trial continues, we thought we would show you and afterwards program from 2016 within a majority leader mitch mcconnell, joining conversation by republican senator lamar alexander from tennessee. and wrapping up tonight primetime lineup is university of texas officer michael and, he argues that democracies are being unraveled by a new class work. check your program guide for more information. and now, joining conversation might new york times columnist thomas friedman. >> many thanks to all of you for making time in your day to join us. our gathering today includes ambassadors and representatives from across. across these printed from iraq and jordan and rocco, tunisia, turkey, yemen, the netherlands, norway, australia, and ecuador. so from the four corners, we come to hear you. we also welcome distinguished

board members. and selfless splendor of middle east programs here at the atlantic. and finally we welcome private companies and nonprofits. i predict a rich and substantive question and answer session following the discussion on the stage. open to everyone. this richness, of the discussion will be enhanced by the absolute superlative interviewer. will draw the kernels wisdom. trump freedom needs no introduction but simply for fun, i will remind you that you can read his analysis of foreign affairs and new york times and analysis for which he has won a prize. he is the author of several books and several focus on the middle east. one of which from beirut to jerusalem was a textbook and might middle east text work in my undergraduate work. his bio is printed out here.

>> is non- resident senior fellow at the atlantic council career center for the middle east. in addition to reading his work on our website, you can read it on his own blog, middle east corner. he retired from 25 years in the u.s. foreign service in 2013 at the rank of minister counselor. no small feat. he taught at the national defense university and at northwestern university. in his last overseas posting, he served as the deputy sheep of mission at the u.s. embassy in yemen. until about 2003 during the iraq war, he served as department spokesperson at u.s. central command and joe hawk and in baghdad. it is bachelors degree in political science from the american university of beirut in his masters and phd in political science from the university of new york and albany. he has published articles on issues of leadership and development in the arab world. journalists south eastern asia journals. try to keep them all straight if

you can. when he was posted to yemen in 2004 i recall a conversation that i had at the time with a mutual friend of ours. former ambassador to the united states. i told him that the u.s. was lucky to be able to send him out to because he is fluent in arabic and understanding of the culture. he was with the way for his work and country. but i was corrected. oh no he said, the opposite is true. arab-american governments in the region have a much harder time because everyone in the country expects the formative papers for them and make exceptions for them and they don't get rid of the same respect is known to, because i think we don't have to listen to him. and in addition, when your government does something to the local so what, they hold the error americans personal leave responsible for not preventing it. we are eager to hear your thoughts on being an arab

american diplomat in the middle east during volatile relations. as a reminder, the ground rules are as follows. we are on the record and if you would like to joined the twitter conversation about what we hear, use the # ac middle east. please come to the stage. the floor is yours. [applause]. >> this is a great audience in a treat for me to be here with you. thank you for that great introduction. by this book okay. they're on sale after. and it will be autographed. we've known each other for a long time. we were in baghdad casablanca and in human over the years.

i don't know much. another counselor many things but i am a connoisseur of people who know the difference between the brush in the oasis. another real middle east. i was always drawn to and because of that. he really knows the region and it's reflected here in this book. and for me it is fascinating perspective an american or an arab american perspective on american diplomacy, and i work as a diplomat in the region and particularly in iraq. this was during an incredibly heated time. just for starters, so everyone doesn't know you as well as i do. tell us your story. how did you get from lebanon to senior position in the u.s. state department. >> is all mistake. [laughter]. first of all, think you'll for

stopping in for lunch. and for some after lunch conversation. it's really very special. in a very special thanks to tom. something we have done several times over the years. this was including being in baghdad, he stopped by a couple of places where i was assigned. in baghdad, i would take him around, like in morocco and meet some people. in baghdad i took him to meet a friend of mine, a very secular person. he was as secular as they come. he invited us to dinner at this place. what we did know is that he had the grandson of khomeini. so the four of us sat there

conversing a good couple of hours. the time came back and wrote something about the dinner. he expressed how optimistic he felt that there was such secular people. really thoughtful leaders and promoters. in the country in iraq and back in 2003, it was hot and it is still hot. the book from this discussion today, begins with a poetic verse called you have your lebanon and i am mine. he expresses and is a contrast between his vision of the beauty of lebanon and lebanon as a symbol of diversity, cohen news existence, harmony, coexistence.

