political campaign. after that, financial times columnist and cnn analyst, will argue large tech companies are feeling to keep consumer data privacy can secure. followed by an "in depth" interview author and professor, on capitalism and socialism. we will wrap up the evening with journalist andrea, the chronicles rise to prominence. look at your program guide for more information. now here is anna wiener. >> we are honored and excited to be here today. she's an author but regular customer in our bookstore as well. recovered culture and her work has appeared in time magazine among other publications. at the new york times, extinguished reporter.

she often appears. the book signing will be in the back. and we would appreciate it if you keep the lines wall-to-wall. enjoy being with us. [applause]. [inaudible]. >> is more than 20 people here. [background sounds]. >> cspan behavior. [laughter]. i'm not going to curse tonight. i will try not to. i am thinking and i think you are thinking that we should probably started off, with part

of the book and will be nice to having read apart. >> thank you. thank you by succumbing. especially for those people were standing. my frequent customer, the person who used to run to hear. and then stop. thank you guys for coming. this is very nice. i think i will read something, a section near to my heart. it's about a venture catalyst on twitter. [laughter]. he was regionally relevant. and then even into capitalism. [laughter]. [background sounds].

>> thank you for your service. do you think you hate yourself after being at berkeley. [laughter]. had a strong for an intake session i thought. the next day i saw myself following venture capitalist. it wasn't exactly an active self-care. mr. callis were discussing a universal basic income, i couldn't look away. they were concerned about the economic essential of the urban poor. as icebergs mountains national temperatures uninhabited stability, they were looking at a i specifically the question of the day would turn on it. and would bring about a certain world war. artificial in villages, the machines would do the works of the rest of us, could focus on her art. the vcs wanted lots grant

government services. ai inspired revolution, were bunkers in new zealand, and peanut butter. ai renaissance, the students a capitalist started enrolling in pottery classes. since they were automated out of a job. if he sees a terrific they talk like nobody in them. sometimes they talk to him books and give ideas. how to apply microeconomic theories to complex social problems. the future media, cultural stagnation and the builders mindset. they talked about how to find a good generating more ideas is a monthly to have more things to talk about. despite the feverish inefficacy of open markets, continues innovation the venture class cannot be are light upon of capitalism. there's like about the structural criticizing capitalism from a smart phone.

and if they were not a good task. they found a world to kaleidoscope started. they want to eliminate it economic inequality. every vocal insight capitalist person i met, providing angel investor. areas like antiquity, cdc and for me your best scholars, learn from the masters. and then return home with the knowledge of the network you need. do you know see them. in fact the venture capitalist were not above inspiration culture. [inaudible]. venture capitalists are not above inspiration culture. they shared reading lists and product recommendations. and they were humble. eat healthy they said during

class and travel and meditate and find your wife. never give up, and preach the gospel of 80 hour work weeks. whatever they denigrated the worklife balance. the determination for startup success, learn how many of them had an executive assistant. a personal assistant. or both. i can imagine making millions of dollars dollars of your choosing to spend less time on social media. there's almost an internet connection. i also thought just e-mail each other. [laughter]. they do, they talk like that. then the internet was good for anything, wasn't this pretty transparency, as the minds of industry elites. no better way to know which catalyst run their hands who had to write the politics or how applying practices to life was going. how to know which members of the

venture class ascended the founders as entrepreneurs credit scale. and perceive themselves as victims of digital mobs. how is to understand the amplified ideologies and investment strategies as people transferring society. and these were the people i was helping make rent. i will stop there. [applause]. [inaudible]. some of these folks that you're talking about. an ambivalent book. i am thinking about even beginning of the narrative and

you sort of wide-eyed approach after your career in publishing. and from a publishing point. like what happened. from the beginning, you helping this work here or did you sort of come in with a maybe maybe things are as optimistic and genuinely, like how did you come into that. >> the year 2012, working in publishing, i realized that people make money in the jobs and this is a revelation to me. i think a long time, for little while about an really hard. i wanted to believe it. so there was sort of like intricate self-delusion or something.

for long time. i think that the industry wasn't fun to me. i think the way people speak and sort of like corporate feel, has to be funny. or otherwise it is terribly depressing. but i do think writing about it or having it in any criticizing it gently. if is not wildly negative in the book. my dad was like, venture capitalist really don't get a regular book. they can take it. i just middlemen. [laughter]. >> sorry to the one guy in the back. [laughter]. >> were both open-minded

individuals. it's just a structural position. >> a lot of the criticism that i hear a lot of the times is these are new yorkers coming in. and they're bringing their sort of critical approach to this. if your criticism leads to how things work or could you apply it to other industries. like you were in publishing before. this is for some sort of commentary. >> absolutely yes. i think that this is interesting. the workplaces are providing the stuff of literature. like someone inside of the workplace.

