constitutional democracy isn't it reassuring to know that truly no one is above the law? >> to access all of the c-span and booktv archives on impeachment, visit our website, c-span.org/impeachment. here to talk to fox author of the new book life undercover coming of age in the cia this is a wonderful book. i encourage everybody to pick one right and the author is right here where she's signing copies courtesy of beak people

i'll give a quick introduction and ask a few questionses and leave the last ten or 15 minutes audience questions. we're going to have a microphone withes a microphone set up heren front and another one in the back. please silence your cell phones beef we start. don't have any surprises. so even before he finished studying in oxford before 9-1-1, before her writing men daniel peril capture and killed fox invested in international affairs having taken off a great risk --ke a message out of burma when she was just a year out of high school. she eventually got a masters in conflict in terrorism at georgetown school of foreign service where she develop withed algorithm to predict terrorist attacks based on 200 years data. at age 11:recruited for cia where she analyze haded classified cables from foreign

governments. soon afterwards she was selected for advance spreption training and d sent infiltrate terrorist next and middle east an asia working undercover as art dealer specialtizeing in indigenous art it is not a huge surprise to hearl her book called the john novel come to life. [laughter] and shanghai she and her husband who was also a spy rendered surveillance by the chinese so they have to talk in code all of the time. the housekeeper was fine. but people in the street were keeping track of their movement. the place was bugged safer i think one bathroom, and then as if it wrpght enough of a hall of mirrors, we found out that ca was spy on chinese who were e spying on them so they knew what chinese knew about them and left the cias offered insights to cnn international geographic channel reand bbc and spoken around word on the peace keeping. currently developing this book as a tv series starring brie

larson with fox executive producer. she's also working on a young adult novel and upcoming netflix documentary series called business of drugs. ladies and gentlemen, a.m. amaryllis fox. >> thank you so much. i'm wondering if you can talk about the way your real view started and it started at a really early age. only yeah i think it was kind of a bletionz and curse that i moveds every year of my childhood. a lot of that time overseas, my birthday is in september and every september i would start a brandd new school. [laughter] nd not know anybody. at times that was challenging but it also gave me a sense, time and again of being at home in the world, and this idea that the differences in wardrobe or

accent or cultural habits were really just window dressing. you know that you can drop a this thell any park world and make frensdz and you can same humans and same types exist everywhere. and i think that that was kind of a -- philosophy that drove me as a young person to be really drawn to journalism and to being able to share those stories from these far places with friends who-f i would see periodically when we came back home to states who had a chance to run around in those soccer fields with different folks. and that what led e me to quarts a teenager. >> can you talk about about what drew you and know to go there, and then because you kind of sounds like went not really knowing where you were going to

land right -- >> yeah my poor mother luckily in days where it was okay to go to cybercafe once a month and e-mail so she didn't know a lot about about it until it was over so i -- my last year of high school i was back in washington, d.c., and i had really fallen in love with a floss flocs philosopher and theologian and experiencing carries and experience him talking incase it was my last opportunity and that day i.t. i don't regretop doing that becaue it was powerful and he talked about fact that he studied a world religion, and nonreligious philosophies and found that the notion that we're all part of one whole was at the core of all of them. and that really stuck with me

which is good that it was worth it because when i got to school next day my name was on daily list i went to see the dean. and given friday detentions but i also turned up in class, and found that the final assignments or finaled papers had been handd out and i got the one nobody chose which was on the political situation in burma. and i -- you know grown up moving around a lot but i didn't really know anything about this political situation, and the the more that i learned about it, the more this one unarmed woman's peaceful fight at time against this authoritarian military regime that was really sort of similar to north korea at the time began to fascinate and inspire me. and a so in thinking about takig