in the analogy back then, 100 years ago or more, was the opposite of secularism. it was corruption. he might as well of written this yesterday. the situation in lebanon is not changed and fact is gotten worse. because the corrupt political elite, has not only run into the ground but the around the country to the ground critically. the environment is in terrible shape. it i think if you were alive today, he would say, all this time and nothing improved. the book also ends with a very short poem by a palestinian poet. it is called the postman. and he talks about hymns dealt

self as a palestinian poet. a like sent lichens into a postman that he has messages to deliver but he no longer knows who it should go to or where. and something is a retired diplomat, i was very munched engaged. i still want to have an impact. sometimes you wonder whether you can still play a role and where and with home. [laughter]. this is a long way of saying, my coming from lebanon and i was born and raised in lebanon, gives me a deep feeling, not just for lebanon for the entire region, and so whenever i work in any of these countries, i deeply felt the issues and i deeply tried to bridge the differences, no matter how how wide the gap, and in baghdad, in 2003, it was certainly wide.

>> so bunker diplomacy, the title does this reflect this, you saw a transition that only through as well of an america whose presence in the middle east was deeply embedded in open and integrated with society. in into an america they had been behind walls. is basically diplomat and the embassies. i was actually there for the moment when started it was april of 1983 and i was in my apartment, actually at one oh 6:00 p.m. and a blast happened so powerful and actually knocked the transistor radio off of my desk. transistor radio kids was this little radio. [laughter]. as i had a typewriter. and had keys. it created pressure. [laughter]. and around my apartment and it's

in manado. i saw a smoke curling in the distance somewhere in towards it. as i got closer and closer i thought i couldn't be. when he turned the corner around and there was the american embassy. i remember asking diplomat what happened. and he said, man drove the truck up the front stairs of the embassy and blown up in the lobby. into things i i always remember about that incident is one that my shock. you he mean you mean he killed himself. screamac it just seemed incredible to me that someone would commit suicide. at that time how incredible it was. and the other was that there was no perimeter. you could literally walk up to

the front door and ring the doorbell and there would be a marine in sight who would let you in. will flashforward a few years later, i also love the title of your book because of this. i don't know if any of you have seen the u.s. embassy and assembled today. think fort knox. only more secure right. so i was where i had gone out there for an interview and an old classic had been in the heart of this and the open part of the marketplace. i was interviewing a u.s. diplomat he said look at this embassy. as like a fortress. and he said that when there was the terrace to blow up the british consulate, they captured some of them afterwards in the interview them. they said we actually wanted to blow off the u.s. consulate but it was so secure don't let birds

fly there. an eroded homework or some five. so where birds fly, were lit birds don't fly, nobody goes there. you live in the open integrated reggie from america to the societies. to working out embassies that are bonkers. indistinguishable from military bunkers. what was that like. what has that meant and what are the obligations of it. it's so much the theme of this book. if. >> in alexandria egypt, and open culture facility. we no longer have those. we used to have them all over the place. it was a nice beautiful place. we had one sleekly policeman sitting in a cast by the door the door. people walk ten and actually the

brotherhood, that branch was supposed to be that tough branch. came to one of my roundtable discussions at the center. any engaged a former congressman by the name of paul finley. and after that, i visited him in his home and he would come by from time to time. the discussions were always intellectual and friendly area there was never any sense of hostility. the only thing was that the ambassador, at the time was on a trip to alexandria. nice and indeed i was with the president this week. and he said as your culture deceiving these bad people. i said, where engaging in conversation and i said you want

me to stop and he said no keep doing what you're doing. so this kind of open this kind of atmosphere, quickly changed. this openness. and it start leak changes in the region. his shifting. to radicalism. arab national etc. read in the turmoil that created. very popular reactions. do you have policy in the region which over the years never seem to adjust. i remember because i was a spokesperson, mainly with media, we open an office of media outreach in london. i became well known figure. i remember coming back from baghdad to london, and in baghdad i a lot of times had to