i don't know that i would've necessarily written a book about it. many have done this before. many trainer, editorialist. >> as an editorial assistant, and what that is like and how - >> industries in publishing are different ways that are upsetting and obviously in economics, each has a turnover. norm and i think that the social relationships that you have to have to maintain certain professional ambitions and this might be what it is to be what it's like to be in business. >> it sounds like twitter. >> well except but, your career

advancement depends on who you are dinner with on a thursday. but on twitter everybody is having dinner alone on twitter. but i think, you could probably skew on the industry. i just remember that there are people in this room might be from there. >> go for it man pretty. >> book publishing, i felt that sort of as a first-person narrative about that era. there's been about previous areas, errors. a vantage point of centrally level employee. maybe woman. what is it like to be a woman intact. sorry, people keep asking me

things. so you are a woman. and you work intact. how is that going. it wasn't like child this like or many imposed about how to fire up your staff. but still feel good about the family. ... ...

it was easy reading app for an iphone i had reached out because i read on this review blog that this company had raise $3 million and it was seeing money it wasn't for serious aid. [inaudible] >> that's where i get, it plays a lot. and for me $3 million was like, associate this. [laughter] this is the future this is what the industry will be. it will be netflix, e-books, i want to do that because i could not see a future for myself in books. there is a ton of money for

three recent college graduates but not of money for the venture capitalists in the back i'm sure are cringing, this killing them. we don't know anything. so i sort of figured i would be the book expert, so i wrote a lot of e-mails to them and said i love books, i know that it's annoying to see that i keep having to ask you what a backend is. [laughter] i am a reader and you need someone like me on staff. and they didn't. they were very kind about it and were like there's this company in san francisco you should know about -- i've been using this analytic software to see how people were using the app and i was doing very minimal, not even analysis just data collection. and the people who made the software, had to start up it was fewer than 20 people they were unicorn or rocketship,

bob loblaw well rocketship, i want to be on a rocketship. everyone in book publishing is like i think this could potentially make the list. in three years. i don't know. [laughter] this sounded good so i went and interviewed at this company that makes analytic products. and that was that. sorry this feels like a job interview. [laughter] what do you want for me? >> okay so you started this from i'm guess i'm just wondering where you were inspired, you get into it for whatever, but i think the thing that a lot of folks didn't say in new york or journalism or whatever it's aside on the mission. and was the mission there for

you at the beginning? >> yes. i was not a journalist at any point until like last year. that skepticism and cynicism, i wasn't reading a lot about the tech industry. i didn't know that you had really cynical snarky valley wag for just these business see -- you won't believe what this young billionaire wears on sundays. [laughter] is the same thing yours every day. except is not the same outfit. [laughter] i think -- we haven't talked a lot about book publishing but coming from that industry where there is no momentum in everything with a dead end to sadly beat a 20 person company to matter, to feel useful. was i not only useful but i was contributing in a way that kept the momentum going. i was in customer support so it wasn't like the geniuses there to build our infrastructure. [laughter]

it felt like it was less about the mission of the company than the feeling of working on something with the small group of people who i really liked. it was working, and that seemed so improbable that you would have an organization of 20 people run by a couple of 204 to 205 -year-olds who -- it just kept getting better and better. this is like my pitch for small start up. [laughter] i think i was really down for that momentum if not like this is going to make the world a better place. is it analytics is fascinating and i personally find this product very interesting and can sort of justify it as an extension of my association and trade a sociology bachelors degree from six years ago. but i don't think i was like -- data collection, storage, analysis, unbeknownst to the user, like god knows where it goes?

