityscape, he could make out passing thrillses of the harbor between the buildings. sun off the slate graywater. how long he dreamt of this moment, home at late. i will skip ahead a couple pages. things go great, sort of the first few days. he has reunion with his family. he is well-received. everybody in town still knows him. but then something happens and he can't sleep. and when i say can't sleep, william explained to me didn't sleep for nine days.

after, the first few days. i will read a little bit about that. five days later outlaw lay in bed. this is in the halfway house he has been transferred. the mattress sagged in the middle from his dirt. his feet protruded from the end due to his height. was raining outside. spring rains in new england could go on for days. outlaw pressed down pillow to block out the world. at first lack of sleep was almost a good thing. outlaw was so as stan niched to be out of prison, if he shut his ice the dream would be over and wake up in lewis berg or leavenworth and prisons he was at. he was overstimulated by novel sounds and sights. it was hard to break away from decades of routine that prison instilled in him. he had to decide for himself when he went to the room at night to watch on television. it was overwhelming.

as much as he tried he couldn't sleep for half an hour. by the fifth day he was hearing and seeing things weren't there he thought weren't there. the images in his head didn't even make sense. visions, molecules in the air or birds exploding in the middle of flight. it felt like a psychedelic drug experience. so, just one last pass an. he the way the halfway houseworks and halfway house is only couple miles from here, there is a two week period of orientation. you're allowed to go look for jobs on the street. and so, william is allowed now after two weeks of being in the house to go back out on the streets of new haven he has not been on for 20 odd years. he walked out of the house. with when he came downstairs looked out the kitchen window the sun was jell-o gold and sky

was clear and blue. the day was excellent and fair. he finally got sleep by the way. six days after the first intoxicating night of sleep. outlaw passed orientation periods. he had not walked freely on a city side walk in 20 years. not since he had given him up at police station. he walked seven blocks from walter brooks, the halfway house to the green. he could see four, five, six blocks ahead as he walked. the sense of openness made him anxious. the widest expanse he experienced over last two decades was a prison yard. as he crossed the street a car almost hit him. f -- you the driver screamed. he wondered if he could stop. no, one foot after another. keep on walking. he found a bench sat down. he not inintentioned to go to the green, there is not business on the green which is the

central most corporate business area in the new haven would hire a just released felon. it is as if he had no control over his destination. his body, feet, taken over, led him to where he now sat. he remained on the green for three years. he watched the city buses. he watched people in suits rushing to banks and restaurants. he watched the homeless people. outlaw looked at pigeons and discarded newspapers blowing in the wind. he saw how people cut their hair, how different they were from 1980s. heard the music from passing cars, completely foreign to him. he watched traffic, studied amount of space drivers gave themselves driving the car ahead of them. it was like he experienced things for the first time. everything was different. the parts of new haven at that hadn't changed historic campus of yale, few surviving stores of 1980s, didn't match his memory of them.

it looked like a drug trip out of a movie he loved so long ago, once upon time in america. his rise and fall turned out like the film. the whole trajectory transpired somewhere deep inside he thought it might from that moment in 1993 when butch pulled over on lilac street in his porsche and asked him to deal drugs for him. i will stop there. introduce, fast forward 11 years later. william a year after this release of prison got a job at dunkin' donuts, which he loved. he shortly thereafter he got a job as street outreach worker ivan referred to in the beginning where william and other colleagues of his were former felons have used their experience for good, rather than ill to do outreach to kids in new haven in the neighborhoods where william and his colleagues grew up.

