with the part of american students. that dna and the metaphor that they use to see that. a lesson that would not only be false but also pernicious. >> to watch the rest of the program this at the website. and search for wilford maclean. for the title of his book leads a pope using the box at the top of the page. good evening thank you for coming. i am a visiting fellow at here here at the american institute. we have a great discussion tonight we have brought here chris are naughty the author of dignity which came out earlier this year it is an

excellent book. i read it, i love it. i say beautiful because it is also a photo book as well. it really reveals america. a phd in physics. and then they used the phd. to go into finance. and when he have the job in finance he started going for walks during the day has walks got longer and longer. if you know new york geography is not close. and at one point he was exposed to the back row of america. this is drug addicts. he needed to figure out what was going on across the country.

from bakersfield california. chris traveled the country talking to people and again he wasn't doing the same sort of going around the country trip that a lot of people do. it was the drug addicts. the formerly homeless. the veterans the people who hated the immigrants and all of that. recently if you followed twitter. you notice that he has visited the most deplorable group of all. jesus visited the prostitutes for the tax collectors. i do recommend this book i that i want to start by what he me hit me most in your discussion here was introspection.

all of the scholars had advanced degrees. definitely the most educated region in the country. i wanted to start with i'm a catholic the homilies i like best are the ones that are most directed at the audience. you talk about the denigration by the front row with forms of non- credentialed meetings people finding meaning outside of degrees and jobs. in other things. can you talk to us about what you found around the country in that regard. >> thank you all for coming me. tim also wrote a book by the way. and you should read that. to the degree my book is political or at all

sociological. i divide the world into the front row and the back row. a lot of people i took pictures of. people who live in the bronx people who live in north side of milwaukee. it is not defined by geography. it is not defined by race. it's people who don't go to college or if they go to college they go to state schools or community college. the contrast of that is my prior life. at the phd in physics. that is what i call the front row which is people who look very different come from all over the world and come from all over the u.s. but share a common theme in their life has

been through the same institutions harvard, princeton, yale postgraduate degrees. internships. may be moving to new york city or dc. but only certain neighborhoods. the front row sets the rules. they run academies. we defined the world very narrowly in my mind. we only look at material things and in particular how much material things you get. if the resume is a credentialed economy. the things i found in my journeys into the things you

will see in the pictures are they find meaning in more traditional ways and things you don't need a resume for. the value of living and the same neighborhood. and the friendships that you formed in that neighborhood. i always laugh when i think about is already hitting me. just talking and talking. i would interview them and i remember telling someone wrapping up one interview they had been born 20 miles down the road. sixty or 78. you've lived in this town all your life. i was raised 20 miles down the road. an african-american neighborhood town.

who i said you are from carol wright. i'm here from a mile outside. those things manner. place matters to people. there is a lot of value in place and another thing that matters that doesn't necessarily require credentials is religion and faith. effectively you can walk things that give you meaning give you value that we can't quantify we can't measure but also i think we head over time just assumed we don't had value because we can't measure it. go from a to be. what is the cost of that.

the cost of that is immense. the way we think about the world is in this very narrow framework of only one thing mannering. and the thing that matters is a resume, education and how much money you make. it is immeasurable. that is harder to measure where you are from community bonds and that is actually something that i have seen admitted. one economist speaking here said that when she saw the book. she didn't really like it. because it was emphasizing things that were so vague and airy. they were looking for other ways to measure success or value or anything like that. i think it strikes a lot of people as arbitrary which is to say you will see articles.

the accent of where you were born. the accident of where you were born have determined the outcome. changing the color of the hair. it seems arbitrary and that clinging to it seems unwise. inefficient. and backwards. that's why we devalue them. we can't measure them. we are a quantitative bunch in the front row. that's the way that is the way we think about policy. when i think back to where i disagree with all of the conservatives is i don't like free trade. i think it is awful. and the way we think about free-trade is it is a

trade-off. it is a positive. we don't know what the losses are because we can't measure the losses. they look like a factory gone in milwaukee. in real life the losses are gone. it has kids bored born out of wedlock. it brings in drugs. but often more than that it takes away people's meaning. that was the center of the universe. have a downtown bar. the rising drug measure is the way to measure the fact that the effects of free trade have not been distributed evenly across the country but have been very uneven.