that is making the world better. this is fundamentally interesting in a business education, so this is an industry that emphasizes individual. so i felt individually quite useful and great in a way that was tied to the collective efforts but was also distracting enough i was like perhaps data collection is part of a broader economy. we weren't having these conversations. >> you don't sort of get into the vocation of what you're doing? >> no it's working for your customers and this is awesome and you are helping us optimize the flow to achieve whatever goal, which is usually some automation events. and everyone is stoked because they are making money and you are making money when they make money. but the feedback, the people say this thing you helped make, even though i didn't help make i just tell people use it. this then you are

participating in is helping us make money, is a subtext. that feels great and it feels great to be like are you having a problem with the software? let me tell you how to fix it. have you ever had knowledge about something? it's amazing to be like i can fix your problems. i have never ever fix anyone's problems. in any way. so there is a lot of intoxicating social stuff. >> there is a lot in there but the hierarchy of customer support versus pms is always very interesting to me and i guess i am just wondering how that initially you can feel good about your position and that company. but was that ever sort of underscored to you over time? i've always heard these

stories about their really heavy culture so we want to go there. or they don't value x and f. i guess i am just wondering if that was made clear to you over time? >> when someone who wants to go there. >> no the hierarchy of where you stood? >> i still like soft skills, soft skills, how those work. it's very interesting and often soft skills are being told you're not technical enough or enough to potentially show more credentials and someone else in your role, i think often there's a dichotomy used as a cover for the perpetuation of certain inequities or bias. anyway i think it's a racialized psychotic me.

and i think this idea that engineering fields are more valuable has to do with the markets. but having been in the position of trying to hire people for softech ors what's considered soft skill jobs is incredibly hard. and potentially harder for certain things you find someone who can write fluently about data, was for me harder than finding than it was for the engineers to find a mid-level engineer. so i don't know, i see both sides of that equation. but i think engineering skills are the primary focus. a lot of the company perks are oriented towards hiring and rotating those employees. so obviously you can't have a product without it, i get that. without the people, but it does lead to this internal

hierarchy that can leave a lot of people feeling like second-class citizens. i mentioned race and gender, because i think that's a baked into that hierarchy. so it can influence how things are run internally. >> i think that's exactly what i'm getting at. i appreciate you laying that out, and that's now coming to bear a little bit more. but the question is around what should be the most prized possession in the company? who is going to be hired? you tell me, but i feel like fundamental assumptions of value are actually questioned in the wake of whatever. just ask the question. >> i think what is concerning to me, is that this conflation

that i think is not specific and unique to the valley it's like american capitalism. but it feels amplified in the valley. this idea that your personal worth is directly correlated to your economic output or your economic output and value in the marketplace. and that there is something morally superior about being an engineer or having what is assumed to be a certain mindset value system. and that has sort of a weird -- it runs in different ways. i guess it's just this sort of like -- that a certain hierarchy inside the companies, but also it leads to a mindset that is very oriented towards optimizing toward the bottom line or something. that has -- at the humane approach to life or to leadership, or to organization. so anyway. chat no way.

[laughter] >> i think the leadership thin thing -- so let's get past your first start up we go to your next startup and the buckets referenced and you get to the second ceo who is challenging? or interesting? i don't know exactly how to describe that. but it seems typical of a lot of the issues that one might have for a leader here. and i guess i am just wondering did he seem -- at least at the time was he an avatar for problems in leadership intact? or did you see him as whatever a flawed human being? how did you question the sky? >> while it is in the book.

[laughter] yes, this ceo of the company, the second one i worked for an san francisco's 204 when i join the company and i was 205. obviously worldly experience beyond my age. he had been through the company -- the company had been through it and it's incredibly hard thing to do that for of adults many have dependence in debt or whatever. i do not envy anyone in that position. obviously you self select for that position if you are lucky. what i have a lot of sympathy for someone who is growing up at the same time they are learning how to be a ceo. i think that executives, few of them but one is that i feel the behavior i saw institutionally as well as was t of structural position than any individual failure.

and i also realize that's exculpatory narrative or scope the tory framework. >> so if you read the book she does not name any of the companies or the people. but it's pretty obvious. >> is very google a bowl. it's not to be coy or offer a puzzle for people to solve. although it's kind of fun. bowl more is that i just want to record is what i think is a common leadership style, it has more to do the incentives of the business models than of the industry. and let me illustrate this i told this anecdote at another reading. i feel like i am walking into these readings with my own

book and i'm like an american girl doll. [laughter] so here i am with my book telling my anecdotes. [laughter] so i think he was in new york somebody came up to me after reading, they had read my book and mentioned the scene in which i talk about how early members of my team were in a conference room and the manager asked us to are the five smartest people that you know? write their nays down and we all did the exercise. and then he said okay look at your list and why don't they work here? >> one of them was abraham lincoln. [laughter] >> why would they work here? this doesn't make sense there so many other useful things in interesting things to do the world. why would my friends who are in graduate school, they probably would make their way to attack. why would these people who are smart and talented and interested in other things, why should they be working at this analytics company.