basically saying don't do what i did. prison is the consequences and i'm here to tell you. so i would like to very briefly introduced, leonard jahad who is, william and jahad run the connecticut violence intervention project. dedicated to reduction of gun violence. leonard jahad is good friend of mine, also a big part of the book. grew up in new haven and was the chief probation officer for the state of, in knew haven and now the executive director of the connecticut violence intervention project. jahad. [applause] >> hi, good evening. i'm going to start 2018, the police chief had given me a call. at time i was chief probation officer. we had a collaborative meeting

with law enforcement and non-profits. one theme was juneboy is coming out. so, there was a little panic. juneboy's coming out, how was new haven going to react to juneboy coming out. mr. warren kemper was in the meeting also. he says i got it. so, a few weeks after that, project safe neighborhood meeting he was at the meeting. he presented to some of the people, some folks getting out after him, reentry folks and he talked. he didn't talk about the money that he made. how grand did i owes this image was or reputation. he talked about redemption. and how he wanted to be a redeemer. he wanted to clean up the city and streets he at one time destroyed. i was impressed by that. some of the other speakers, they kind of got a little, a lot grandiose talked about that. no, he immediately got my

respect. we forged a friendship. in 2015 upon my retirement from probation i took over the street outreach program. so last year, talking to william going out on other own, forming our agency, the connecticut violence intervention program, i said, jb, i think it is time. i think we need to do it. he said let's do it, let's do it, boss. so we went out on a dream. got it done. no way i could have gotten it done, no way we would have gotten done without his support and his passion. william, i talked about the redemption but there is also a side to make this, to make this whole thing work with street outreach you have to have a credible messenger. he is a credible messenger for the program. he is honest. he is sincere. shows a lot of empathy and a lot

of emotion as you can see. definitely an emotional person. very few times that he does mediations. he is my chief mediator for the program. that he doesn't get emotional. talks to young men and women. gives them a hug and shed as tear with them. my program. we have weekly meats meetings. i look forward to his humor. the loud as he can be, boisterous laugh and patient with the young men and women. on the way here i received a call from foster parent agency. they asked if i. i said of course. capacity i know him. a young man returning to new haven and the person that he keeps talking about that could really be the deal breaker, whether he has success or not in the streets was william outlaw and his relationship and support

he can receive from him. so, this young man, i mean if i say his name, everybody would light up in the room. most people light up, especially by his nickname. so i did mention the young man, william's fiance. she was like, please do not talk to him about this young man. of i think i know what the answer is going to be, with the support, i think this young man will be successful. this young man did say, i know if i had william in my life, and i'm not putting any pressure on you, but if i could stay with william i know i would not get in anymore trouble. so, that is just a credit his commitment and his convictions, not only that young man but everyone, all the young men and women he touches in the city of new haven. so without -- [inaudible] >> he definitely does not do

this work for the money, i will say that none of us do. i'm happy that he is here. william, he uses his sense of humor in therapeutic way with not only people that he served but our collaborators and everyone. everyone that he touches and even the books. at this time i will announce to everyone, ladies and gentlemen, mr. william outlaw. [applause] >> oh, man. good evening, everyone. i want to thank everyone for coming on this rainy day. those that are here, those of you that are here, it means a lot to plea when i see all the people out there. the people here, man, really

know me. >> it's all right. >> it's your time. >> first of want you to know, these are tears of joy. there are no sad tear coming out of my eye. these are tears of joy. my brother sitting for me waiting for me to get here and, he wanted his brother. i came back. i grew up with him. i told him i was coming to the community. he told me what he was going to do. he did what he said he was going

to do. that mean a lot to me. i sat here, waiting, watching everybody trickle in here. i got in the front row. another one of my friends. then i see my two boys, man. that understand me. that know me. from hartford. came all the way down here. i'm going to cry. they doing what they supposed to do. they haven't been back. we give strength on each other. we don't always talk and everything, they got my back. they always had my back. even when i was in prison, they had my back. the last man, my partner man.