they have not experienced a slight decrease in the equilibrium wage but in fact when they shut down a lot more happened than just less money was flowing in there. the other thing was the induration to the situation was just move. it comes from the right by the way. not only is it pragmatic. they don't want to have the money to move. this is a great question. should these people move. you spent more time talking to people. and some of these towns you look around and it's hard to see it is hard to say if you cared about this person who is in a town where there are no

drugs. it's unlikely that they could raise them safely. what i would say to them i never told anybody not to move. who i am speaking to is not them. they also assume that moving has no cost. mexican american woman. who was staying in east la to go to the local community college. she was staying there to be her mom's translator. her mom is a first generation. like a lot of older immigrants. she does documents for her mother. why should we think that that is the right decision in my mind. why should we expect people to tear family bonds. to sell the assets at low prices and also, getting back

to the other forms of meanings meetings they had value to people. they don't require money to have those. those were things that were gifted at birth. it is extraordinarily elitist. if i'm here and people know me. part of it is 20 years i put in the work. i had written a book. that helps you get these credentials and get meaning. if you are still in your hometown you are known. for having been around for 20 years. maybe you helped somebody move. to talk about what is valued. one of the words that has become really negative.

we know what you mean by that. we know that politics are just which side you're on. after brexit i read this column. the fisherman out in sussex or whatever. for wanting to leave and just care about them. how much they were going to lose from brexit because they were all and his friends were all constantly traveling to the rest of europe. they were describing a try. as you described it, you talk about a group of shared experience. they had left us all to the same world view. our community was global. in other words the front row was a tribe that seems to think it was above tribalism.

i don't know if you agree with this. i think people need to belong to tribe. people need to be a valued member of something larger than themselves. whether that's a church group is a law firm that's a bowling league. people need to be a valued member. .. .. no one likes to see themselves as that. i don't have private, what are you talking about? i don't have an apartment in mayfair, that's not privileged. the title of my book is "dignity" because when you're taking these things away from people, when you're taking the

meaning, the place, when you make people feel like they are in a rat race to give money to be moved about, that is humiliating. the opposite accumulation is not. "dignity", the search for "dignity" can be positive. i see them in being a member in your community or raising a family but there's also whether or not people try to find "dignity" and i think part of that is going to the race thing which is you can find "dignity" or tribalism in racial identity. >> people when they are accumulated, search for a way to find "dignity" and there's a negative consequence of that.

i think some of it your sing politically these days is a tribe, trump rallies are a tribe. they are much a non- resume join the election thing and let's have fun. >> the argument i make in my book is that part of the trump phenomenon is people seeking of law. meaning and "dignity" are part of it. the framework i use, my argument in the suffering parts of america, what lacking is things that belong to. so i looked at a lot of these places that were suffering by saw the swimming pool that closed down, the church that closed down. the factory cart goes down and you still get food stamps are just about the or unemployment

and whatever the ads up from it doesn't come close to adding up to belonging to this workplace, the labor union that shut down. that alienation is what leads to, largely it people looking for other things to belong to. sometimes it's a street gang, sometimes it's basis, sometimes it's white nationalism, sometimes it wearing the red marker hat. these are people who don't belong to anything and the bitter irony for a lot of political left and there are a handful of liberal writers who have written this, somebody said i thought they were of a country and we'd all get along better. fewer people belong to a church, the most asked accessible institution for and more people are going to go along in one way or another and would cause more strife or not lead them toward