i'm here because i don't know what my purposes in life and i'm trying to figure that out why have this awesome salary and have health insurance. but this idea that the five best people you know should work here has value. >> that's what i think about a lot do you think that is how these companies work? you think it's required? >> this is the antidote i'm telling. [laughter] i guess i totally do. i apologize i'm behaving as though i should have a one line answer for everything. so this woman came up to me after this event, and the same thing happened in my company. and as a first time i heard this another woman head started with a start up company in san francisco had texted me to it say this was like déjà vu for me. i cannot believe this happened

to you they must've read it on the blog post because i too was pulled into a room and asked to write down five nays of the smartest people i know in a totally different company. the ceos must be friends braids i feel there is this thing that happens in this culture that it would be anti-intellectual, there's more about that in the book too. [laughter] that has to do with more of people read business advice, who have never run a company before, they have a time of money a ton of accountability to their investors, china responsibility to their employees. and they're trying to figure out how to lead and they read a blog post on here you can scale hiring and get really good people for your core team. that will set the tone for the rest of your company. chorale your employees into the conference room and ask you the smartest people they know are and then push them to recruit them and say will pay you five to $8000. recruit. i tried so hard to recruit people who were not the

smartest people that i knew. [laughter] so anyway, i think the industry has value. you can speak just as well that maybe you have seen this in your excellent book length of newburgh,. [inaudible] it's called super pumped by mike isaac, it's available at this bookstore. he will be signing "after words". [laughter] i think the company cultures are shaped by the business model in the business incentives those are shaped by the incentives that interest the venture capital so you have prioritization of speed and scale and acceleration. that's coupled with the libertarian spirit of the industry that has been incubating, if you will, for 205, 30, 40 years. and 2020 longer 50 years? [laughter] and you kind of get this weird

cultural product that doesn't value expertise, it values speed over consideration and research. it has this iterative complex, i don't know what i'm talking about them so sorry i just am going for. [laughter] >> i don't remember, the. >> is this on c-span? >> so, alright so it's fair to say there's a lot of skewing in the book. i am wondering if there are parts of your experience and so many of these companies that you take with you, that are actually appreciated? a lot of the time, those in the valley come from a lot of tech folks who think again tech is doing good for the world and unabashedly on apologize for this thing. and in questioning that is dangerous sometimes.

and so i guess i am wondering for the benefit of that town, if there are parts of that culture that you appreciated and took away from your time there? and if you say no that's fine too. >> there is, this is like the heart of the book is ambivalence. i think there was a lot that i appreciated about working intact. i don't know, if in my 30s i would go back and appreciate the same things to be totally honest. i happen to be the right age and have the right year earnings to be sort of the ideal employee in a certain way. in my 20s, i'm 32. [laughter] so four years ago. when it might have mattered. but yeah, in my 20s not knowing anyone, from a

different city, trying to find meeting, being told here's your meeting and run with it. i think what i admired and appreciated was a, roderick, the sort of commitment to a common project -- a collective project if you will. i liked that people had taught me, or seem to have a ptolemy at least for a little while. i think that is also part of the problem of people having a ptolemy who don't necessarily have the authority to have that i taught a a ptolemy or shouldn't but there should be so much potential in that. even though the people with the most autonomy just replicates how structures exist externally, and they have existed for years. initially that was exciting for me. there is one more thing that i actually really did enjoy and appreciate about start up culture. , i think it's very earnest to someone who is consulate

vacillating between the attached a mockery and deep painful earnestness. [laughter] i don't know if you can relate. >> my entire life. >> they might be wrong, but i genuinely believe that people think they are doing good for the world. i think they believe it and i trust them when they say it. and i think what is missing, is more of a -- the problems are systemic i don't think they are necessarily rooted in the individual it's a chance of what you make of that. but i do wonder, i don't actually know if you are legally allowed to answer this question, you just moved here and you don't have to ask answer. i've heard people say that uber couldn't exist if it didn't have this crazy

culture. my question obviously is should exist? and obviously that culture shouldn't exist and if you don't have that culture and the company doesn't happen, that's fine. but,. >> deutsche. [laughter] [inaudible] [laughter] do you see a structural explanation for his behavior? one that is incentives and incentives of the business model or the industry that could potentially be forgiving of someone like that? >> i think you're getting it the exact right thing. i think the whole -- if you boil down how all of this works, you are getting investment in your company, you have to hit the next level whatever it is whether it's users, revenue or something, and for most companies that can get kind of desperate to start doing things that maybe you might not be -- might not