a gap e here, before university actually before even deciding to take the year itself, i took my prom dress money that my mom gave me and instead of buying prom dress i went to a travel agent back when there was such a thing web and bought a ticket to thailand. and a idea was to do a couple of weeks on volunteering at a refugee camp t on thai side of e borderer and at the end of the o weeks we went back to the airport and bangkok this volunteer group and i -- and i was at gate and everyone was getting ready to board, and i just had this really strong instint my work there wasn't done and i said to team leader i think i'm going to stay. which he was not remotely comfortable with because i was 17. [laughter] but you know he had other teenagers to usher h on to plan,

and ultimately let me go and iing walked back out the doors and headed back up to this camp. and while i was there continuing this volunteer work i met more and more of the residents that were publishing a democracy newspaper in on decision from the jungle using a mimi graph machine and they weregl preparig for protest that were planned for 9/9/ 9 to topple the regime and they wanted to be sure if there was any violence it was documented. and with the kind of immortality that we people only as teenagers i said i'll go and document that pep at the time they stopped issuing visa and or toist visa so only get in if you have a business visa which i was a

backpacker and had no access to, andd called collect a guy i had met 15 years my senior and investment banker. but i had met him at a free burma rally while i was researching my final paper i said to him this is aing long shot. but how would you feel abouting taking a couple of weeks off work and coming to thailand so we can pretend to be married and go burma on your business visa. [laughter] which seems reasonable at the time. >> to his credit we did exactly that and went to bangkok where you can get anything and we got a forged marriage is of certifie and if we got film we have to get it out so we packed with the idea that we would wrap the film around them in order to conceal them and get them out.

anyway we went inside and protest never happened because the -- because the security was sopr tight at the a time. but we did have the opportunity through these to interview one under house arrest at the time to try to get her words out. and we were warned that if we did that wein would probably be t.detained by military. did it anyway. and spent two hours with her which were -- fascinating and extraordinary at time and then we were detained when we left and eventually deported, and for me that a a beginning off understanding how powerful an hour or two of truth telling from a single human being can be even in the face of all of the military might in the world. >> because you were able to successfully smuggle that message out and hear with a woman and mother with no arms --

available to her, and was so threatening to the regime that they were detaining people just for talking to her and that was a really electrifying idea to me that a the truth and the pen and word could be that powerful. and e it really made me start out at oxford doing my undergrad committed to idea of helicoptering in that work and becoming journalist. >> so when you're finishing your last year at oxford september 11th happened and -- i was just wondering can you talk aboutut how that changed yu because you were sounds like very close you were in d.c. is that right? >> i was in d.c. -- oxford starts in october so going into last year that i was home. and i was watching my mom walk ouringing do in a park across the street, and our neighbor pulled up in a bag and racket and said to me turn on the tv. and i turn the tv on just before

the second plane hits, and my sisters were in cathedral school at the washington, d.c. at the time and they weren't sure where cathedral was a target so they were e evacuated i remember being with my mom and dog in our jeep trying to get some of the two little girl and school uniforms standing e vabted on the sidewalk outside the school, and it brought back for me the first loss of my life which was a dear friend of mine laura who in third grade was on flight that went down over scotland with her sister and her parents their whole family. my moll waited until three days later to tell me it was better they were on the plane buzz there was no one left to grieve and television the first person that i knew who died and i loved her very much and all of that really came backas to me.

picking my sisters up after 9/11 and then fours after that this journalist who i met once briefly when he had done an evening for a aspiring student journalist at a bar in dupont circle when i was still a student but i admired him immensely because he was israeli journal whois wrote with such dignity and curiosity about the islamic world and really was a hero of dialogue and pluralism, and so after the kind of overwhelming scale of 9/11, the incredible intimacy in a way of the loss of danny to the world really struck me as terrifying that this was a new and different kind of war. d that not only threaten lives t threatened truth and dialogue