the good life. that's my argument. >> there are variations. i think both of our books talk about this and me less explicitly than you, the loss of a child is what cascade of everything. so in that sense, i'm very much on the left, the loss of all these other forms of meaning, the original sense the loss of the factory which provided building all those things you said that were once there to join, they started dissipating. i'm left comfortable talking about more kind of cultural issues only because it's not my

strong. it's also not where i come from. i think the right does, people on the right to have a thing where i certainly am comfortable saying, i say this as somebody who's an agnostic, the loss of faith has been huge. i think you went to salt lake city, the one that didn't make my book, the one place that was contrary to my thesis was utah. it doesn't have levels of despair that other places have. it has them but it doesn't have them because the church is there. it provides people role for money central role, both regulates and provides people a place. i say this as an agnostic, the solution for whatever we have going on in my mind is the fall

of the church has been a big loss in many case held capitalism in check. kind of this tug-of-war where you don't go too far screwing as a capitalist here, your neighbor because you've got those religious rules there. capitalism without religion is a disaster. >> jerry, the man who didn't know his abcs and he said he always felt dumb. as he put it, not the way a catholic would put it but he said then i got saved at 50 and it changed me. i never felt worthy before being saved. i was too dumb. now i understand i am worthy of the lord. that, to me, is the most noncredentialed form of meaning. literally, just for being human

become worthy and our modern culture and economy does not grant that. if you can't read, if you have the wrong views or whatever, it's hard but i want to move on, i will come back to make it uncomfortable and a little bit but i want to pick on the left. you and i have the same experience of surprisingly being a bit ignored by the left. specifically you use a phrase that people who are left behind in "dignity". there's an interview where there was a professor was arguing something similar to what i would argue and the interviewer interjects and says these people haven't been left behind, they have chosen not to keep up. which would have been a shocking thing for somebody on the left

to say before donald trump existed. i think something about the right working class, voting for donald trump has created a situation where a lot of people who otherwise would look at people who are suffering, especially if they lost free trade and have sympathy but now it led to people saying you are responsible for your own suffering. which by the way, is a lot of what you hear from the right about blocks. >> the way i frame it is i believe i'm from the left and one very important way which is if i see a group of people suffering social illness, i will never complain those qualities. similarly for most people, i will call somebody lazy or weak or dumb. i won't call them racist.

i think you have to look at the political structure, people on the right and understand the decisions. the left has always rightfully done that about urban neighborhoods when the right says welfare queens, all those things. get a job and addicted to having kids, violence, crime. the left always said look, we have to look at the situation we find them and. facing imminent obstacles because of racism. secondary everything, let's hold off here and stop calling people subhuman. i would think the left would do the same thing to working class white people. in some cases they do but in many cases they don't. when they look at the problems

or the choices made in white working class neighborhoods, there's a kind of just like no, these people have privilege. they can't possibly and part of, i started this project in 2011, any before any of this trump stuff happened. the only thing it became political was because of these towns during the election. i remember being in one west virginia, a trailer park. where a lot of things were going wrong. the families have done a lot of wrong in their life. i forgot that context but i basically said something about privilege. either by working class guys,

although yahoo out of privilege. compared to working class white kids and trailer park has privilege perhaps but he's not being told that by a sociology student from cornell. it's mind-boggling that this is where it goes back to i think there's a belief that on the left, a misunderstanding of how much privilege in education provides you. i think that's slightly uncomfortable because it makes people in my party feel a little bit like they have more

privilege than they want to admit. >> article further because when you say education, one of the big things i think that actually means is connection. in college, i read homer, i learned greek and lots of things that i loved but if i'm going to think and you met some of my older brothers, i have older brothers, one of them went to a much better college than i did and maybe he learned calculus or computer program but what helped him, he went to gail. he dropped out of philosophy school and went to gail. that education isn't just who you lead in college but learning the code. you talk about this a little bit. how to interact and speak. not to get a next tattoo, all these things that are exclusively talking but you absorb them through these educations and the education into what you learn in the classroom and what you are able

