gives insight into the nation's political process and the trump administration in her latest book, revolution, trunk, washington, and we the people. she is interviewed by author and columnist danielle mcglocklin. so we are very dynamic country, demographically, geographically socially, we are causally reinventing ourselves, not just as individuals but as a nation. and government, by its very nature is stuck it is a status quo institution. this is how we've always done it we're going to do things the same way again. it is people who then get stuck in that status quo. america set up to have these revolutions, political revolutions, we had went in the very beginning and the american revolution but ever since then we've had revolutions that played out in the battle box and that's it we're coming up. so watch kt mcfarland, revolution trump, we the

people. on "after words" on book tv. >> good evening, and welcome to the atlanta history center here in this wet night. i appreciate all of you coming out tonight and braving the weather to hear our author talk tonight with edward j larson. this is being recorded by c-span so please be sure to silence your mobile telephonic devices. you don't want to be embarrassed on a nationwide cable. this evening larson will discuss his newest book, franklin and washington. it has been named one of the ten most reads and reader in winter.

dual biography reveals that the partisanship of franklin and washington was indispensable to the success of the revolution. larson is a prolific author, speaker and darling chair law at pepperdine university. he is making his seventh appearance at the atlanta history center. we are delighted to welcome him back. larson is also the co-author of 18 books and hundreds of articles he has lectured on seven continents and right away contributes to the shows bbc, cnn, fox news, smm bc, and npr. larson won the pulitzer prize for history in 1998 for his book summer of the gods. america's continuous debate over science and religion. i must emphasize, and i'm sure to remind him every time that during each of his seven appearances here, that is pulitzer prize was awarded when he taught history at the university of georgia. since absconding to

california, he has numerous well-deserved honors but no pulitzer. [laughter] there are no coincidences. [laughter] turns out that humidity carries its own rewards. please join me in welcoming edward larson. [applause] >> guest: thank you. thank you all. and the reason i've been here so often is indeed because i taught for 20 years, and as those of you who are bulldogs we know franklin college at the university of georgia. hence, my interest in the subject. let me begin this way, my dear friends, my dear friend. those were the last words that benjamin franklin addressed to george washington. they came at the end of a letter written and what franklin knew would be the last year of his life.

washington closed his response to franklin with the salutation, your sincere friend. and this exchange, written in the first year of washington's presidency, each expressed and i'm quoting here -- undying respect and affection for the other. with franklin adding esteem and washington topping him with veneration. at the time, franklin and washington were the two most admired individuals in the united states. which is why franklin college, always done in georgia, the state university -- mike was not called the university of georgia it was called franklin college. and they were the most famous americans in the world. their final letters to each other represented a fitting and to a three decade partnership that more than any

other pairing would forge the american nation. the relationship began during the french and indian war when franklin supplied the wagons for british general and with ill-fated assault on fort duquesne. and washington buried the general's body under the dirt road traveled by those retreating wagons. both had warned braddock against the front tier tech. you will be cut to pieces going to the woods, which they were. rekindled in 1775 during the continental congress, this friendship continued through the revolution, the constitutional convention, and the establishment of the federal government. perhaps because of the differences in the background the age, the manor, the public image, their relationship was not widely commented on, and

remains little discussed today which is why decided to write a book about it. it existed, it helped to shape the course of american history. both have been hailed by the first american. they were also friends and unlike say adams and jefferson, never rivals. both were comfortable in their own skin and knew they were, they were confident people. their relationship gains historical significance, for course, during the american revolution when franklin led america's diplomatic mission to europe and washington commanded the continental army. victory required both of these efforts to succeed, and their success required, required coordination. this historic collaboration, when coupled with the role as

these two most prominent delegates to the constitutional convention, helped to found a nation and have a global experience and republican rule. i was interested at that in these times that leadership at work. how did these men work together? we know they had their differences, but how did they work together so seamlessly to create the united states? now, this is a different sort of partnership. usually when historians write about partnerships, they talk about partnerships, hierarchy help partnerships. washington and hamilton for example or jefferson and adams, where you can follow them neatly because one is easily supporting the work of the other. here we are talking about a partnership of equals. a partnership of two men, who by the time of the revolution, or larger-than-life heroes already. they went to the second