carry a gun because we would be off of the green zone. people did have time to send protective task force. so my friend and colleague, at the time working there, work for dod. he would always carry a gun. he would put a gun in between us in the car and he would say this is for you. just in case. and we have a veteran here with us who remembers this. he's an egyptian american arab. he took me to the shooting range with him to practice. a feel for what happens is you feel the danger. i was at the hotel when it was bombed. this was 27 rockets hit that building as i was hiding under my bed between the bed and the

wall. you become a soldier. and you say, people don't understand the diplomats particularly american diplomats. they face the same dangers the soldiers in the battlefields face. but they don't have the training. you don't have the perfection usually. >> literally missing now because of that. because so many diplomats really need permission from security to go outdoors and have a meeting. if you can't be spontaneous, i'll meet you for lunch or coffee. >> you can not go into the embassy without an appointment or going through security first. you can gluttonous places without having an armed guard. in yemen, used to have not only a bodyguard and the driver and hard carpet also in human because there are people in with guns behind us. i had my own personal card so i

had to ring my own security at times. i would have to tell them i just want to go out. i want me people. don't worry, i will let you know i am. we squawked to the villages. tell stories about that. i had a british friend, a diplomat. i would go with her car. because their cars were not soft when you exited. american cars were. in the story here is there is something special about american diplomats. because the french and the brits and the chinese certainly don't take the kinds of precautions that we do. and they're not attacked and surrounded and burned by our like our embassies are. someone has to ask, is partly the region but partly is something we do. partly it is the image we project. and it's usually an image of

stupidity and arrogance. that rubs people the wrong way. they feel let's go after them. one of the russians of the chinese french. >> so in writing the iraq section, i noticed a certain melancholy in the word moore's attention. so many things wrong. some things that went right. between the donna note the saying, the french revolution escalated between different periods. maybe mark democratic periods. were saying it in different ways in different places. a lot of different places have a different version of it struggling to find his way towards pluralism. >> i use that line when i was a spokesperson in baghdad. i would trace very angry journalist.

personally i did think the invasion of iraq was a good idea. but i did my job. but as a spokesperson and i was lucky that way, i never went with officials talking points. i engaged them as a person, a human being. i responded with the academic in me. . . . . . .. >> so i want to get rid of that and i identify with that but at the same time i understand the american

soldier in baghdad, rubs arabs the wrong way and all over the region from baghdad virchow there is something about the troops marching into an arab capital that they react viscerally. so what do i say we are villains clicks no. think of it in the long term. the arab world sees against dictators like that and many people would tell me they didn't want to demonstrate against the us so that's for when saddam was getting rid of. so it goes to a very ugly.

it was the french it wasn't the us coming on horseback so to get rid of a bad dictator like that you have to look long term. >> what's the difference between the arab spring of 2010 and 2011 and the kind of manifestation we are seeing in baghdad right now? because they are quite similar and it felt like the arab spring was against the tyrant whoever that was but this is real content like secular society virchow is that a right or wrong impression quick. >> that's quite right.

tunisia was a cakewalk compared to syria or lebanon or iraq. because of many reasons. and they didn't have the same kind of diversity. but in places like lebanon and we can't talk about syria because of the devastation. but places like lebanon and iraq to have genuine people of the world is not about israel or the us it's about people linking hands across religious sect with christian in fact the christians are more right than anybody else. with a genuine feeling that

the corrupt political elite so the republican side of this is that the negative side is lebanon doesn't have one where you can start fresh. but then meaning get through all of them if you put them on and then ship them off to cyprus or something. the problem is the various political interests get in the middle for what could be a very serious reform plan. somebody in the leadership of

lebanon today you know this ministry and that ministry that's what they are arguing about. i told my friends in government forget about it he is a jackass in the position of prime minister. the important thing is present the people with the plan. how you change the system from sectarian corrupt to proper democratic republic. and then to start implementing it tomorrow. and frankly each side benefits from the system and they don't want to get through those advantages. and the problem is the militia they haven't solved the

problem of the arrangement if you will not destroy the militia carries the weapon, at least you have to have a good political understanding especially with iran intervening the whole region intervenes in baghdad. so i feel i look optimistic in the long term and the arab youth will stumble and there will be a counterrevolution but i think they finally understand they are being abused by the corrupt political elite. >> what should i hope for regarding syria quick. >> that such a sad story.