to pass, it's a code of behavior and connection and that is the nature of our privilege in accepting that i think is uncomfortable. we are the orchids. we set the rules. both culturally and economically. with that comes all these memberships and you don't really know you have. i think to me, the bigger issue is, there are two of them, one is you talk about the connecti connection, there is an african-american gentleman, had gone a full fellowship in the 70s. he came at me and use of derogatory phrase, a welfare queen. all those things. then 30 years later, looking back at this, you think about it? i wish someone had told me that

going to college wasn't about studying and thinking connections. he said he didn't use the words but he had a cultural capital and when he got there, he studied. he also had to make up that gap because there is a lecture education to prepare him for this. everybody else was forming friendships. he's like they all came out with that. to me, what is most frustrating about where in education divides people, it really allows, we use it now as a way to silence the work of the working class. they don't know the right language. some of this political correctness, a lot of this, this whole idea, this is where am very much contrary to a lot of

people, people on the right which is this whole expertise so you're not allowed to speak on something unless you have a resume that allows you to speak on and that comes from the right. from the left, you're not allowed to speak unless you go with proper huge words to use. they can't speak. it's very frustrating because a lot of the issues that are particularly profitable right now that are very language sensitive, race, gender, i have found that the working class has a lot to say about it and it's not nearly as what the white would assume. understanding of getting to this new place where the left wants to go but they don't have the language to express that.

the minute they put, the use the wrong word, they're going to be pounced on. called uneducated, dumb, called sexist. they just give up. for me, it's very frustrating because education provides you this language but it's very important, it's an entry to be incurred. part of my project was to actually let people speak on their own. i tried to put as much of the book and their dialogue as possible and let them speak without me jumping in and correcting them. >> i really enjoyed that part of the book. a part that i wish you drilled down on more, a contradiction between your book and alienated america which was, i wrote about how the real affliction was a

lack of things to belong to, a lack of places to connect. i don't mean connections as an connections of the powerbook but connections to your power and your belonging. a lot of your book was writing about how even in the rubble, people were finding these connections, whether it be a picture of bingo night and a crack house. you say even if you show up at the crack house, you belong, it's something to belong to. if i'm arguing these places a lack of places to belong to because i didn't look in the right places or are they trying to put things together? >> if you look at my book or if you know much about me, i'm a mcdonald's guy. i go to mcdonald's all the time.

when i started this project, for the same reasons a lot of people go to mcdonald's but i started hanging out with them and they started going to mcdonald's all the time. free wi-fi, you could shoot up in the bathrooms. most important, you could just hang out there. so i started hanging out there and i start seeing friendships form. there's also a community there. there are morning groups, people who grow therapy for their wedding. places like gary, indiana, it's basically this arm town center. you go in there and fact that. it's like the town square.

people are playing dominoes, people are romancing and reading more people are doing everything so it was funny when i started this because i would meet people at mcdonald's, i couldn't believe i was seeing so much community in mcdonald's, i was in denial and take a photo of them. i can't possibly have met you at mcdonald's. then i realized mcdonald's is a story. to me, i always say think about what mcdonald formed as. it's entirely forth transactional in-and-out and get a community center. the way, that's evidence of two things. one is people are that desperate for community.

if you give people franchise, they will find meaning and community so i don't see it differently from what you saw, i see, i think maybe we went to different places where there wasn't anything but mcdonald's. it was the last thing standing. going back to my title, that belonging, that desire or "dignity", mcdonald's to meet is evidence of that. >> part of my argument is that the lack, the big part of the suffering is a lack of trust of one's neighbors. if you go into a town in west virginia and they talk about the

outsiders, the immigrants are political class or china, destroying their talents but then i also think there's less social trust and a lot of these places. different places are going to be different and they are places where people leave their bikes on the front yard but guys protecting their street corners with guns, you're talking about guys getting shot. they're not getting shot by outsiders by washington lobbyist coming in, the problem isn't the police dog, the main threat to their life isn't the police dog anymore, it's going to beat the fact that the social fabric has broken down so much that what they are engaging in for commerce and for sense of