continental congress already the most famous americans. but there are sort of cooperations, that sort of partnership of equals. to just give a few examples, see all know. think of world war ii. roosevelt, franklin donor roosevelt and churchill were both necessary to defeat germany. they were equals. both had a huge history, both were already larger-than-life. and yet they work together for a common goal. or thinking down here, a local atlantean, think of lyndon bane johnson and martin luther king. both were necessary to pass the civil rights act. each were importance. and if you try to put one over the other like one movie selma tries to do one way are all the way does the other way, it does not tell the whole story. this was truly a partnership of equals who work together.

for me, that created a writing challenge. and which was part of the fun of the book. how to tell this joint story when they are not always -- where they have a separate story of their own. and so, what i ended up doing, was having to trayce or sketch both of their stories to show who they were, and then when they came together periodicall periodically -- such as in the french and indian war or during the american revolution or the con uncheck constitutional convention, then dig deeply of how these two grades and good men work together. so, to just begin, i'll tell a few other stories. to begin the french and indian war what first brought them together was because franklin, by this time, because of hard

work and sheer brilliance had risen in philadelphia for being an immigrant from boston, a runaway indentured service with nothing to being one of the richest men in the new world with a chain of print shops running all up and down the east coast and integrated backward into paper mills. also being a leading american humorist and popular writer, also being an adventure with the franklin stove, already and the world famous scientist because of electricity. and when the french and indian war came, it was fought over the ohio country. that is the area around pittsburgh, the focus of the ohio it's called, into eastern ohio, western pennsylvania, new jersey, and because of a fluke. because of errors in the original colonial land grants, pennsylvania had a claim going

directly west including the importance of the ohio and the ohio company. and virginia haddock claim, straight line at the bottom, but the potomac up. and that meant both claim the ports of ohio. in both were part jacking settlers back there, both are investing back there. then in the 1850s -- 1750s, the french move-in. they invade. they had already had louisiana, they already had canada and they decided they'd take the ohio river valley to connected to more conveniently conveniently. and so they sent in an army and they started building forts. and they raised up the native americans to attack the pennsylvania and virginia settlers. franklin was made commander-in-chief and the creator of the pennsylvania militia. by happenstance, and the death of his brother was the leader of the virginia militia, lawrence washington,

washington became -- at a young age, franklin was in his 40s, washington was in his 20s, became commander-in-chief of the virginia militia. so they had to fight together against the french. and this is when they first got together. many meetings, many times, many coordinations, franklin turns out to be a brilliant strategist if he just knew where to put the force to protect the pennsylvanians. washington goes in there and they work together. in various occasions, ultimately leading to a joint army freeing the fort duquesne at the forks of the ohio. rather than to go into all the details of the cooperation, what last is what they learn. because they learn the same lesson. from their work as the officers in charge of the militia, the respective colonies during the french and indian war, they learned

similar lessons. first, they learned that the british had different objectives from their american colonist. the british wanted to keep the colonies divided and dependent, franklin concluded. and would readily tax them without representation. washington found the british willing -- unwilling to secure the front tier on, as it served their larger geopolitical interest. and after the colonists wanted, they took it back with a proclamation of 1776. 1763. second, franklin and washington learned that american colonists would always remain subordinate to their british counterparts. washington's bitter frustration with rankin confirmed it. he pleaded for royal commission that his brother had. without receiving one. and was compelled as a kernel and the virginia militia to submit to the lowest of

british officers. as for franklin, when pennsylvania's proprietors, who still ran that colony within broad parameters, set by parliament, heard of his appointment after the war as the assemblies agent in london, they dismissed his influence in england. tom penn coolly sneered, mr. franklin's popularity is nothing here. he will be looked on very coldly by the great people. third, the american colonies, they both concluded, would benefit from greater unity as re- selected and franklin's albany plan which was proposed during the series. tying the colonies together and washington's call for joint inter- colonial military action to beat the french. after all, it was a force composed of troops from five colonies, not from england, that finally drove the french