and the sharing of experiences around the world that danny represented. and i went back to my dad's advice after laura dieed when shees died i really struggled wh it, and my dad has said to me eventually pl you know if you don't understand the forces that took her, you're going to be overwhelmed by the fear. we fear thing we don't understand, and he had introduced me e to the newspaper. and as a third grader that was just a completely transformative thing for me, and i read with real care and a not superhealthy but i felt as though characters name i couldn't pronounce most of the time -- seemed remoteon but that at any moment they could kind of jump off the page and take another one of my friend from the air. and learning to understand what their relationships were with one another and how they gave

rise to violence was really important to me as a kid processing laura's loss so after 9/11 and the violence that came of a g it including daniel peris murder, i returned to that idea that if i wasn't going to be overwhelmed by this i had to understand it and that was when i embarked on that project he mentioned that algorithm. >> and cia approaches you and take the job and a start looking at cables and there was one in particular that i think but this is before you were received -- when you realize that a man who had been taken and beaten and starved was the the wrong man. and i'm wongdingering if you can talk about that moment -- and how you reacted other people around you reacted. >> yeah. i won't get into the sort of operational details on that

anymore than they're in the book just because they've been kind of reviewed and elements that were necessary have been omitted so i'll let it stand as it is written. that particular case was covered very thoroughly and widely and heavily in the press. but i think that it's -- i think that it's indicative of one of the great challenges that we all a faced after 9/11 by we all i mean americans and allies but also the subset that we're serving in governments and military intelligence organizations which was this terrible tension between having signed up to serve on behalf of the american ideals and city on a hill and a moral leadership that were so important to maintaining america's position and credibility and friendship in the world.

and then this thing that happened after -- after an attack as significant as 9/11 which is fear and velocity based reaction where things happen whatted really quickly, communication isn't always crystal clear, and i think it is no mistake no surprise the mistake were made. and i think that what is critical now is that as a country and as a community we're mature enough to learn from them and not repeat them and analyze them and i think we've done that in some areas better than others. i think we've -- i think we've been quite thorough in ouring examination of whether or not torture is something that as americans we want or can tolerate and whether it is, in fact, even useful and

practical aside. i'm not sure we've been thorough about extrajudicial killing in drone program. so it is a work in progress. but it's i think on all of us to have those conversations as adults and as americans. >> i wanted to discuss two controversial who have come up in book one is out of cia insider, training, and which is raised some question about the cia stamp of approval so first i'm wondering did you hear anything become and what did you hear back before publication and then -- the second part of that is -- there was some people who criticize scenes of being implausible i know you've addressed that before but i want to give you an opportunity to talk aboutdi it here. >> sure. one of the difficult things about going through the review process necessarily is that you know, there are operational details that have to be changed

and there are operational details that have to be omitted with very good reason. and so then you know, as use set out to share the interaction that kind of knocked lessons into you over the course of a career, it's about figuring out, you know, which interaction makes sense given changes and omissionsbo to include and which to leave out entirely. i -- for me it was important to just put up front on the front page that changeses set to be made. but i don't think it was as significant a challenge posed a big problem for me because this book is really about a personal journey you know it is not an operational beatgn by beat heres how the bin laden take down went or in particular operation happened. you know we heard a very detailed account of an operation this morning, so -- there are --

or there are important omissions. but for me this was about not just coming of age as a wife and mom in any 20s against the back drop of the war on terror but it was also the evolution of a perspective because when i started giving that background, 9/11, thewh killing of this journalist i respected so much danny pearl, it really honestly wasn't with a view to -- to really to peace making or finding common ground. it was i was young. we were at war, and we were afraid and it was pretty much with a view to wiping adversary off the map. and over the course of a career, and interaction after a interaction, i realized that that just is a fiction. it doesn't work. i mean, it's not a fulfilling way to live but it also risks creating more adversary than you destroy, and adding to the