be legal. i don't know i think is just baked into how a lot of this works. i think there is justification, right? the people who already own the space, the incumbents are protected in ways that are not necessarily fair and you can believe -- i'm not saying it's wrong, but you can believe in your own reasons for doing this stuff. >> and just to the back on my own argument, i do think people are in the same structural position and are not acyl. >> i'm not calling anyone specific and acyl. >> you don't have to be a jerk to do well the industry. depending upon who the ceo is, you know? i don't know. you tell me. >> it seems unfair to answer that. >> so i'm thinking sorry i'm sweating right now. i am thinking about, i think

all of you know about tech lash at this point. that sort of the moment we are in. the same wired phenomenon of were not, i am what some might call disillusionment. >> we are all eating through the trough of disillusionment. [laughter] >> you can wallow in this gnarly. for a long time and so i'm wondering, i'm wondering what the next part of this is. are we going to sort of say tech is back for a long period of time? is that what were saying or what is -- where we going? just tell me the future.

>> this is great leverage for me as my future career as a futurist. [laughter] so what if i just wanted to work for google and told them i was the new. [laughter] i'm just looking for a grip. i think a potentially gentler narrative for me right now is not that tech is bad, but it is boring. and tech is on imaginative. and what i mean by that is there could be so much more. forgive me for the tools are in place for there to be a much more interesting vibrant and creative industry. more exploratory, more experimental,. >> the problems we are attacking are not big enough? >> have you not heard this criticism before?

it's not to say that some tech companies aren't bad, some are bad and doing bad things. but i guess i feel there is so much we haven't tried yet and the industry is still relatively young. it's hard to be like this generation of the industry because it so rooted in the past and i don't want to say it's exceptional in any way, you've got to work with what you've got. i feel there's a lot we haven't tried in response tech to untangling some of the problems we find ourselves in now which are related to privatization, data collection, centralization, the reliance on ad networks, atomization and everything is hyper customized. this obsession of scale that leads to a product like spotify that wipes out.

>> sorry there's an emergency alert is everything okay? >> if there's an emergency i think everyone would want to know. [laughter] i'm sorry. >> i feel i don't know what comes next i think what has to shift is the structure of the incentives. until that changes we are going to have companies for who the fayez and shanghai's definition is to be a monopoly. and i don't feel that serves society best. and i also feel that is really on imaginative. there is a lot happening in the industry is very cynical and that has to do with this sort of baked in spirit of circumvention. and i am thinking of i don't mean to pick this out, it's what's in front of my mind because as reading something

earlier, i'm sorry and like choosing between two paths. something like all of these rationing's out. it's hugely useful to me this consulate running late. i would prefer to be taking public transportation but do these products circumvent civic participation or civic institutions. do they augment them like black my ridership or whatever. the other thing i can think of is this one account that has a marketed excel to an alternative college degree. part of that rationale as you can get a job really quickly that pays you extremely well. it's kind of an income junk that is respectable, useful and valuable. but also a way to avoid the student debt that one might incur from getting a degree in english. and so for me.

>> i have an english degree. >> is like my nightmare on summit has an english or because i do not have an english degree. rather than its the crisis here is that we made it so hard to live that we had to orient our entire life from your teenage years towards having your education becomes instrumentalized in this way to get you a job. that social failure i think. that's not what education should be necessarily in a functional enriched society. you also have the student debt crisis. totally legitimate that you would want -- that a person would want to launch themselves into a different career track to pay off their debt, to avoid debt, but again the start up is to circumvent the institutions. it served privatized in the functional society be a public good or service. so whether that's education or

transportation. so anyway this is just my pitch for a different model, but i do think things have to change for that business must be less exciting to be not the only option. >> it's hard because salaries are always going to be way bigger when you are outside of the model. and it's just part of what dissolutions people who don't want to go to the public sector, or the incumbent companies. its stock and what it is, and maybe they are not creating something new or maybe they are discontent and being at status quo. i think part of what society gives that idea, the need to break out of that idea. i don't know. >> you work at a newspaper, and i work at a magazine, sort of. [laughter] so clearly this is not infiltrated. [laughter] there are certain things

happen for reason and i'm not trying to defend the dmv website did they get my info did they not it's like russian roulette it could be interesting. i'll just show up in three months. [laughter] would do think that tech values speed and scale. and perhaps some things are better experience, at least on a spiritual level i think also on the social level as processing. something that builds over time and as a collective effort. it is reliance on, i guess i'm thinking to your earlier question about tech like publishing. this is an example of years before i feel like i've become a windup doll, one that is dying. and after something you can continuously change you push