from fort duquesne. this experience made washington, as much as franklin, a believer in union. these three lessons might suggest benefits from american independence. but were insufficient to supply -- to support it as a realistic option. a final shared lesson carried more weight. despite the wars ultimate outcome, the british were beatable and new world combat. they both concluded. as franklin wrote about the battle that destroyed the british army, and killed general braddock, this whole transaction gave us americans the first suspicion that our exalted ideas of the prowess of british regulators was not well-founded. washington had been there to see it and reported back at least in frontier fighting,

virginia's shoulders outperformed british regulars. if put to the test, they might do so again. coupled with the disastrous effects of brisk colonial policy, following the french and indian war, these shared lessons, these four shared lessons help to nurture the revolutionary spirit that brought franklin in washington back together again a quarter-century later, to fight and forge a new american union. at war's end franklin had gone to london as the representative, first of the pennsylvania colony, pennsylvania assembly but seeing how successful he was, five other states, including colonies including georgia ask him to be their representative to in london. meanwhile, washington inherited due to his brother lawrence's death, inherited mount vernon. he use this time to turn what was a failing tobacco plantation because of played

out soil, into a very selection collection of five weeks farms with drain mills. eventually would be the largest whiskey distillery in the new world. it was brilliant entrepreneurship on his part. but a new war brought them back together in 1735. this is a story we all sort of know, but if you place it out, if you really follow it closely, if you watch the different steps rather than look in broad terms, you see this next phase has three stages. three separate stages. first, there was while they were both at philadelphia, the second continental congress. washington have been selected by virginia, franklin had come home and been selected by pennsylvania. when they arrived in philadelphia they were the two superstars, from the very beginning. they were heroes of the french and indian war. franklin was also famous as a diplomat, and the two of them

were appointed to virtually every committee. so they had to work together on the same committees. certainly every committee involving war and diplomacy. then, at franklin's urging, washington's promoted to commander-in-chief and he goes up to the siege of boston, to cambridge to oversee the siege of boston where a ragtag militia of about 16000 men had trapped 5000 british regulars, held them combined in boston but of course there's the british navy so they can always leave but they were powerless to move forward. washington goes in and takes over this army becomes commander-in-chief, with franklin supported urging. now, then franklin is left in charge of most of the war committee. he regularly meets with washington, he goes up to cambridge to meet with him

during the siege of boston. he goes up to new jersey to meet him when the war moves down to new york. and then when washington sends troops up to try to conquer canada, franklin goes with them and tries to persuade the canadian people to view this invading army as an army of liberation. the guy was 70 years old. and he was at the battlefront. people didn't live as long then. franklin did, but they didn't usually live as long. i could go into the various details of their meetings together, that's what i try to explore the book. but let me bring two things forward from this. , franklin's prior experience in london, and during the french and indian war led him to foresee sooner than most of the others, most of the delegates, the need for undertaking to fundamental

reforms, which washington joined him in. first, he consistently spoke and thought in terms of america rather than of the colonies. believing that the british could only be defeated and liberty only secured through a united effort. this was the first editorial cartoon ever drawn in america by franklin. having pushed the albany plan of union during the french and indian war, franklin introduced a similar draft constitution for the colonies in july of 1775. it ends up not being adopted, they go the articles of confederation that were too weak but we will get to that. clearly, federal nature with each colony retaining control over matters peculiar to it, franklin's draft held concepts that he later pushed at the constitutional convention. including apportionment representation in congress, and centralize power over

interstate commerce or colonial commas, war, peace, foreign affairs, western lands, he is a great leader and the need for the frontier. such domestic matters is that necessary to the general welfare. these would become exactly the same issues, that by the end of the war washington also embraced and he wrote his final great document as a general before stepping down. this circular letter to the state where he said this article of confederation isn't working, we have chaos. and the same issues, because they worked with franklin, the same issues franklin raised he raised in a circular letter to the state. which would eventually lead into the concert constitutional convention. second, while many patriots blinded by faith in their cause, believe that citizen soldiers quickly vanquish hireling army, frankly sobered by experience dealing with obstinate british leaders foresaw a long war.

