generation of americans. >> to watch the rest of this program, visit the website, booktv.org and click on the in depth tab at the top of the page. >> .. >> let me just say at the onset that i have no idea what directions the conversation this evening is going to take because we have for you not one, but two very irreverence unobservant, witty, candid personalities who have, at times ranged widely in their penetrating and passion critiques of events and people and could take us who knows where in the next hour. but i expect at least some of

the talk will have to do with the future of american democracy and how to save it from villains, vandals, and ourselves, because that at least is the subtitle of the bob carr are fields new book, "american manifesto". he is going to be speaking with the new york times who also has a keen interest professionally and otherwise in what is happening in our democracy. bob has had a diverse journalistic career that has now spanned more than four decades. he has been a reporter, a columnist for usa today and advertising, a contributor to the washington post magazine and he has written for a number of publications. he has made his mark in the world of casting, both broadcasting and podcasting. for a dozen years he was a commentator correspondent for

npr all things considered, specializing in corking americana. he cohosted a popular podcast called, lexicon valley and then ditch that to create audible podcast series, the genius dialogue. in which she interviewed macarthur grant winners and as a new york observer put it, put his own sense of wit, charm, and candor to the proceedings. most consistently since 2001 he has cohosted the weekly award-winning public radio program on the media which covers journalism, technology and first amendment issues. for the sake of brevity i will skip over bob's involvement with abc, cbs, nbc and pbs. but i will say that along the way he has published a collection of some trend short essays and books on advertising, marketing and the media. plus a novel. all in all, a pretty eclectic

resume. in fact, his online biography give begins with this sentence, bob garfield is not exactly a media horror but he is extremely promiscuous. and his new work, "american manifesto", bob examines the dangerous anime to his age and of our nation into ever smaller interest groups, each with its own desires and grievances, coupled with the disintegration of much of our mass media. but, he follows this analysis of our national unraveling with six recommended natural steps to counter the divisiveness and pull our fractured country back together. i marks official title is chief national correspondent for the new york times magazine pray about what mark is especially known for our his incisive and often entertaining profiles of political and media figures. jeffrey goldberg of the atlantic once famously called mark the most important journalist in washington for his ability to make his profile subjects look

like rock stars on one hand and to make others look like complete idiots. mark has been a journalist for 30 years and also has written several books including the best-selling, this town. a syrian examination of washington's local class in his most recent, the big game about the most powerful people in the national football league. ladies and gentlemen, please join me in welcoming bob garfield.

>> hello everyone. thank you for being here. i guess i'll start. i am the guy interviewing you. hello, everybody. thank you for being here. it is a delight to see you all here. i say that respectively. i have no idea how this is going to go. >> bob has written a book. he has actually written a manifesto. it is called, "american manifesto" and if anyone was looking for a good manifesto to become of this is your thing. now, i want to actually start with something because come as a kind of thing that people that is usually a telltale sign that the guy asking the questions did not read the book but i did read

the book. the telltale sign is that you go for a quote on the back and you ask about that. i actually think it is kind of interesting. i'm going to read it. then the vast wasteland of homogenized, regurgitated media there is a loan heroic taco truck. bob garfield is that taco truck. nourishing, defined, also very smart and very brave. american manifesto is his spicy masterpiece. alec baldwin. he actually read this? how did you get him to read your book? >> if only my mother were alive. to hear me being compared to a food truck by a movie star. >> in all seriousness it's a great book. i'm excited to talk about it and, it is not the kind of book i usually like. i sort of usually like something

that is not a manifesto. i have never read a manifesto before. i guess i may have read the communist manifesto in college or something, did you have a favorite manifesto that you modeled this after? >> no. my immediate diet was pretty much manifesto free. myself, until i wrote this. >> what made you decide to do this? >> i did not decide to do this. what i decided to do was say but that spun off a stage show eidetic up of years ago called ruggedly jewish which was an exploration of my jewish identity, such that it is and try to look at it in the context of where we are as a society today and they laughed, they cry, i thought it would be a better book than it was a stage show, but i just cannot pull it off.