meaning is going to be warfare and drugs. >> i think i have a different view on this which is, i spent a lot of times in drug houses. and drug dealers. i saw a lot of bad things go down. to me, it's simply fair legal system. i'm going to lawyer up and sue you and it's going to be very pleasant and they don't have that option. so that their legal system. they can't trust the cops because the cops can't be trusted. there also working in the economy because the illegal

economy because it's on available to them. i spent a lot of time around drug dealers must meaning drugs and if i had grown up in one of those neighborhoods, i would be a drug dealer. it's entrepreneur. it's the option you have so you go with the option you have. i'm not encouraging people to go get drugs on the corner, i'm just saying i refrain as looking at it as a functional system that's working because the system, the outside system is functional for them and they will create their own functional system. what i find fascinating is the opposite. even in the most destitute situations, people will form rules and order.

you will be in a drug place in there's rules. they are unwritten but they are there. i find it fascinating that people self organized. >> when people are deprived, we are talking about earlier sometimes there will be drugs and sometimes it will be something that we might think is better for them but i have two more things. >> i think there's also something like owning the stigma. if you get accused of being a dirty drug dealer and how all of these negatives, your psyche up. you call me this all the time, i might as well be it. that's what addicts do, they owned the addiction. you call me a dirty addict, it's exaggerating their addiction.

you start owning the stigma. >> a couple of more things and then we will go to questions. something close to grace, he talked about you sort of allowed the one privilege that african-americans have, you are allowed to and it's fine to have ethnic identity, racial identity and find meaning in that. why identity comes from a loss of ethnic identity. they didn't walk around thinking of themselves as white because we were irish-american. today we had more in common with italian kids and we did with black kids or grandkids, it's sort of laughable. what did we have in common with them? if you look at places where people are more likely in the census to say i am american, not that i'm african-american or native american, but what's your

ethnicity? for example, are you dutch, african-american? they say no, i'm just american. mostly white people were irish and that i think is where you are going to find a high correlation with pat with opioids, high trump supporting in the primaries. but a lack of ethnicity and lack of religion in people then seeking other forms of identity which might be whiteness. >> i don't think i'm a good person to answer that question. but i would say how i saw it flipped on its head in an ugly way was why are blacks allowed to be proud of their grace and

i'm not? people actually said that to me. talking about privilege structures. [laughter] talk about cultural capital and majorities and minorities or simply just say it's the right thing to do. >> my answer would be if you identified as polish, nobody would hold that against you. we still have difficulties because people would say they are the days with irish kids beat up the polish kids but i do think the whiteness is replacing other identities. >> french canadian americans, they were the most likely to be trump voters.

what i will say is i go back to my nontraditional forms of faith place in race. then there's materialism resumes. you have to choose one of the four. one is going to be chosen by people because people of nothing are going to choose something. it's like the rug in the room, you try to push one down, i personally think racial identity is the most dangerous one for the people to start seeking a meaning for all the obvious reasons. my warning has always been to the left into the if you stop and keep the value in place and keep popping up the ante, making this rat race of building resumes and universities, you're going to get a backlash.

what frustrates me sometimes his racism is malleable. i don't know if you know louis in maine that is 3000 people, lost its mills to mexico. as 99% white. then smiling americans came. they replaced their family and 98 and some other somalian americans. so i spent some time there. i was talking to the professor of anthropology who said about racism, she said racism, she studies this issue. one of the things you will see is when someone visually is different, you seem to jump the

line. that's the upswing in racism by the majority. that night, lewis has this members only club. i will organize around them. ... the membership i did join was 1 dollar. and for those who think it was there to keep african-americans out. there were members. in the snowshoe club. i'm talking to this guy next to me who has have a rough life. in his mind he was a vietnam white -- that. he was in an out of section

eight housing. he is there drinking and stealing my cigarettes. he goes off on the tirade. it was really nasty. the bartender actually stops them. the interesting thing was this guy and then when we spoke he started literally complaining about somalis. his line was double and he literally saw these people in his mind who were newcomers and he did believe that they deserve to be there. now making his weight for free food distribution three times as long.