some are soldiers and part-time militia could not win such a war. only a unified discipline force. yet, as commander of troops leaving boston, not only did washington face the daunting task of transforming volunteer militiamen from various colonies into a single continental army, he had to do so knowing that most of the men he inherited at boston had signed on only to the end of 1775, confronted with an army with professional soldiers, franklin and washington knew that there army needed to be reconstituted on a more permanent basis with the men serving for the duration. as congress came around to this view, once the militia commission began expiring with the british still embedded in boston, it is signed rank into multiple committees. charges with forming the army working with washington to do this. this work is what brought him back in contact with washington with various

meetings during the war. now of course, they continued to work -- then franklin get sent to europe to be the chief diplomat after the declaration of independence. and there, their work came more important. because washington knows he can only win with the forte of the french. at times, during the revolutionary war, most of our soldiers did not even have shoes, and many did not have shirts. franklin had to negotiate shoes, shirts, guns, cannons, and ships from the french. and money to pay the soldiers. the last three years the war the soldiers didn't get paid. it was only the french money that allowed it. and then here range for rochambeau and the french army to come over, the navy took above her, the final victory yorktown was a coordinated effort with more french troops surrounding yorktown than american troops. in the french navy outside all

of which franklin and washington had coordinated. they had to work closely together, indeed franklin served as a vetting agent for washington to see what foreign soldiers would help. so von steuben, polanski, or lafayette, all that it first with franklin and franklin wrote them notes to washington saying, it's up to you whether you want him, but this mental health. this man will be a good man. so the three key, and you could add some others, all came via franklin to washington. now, let me jump ahead. i could tell plenty more about the revolution. but let me jump ahead to the constitutional convention. her before even began : :

will eventually work their way into the constitution. the two leading delegates because of their stature were washington and franklin. and when washington arrived in philadelphia, as soon as he

drops his bags, franklin is now 80 years old. after drops his bag he goes immediately to meet with franklin and goes to franklin's house. they meet regularly during those constitution convention because they know, together because of their stature, keys to its success. they both had been pushed for having the constitutional convention. the first two states to call for a constitutional convention for washington's virginia and franklin's pennsylvania. in addition to countless lesser additions and alterations, turning the virginia plan which had been developed ahead of time into a frame constitution required major compromises or innovations, each of which engaged the talent of franklin and washington. it shows how they worked together and also had their differences. foremost among these was the

so-called great compromise. restructuring congress to have a proportionally representative popularly elected house of representatives and the senate with equal representation for each state. although franklin favored a popular and elected legislature and washington favored a popular elected lower house with proportional to the states population and then it choosing a proportional more easily senate. so when both cases proportional representation based on population, franklin was one of the first to realize that wasn't going to fly. they weren't going to get the small states to go alone. he foresaw the final compromise earlier than anyone else, and helped to broker it. indeed, while led by franklin's

washington virginia and franklin's pennsylvania, a majority of delegation supported proportional representation in both houses, a minority from the small states demand equal representation and threatened to scuttle any deal without it. this was a fight over principle with practical implications. the contest full representation was not finally resolved for two months. taking the measure of both sides, it tended to bring people together. franklin shown here in a picture in the u.s. capitol how he worked together, that's franklin's gardens where he would bring delegates together including washington to try to work out the sort of deals and washington was a key compromise as well. they worked very closely together. franklin said at the convention, if proportional representation takes place, the small states contended their liberty will be in danger. if an equal equality of votes, the large states say my will be

digit. we are met here to do something. franklin urged the convention to act like a carpenter who when friendly a table from planks of uneven parts takes a little from both and makes a good joint. the result was our senate and house resulted. indeed, after finally working the deal was washington when it was all dead stopped and nobody would -- we have two-point that the committee. the committee depict included franklin and moderates who could work out something and come back with that compromise, and then washington got behind it and the compromise passed. but otherwise there wouldn't have been the constitution. as the delegates pushed on debate over the presidency, the second big issue, consumed more time at the convention than anyy of the topic and was not resolved to the end.