my right-hand man, sitting here. been home probably year and two months after doing 30 years flat. he came home and, seem like everything is coming together, man. you know. he find his way. but you know. so glad y'all here. you're on the right path, you know. finding his way after 30 years. i've been home 10 years. i've been doing 20, i'm finding my way and it is not easy. i'm saying you never been in the situation you can never understand that. it is not easy. it is really not easy. it is not easy. it is not easy work when you have been in some bad situations like that. and went through a lot of

untreated trauma. there is a lot of things we go through. defendants go through a lot of untreated trauma. last but least, my mother, man. i'm on a emotional roller coaster right now, because good things are happening in my life. last week me and jahad opened our own program which was wonderful, tremendously. i said a emotional roller coaster. one day i get good news. one day i get bad news. my mother is in the hospital. she hasn't seen none of this yet. she knows what people report back to her. i would like to see, make her proud and see that, you know. , that i'm doing my. ivan, man we met at the registration. we had a conversation, it was so good. ivan i need a writer.

i can't write. somebody for you. our friendship is real since. don't let the bow tie and fool you, man. ivan, ivan that is the gangster ivan. really good man. really good man. he introduced me to charlie. i met this guy charlie. you know me, i'm a street guy first man. first thing i did investigated charlie. wanted to know all i could, know all about him. so i asked around. looked around. googled his name. he wrote a crazy book. the book was good, so it wasn't, but i didn't think charlie could pull this off, book he wrote. he was in a whole different field. he was coming around. i will be honest. me and charlie worked on the book five years. a lot of people didn't believe me. a lot of people in my family

friends, didn't believe me. i'm working on a book. writing a book. a lot of people didn't believe. know what i'm saying, didn't believe. worked on this book five years. my own family, friend, you ain't writing no book. you know, that gave me strength though. not that they didn't believe, because they wasn't seeing. we in a world now, everybody got to see everything. somebody else got to tell themrap or say son, we believe in the technology world, microwave, facebook, everything fast. so people don't believe.

you know. change, when you change. you don't give effort, nobody else think about you. you don't care with nobody think about you, when you change. when you get on this side you don't care what nobody don't think but. it doesn't matter, what you think about me. it really don't. or this program. it really don't. so, that is when you know you change, you don't care what people think about you. it took me a long time to get that. you know. my prison experience, doc sent me away on punishment.

came and got me. transferred me out and punish me. read in the book, five of us left that day, that week. -- killed, brought backpack in body bag. a lot of them lost their mind. the federal system was very vicious at that time. we believe sent us to straighten us out, some of us to get killed. we have to do what we had to do survive that that is untreated trauma nobody in this room can experience b you can read the book all you want about the situation, if you ain't in it, ever lived it, untreated trauma that i have to live with every day. other side of me writing this book, charlie sent me back to see a psychologist, i was digging up so many woman and coming out i need a psychologist or i will lose my mind. that book, i thank that book.

that book, was a blessing to me. not just them saying, it was a blessing that i dug in there. got therapeutic part i needed. trying to get every day, trying to force the mental health is very serious. we need to really tackle that area, especially african-american men, don't like to see a school exist. we know that it is not real. the most powerful thing i'm so proud of to this day, my men's group. i run a men's group every thursday for 10 years from five to 6:30. for 10 years i've been running this group. 10 years, i got men that come to that group been coming there eight year, seven years, five years, still coming. every thursday. five to 6:30. these men, some are doing better than me. they're ex-offenders. we come and share. it is therapeutic. if i don't have that group, that

understanding, i mean and my psychiatrist i don't know where i would be. i don't know what my mind would be, might be on the green like rest of them, lost my mind. you never hope where mental health take you. i thank god i got that group. my family, you know, beautiful young lady, right now, hopefully next year, she don't keep getting on my nerves that we get married. she is my rock, without jermaine, without some days it would be hard for me. she push me through some days. like what having call your soulmate with you, somebody that you can hug and, what is really going on with you. and, that es, like to thank you for being so patient with me because i know i put you through

a lot. my time is always shared with other people but you always right there when i need you. and, last but least, before i get off this mic, i know i'm talking about, get into the q&a for those that red the book, we want to move this along. makai. i met makai when he was four years old. i think i still something in him. every year this kid make the honor roll. been honor roll ever year in school since i've been in his life. a rolly smart kid. he is my stepson. i call him my stepson. that is another good thing that god brought in my life because i was never there for my own kids. i was never there for my own kids.