it did not work on the page the same way it did on the stage. so, they got me to thinking. i said bob is there another way to approach this that is a little less theatrical? maybe i could sell it to a publisher and find an audience willing to pay for it. after some fits and starts we came up with this. >> it worked. i have to say we are trying to get people excited about the book and it worked fabulously. while it's great about it is, as i read i was not sure where there is going be a call to action towards the end. any hope of basically to cling to. and i guess backing up, this sounds very basic, but how do you write something like this? you have written a lot of nonfiction, you have written i don't know if you dabbled into fiction or anything but is there a strategy of actually sitting

down and writing what is essentially 150 page essay or something with a very sharp opinion in a very fast-changing time? so mickey was just me being me. >> how does that happen? >> you know, it has to do with me having a lot of thoughts on a lot of subjects. also be a smartass and breathing every breath thinking of the next punchline when trying to use the skills that i have to write a serious book without seeming like such a wise acre that it would is not taken seriously. so the process of writing the book was a balance of trying to make some serious observations about society and the politics and about our future, to be entertaining along the way not be ponderous.

>> did you find, how much do you feel was triggered by donald trump and all that he has represented over the last few years in our politics and culture and media world? >> i'm sorry, i'm not placing the name. >> bear. mike how about mike pence? >> this book would not have been written but for donald trump in this political moment. so, a lot. but it's not about donald trump and it's not about the come back of donald trump, it's about how american society in american politics have gotten to the stage and i think i'm going to dismantle with a full pipit because i don't have to set up three teleprompters and of disintegrating discs in my back. so, i apologize, this is the last you'll see of me. so, the question is, how do we

get to this.in society, not that we're just so polarized but were truth itself has been turned on its ear. and where was manno fragmented into countless tribes also known as filter bubbles that the possibility of it penetrating them with facts and evidence and empirical data, documentation, history, it's a fools errand. you just cannot permeate those filler bubbles on the right with reality. and, what were, what were the converging factors that created the situation and that's what the book presumes to do, to explain what it is with american society going back 243 years and the internet and the digital

revolution, how did they converge to create the situation we are in right now. by analyzing those two general spheres, i can give the illusion that actually it was, because of the american fixation on identity that goes back to the preamble to the constitution, and because of the american minutes of whether it's the great gatsby or, my gosh, who wrote ragged dick? horatio -- i am a senior american. there are some deficits is all i'm going to say. so, the notion of self-improvement is so ingrained that as children, we are told anyone can be president which is fine, it's nice to be

aspirational, but it turns out, we are told by our parents about our commencement speakers and thomas jefferson we are guaranteed the pursuit of happiness. the thing is, we are thereupon expected to find it. we are expected to fix that. and if we don't do that, if we don't meet these outside expectations that every american should hold are we a great disappointment to everybody. and, one of the premises so american manifesto is that that great disappointment materializing right now in trump is him and if you asked -- back around the 1840s or something, where does this all lead, he would've said a man with an orange face doing terrible things to the law.

>> how is the american fixation of identity to blame to some degree or degree for trump -- the phenomenon of donald trump having the supportive 40 or 50% of the country victimhood or whatever he's been called a lot of those things and i think a lot of people would agree with you, how much of that was inevitable around the american fixation on identity? >> i'm glad you asked that i shall not talk about evolutionary biology. i have already said that i believe there was a peculiar american fixation with identity. i came to be a bit more detail about that in a moment. but, it's actually not just a human impulse and a biological impulse and all animal species,

the why does a peacock show off his feathers? so peacock can impress a peahen. so why do certain other species have characteristics that call attention to it which enable it perhaps to make but also to make it a better target for predators. it was entitled early to the animal species and also plants. plants themselves and their root systems signal to insects and other species what they are and what's going on it has to do with self protection and provocation. plants, to nature things. all living things are impaled to announce themselves. so, when you know it's true in

root systems of plants it's true with europeans and latin americans to. and, south asians and east asian sands whatever. it is a human compulsion to try to let the world know who we are. but, nowhere is it more pronounced than it is here and partly because of the reasons i was discussing that we are told to make something of ourselves which is very shortly to invent ourselves. and just think of the time we are small how your clothing decisions and how your taste in music and art and everything else were not just what they were, but they were an announcement to the rest of the world about what you were. it's one thing to be a steelers fan, it's another to announce to the world that year being essential to your being.

because you have it on your closing on your bumper, hello again, i live. it is so central to be but you clothe yourself in it. and vanity for crying out loud. if you go to belgium you will not find a license plate that says, i love tofu. you just won't. and so, as a society. >> literally true. not literally true but. >> they have vanity numbers. you know what, i mean. three, seven, four, eight, eight, nine. >> those are the belgium language. so it's no surprise then that our politics especially in a country that has such a rich history of oppression would also find itself carved up into first

tens and thousands and now hundreds, it seems infinite number of nano fragmented identity groups. each with its own grievance. and this is happening mostly not on the right, but on the left. and, i'm just getting went for a few more seconds and then i'll let you pretend to be involved again. >> i have swivel power i can face these people to make his compensation was one cup of coffee which he does not get to drink and he is entering this, i think he deserves a round of applause. >> can i leave now? >> a best-selling new york times author on this time. >> it was?