syria like other places like yemen is a disaster but just hope against the assad regime. it could not have been helped not with any invasion but it could have been assisted at the right time. it's one of the quotes of the obama administration. i like obama very much as a person and as a president but there was too much hesitating before acting on something like this. after everybody in the region jumped in it was too late then of course the rushes - - russian c americans were there so they jumped in 2015. after that the us had no cause to play.

otherwise you're not invited to the poker game and we haven't been at the poker game since 2015. there is been a lot of discussions but assad is very much in assisted by russia and iran and was - - lebanese has law. has law. so he has asserted himself with that humanitarian aspect will take time. and for people just to make a living. but then you have to go back to the established assad regime that is corrupt. if you could do it politically i would love to see one arab

dictator and i read the tea leaves so come in with the opposition and let's see how we can do this. but it's not happening. >> i have developed some rules for middle east reporting. rule number one i will share with you that any american general assigned to the middle east should have to take a test of only one question. do you think the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. if you answer yes you can go so who are the diplomats and military officers who really understood the region and why? what was it that they had because some have just been completely lost and really

with others the region flowed through them. >> over the years particularly in baghdad and then again in yemen i had considerable contact with the military at various levels also teaching at the marine were college i was with the lieutenant colonel's. usually there is a fresh look at the military officers and people and government elected official officials. >> and on the streets of falluj falluja. >> and just one anecdote but he was ahead of centcom and he came over for a visit and the

war had just started with the houthis in the north. so when we were waiting we said what's going on this is something we should be involved in. they said no not militarily and then they tried to convince us in 2004 iran was there it is a rebellion of sorts they should be able to settle through diplomacy so it's not international terrorism we can help diplomatically to direct your friends to mediate and also

economically. the system has worked for everybody otherwise if the government fights and fails that they would want to secede in the whole country would break apart and they lobbied on the hill to get more state money. and was someone who truly understood that force should be the very last resort and that there were preconditions to my people became radical in the middle east. and then to become more democratic of people of human rights the problem is inconsistency. we never got with that cold

war mentality getting in bed with a dictator because of the security operation and then to fight soviet influence later on. and then to abdicate and sign off some of us in government and we don't name names and there were different points of view. that we are still trying to convince people. it may go but let's keep the security established because we work with them against terrorism. we were never able to let go. sometimes i think certainly

this administration forget it. with a very narrow vision. that obama was a very intellectual man and understood the region or even before the need for democracy and wanted to be of assistance. and yet when they rose they hesitated and the famous phrase leading from behind but then repeating the 2003 baghdad and more importantly he stayed in bed with all the security forces in the region

that he handed yemen from saudi arabia and facilitated the complete siege air land and sea on yemen and spreading disease. and going along with that this is not with the direction they should be taking. but the problem in yemen started with obama those who swings from the region you have to do one to catch the other and that you can reach and grab onto the other bar.

you have to drop the bar you have been holding onto. and then otherwise they are out there creating terrorism. which is the young people of civil society and then you saw that when you came to visit me in morocco. the civil society that i saw in morocco in the mid- nineties really inspired me and then i fought on - - saw selections of that sizzle on - - of that society to look at the budgets and you will see. >> when you say why didn't you invest more in tunisia

correctly answer was there was no terrorism there. >> so this reminds me from the wizard of oz are the houthis a good or bad militia? on one hand i get it with their story but but their right to take over the central government i don't understand that story well enough. >> i have accused by my arab friends because i appear in the media a lot i harshly criticize saudi arabia and not the houthis enough. just like in egypt i was accused one time.

this is not in my book because it just happened on my way to lebanon i stopped in moscow and i met with the leaders and then to go back and forth for obvious reasons. and then i told them first of all i was there to get to know them and then to point out some positive things to change the situation where we made the first mistake militarily that the euphoria to move on and take the whole country so this provoked the saudi's. second they did have control in north yemen.