this is why i don't approve of what he said. he might have may have gotten there this way. if we want that not to happen we need to provide someone like him opportunities that are not easy scapegoats. we had time for a few questions. please wait for the mic it will be the microphone will be brought to you in quick identify yourself with your name. >> i am francisco from louisiana. two quick things. firstly. what do you see your endgame care. i have heard you describe that you are not a journalist

because you don't check you listen. what is your end goal here. is it just awareness i'm just curious at where where your mind is at. we are his people's anger directed at. when you ask them and interview them. is anger directed towards the local senator or the state senator town council. is it broad national issues. >> my wife would like to answer that one as well. honestly the project was haphazardly done it was not intended as any real goal. at some point it got promoted by political anger. people who are disparaged in the press as being worthless

hookers or what have you and people who are actually wonderful people. part of the project was to let them tell their stories as i saw them. worthy as a bond trader. the anger is diffused. sometimes it is anger at whoever put the pothole in front of your yard that is not going to be fixed. sometimes it is anger at immigrants. there is a tendency to want to punch the more frustrated you are the more you want to punch. i think the anger at the elites it is just broad sense of feeling like you are being patronized all the time.

you are not worthy. you are being laughed at. there is a real sense where they know and they are convinced of this that people make fun of them. the washington post. they just don't get them. and they would rather not spend time with them. sometimes they don't know where to punch and it is hard to know who to punch and when you are that removed from the political process. it's hard to know who to punch. >> let me ask you a quick question. i was surprised at how easy it was to get people to talk to me about their lives. i'm a political reporter in

from washington dc. i should share with them and tell them where i am coming from. i was always a little reluctant. then i would just ask them what it is like around here. the thing i tell younger people that want to do what i do is that you have to get them to stop talking. for the fourth time about the wrongs that caused the truck to flip. people want to talk. >> even if they distrust a guy from brooklyn. where i think the narrative the story and then general dominant story out there is wrong is the idea that the poor hate the rich. heat the rich. they don't hate the rich.

they are frustrated that they are not there. they view it as aspirational. in particular trumps form of wealth is really understandable. i don't like how trump made his money. the guy puts buildings in the air and for a lot of people out there they understand that. that is what money is. a lot of people i do this silly thing where i get the financial times and it comes as something called how to spend it. i would be in these drug dance and i would forget that my how to spend it was in the car.

and there would be people shooting up over how to spend it. i eventually said i would see them flipping through it. i would say what do you think about this. and i would have them looking at it and talking about it. it's not what you see on left wing twitter. there is a 57 thousand dollars rolex watch. i think people get wrong the idea that people don't hate it. it's aspirational. i wish i could do that. another question. let's go over here. from a finance background there seems to be a gap in your awareness of what is happening and find nance. it is relocating out of new

york. you are in this situation you are just more educated and in a different bracket. there seems to be a lag. for example people who are working in the coal industry in west virginia they have long-term jobs. you have a better markets. you are doing 20 years. and you're out. you can't just a lawyer up like you are saying and they face the same things. were you in the mid- office or the back office. it is a very different industry and they treat that back the back office like crap.

it's not a nice industry. i'm a journalist is a peerless perilous industry to be in. i think the basic and main privilege is connection and belonging. if i got laid off there are people with money with other things who i could turn to and at least try to land on my feet. that is a lot harder when everybody you know is in that town and they all lost a job. >> my experience was at the very top it's a very elite group in a very nasty group. >> over on the side. upfront here.