>> seriously, how does identity pollute itself into victimhood? grievance come into the kinds of things that you're seeing is rampant as you see identity politics, identity sports, what have you? >> the first reason is, first and foremost is that because they should be aggrieved. the grievances are about real things, we are a society that has systematically oppressed all sorts of others. all sorts of marginal groups. all sorts of nonpower groups. i am delighted to say that from world war ii on, it was just an enormous amount of success in this country just leading the liberal democracy of the world that addressing these grievances

and writing historical wrongs. in using legislation to not fully but at least partially fix what was broken in civil rights and the miranda decision doubt people were deprived of rights when accused of a crime. we largely dealt with the church state problem from the first amendment by taking prayer out of the schools. and, all of these address certain kind of injustices that existed for the history of our nation and more, and more, most recently lgbt entrance rates in particular, change in american law that i never thought i would see in my lifetime.

so, good for identity politics. good for the progress we have made as a culture but two things, one that created a backslash. and all these people this disappointed seeming resentful folks who never did achieve the american dream as it was explained to them it was their responsibility to achieve. all of the people who are seen what they thought was their country being divvied up among ground people and to other outsiders and others who they perceive is taking what was rightfully theirs and someone the way slapping it in the face about their own values and the nature of the country, that creates a backslash. they have fonts and expression for that rage and that resentment through the very identity politics that they had

been watching the left involved in for all of these decades. on this is what the outright is. this is what trump is them is about. this is what white nationalism in nationalism come from. out of the woodwork and all of a sudden suits up and why every night on fox news channel that's how these things happen and i believe in then technology, google and facebook in particular because that they are algorithmically set up to do this in the business model, they have discovered that feeding people who want to be angry the same stuff over, over, and over again generates more patriotism, more advertising and they get obscenely wealthy by serving kids all deserve a no spinach.

and, it is the convergence of these identity, this identity phenomenon with the revolution that i think is so -- >> this is going to sound like a curveball, but i think it's on.here. you are a media critic, media reporter. you're probably best known for being the host of on the median npr which is a great show. if you could come as a soldier for democracy here take three american men a silly american, three businesses, three properties of the table and eliminate them as a way of improving our lives, what would you choose? >> that's not a curveball. i would not take them off the table but i think facebook and google are toxic to society.

>> you would not eliminate them though? >> so you could eliminate three media companies right now if you want. >> the one i would eliminate is murdoch and fox news channel. because they are spreading not only at counter political viewpoint, but lies and disinformation and misinformation and propaganda day after day, night after night for years and years, in years. they have created for their audience a set of worldviews that are based on lies. and, you want to talk about your fake news, that is one-stop shopping. it is obviously corrosive. by the way, there have always been, first of all the whole

history of journalism in this country began for the first century and a half it was extremely partisan. that was the norm. but halfway through the last century there were certain professionalism that began to take over with highly concentrated media companies beginning to acquire everything. the fact is they got less and less partisan whenever the rochester chronicle was called there was really a spouse in a democratic appointment view. that is long gone. that kind of thing in the newspaper business no longer exists. except in the right-wing media that a exist completely what is the right wing biased and the rest of the news. it's not just that they bring right conservative perspective

to stories and ask that the bias liberal mainstream, mainstream media refused to ask. it is that they propound slides. they spread lies. they give oxygen to liars. it is that they carried the water for politicians, big lies. and, you can see what it has rods. by the time the internet came along there was a ready audience accustomed to getting the news they had wanted to hear to validate its worldview. dance, that is its toxic from my perspective it is a moral and, i think it's time to stop. i am not suggesting that the government intervene, never, ever. >> they don't have to, they have bob garfield. >> right. but -- i do believe the