your products you ship a patch or affix or whatever, i'm not in the industry and market speak like an idiot. you actually want -- when your book is done it's done. and there's a reason it takes so long and there's a reason they have two copy editors go through it and you said it to your friends. you have an editor and multiple eyes on the product because when it's done and it's out of the world. you don't want to rush that or expedite certain things for the sake of quality. i don't know where going with this. this is my fevers defense of the book in the bookstore. [laughter] but i do think it's a product that represents certain values of the industry. and our culture doesn't necessarily value slowness or small-scale, small businesses. look at your cities, look at your cities look around, it's

endemic, it's not just the tech it is just an applicatio amplification of a social moment. >> i have a few questions and a people here would like to get a few questions in. so maybe we could start to answer a few and then ask a few last ones. but i've a few friends that wanted me to it ask you a few questions. they might not be your friends. why are all tech people into. [laughter] >> not all tech people. [laughter] we spent too much time on the internet.

[silence] >> there is a section about about adm. when i need to stay awake and i just cannot drink any more caffeine. or if i need to get pumped before i don't do anything that needs to be pumped. [laughter] i wrote my book on edm and you can actually tell the sections when i was really blasting it. it's really motivating, i don't know. i think that edm -- i think there's an energy and it can be made quickly. i think it is music that has speed took, i don't know i am not a music journalist. some of the audience i love to ask, kyle lawrence. >> it's really hard to be in the city were very hard to get like a drum set is a much easier to make music on a computer specially feel of the city. i feel like that is happening

all over edm exploded in 2008 and that also coincide with rents getting more expensive. [laughter] >> there is in them aging unchecked amazing profile and i believe is by jessica, i'm sorry whoever it is, about a vici, of never said that out loud. [laughter] and it's incredible it explains that will culture to me for some it is ever been to an adm concert and could probably not withstand the drugs recommended to go to those concert. anyway i recommend reading that. >> another question burke

friends, what will it take to get tech ceos to question they techno solutions that really undergird the narrative. meaning sort of a technologica technological -- tech will be the solution to some of the worlds problems bread which i think about a lot i think of mark zuckerberg and his solution to the problem that facebook have is more facebook. or looking at facebook in a different way. i don't know if that's a but it's a path. >> mike zuckerberg has solutions for the problem he created. >> even if i don't beat up on mark, think the larger thing is the answer to our problem is more of what we are doing and the underlining assumption here is it's not true. i am just wondering will that

ever change or do you think that is the direction we are going? >> i knew what could change ceos minds i would be so wealthy, i would not be here i would be rolling in money. [laughter] in facebook's defense, i'm getting it canceled. facebook does have unprecedented problems to deal with. for me the question is let's assume facebook exists and it will continue to exist and marcus' upper gerber will continue to lead the company. what does this mean for facebook to ethically, responsibly deal for itself? and so, just because my perspective tends to be a

question about moderation and speed. just because you can upload a video does not mean you should be able to. same thing with youtube. what would it mean to throttle user generated content. what would it meet if you had your moderators full-time staff of full-time benefits with mental health benefits if necessary. if you pay them a living salary, and invested in research to the repercussions of this sort of work. and then experts and regional experts for all of the places where facebook exists. and whatever. if you are taking the steps, and again i don't have a diagnosis for facebook and i think some of it seems made up. for facebook to invest in a solution to itself and think it's a total and utter collapse of facebook. for facebook for consumers forget about the business side, but to close data

participation to give an option for data retention and who it's shared with. i suspect a lot of people wouldn't care, i would also suspect people would care plenty and this could lead to the erosion of facebook as a business. you would probably get sort of a nice social platform where people posted articles about projects and nobody cared. but it would be in the collapse of business as us functional -- and changing the world the solution and mindset and the question that always comes to mind for me as for whom and to what end? and what costs question works with three questions. but i think there is no incentives for people to behave differently. there is no incentive for mark zuckerberg to say it would be great if we spent all of our

money on making our contractors full-time hires. and so the question becomes okay what are the levers that still exist? i think they are incredibly minimal, there are and we haven't tried that. and then you have the collective leverage in of people inside these companies whom i say i don't want to work on something. or we want to push for whatever policy. obviously they don't want their workers to organize in any way. so that that becomes a question then one of the reason someone will be scared to organize? and that might be immigration or visa or health insurance or facebook paying them fat salaries. whatever, so i just think that these are all bigger questions than any just one company or industry. >> tell your friend i have no idea. sorry. >> does anyone have any questions of the audience i