heads, and i think there is a more long term and a holistic way to bring an end to this conflict we just have proven time and again that we cannot prevent violence through violence alone. you know? over 17,000 years of human history so -- well with that sort of brings me to my question which is i didn't expect a book about cia to be a deeply spiritual book or i didn't know to call it spirituality or personal philosophy but an idea that human beings want the same thing you point out graffiti in a taxi in pakistan that says remember the other person as you. which had just really as you say a core and you say i think i found that deep down most targets you're to be part of saveing lives or bringing liberty to the land. can can you, talk about what yr

own misgivings at times about that being practical and how that evolved over the years? > spirituality has been a hue part of my journalny i mention since smith as a teenager, while i was at the oxford i studied law and theology which was an interesting combination and way that they informed one another. butti that theological study of each was world religion and, in fact, indigenous traditions and nonspiritual philosophies really did reenforce what i had heard from houston smith himself had is that notion that as you say the other person is you or we are all connected or -- and part of one collective organism that cannot exist in isolation and we know that from a scientific five right pragmatically to be true.

we all share this island in space and our -- and our activities are never in a vacuum there's the for the buckle that told for thee and that was something that i learned academically as a young person but i think in the kind of school of heart knocks in my 20s where oftentimes we humans sides of the conflict will -- will take a short-term solution because of the illusion that we are with isolated in the ramification as won't come back to haunt us and then find that in the long term it actually potentially endanger more people than not doing anything to begin with. and we've seen that in terms of our alliances over and over again with the enemy of our enemy, arming of groups that are expeed yengt in the short-term.

and tolerance on all sides of this conflict for civilian casualties which is such a -- fueling because of role of alienation grief, humiliation and personal feel physician plays in planting seed of violence and extremism. so for me the -- the simplicity of treating people with dignity even when you disagree with them emerged as a very, very powerful lesson, and sometimes they think we can discount that as a kind of like your grandmother's advice and it iss noting prague matting so on -- in the real world. but it is actually the most pragmatic thing in the real world that i discovered the entire time i was out there. i e tell the story sometimes of khan who is the founder of the network that is responsible for

spreading nuclear prier precursr material and not just seats but to terror group and nonstate actor and here's someone who has done more to endanger global security more than anybody else and when -- he talks about where he took that turn, off of life normal path he tells a story of being a teenager on a train after separation and he saved up for a fountain pen, his pocket money and he loved it and he had filled out the custom card and when indian guard took the card, he said i'll also take that pen, and he said no i love this pen you can't take it. what do you do to stop me and khan in his brain at that moment feltlt so humiliated and powerls

and angry unaware that have fair thanks happened to him and inability to do anythingll about it that he said i'm never going to be powerless again spks never going to be powerless again and that morphed into this abhorrent program that had put globe in danger you know taking and exchanging with libyan in order to do so on and on -- and, of course, that's not a rational leap from having your pen stolen and many gone through that and not walk down that path.om but i think sometimes we underestimate the power of one momentnt of humiliation to fuel violence, and like wise the power of one moment of treating somebody with dignity to quell violence.. >> sounds like that you use when you're trying to get somebody to work with you. did you feel like at least in the book that i'm sure that there's a lot you know you kind

of have to speed things up. but did you kind of know the moment always to kind of hit people with that idea and say come on we believe this same thing. i know you well enough now that we believe the same thing hads, and did it -- did you find that usually it took someth talking into or by e time youou brought that up did they know you well enough that they were like yeah. yeah. >> takes time for all sorts of reasons that had to be in the book so it it is a slow process in the field. but it starts right with your first communication with anyone. i think that we are more sensitive to authenticity than we realize, you know and when somebody manufactures a reason to connect, we feel it. and the -- the need even when faced with somebody who is involved in sometimes horrific spasm of

violence to -- to search for some glimmer of humanity in order to build a relationship over months and years to coax this person to a place where they can actually move to helping prevent tax rather than participate paing in them is really soulful work actually. andit it's often lost in our pop culture depiction of intenls work because the kind of roof gymnastic and juggling works better on the screen. that is really just kind of a safeguard first of all juggle don't happen at all because you blow your cover but evenus the trade perhaps that ds happen is -- is not the point. it's just there to safeguard the actual core work which is relationship building with those who it's hardest in the world to