marketplace they talk about should intervene. and come i think advertisers who are underwriting this kind of poison should be called to account. i saw a very well-thought-out and articulate christmas idea with jack who was with "politico". he said you really don't want brands to be the arbiter of what is legitimate journalism. and which that made me think a bit. but it occurred to me that advertisers have always been arbiters of what is appropriate content. they have always played that role. and so encourage media cells to be gatekeepers. so, more of that. >> don't you think that your

plane into their critique and that they would say, we are not being heard. they would say that i work for the new york times. the new york times, many fox viewers would say the new york times should be in the top three media entities that should be eliminated immediately. i don't agree with that, but isn't that just a symbiotic cycle of grievance that works in both directions that again, some people do better than others? >> that's true. it works like that. there is one difference. that is, to destroy the argument that the new york times and the rest of the media has some sort of ideological bias i'm more about on the second. you know, you have to present evidence. there is none.

however, if you redefine new book called, they want, you'll find -- it's a quiz, it's a challenge. i challenge conservatives who think that there is fake news going on in the mainstream media to present one example of it. and i said now let's turn to fox news channel and there is page after page after page of absolute outrage. they can say, the media news organizations are populated are generally politically progressive. that's one thing. that is true. the second thing is, a progressive values very much overlap with journalistic -- speaking truth to power, flicking the comfortable and comforting the afflicted. looking for corruption in

government. these are all things that are perceived as liberal but they are also according to the watchdog role of journalism as enshrined in the first amendment. so, yes, i will give you back, but the people who talk about when the president talked about newspapers making things up and making up quotes, there are protocols. that cannot happen and in the handful of times in the past 50 years when it has happened, it has been a cluster fail for everybody. you've worked at the washington post, janet cook, you work. >> you work at the new york times, look what happened to judith miller when she got caught being suckered by the white house into validating phony intelligence data. . . .

>> at what point do you throw your hands up and blame the

consumer, blamed the reader, blame the voter, not across the board, but if you are looking for a solution for the last third of the manifesto there is a solution in this. when do the people such as they are takeback for whatever this world has been taken away from us? >> thank you for the question. what is my book called? american manifesto presumes that for the next generation number of this is going to happen in the courts that that ship has sailed, the judiciary has sailed and doesn't look like it is going to change immediately so the legislation doesn't seem to

be an immediate answer unless i am not a democrat, but the democrats don't appear to be getting the super majority in the senate anytime soon, so don't look to the institutions to fix these problems. we have to look within ourselves and it's devoted to six-point where i demand, stop being complacent the screens don't do any help if you are in despair and feel outrage, there are things you can do.

on the question of identity and the cost to the body politics where there is factionalism among people who should become as the norms if you could influence whatever identity groups that you belong in to think of the common cause and is the slightest grievance, do th that. but they give you an example, the women's march after donald trump was elected and something like protesting his statements

and conduct and presumed prophecies against women it's not often people take to the street for fear this isn't france or hong kong, people generally don't leave netflix to go protest, but they did. it was magnificent. it was inspiring and gave you hope that the complacency than what happened, by the time the next march came along there were rivalries and where the black members of the march organization were not fast enough to renounce the insanely anti-semitic remarks of louis ferrick on to suit the jewish women in the movement, and long story short it got canceled in la the march got canceled

because according to reports, and i have no indication of this, but the african-american members of the theory were afraid that there would be too many white and jewish women in the march and the oppression would be expropriated by people of privilege. we have a chance to go into the streets and protest the insanity taking place in washington and this is compromised. there were children ages and more is being started about these attacks.

we have in time to go into the bill of indictment. why squander energy, fighting among yourselves when the enemy is about 4 miles from here. >> i wanted from questions of bt what's moving to one thing do you feel like this activism -- of course then th the groups of facebook or the algorithms that seem more and more of the content that does its job of pacing you off and making you want more and more and facebook and google through youtube with

the phenomena of our just turning it up to 11 and obstructing a. of facebook when contacted by the investigators representing the senate trying to get to the bottom of what happened by the justice department, they provide some data is none of the data from the data set that was quantified the amount of sharing that took place at the fake news because they did not want to compromise the proprietary data. the rest was hanging in the balance and aj didn't want to divulge too much.