they had not ruled well. of using the rights of the media there is no transparent system and then i said people side with you too much because at the end of the day you are the yemeni. and their obsession with saudi arabia that we are fighting iran in yemen. and i said but you have a lot of mistakes and the biggest is that you are arab and they all laughed unfortunately the area you control so they are certainly full of fault but at

the end of the day they are not al qaeda. it isn't to go out and kill americans. they wanted to control their country and they should understand. and they are now forced into a corner was zero iranian interest with the houthis. many members of parliament this is where the houthis were that they had to go more and more to iran and stronger the

influence it would be may be has for law with expert technicians iranian don't go with many of their own people to the extent they can snuggle in - - smuggling more equipment but what we give the saudi's who are invading yemen and has been in control and what have they done? so that the end of the day houthis are at the middle of the road they are not the lebanese army. >> was it right for the administration to assess quick. >> no. i thought that was a very bad idea or judgment. first of all forget the lying

and the imminent threat but at the end of the day is a political assassination. you pick the personality and the leadership position and if you got rid of it you would improve matters. in fact they made matters worse by doing that. one is because removing a person it doesn't really change the picture to be institutionalized and within seconds of his death he was replaced. so good or bad we are not talking value judgments but tactics. so what is the goal if that's the behavior for the bette better, then partly they did not understand and the peace

that he is an overrated general but the fact is for all his mistakes and all the bad things he has done very militarily and culturally those that we consider enemies now that i don't think the president understands that. and i doubt the people around him. those that gave him this option so why put it as an option in the first place? >> there is that certain psychological element. but killing somebody like that

if we like it or not is very important for people in lebanon and iraq. >> that will generate hatred and revenge and we don't see that with the bombing of the base here we go to fight off a rocke rocket. >> before we go to questions we have to mention the israeli policy. so where does it stand would you say in the minds of us diplomacy and diplomats? and how we address that problem?

first of all, as a conflict between the palestinians, i felt it was a dead end. but i don't see any ray of hope. but as far as us diplomacy when people say what about the us and israel? but the us despite many attempts but as the us has failed the whole world has failed and the people in the region have failed so i fully understand i don't want to say blind support but unconditional support.

so it does not work just even talking about palestine all the time that does not mean. >> given the issues of this administration it's not a peace plan. everybody sees it for what it is there was some commercial interest and that's how it seen in the region and frankly that's how i see it. >> before we go to questions i have my genie from the lamp with three wishes for policy in the middle east. >> for american policy. >> you can be king for a day and redesign our policy.

>> that is embedded in this book you can redirect the policy. >> one of the reasons i started and ended with poetry in the book is the need to understand the arab world and the middle east. and then through the speech given by politicians. and one of the strange things i did as a diplomat but with those palestinian children and

the hero seven years old or ten years old and he lambastes the arab regime. and i summarized it called poetry and politics. and i said these people are the intellectuals of the arab world. they have their fingers on the pulse. >> and then to get into the culture we've had diplomats over the years to understand the culture and the language. but first of all they are not being listened to.

>> the other wish is to finally abandon the autocrats and to understand the arabs much like other people desire freedom and democracy. don't listen to racist things like that that they cannot deal with it that's what young people want. they want to live in dignity by the security apparatus which we work with. so they see us propping up the regimes and they are angry. i wish we could finally make the break and say were hanging with the wrong crowd and we need to cultivate.

and half the people that genuinely want to improve human rights and those democratic practices and do away with the corruption frankly. that's my second. >> my second rule of the middle east we always overestimate ideology and underestimate governance. how people are governed on a daily basis that matter so much more than all of these ideologies. i actually cover the last day of voting in the egyptian election that elected morrissey over the ten day period and we went to an elementary school all women go we stood outside of interviewed women when they

came out and everyone was covered and they all said the muslim brotherhood except one. and i said why streetlights, more jobs, more security, more healthcare nobody said if i see another woman in a bikini i will blow myself up. [laughter] and it was so telling a lesson of your point. in afghanistan we were aligned with criminals that some people saw the government is it any wonder to underestimate the relationship between the government and the governed? and so much more important than any other ideology. >> that's exactly right. >> i will give you number three later. [laughter]

>> just introduce yourself. >> i'm an intern at the german embassy i'm interested of the chinese in lebanon and why you think protests are genuine and ongoing and not present here and in europe and how do you think they could get involved and the situation there quick. >> the problem as i was explaining earlier is what starts off genuine with that

system it ought to be changed. then to be pulled in different directions they get the protest that they get something that they want or something that they don't want then they pull the people out or worse they send their people in to create chaos with the demonstrators. there is a strong genuine desire for change. my friend in iraq was studying before and that's the last thing you want especially in a country like iraq. and then look at the mess he left behind. look at afghanistan.