listen to. but most important if we want to bring an end to this conflict. >>d one more question and get to the qrk and a but who do you hope reads thise book? who is a main audience for this and group of pee people. >> i'm happy when i talk to yuck women who are reading it and i think there's a lot in there for all different walks of life. but young women i think, see, see a different kind of national security picture from reality and don't realize how important their contributions are and can be you know what we see on screen is this kind of either no one that involved or -- like the high boots door kicking kind of depiction, and it's so -- dismissive of the substantive important work that women bring

to the world. and are actually uniquely well suited for. you know, this is an alternative to the kinetic often violent necessary solution of the military that is based on emotional intenls, and relationship building and intuition and multitasking and these are things that feminine problem solving often has great strengths in. so i really do hope that young women, young people of color, young people from diverse backgrounds who don't see themselves on screen in this work realize that actually they're ones that we most need doing it. not just is in the intelligence world but in government, in the military across the board and policy making. >> well i want to open it up to the floor already got somebody up. that was quick. [laughter] gogo ahead. >> art dealer as a cover during part of your career?

>> i'm actually not going to go into -- into cover and operational details for the same reason i said earlier which is just that -- anything around those details have to go through review. so i'll leave it to the book but -- >> for a moment that use did -- wondered that a business like that might actually produce some revenues. so when you wrap up an operation like that who gets to keep the money? [laughter] >> let me just say if that were to be the case that certainly wouldn't be officer involved. [laughter] j but -- that is one that is kind of granular in operational level that i don't know. i can a go into -- but i will say one of the real challenges in this shift from the kind of traditional warfare

of the earlier part of last century to the asymmetrical sites that have, you know, morphed into terror group and nonstate actors, challenging states is that it has necessary to be really creative about how to be in the places union to be in order to do work that needs to get done. you know "argo" is a great example out there for people who have seen it. around the creation of a similar -- of a, you know, film organization, film company to go in sensibly to locations scout in iran. and was pretty well produced -- but in those cases, there definitely wouldn't be any profit drawn by ben affleck character put it that way. [laughter]

>> another one. >> yes. presentation appreciated very much and a i really do like traits that you see as people most valuable in carrying on this kind of work. a quick question for you just a reflection -- seeing the way things have gone since you've left the agency and where we are in the world today, i'm sure you must run in your own mind how we would get to a place where we would deal better with the kinds of issues that we're confronted with. do you have any kind of prescription or directioning to go other than type of people that you would like to see get involvedded in it. are there some things that -- that we could do more universally as human beings to foster such an environment? >> absolutely. i think at the state level and individual level, i mean, at the state level i think one of the things that is most important is

looking at instability and tourism and conflict, and investing in the infrastructure and support that is necessary. and much more efficient and much cheaper in terms of live and treasure. early on before the conditions for conflict reach the fever pitch that requires a military response. and you know, those are things we talked a little bit about the academic work that i did as a young person looking at predicting terrorism and that was, you know, the quite clumsy graduate school workso of a kid. one of the things that came up time and again in the data as being heavily correlated was the percentage beneath livable wage that a border guard gets paid therefore potential for graph and corruption and given environment that there are many such data points that we know

are correlated with instability and are --th are not easy to fix. but significantly cheaper in -- in both live and cash. so i think studying those is very important. doubling down on -- on our investment and soft power goafs in general i think is really important. china initiative is -- very important to note just about to come up to a trillion dollars and million chinese people on ground in two-thirds the world countries to invest in the building of infrastructure. not as charity but as a shrewd geopolitical move, and when we take our resources and commit them in military ventures, but one of our geopolitical rivals is doubling down on soft power