these people were living in the shadow of a dictatorial british monarch and they had no experience with creating an elected leader. having agreed to begin working to the virginia but the delegates reached its resolution on the executive on june 1. these call for national executive chosen by congress, like a parliamentary democracy, and besides the general authority over executing national laws is stated this officer ought to enjoy all the executive rights invested in congress by the confederation. or those extensive executive rights included all those once held by the british monarch come later vested in congress, the provision gave vast powers to the president which meant one thing when the president was chosen by congress, but quite another thing when you later innovated an electoral college

and separate election of president it beyond extruding laws, they can help direct authority over war and peace, the military come for the first, point officers and judges and cranking parts. since the articles of confederation led to these powers in congress they might go the executive under the virginia plan. then again they might not. the resolution was frustratingly vague on this. perhaps because washington, this is a drawing at the convention we look at the convention pickups because washington was sitting among them when the delegates reached the resolutions that all fell silent. after a brief comment by supporters of a strong executive, a considerable pause ensued and the chair asked if the delegates were a two pass the provision. comment from washington's delegation no one seemed inclined to cross the great washington. washington's equal, and this is fiction franklin during the convention, and never wanted a virgo franklin wrote the silas emphasizes the structure of the executive is of great importance. the urged delegates to deliver

their sentiments before the question was put. that's a quote. these -- this comments burst the dam at the date flooded the room for four days with the discussion still raging, franklin said to us fellow delegates with reference to washington of the presidency, the first man put in the home will be a good one. nobody knows what will come afterwards. the executive will always be increasing, as elsewhere, until it ends. favoring the weak executive, a one point another during the debate franklin advocated circumcising the presidency with term of its and an advisory council by limiting the veto power and adding provisions for impeachment and removal from office. as franco put it at the convention, it would be best to provide in the constitution for the regular punishment of executive with its misconduct should deserve it and for his honorable acquittal when he

should be unjustly accused. washington, for his part,, consistently supported a strong executive and carried most of the states with it. the third congress compromise the course you all know about is famously involved slavery. let me say that when. that splits franklin and washington. let me get to the constitutional convention. surveying the final product evolved from the virginia plan that this man it introduced, edmund randolph in washington's neighbor george mason warned delegates to such a constitution with its vaguely defined a clearly in gross presidency and fundamentally reconstructed senate would and either in monarchy are tyrannical aristocracy. they both voted against it. franklin expressed similar concerns throughout the proceedings, and they thought he was going to join them. and by joining them, scuttle the

constitution because of his authority. but in part due to his trust in george washington as the first president and a part because he believed in in a stronger fedel union was absolute essential, that is, the alternative of doing nothing was worse. the accepted the final draft. his lingering worries may account for his widely quoted answer to the grand mode of pennsylvania high society elizabeth powell which allegedly asked him after the convention ended if they created a republic or a monarchy. he replied, a republican, if you can keep it. riddled with compromise and here is james mason, washington's neighbor and old friend who never spoke to again after this, mr. mason again, riddled with these compromises at core, this was washington's constitution. especially with respect to the

presidency. after the convention approved to come he declared, washington declared in the aggregate is of the best constitution that could be obtained, in particular washington defended the powers given to congress and quote no more than our indispensably necessary to perform the functions of good government. and never gathered the broad authority conferred on the president even after lafayette, his beloved lafayette, writing to and from france singled out quote those extensive powers of the executive as one of only four points along with no bill of rights, no guarantee of jury trial, and no presidential term limits question by european philosophers who have reviewed the document. in his reply washington gave grounds only on the bill of rights in gear to jury trial by suggesting that those in due course amendments could provide for. franklin shared at the federalist concerns over presidential power and wanted a more democratic constitution,