so lebanon we have to be very careful. so start holding seminars so don't touch the people in the streets. and when you approach a hornets nest be careful the way you poke it. i think certainly behind the scenes combinations, this is not a place where we should step in strongly that a light touch is better. in the end lebanon you do not want to provoke violence that i have some friends and we exchange views i say the last thing you want to do is against the demonstrators

because it would do something far worse than what you have right now. as complicated as the lebanese situation is some people in government have their own think tank for those that are demonstrating to put their heads together to come up with a serious reform plan and everybody in lebanon has ill-gotten gains. but it seems that if it really matters to you then you really need to consider how you approach a system like that. how do you stop worrying if you have enough with the

government? and it is difficult, but it is doable and then we send ideas to people and sometimes we listen to them. [laughter] >> i'm doing my phd in natural relations. if i could push back on the issue of democracy, if i may i want to point out the issue for persians because if you look at their history, you always have someone at the top. and 2020 is still the same thing. do you really think the middle east is capable to have that western-style democracy? or should it have its own style of democracy quick.

>> go back to the people with the revolution or the history of the middle ages to see how western culture use to be. so we look now and say the persians and the arabs they don't understand that's not true. the need for freedom everybody once it and everybody can get there but they are going through what you went through in the middle ages right now and hopefully it will not be as bloodied. but i don't despair and say what they need to do but they need to be given a chance and agree on a new social contract.

>> you give the very excellent presentation of economics and job creation and rule of law because we travel to the region over the last 40 years to say i want dignity but first i want economic dignity. >> absolutely. lebanon again is a microcosm and is a good example. supposedly the lebanese ran out of money but after they were denied the vote so now it

has been reinstated. the middle class has been impoverished but the rich people are doing very well and many of us happen to be involved but what is needed the prime minister we are banking on $11 billion from the conference in europe to help save lebanon. you don't need the injection of cash in a corrupt country like that. i use to say that in yemen.

encourage new industries and new businesses but in lebanon is more productive economy we have a ponzi scheme at large those that are shuffling the money around but the very basic services if you can provide that electricity it has been years since the war ended in lebanon and they cannot ask that because they don't want to they can't even pick up the trash because it would be creating jobs than nowadays that absolutely you need to move the economy to

produce and put the young people to work. >> thank you i agree with most of what you said but i am interest about the attitude against t14 qassem soleimani even though we know the iraqi government is behind the attack of the us embassy in iraq. his killing gave a boost of the iranian government and the syrian people those on the hands of qassem soleimani.

so getting rid of the man is the symbolism that somehow it is very ironic that they are actually benefiting from what started from tunisia to lebanon and egypt from that foreign power and you know that it is a genuine uprising so my question is how do you think at the same time that would affect the syrian issues.

>> you can say as much as you want about qassem soleimani or anybody else i am not arguing he's a good man or a bad man that depends on where you stand. that is somebody else's symbol of the way to get to heaven and we all think god is on our side. maybe qassem soleimani deserve to die. he did want to be a martyr. but i hope it doesn't turn into a bloodbath just because you think somebody is bad and when you pick on a person and say that's an important leader

does that change iran's policies? >> if you are fighting a war then pull your resources and fight the war and therefore don't go picking people because they can do the same thing to you. and if those successors come after and american general what would happen then? >>. >> this is the last question. >> so know that qassem soleimani now that he is killed what is the feeling in the arab world? also the positive and negative

with that retaliation? >> as usual if you are on his side which includes a lot of parties and militias and individuals but for those people it is a tragedy and they want revenge but the other people who hate him and what he represent represents, but that small that's just the environment you are in. the way the us is very polarized right now but thank you it's not through weapons and explosives. if you really hate or love trump and if there is somebody

from the other side there's no change is not just everybody you disagree with. no. you have to find some accommodation. but that would never end. >> one of the lessons everyone wants to own you they cannot own you nobody puts their arm around you to say i really appreciate your honest analysis. but i really do appreciate your honest analysis let's give him a big round of applause. [applause] he will be signing books afterwards. thank you very much