in that way, i really worry. i worry for the -- for the continued moral leadership of our country because you know a flag on a brand new train gives the very different feeling locally than a flag on rubble even it was a legitimate tart. so i would like to see us do mrp of that. and then in terms of responsibility and individuality at home i really think that -- that the division that i used to see played out on the international stage are starting to crack our own house from inside. and that our, that our disagreements are important part of our democracy but our -- inability to have them respectfully or to listen to one another, i think is getting it a point where it, it's undermining

our -- our own internal stability. i think we, you know, every school kid learns that cannot stand i think adversaries learned it too and it is on us to -- to learn how to disagree with one another without exasperating the crack in our democracy that are adversaries like to see there. [applause]e] we have another one. i have other questions if you don't -- nobody coming to the microphone. do you have one? okay. we'll keep waiting for people to come up but in mean time i'm curious to hear about your work after you left the cia sounds like you were able toll terrify your purpose which was showing people how to bring their guards down, and can you talk about some of the projects you've been working -- >> yeah you know it is interesting realization for me especially after i had my daughter that so many of the

tools that human intelligence officers are given as part of train andum in field are around learning to create a relationship or commonality with those we must fear those who must wish us ill and that, in fact, those same tools are applicable outside of geopolitics in all kinds ofs ebb pebt of our community, and you know i work to share them with young people but self different communities with the -- prisoners who aring looking to makes. immense or meet their victims or the survivors of their crime. with gang member interested in dropping their gang affiliation before i had my nine month old but before my ninth old if i was going back and forth to fair mount and working why young

people in the camp there that have been affected by secretary violence and giving them these tools because they really are at an age that can reject the words of their parents. you know i think this is an exciting generation because unlike every previous generation that has had to organize itself vertically by geography, this is really the first one where the internet has been son involvedn their life right from the get-go that teenagers young adults now are the first generation that can organize themselves stoppablely by age globally seen that with climate movement and various others and see more of it so to arm young people with the ability to communicate with one other in the moment where they're so disproportionally affected by conflict of what otthey've started and not anothr link in the chain there's a different way to do it. i think that's a -- a really rewarding and exciting

path. >> uh-huh. >> yeah you can come up to the mic. >>ing you can shout. okay. [laughter] you know, yes. i think as hard as it is for parent tosser see their little ones you know anywhere other than kind ofre a safe room we molds what we hope our kids will be in the world and i think it's so important to empower young people especially young woman to roll up up their sleeves and engage. and you know, be the version of this country that they want to be in the world. be thing version of their community that they want to see in the world. i think often it's the people who are least likely to find

personal happiness in government service and in intelligence service that are ones that we must need doing to. the people who aren't necessarily there because they'll enjoy it or it is cool or powerful. but because they are feeling the really heavy weight and responsibility and moral complexity and loneliness that comes with the work, and even though thatt isn't necessarily a prescription for happiness in your 0u and i would -- i would wish happiness to my little ones. it is certainly a prescription for purpose and meaning and service, and we can hope that life is long enough to be able to do that and then -- step back and enjoy time with family and a different service and into community. >> right there -- >> absolutely. the question was do i see peace

making as a channel? i mean, climate change is a channel to peace making. climate change is an enormous challenge to stability and peace making around the world. the pentagon's actually added to its list of the security, concerns i think over a decade ago now. we are seeing enormous migrant crisis that is driven, obviously, by conflict but increasingly by climate change. the competition for resource that has driven human conflict is only escalating as a viable land and many parts of the world is decreasing we saw links to now to brutal nor so many years and i think that it's important to consider it even though it's

a slow moving or slow moving long-term threat one of the great challenges of the human mind and certainly of democracy especially with term limits is the tendency to have a part a time taking long-term over the short-term and climate change is one of those issues where even though every policymaker understands the security ramifications. they can sometimes feel like they will land for a different president am. different policymaker down the road. but it's really important that as a country we prioritize that let our policymakers know that we support them prioritizing it even if it will take some time to pay off. >> given the kind of grizzly granular description we heard this morning about the body kill -- do you think there were people in the cia and other security