would love to hear what you are all thinking about. look at that, wow. >> there is a boom mic. i want to hear if you had any response from this book by people. [inaudible] your intentions to create a bridge in a way and tell the story of the people there. did anybody reach out to you in the way that you are surprising for understanding your views that you were not expecting? we met the people that i worked with? or people in general? a lot of people have reached out, and that is always

interesting and exciting for me. especially when it's been people who worked in the industry. i think the book, because it's observation and personal, i've heard from people -- and nothing has surprised me exactly, but i'm sort of surprised, i think whenever you write about something, people will have a lot of opinions about you will get people saying this is political or polemical, there's too much personal story there's not enough personal story, i think -- and think what always surprises me and people reach out and said they had the exact same situation but worked in a different company in a different year. so that to me is obviously self serving that these are sick to systemic issues. i still remain surprised by

that because of the personal book. you sort of one to believe that these things only happen to you, and it can be devastating when you find out is this systemic pattern. >> a big part these stress a lot in the book, which i'm halfway through, is a youth and inexperience and how that plays into it not going well. but i'm curious as in previous companies in previous areas you work your way up to get to the top. do you think there is a world in which young people being in charge of a company or been entity could work? if it's not attack or is that just a recipe for failure? >> that's a great question, could young people lead a political movement?

[laughter] yeah, i don't think that age actually has much to do with this. i think it has more to do with the values attached to that. i think that with tac -- technology moves quickly, the point of technology is to render itself obsolete in many cases. so i think people are excited about use because use coordinates with the latest things in technology. but i think the industry also has a sort of a historical slant that if you are working in politics or in a different industry, then you'd probably want to do the research and grounded in some tradition. tac, i think it's different than that for other reasons is anti- institutional in ways

and obviously we can get different things. i think the use -- people who can behave in certain ways that who are 18 it's indistinguishable. we all know people who are millennial's and act like a baby brewer. to think that people respond to their environment in a lot of ways. i don't and there's a pat answered. i think tac accelerates and amplifies those qualities for sure. but that's on the business side actually. that's my guess. >> can you talk about the time when uncanny valley came out what changed is your approach to riding in the story itself? or the world in general? >> the book comes out of an essay i wrote for a magazine a fictionalized essay. that started out as a book review. in sort of morphed into these antidotes for my own life that

i only wrote to entertain my friend dana. when it came out, i really enjoyed writing it and having a bigger project in mind and have been taking notes on how to approach my work objectively as a literary inquiry. maybe my work i thought i would write a just book of short stories. that got a lot more attention than i thought it would. it was very surprising to me, very people intact read it. and that was very gratifying. e-mails from people in tac saying you articulated something that is unsettling to me too. they were watching me. i sort of figured i'd write about it in ten or 20 years, it was a running joke with friends and publishing they said you're going to write a novel about tech. i said no, it's not worthy of a novel.

but as it turns out. [laughter] and that i sort of put on back burner started writing book reviews in a little bit about the second straight not necessarily in a critical way than just reflecting on the news. and then after the 2016 election i had a feeling what i had been experiencing was going to change. i sort of have been operating under the assumption that this is what tac was it is going to continue forever. the same people would be there and this was going to be sort of inevitable. i know i'm super articulate. and then after the election it felt things were actually going to change. phallic things ended it was more urgent to write about it because -- i felt like i could no longer take for granted what was there. i think my own feeling about the industry started to shift. it coincided with my feelings about my job shifting.

i was doing content moderation and content policy at a time when a lot more right wing material was surfacing like far far right-wing. and i just felt like the game was sort of over for me. but my work makes me feel bad, i don't words going, i don't know if i believe in the endgame, and i don't know if this trade-off is worth it. maybe i should go to law school? [laughter] it started to feel like i had aged out of my particular situation and when i looked around and started to think where my going with this? what's the trajectory for someone like me? i had trouble feeling good about my options. and it's not that they weren't attainable, i think i could have done anything, not to be arrogant, but i think this is an industry if you believe and try, and are a white woman with a college degree from a

good university you are rewarded for nothing. [laughter] in some ways. [laughter] anyway, i think my personal feeling shifted, the political shifted and it felt urgent and awaited away that i didn't anticipate. >> i should've had a one sentence for that, sorry. >> okay you and them will go here. this right here. >> i was wondering if it's a conscious decision the reason i was listening to women who had turned into novels and based on real facts, real moments and real people. was it a conscious decision to write this way? >> over the other books quest mark.