then mark zuckerburg said we didn't do well. we promised to do better and next time it's the same and it's the same. i'd like to tell you a donald trump is the single most powerful and dangerous man in the world, but it's not true. mark zuckerburg is the most dangerous and powerful man in the world. >> for fox, facebook is in second. >> [inaudible] >> i believe you need to face very serious antitrust review, and it requires a whole new protocol for antitrust, but how does that happen? citizens start talking about it and start talking to their elected representatives about citizens and start writing, not

tweeting but expressing rage and despair to people to make decisions. as i said, i don't think institutions are going to have a lot of influence of writing this, but when they are spurred by large influences of citizensdoing their duty as citizens, being activists in a participatory democracy, amazing things can happen, just look at same-sex marriage. who thought they would see that in their lifetime and that it could be done. >> questions. we have mike. if there is a microphone and we have questions that looks like we have a line forming. >> i hurt you this morning and on the media.

i wonder abou about this kind of start on the left. i remember when the country came together after world war ii and every one seemed to have contributed to something a were actually 1968 when nixon started the strategy, that is what launched the problem. do you remember the commercial for the senator from south carolina against the black mayor from charlotte to that showed

you needed that job they gav buy gave it to a black even though you are better qualified, that is what started it, and what recent and, what caused the resentment and that destroyed unions and move their plans overseas and blamed it on illegal immigrants -- >> i just don't think right and left are the same. >> my point is it is impossible for the single event and a set of public but had reactions going back decades you could argue that this is a country that had slavery. >> it is built in.

>> there's always been something. the argument that i'm making in mind is when the society started systematically addressin addrese fees antheseinjustices that theh that began and racism. but i think the forces that are unleashed are the direct reaction to the perception of lost power that they can trace to the corrections to the ills in our society. now that happens all the time and if you do not believe me, i have three children that can testify, but i think it is for

the purpose of understanding the dynamics especially on the identity side i would say prayer in the schools and the civil rights act are a pretty good place to start. >> in the biased media about the political correctness it's been caricatured and represented, and here we are. >> you mentioned miranda. you have the right to remain silent. after co- >> thank you for the conversation. you did a lot talking about

identity and a friend of mine's mother lived in london at the very next day said jeff, yesterday was bush's war and today it is america's war and i would like to bring us up to the next election because i think a lot of the world, we came from europe. if we elect them the second time, to your point, one of the first things we can do is vote to make that a primary objective of everyone in this room. >> i wish you wouldn't call me robert. [laughter]

>> my mom used to do that when i was in trouble, also state troopers. [laughter] >> i am delighted to be here. >> i'm sorry, you have not read my book? anyone else? [laughter] as it relates to a lot of issues that you brought up in particular, i've been volunteering in prison for about 15 years, and i find a great sanity with the men that do this program to finish share their heart and people from the outside coming to also share their heart. they go into prison on friday and come out on sunday. so, now i've been working with the youth to keep them out of

prison in the mentoring capacity and schools and the like and i am feeling that there is a huge lack of passion for the. i feel like donald trump represents the academy of how many generations we can go without and worship and commendable blessing youth and their beauty before we get to this place of him and you see this diabolical. >> i think it is true that he is stuck to the oxygen out of the nation and he is the focus of [inaudible] but there is a movement called

restorative justice based on the premise that incarceration not only has never been the solution to dealing with violence and problems that are attached to poverty and education and so forth and is being embraced and even in trump land by more and more the political counties and so forth, and entirely turned the judge jury incarceration model on its head with a great deal of success and on the needs of the victim and circumstance and perpetrator and recidivism is way down. so, even if, you know, i get up in the morning every day in rage and despair. i am enraged before i brush my teeth.

but there are pockets of progress. if you get out of washington -- i know that is tried, but actually, government is obviously dysfunctional and it works pretty well run and the statehouses, then they can even be surrounded the country, and all people can get-together in salt problems even people who disagree find ways to solve common problems together, so it's not that every corner of the country is driven by polarization, but by and large it's only on the national scale in statehouse scale where it's so horrendous. so look up restorative justice. >> what you say staying in washington has anything to do that has made you feel hopeful

because onthat is one thing i ts that a lot of people who thought they were beyond this end of it all actually realized that a lot of it is precarious? >> in the midterm elections it was consequential of a lot of people who otherwise wouldn't raise their hand in office and wouldn't raise their hands to support a political candidate. so, that gave me some hope. but in the meantime, i've also seen democratic tools and mechanisms usurped towards nondemocratic goals. and i've watched the president's political base remain exactly the same through these three

years of unlawfulness and depravity. so, on that point, i am not hopeful. the third thing i see, mark, is a drop in trust, not only in government, but for all of the society's institutions, particularly the press. the public is getting up, and they are hoping to -- what i've seen, and not the internet or cable news polls, but i'm talking about significant polls by gallup and a the democracy project that show a very significant percentage of moment mealsmy onemeals, and it's overe prepared to give the rule is tried. >> because they are so disaffected by where democracy has gotten us into the 43 years.