and, no placed him in my life like my own kid. i have a 6-year-old son that autistic that i'm raising too. makai was my first interaction with fatherhood when i came out. that was big. a lot of people don't understand that. i was, he wanted to be a father so bad but my kids was grown now. my dream always pick my kids up from school, wait outside, my kid will come out, know what i'm saying? i never got to do that. i got to do that with makai. so i'm grateful. this book, i want this book, man, to be able to touch across the united states of america every youth, criminal justice biases. take the biases out. because i came out of prison, they got assessment. the assessment said william

outlaw will die or return to prison within a year. that is the assessment they got in prison. when they leave prison they do assessment on each individual. based on your criminal activity. the way you was acting in jail. based on who you hung out with in jail. based on your phone calls. what you are writing in the street. based on all that. much this assessment that fails because i knew in my mind that i wayne going back to the street. i knew in my mind i wasn't going to hurt another human being. i knew that. i made that promise to god in myself. i knew that. i knew change was within me. so the statistics and criminal justice system has a lot of biases, that they need to fix too. i want this book to be example, that one can change. one can reform. one can reform. the book will open the door to a lot of things. have real dialogue.

what works, don't work as far as prison. what people really think about ex-offenders come out, can't get a job. when do a person do change. everybody don't change. a lot of us do change. but the stigma always be there to sound like this come out. i'm glad to be the front-runner of this. because i want to lead by example in my work and my actions and in my deeds. this ain't just a book that he just put out. you can go back to it. you can share with young people. you can share with law enforcement. it can be a good discussions in colleges. law enforcement that work every day in the public, that think you know what a person going through. so this book will have a lot of dialogue and bring out a lot. again i like to thank everybody that came. i know a lot of people in this city. i would like -- i'm crying tears because i'm people telling you,

the people that, one thing i don't do. i don't forget. i don't forget. these people that showed up here showed me they haven't forgotten me. that is what it means to me. i don't forget. that i come down the road, i don't forget. people showed up here tonight. you showed me respect and you showed you don't forget me. that means so much to me. you just don't know. thank you. [applause]

>> so, we're very interested in questions for all of us. i'm sure a lot of you will want to ask william questions. but can also be to ivan, jahad and me. any questions? >> my question is for will. i have a two-part question. you talked about mental health. you talked about untreated trauma, currently seeing a therapist. how did you go, what was the transition in your mental state like when you went from being a big name in the street to then transitioning to prison to being a number, then coming back out and having to redefine who you

were? and, the second part of that question is, you talked about redemption which is commendable, we're extremely proud of but at what point was your ah-ha moment you said, you know what? this is not who i am, this is who i want to be? >> i think the ah-ha moment was probably was 12 years, i 12 years into my sentence. so my last eight years, i probably ah-ha moment. i had a situation too in the book, my daughter at the time, she was in catholic school. her grandmother had custody of her. her grandmother called home, they wanted to take her out of catholic school, put in public school. you will stay in catholic school, better system, all that, she said, dad, did you finish school? at the time i didn't even have a

ged. i broke down in the phone. i just broke down, couldn't wait 15 minutes. i hung up. staggered back to my cell. laid in the bed. i got up. i went to the school. signed up for school. left school and when to the law library and studied books. four months i had the ged. i am somebody. nothing can stop me. that thirst for that education right there, the light went off, where my education thirst went crazy. i started using computers. every program, everything to do with education i started tackling. that was one of the main turning points, my education. the light bulb went off. a guy by the name of frank james he told me, man, yo, man, you're a good dude. you go home. all the other fools ain't getting a chance. you got to straighten up.