>> one was. [inaudible] so interesting. sue met they both turned into novels but katie just change the name didn't come up? >> it was a thought, this little this is a litigious industry and i am not. [laughter] there's people that work on wealth and a lot of power and they really don't like criticism. they are not used to it either. i thought about writing but the general feeling is nothing happened to me here that i participated in, that if i had read in fiction know it would believe be. and i think that coming from a woman in a technical position, that people would ignore it or

discredit it, or undermine in some way. so it was important to me to it write it as nonfiction. it was important to me that it not be misread as satire. because there's a lot of stuff is quite funny, but the book is documentation. it's just saying how things are and how people are, how they speak could be misread as satire and i feel very strongly that is not on me. [laughter] so nonfiction felt like the move, and i wanted it to be a personal story, not a reported piece, knowing my own strengths and staying in my own lane kind of things. but yeah, yeah. >> wow, we should do like one or two more. so i've been doing so many podcasts i'm ready to talk for an hour. >> that's great just keep

talking. it's got gary here. >> a lot of the book is really personal and i am kind of curious as you were recalling these stories, what were some of the emotions? were you angry when some of these things when you remember these things. were you sad, happy or nostalgic? >> that's an interesting question. it was a little sad. very useful documents for me was my e-mails to friends about my life in my 20s. and the thing happened after work with the person i worked with, what you think this means? shall be worried about this? should i be excited about this? this conversation happened over three drinks, and my about to become an executive. [laughter]

so rereading was hard because it felt like i was reading, i have very close friends whom i write long e-mails so is like reading a diary. it was like reading a record of my own optimism and excitement and enthusiasm for the industry. and i think reading my own disillusionment and frustration and anger in a lot of ways, especially writing a book in 2017 and 2018 i was very angry about things that were happening in the world, in the industry. with friends of mine and, you know the book is from 2012 to 2016 and that was quite hard because i knew i was so close to it i had to try to be detached. that detachment was the most emotionally honest for the long-term. that anger often clarifies into some other positions, but would probably take a while for me to it understand. or an insight if not a

position. i guess i sort of feel great affection and frustration with this passive version of myself for buying in so hard and wanting some of those things. i don't know -- i think that's like anyone who writes personally who does research on themselves in this way. you sort of have to treat it like a research project. i will say it wasn't until i introduce a former colleague that i got really, really mad. i think that's because of who i am which i'm an ambivalent potentially cowardly person. i am constantly trying to get the doubt down and even this conversation is protecting people are protective of people who don't deserve it. and would not do the same for me not that he would have be reciprocal. i'm just constantly going to the mat for people in other ways for people who have not proven any evidence they deserve it.

talking to other people about shared experience and shared institutions, and their experiences was enraging and in some cases but again these are not my stories these are places i spent time in p placement time with. i hope at some point -- my hope is that in my journalistic work, those are not necessarily the specific stories but those assorted things i can highlight as a journalist. but i think that generally was more of this sorting through of emotional stuff, of being in my 20s. [laughter] so that's good, let's get one last one. you in the back right there. arnold we have to wait for the boom mic? [laughter] >> i am wondering if you find it more meaning in your work now as a journalist intact and if so why? steve meck is a very good

question. >> i do. i think that, i don't want to say not that journalism is more meaningful career is working and tackling a project manager. for me, i have found work that feels like something that makes sense for me. that's interesting and exciting to me. i think a lot of what was exciting in the first place made me interested in being and staying as an employee, being an employee and staying in the industry, that still really interesting to me. i have just found a better way to gauge in it and that's writing about it. it's kind of a stay in your own lane kind of thing. this is actually where i am potentially most useful, i hope. and that's meaningful to me.

i don't think there is any kind of empirical value to one or the other. but yeah, i don't know, it's a personal question. >> that's good,. >> you ever wish you a product manager at google? [laughter] no offense, but yeah. >> i feel very lucky to have found a place that makes sense right now. i don't want to take it for granted. >> that's very nice. everyone please give a round of applause. [applause] i think she is going to be signing books? i don't over the desk is. >> thank you folks are coming, this was quite long. thank you. [background noises]

>> it's the visit to the state of the net conference in washington dc. we will talk this week with a couple members of congress about issues such as privacy and 5g, we will also talk with other government officials. representative mcmorris rodgers, when you left republican leadership in the house you basically had your choice of any committee you wanted. why did you choose energy and commerce? >> i am excited to be on the energy and commerce right now. it is at the forefront of america's competitive and at the forefront of our future,he