what most of surprised you about your interactions with the people that you talked with in your experience what would you say most surprised about them. honestly. don't take this as a lesson. i'm a white guy. i spent most of my time in african-american neighborhoods but no one ever tried to rob me or take anything from me. and i was walking around with a 5,000-dollar camera. a little scruffier than this and drug houses at two in the morning. i walked into abandoned buildings at three in the morning. because someone said i should go there. nothing bad happened. i remember once in again it's

very different for females. in terms of the safety issue and the trust there is this woman by the name of millie who i met on the street at two in the morning. and mac to your think where people tell you and i asked her story. i wrote it down. three years later she passed away. i located her body if you die in new york without without papers you're putting into something called hart island. some of the worst things in the world. i think it's 1 million people are buried there. it has been the poppers island since 1865.

they put you in a trench and bury you. over six months i located the 6h death in the bronx. and through this whole process of getting her exhumed and properly buried i learned a lot about her past. i'm not a journalist. i don't dig into people's past unless it is to get the paperwork done. it was really fascinating to me. everything she told me was a complete stranger about her life it was right. her whole story she have told me she did not lie she did not exaggerate. and again the honesty of just telling a stranger and it wasn't a good life. it wasn't things to be proud of.

at the individual level people are very decent. at the aggregate get not very much. the u.s. paradox of the north. in individually not. and it is individually friendly. another question right there. my name is kelly. are you still traveling to interview people and my second question as have you ever found the one from a community who found a way out and follow them in their life. i'm really curious what they said about not having the right language to fit in with the front row. thanks. i know people in the past life

who have done that. who had played the long irons and succeeded. but on the streets after three years of my projects in the bronx i ended up saying was that nobody got out. there were no happy ending. i just got text messages from her so maybe not. beauty is still doing whatever beauty does. they are still living in a van somewhere. at the very lowest of the low i did not find any success stories. i was against the very lowest of the low. i think one of the things that is uncomfortable to me to think about and why do some

people succeed and some people don't. and you meet them there is a young girl i met in a church here. pretty sure she will make it out. i hope she well. you just can tell at seven or eight she shoes going to leap every hurdle and she was in it do what she needed to do to get out. when i have met people like that on wall street who came from nothing and succeeded they themselves can't really say i knew at four i wanted to do blank. to the end question.

if i'm still doing it. i had been taking a break from the u.s. i haven't doing this but in foreign countries but without a camera. to see intellectually. the talk about getting out it reminds me of a conversation i have. and he said he has this horrible almost self-contradiction of wanting the people who are showing up in his community are going to be the most engaged. they are most likely to go out and actively love their neighbor and care about their place and to some extent. they had print -- planted the roots there. he doesn't want the brightest girl to get out. he wants her to then the leader in the community but if he is caring about them individually he doesn't want her to get out.

and isn't that this horrible paradox that we are in. in 1960 that girl was more likely to stay there and be the principal principle of the public school. if there cannot do anything worth the talent and energy is going to be getting out. >> when people do ask me this advice when i'm out talking to people i never tell them i always tell people if they want to leave, leave. it's not my place to tell someone to not do what i did. but what i do say is that don't get into debt. do it on the cheap. do pell grants. do scholarships.

people are and i want to leave and you can't stop them. again, we are selling copies of the book outside. chris will be signing them as i want to thank you very much for doing this work. it changes the way i see things. i am a christian in and a catholic. our duty is to love our neighbors and care for the least of these. the key. thank you chris for joining us. [applause]. [inaudible conversations] they cover book fairs and festivals around the country.

as well as the tucson festival of books from the university of arizona next month and then look for us at the new orleans book festival hosted by tulane university. in the virginia festival of the book in charlottesville. to watch the previous festival coverage click the book fair tab on our website. >> tomorrow is super bowl. we will show you a history program from our archives. john miller details the involvement in the reinvention in football. it saved the sport from being banned. see mac if you are wondering what kind of knucklehead puts out a book about football