between those two incidents back-to-back was one of my turning points. the first part of prison, talking about leaving the street, i was young, man and i had a lot of money. i mean a lot of money, man. and, it was a nightmare to me. when i, you know, caught the body and i went to jail, they took me up north. this was up in summers. this jail, here i am 19 years old, i got $100,000 on the books. came from city of new haven, white officers, racist officers, in my face, acting like they want a problem with me. not knowing that i'm here for a problem. that was my attitude. it changed the culture in there. i changed the culture in there, that was first time i really experienced racism. i thought this place would be a

place that could wreck me. they felt like they was making me dig deep into me against you, you know what i'm saying, mentality? summer was not then. it wasn't nice then for me when i arrived there. and they end up four years into my, transferred me out. that was the best thing that happened to go me. i went to the feds. i was not even federal case. i transferred out. i think about the state of connecticut. if i was there i would have killed somebody, that is no question in my mind. that how bad summers was and police was. cos wasn't playing fair in there. it was to that. society, like i said, if you wasn't there as parents you can never imagine.

>> i have a question for william and charlie. william, you mentioned that, you wanted this book to start a dialogue at colleges, specifically, both william and charlie, what do you want college students and professors to get out of this book? >> student, i want them, i want, to be honest with you, i want white students, privileged white students to get out the biases, take away the biases and your grandmother. the situation we in now, the heat remember is didn't work. if you're young, seeing, reading book, i'm not say disrespect your parents. their theories don't have to do modern day theories. when stuff was tolerated and not okay.

i would like young college kids and their professions, lawyers, doctors, whatever, remove your biases, do best of your job, not because of your skin color but because you're a human being. [applause] >> i think that william and i met weekly for five years. i tried to do a really deep understanding of the crucible he came from in terms of the early childhood trauma, the public housing, which was, was brutal. the public education system in new haven at the time. not to excuse any of his behavior but to understand the structures that he was born into. as ivan said, if, ivan and i grown up in different circumstances who knows where i would be but he would be ceo of fortune 500 company and republican you said.

but i hope that students can understand, especially in this era of such divisiveness and lack of curiosity about the other half, that, folks and readers can understand how such talented guy as william got where he got and now got where he got. and so the book is really the process of his life. so i, if i can convey the depth of experience and feeling behind that, then i will be successful. >> i'm so sorry. i'm so sorry because before i would speak in public or anywhere, i always go first of all by saying that i need you to understand, it was some victims in my case, i'm deeply remorsed for that i have to carry rest of my life. that should have been first thing i took the podium.

my regard, regret for that person is always the forefront. i need you to understand that. that person is always not forgetten in my life. i need you to understand that. i don't want to take for granted this book, where i am now, that is not acceptable with me. that will lay with me for a long time. >> hello. congratulations on all four of you for putting this book and this project together. there has been a thing going around to ban books, even in prison systems. familiar with the book, the new jim crow, do you think your book will fair well in the systems around the country? >> i'm going to have ivan take a

crack at that. >> the books prisoners are allowed are screened, at least in the state of connecticut by a panel that screens books. normally what they do is they screen them for excessive violence or for hardcore pornography. exploit tatetive content. several years there was a book by wally lamb, who works with connecticut prisoners, who had written about a young woman who had a very difficult, traumatic childhood, had been sexually assaulted. that was in the book, the book was banned in state prisons. wally lamb, regularly did, toured prisons, and at library, librarian said we have to lock up your book. we can't have it anymore. it created a firestorm. it shed some light.

i don't think there are problems with books like michelle alexander's book and other things. that said, the prison system, the books allowed in are screened by people who are not not -- >> like william. >> you know what is surprising about the prison system in connecticut, since william got there is the prison system is a lot more, there are more minority representations among ceos and staff at the prison system than there was. i think there has been a movement that way in the state of connecticut. so the conditions that he saw at summers which is nows born has changed considerably in terms of the population. there are now women ceo's in men's prison. men's ceos in women's prison. there is a lot more diversity among the staff. the fact there is lot more diversity among the staff, those