agencies who were alarmed by te level of detail that was made public or was there just missed? [laughter] >> it certainly unusual to have that much granular detail disclosed -- as i said earlier or change a lot of operational detail in my writing but to extent that it was agreed or cleared with the intelligence community first, i -- there was some method to that madness i think. i think objective was to attempt to prevent supporters of that ideology painting the final moment of heroic -- you know look, incredibly somber thing across the board. it's -- no call for celebration is this is one that marks the end of one of leadership under p which thousands of families lost people to terror

attack as and displacement because of the caliphate itself to the actual recruitment of their sons and daughters. by the ideology -- so it certainly not a moment for celebration. but i think the objective there was probably to remind people to whatever extent that in these final moments, about that character of this person was reiterated by the fact that not only did he had take his life but he took these three innocent lives with him. as t was his habit over so manyf the last five years. so i think, i think it's an incredibly somber day for everybody who is followed this -- and i would have liked to see himm taken alive and just stand trial for what he went through. but what he put so many through.

but the suicide i guess made that impossible. >> that's all we have time for today thank you so much amaryllis thank you too the book festival. thank you to the book festival to c-span2 booktv an just as remindinger she'll be down at the signing books in authors pen. thanks everybody. [inaudible conversations] >> some of the comurpt best selling according to powell book topping list is death and life of the great lakes milwaukee journal reporter look at the dangerous facing america largest lakes. that's followed by pod save america co-host and former obama administration official, dan

pfeiffer advice for untrumping america and sweet grass suggest to work with rather than shape the land we live on. then michelle alexander exam the history of mass ins cars ration, in the new jim crow, and wrapping up our look at some of the best selling nonfiction books according to powell books is jenny o'dell arguments that we need to resist prioritizing productivity and technology in her book, how to do nothing. some of these authors appeared onbook about tv and you can watch them online at booktving.org. author public defender recently discussed his new book usual cruelty about about challenges that majorrallize people face in today criminal justice system here he shares his thought on the purpose of the criminal justice system in america. >> as never ever heard phrase that criminal justice system is broken? yep. it is coif a popular thing to

say now. one thing i've realized as we've gone around country doing this work is your theory for what's wrong with criminal punishment system inform strategy and tactics to use to fix it. if you think that the criminal justice system is trying to create a society where all a human beings can flourish and everyone is equal, then yes it is quite broken. but if you think that its purpose is something different to control and cage and surveil, and preserve certain hierarchies of power and distribution of wealth in our society it is actually functioning quite well. if you see in that perspective, it is a increditteddably efficient beurre recognize city that manages to take 1 million people every single year from their school and churches and homes and families and jobs and houses -- and put them into this -- entire system of melds after a i come down after 11 year of being a lawyer this system is functioning quite well and stated purpose is purpose that

it is telling us eve day are not its actual function in our society. and if you think that -- you're going to have a different philosophy for kinds of interventions we need to make if you think that people that are running punishment are in good faith trying to make us all have flourishing live and live better you might think the is to give them more information and data show them that actually we've spent trillions of dollars on this, we caged tens of millions of people and yet let's take the war on drugs as example they talk a little bit in the book. drug usage rates are higher than they were before. we have captured electronic communication and ended privacy as we know it and caged people and ruin their families and separated hundreds of thousands of children from their families and every american sate and yeting nothing to show forth. to watch rest of this program, visit our website, booktv.org and search for alec or the title of his book, usual cruelty, using box at the top of the page.

booktv is television for serious readers all weekend, every weekend, join us again next saturday beginning at 8 a.m. eastern for the best in nonfiction books. ... his baster in washington, d.c. and he's our guest this week on "the communicators." mr. purdy, what do you do for huawei as chief security officer? >> guest: my primary role is internal although i been doing more extra things the last six to 12 months. my responsibilities have to do with sharing a committee of the key parts of the company and the united states