>> in mac those are the stakes, i am not out of the prediction making business, and who knows, who knows. so hopeful, well? [laughter] >> alex with npr. you mentioned going within. what did you view when you have a relative or someone close to you [inaudible] [laughter] >> i am not quite as apt to cancel people as my children are. what are they, gen x,

millennial, my children if you get caught on the first day of your life doing or saying something, you are over as far as they're concerned, and i'm not quite like that. i make a living through listening and trying to understand why people think what they think and believe what they believe. i don't have any sympathy for the maga mentality, but i am obliged to understand where it comes from an obliged to understand where it comes from, but i don't strike up a conversation because i'm not that interested in having one just to feel like i am across the aisle. and in npr, let me just say i am not in any kind of npr.

we are distributed by wync, 450 some odd stations with criticism and commentary. i am not a reporter covering the news for npr. it is my job to ask the hard questions and make judgment and kind of call them as i see them. so, i don't want you to think that because i am so frank about my loathing for the way that the country has turned that i'm somehow speaking institutionally for the npr, of which i am in no way connected. so, please come if you have an issue with what i think or say or what i write, in this sparkling bond new fiction manifesto, editors and npr.

>> i first met him when he was 18-years-old. >> press mentality. >> you are involved in a project called purple project for democracy. even though you talked about how this is the solution that doesn't rise within the institutions, and the project, you talk about the whole of the press has a major institution, and i wondered if you could talk about that a little bit, because as you noted, we are an institution that isn't highly regarded yet. perhaps the burden is on us. to fix this thing called democracy. i wonder if you can talk a little about that. >> i would like to see the press and the media in general take up the challenge. it is an ongoing project referring to the data points of

how people are giving up. we are doing our best to try to reverse the trend. it is utterly nonpartisan, believe it or not, you can let these ideas in your head at the same time, they've been speaking to you all might come its not the guy that is in the project t for democracy, that is all about trying to get people engaged again and to recognize the stakes of giving up on democracy and understand how even our highly flawed democracy compared to other forms of government throughout the world. world. i can complain about the united states political mess all i want, but the we are out of pold or hungary or turkey or myanmar or philippines or brazil. they are not russia.

people need to have a perspective of what it is they are giving up when they start talking about authoritarianism. >> i just got the whispered. >> i don't care. [laughter] >> said, the question is what is the path forward and how do we restore press. it's in the position it as a big part of the problem as sort of the liberal not for the state but partisanship they are going to perform our function of the basic civics about how our democracy functions and to show a focus on heroes and remind

people that are not foreign janata government. we will be hearing more about it in 2020. and, you know, i only hope that apart from this polemic that i've written that, as a society, we can remember what an extraordinary gift it is to live in this country. let's fix this system and not go running to the devil you don't know. [applause] >> thank you to politics and prose for such an extraordinary institution. >> thank you all for being here and i'd like to say one more thing. you are under no pressure to buy a book but if you would like to

buy a boo book what i would stry advise is that you buy two books include debat debate can case gd forbid something were to happen to the first. [laughter] [applause] please form a line to the right of the desk to help the staff that folding up your chairs. thank you. >> [inaudible] booktv covers book fairs and festivals around the country. here is a look at what is coming up live at the savann savanna bk festival in georgia into the house follows the tucson couple of at the university of arizona. then look for us at the new orleans book festival at tulane university, and at the virginia festival of the book at charlottesville. for more information on doctors and festivals in festival coverage, click on the book fairs tab on the website,

booktv.org. >> next on booktv "after words," journalists andrea bernstein chronicles the rise to prominence. interviewed by "washington post" business reporter jonathan o'connell. with relevant guest hosts interviewing talking on fiction authors about their latest works, all "after words" programs are also available as podcasts. >> post color happy to be joined here by a andre andrea bernsteie cohost of the trump podcast, very important podcast, and the author of the new book, "american oligarch."