issues so stark back in the '80s, can't exist anymore because now the relationships exist among guys wearing blue, regardless of gender, they see themselves on one side and offenders on the other. there is a different dynamic that is constantly evolving in the prison system i think at least in connecticut. not to say it is a ideal system. i worked quite a bit there. i spent a lot of time in prison. what i have come away with is that, everyone's experience who is prisoner or guard is different. >> as far as percentagewise, do people that actually make decisions on the books, i appreciate the diversity you were saying but, who actually make the decisions on which books will be allowed in, so forth, so on? >> i can't speak to the ethnic and racial composition of the panel that screens the books. i would think that, sort of

whoever is on that panel, there has to be some representation. i can't imagine that, don't hold me to my word, i'm not on the panel. >> that books would be screened because of political, philosophical, idealogical content. >> i think we would know by friday. i have sent some books to the prison. so i would like to know, i will know by friday did the prison receive the books or did the people access the book too? i should know by friday if they get it or was told a letter saying you can't get this book. >> one last question, it kind of leads to that, as far as like you mentioned you got your ged. some prisons across the country there is cutback even in the libraries or scholarship programs. >> state prison. federal prison, education is like a must, amongst the

inmates. like a must that you get education. that you have some type of, education. i got associate. in federal prison system, penitentiaries, there is must you get education you are filtered out. >> when you say a must they have to get classes? >> for me to take you on as a friend, education is pushed. it is really pushed in the federal system harder, especially in usps. federal sieve has degrees. every time you hear somebody went to the feds, they didn't go, you got levels. you see in the words united states penitentiary, atlanta usp. if you get usp behind the name. that is united states penitentiary. that is level five, six. fci, that is medium. that is country club. if you hear low, it is one. if you hear camp it is a camp. a lot of kids that get federal

cases they go to fcis. not too many go to the united states penitentiary is 75%, never leaving. >> thank you. i love your questions about the library system, the prison system, a lot of things turned life around but one of them was the library system. by virtue being in the federal system, the federal library system is described to william by me is superb. he could request a book and get it in two or three days. this was after he got the ged. this was his self-education process. just to give one example. he was in leavenworth a notorious prison in kansas. was in solitary for nine months. when he got all of solitary he went to the library, he got a book on the history of leavenworth that had been a best-seller the year before by pete early, which educated

himself about solitary in leavenworth and how leavenworth works, who was ran leavenworth, aryan brothers who threatened william's life. you can read a funny thing about that. one of the blush blurbers for the book is pete earlier. i love your questions about the library system. becoming a educated system as william described to me was really fundamental turn around. >> how are you doing. juneboy, i'm proud of you, congratulations. i'm from hartford you know. i met juneboy inside the walls. in the beginning wee wasn't good friend. at that time prison was a little rough. so you know had his side. i had my side. but when all said and done we end up being good friend. it is a blessing to see him

being here doing this i'm very proud of him. i want him to continue success. don't look back, man. we came a long way. only people inside the walls understand where we're coming from. it wasn't nice there. at that time it was necessarily nice. we survived. continue doing what you're doing, man. proud of you. >> thank you. >> william, appointed commissioner of corrections, what is the first thing you do? >> probably revamp the education department. probably get rid of, revamp that education department because, in prisons, education is first. in society, for us is poverty. so there was case of poverty and education. i would revamp the education department. i would start there. revamping education department,

get more culture conscious. get more latino teachers. black teachers. more diversity. i probably give out incentives, if you get ged, take six on the months off the time. why is that, why is that important? we was in jail, we first got to prison, right. though used to take 120 days off your time, find a shank. dudes would make a shank. put it in garbage can. tell the co, shank under there, get six months off your time. they caught on. dude, with five, six years, pull that stunt a few times, he get a near knocked off. that was on books of doc. if you find a knife, go to, you find a knife, tell co. knife is over there, you get it,

he will right you off take 120 days of the sentence. take the same system, tell them if you get your ged here we'll take a year off. that would give them incentive. eye-opener, once he get the ged, now we can talk about, think about taking a trade. think about going to college. think about being a plumber, carpenter. the dialogue would start, instead of, hmm, i went to four trials here in new england. i had no education. sat in the first tile, dumb. on projects, your honor, that is all i know. i went back to wailly avenue. stole another book. stole a dictionary now i'm in the court the next time, every word they say i'm writing it down. i got to study these words. i didn't know. i had no education.

damn, went through first trial, dumb as stack of bricks. they was in there doing all kind of stuff. uneducated. the first step to, that is the first thing i would do. >> anymore questions? >> [inaudible] >> as far as you know, what kind of deals were going on behind closed doors, as far as prosecutor or ever. >> there wasn't more deals for me. i went to trial the first time. i lost. they gave me 60 years. i went to another trial i lost, i got 25. so that made the sentence 85, listen from 1988 until 1992 i was in summers prison at age of,

20 years old, with 85 years thinking i would never going to come out. by the grace of god i sit here. not because of anything else. by the grace of god i sit here because of the grace of god. i say this for those four years, 88 to '92, i was losing my mind literally. couldn't sleep at night. a lot of stuff people didn't know. you can go in the cell. crying all night. how you get yourself in the situation. what are you going to do. i started planning escaping. i starting mapping the place out. i'm getting up out of here. i'm not listening to nobody in here. nobody in here will tell me what to do. mentality for those four years, i didn't like myself. because i was in the situation where i don't know what i would have done every day coming out of cell. 85 years, you're never going home. every time i get a conflict with

a guard, will die in here. he might leave a envelope. i got mail. note from cos, you will die in here. that is the type of games they play. those four years, i wasn't used to that. coming off the street, with pocket full of money, flying all over the world, i'm living this environment. for those 4:00 years, it was devastating. very devastating. >> how much did you end up paying your lawyer before you went to jail? >> well, out of respect, out of respect for the lawyer, we're not going to answer that. >> thanks i appreciate it. >> we, out of respect for him. but that is in addition to that, i really, i'm going to say this. ivan grumberg and willie dowd

office in 1987, you get prices for trials, murder trial and you add it up. and you add the prices up. my thing is, nobody said where do you get the money from. you asked, nobody upper said, where did he get the money from to afford him? they though i didn't get it from my mama. damn sure never got it from my daddy. nobody never asked that question. read the books about history of new haven. any questions? i remember i used to be in school. i used to be scared to ask questions, right? i would want the teacher tell me, i would be worried about

people going to say, you ask that dumb question again? yes, sir. >> my question is in regard to prison reform. i know spent, time of your life in prison, what do you think is like there needs to be done considering prison reforms now? >> well, you know, first, let me tell you something, prison reform is a new fancy word. two years ago it was reentry. the government gave out a lot of money for reentry. now the government will give out a lot of money for prison reform. most prison reform, most reentry look like you, late teens knows and blacks -- latinos, and blacks, a lot of money need to be made. prison reform, we'll shed light on it, will be a conversation. how do we get the prison population, how we make people coming out of prison better people.

what do we do as community. you as community member, voter, what do you want it to look like? do you want the person coming home without this or that. starting out, we hear from the prisoners, let's hear from the community. homeowner like y'all, let's see our ideals. our ideals are not always the best. people in power ideals are not always the bets. prison reform are heard from all frames of community. all frames of the world, young, old, get to the table, get honest prison reform that is working effectively. >> i think what you're saying william, to have people who have been part of the system, everybody part of the system to have a dialogue? >> right. >> have an open dialogue with everybody's perspective. i would like to thank everybody coming out on this rainy wednesday night in knew haven. my guess it is still raining

outside. william and i will sign book. we like to thank c-span coming out. harry cohen from bookstore, yale bookstore. thanks for coming out tonight. [applause] >> booktv continues now on c-span2, television for serious readers. >> been a remarkable year for books that have been tackling the uses and especially abuses of this country's criminal justice system. we in politics & prose have been honored to host authors and poets behind many of them from martha, to reginald betts. the first event we hosted this year at this location at the wharf was for alexandria, investigation of the misdemeanor system. punishment without crime. this is