endorsed the final draft is better than nothing. quote i agree to the constitution with all its faults come he told fellow delegates and the major prepared speech delivered at the conventions last day, because i think a general government is necessary for us. there is no form of government that what may be a blessing to the people if well administered or a bane if poorly administered. franklin understood the division splitting the convention and opting to support whatever compromise could produce a workable federal government. if the states met again, he warned his fellow delegates, it would only be for the purpose of cutting one another's throats. well, with a nod to washington, franklin expressed his faith that the constitution, and encoding, is likely to be well administered for a course of years, yet that at the time predicted that it would, not

may, but with indian despotism. as of the forms have done before, when the people shall be so corrupted as to need this body government. a few weeks later washington said virtually the same thing in a private letter to his nephew who would later become a justice of the supreme court when he wrote that popular government works only so long as the people have virtue. franklin and washington embraced the constitution because it realized their long-held ambition for a fortified federal government with consolidated authority over commerce, defense, the frontier and taxation. washington secured a strong independent presidency that franklin saw was overly monarchical. coming from large states and fundamentally nationally minded, neither washington or franklin favored the senate with two

members from each state bubble accepted it as a necessary compromise. seven delegates including washington also scored critical safeguards for slavery that many northern delegates including franklin hoped would fail. it tells much about their rational pragmatism and faith in a republican virtue that despite its compromises, franklin and washington so fully accepted the constitution and worked so hard to get it ratified. with franklin also working for washington to be that first president. let me go back briefly to that compromise over slavery that i skipped over but i didn't skip over in the book at the time, and i bring it back up in the last closing encounter. slavery was one matter that unbridgeable he divided franklin and washington. just as he became the subject as we all know 70 years later for the state department that the court so long to knit together. coming from the south and

knowing full well the issues divisiveness temporizing slavery was nothing new for washington. it was his practice. born into a slaveholding family, washington owned over 100 slates and control nearly 200 more from his white dowry. during and after the revolution critics that slavery from quaker abolitionists to as much love military aid lafayette, and also hamilton. pleaded with washington did announce the institution publicly, release set an example by freeing his own slaves. while the sometimes sympathize with such use in private, he always equivocated. meanwhile, the number of his own slaves increased, he never forget any of them during his lifetime and he pursued those that ran away. those inhuman bondage who knew his private face never so washington as a liberator, and many of them tried to escape whenever the british troops got

near during the revolutionary war. not so franklin. since taking the reins of the pennsylvania abolition society in the spring of 1787, during his second term as governor of pennsylvania, he served three terms in that role between the war and the constitutional convention. franklin had assumed the ever more prominent position criticizing the slave trade and urging emancipation. he pleaded with influential slaveholders such as virginia governor edmund randolph, washington's first attorney atty general, to free their slaves and urge new hampshire governor john langdon to stop the states merchant shippers from participating in the slave trade. franklin hosted both men in his home during the convention and felt free to press them on the issue. his strategy on slavery which he clearly expressed was to bring the southern states into a a fortified federal union under the constitution and then have the government work toward

abolition. he didn't wait long. his final assault on slavery took the form of a petition to congress in 1790 that he signed as president of the pennsylvania abolition society. declaring quote, that equal liberty was originally the portion and is still the birthright of all men. he called upon the members of congress quote, just after the very verge of the powers vested in you for discouraging every species of trafficking. paraphrasing the constitution he wrote, quote, those powers included promoting the welfare and securing the blessings of liberty to the people of the united states. though its blessings are rifled to be administered without distinction of color to all descriptions of people. he supported this petition in the press. he was an able writer, of course, with a slashing satire of slaveholders defense of the institution.

this drew on his newspaper background and history of assuming fictional guidance such as richard saunders and poor richards almanac and simon do good, to make his point. here writing under the pseudonym of an algerian divine that everyone knew was really franklin. here he took on a georgia congressman james jackson who delivered a major speech in the two weeks that congress would stop cold debating franklin's petitions. an order in mocking jackson speech against the fsi petition can franklin had mohammed abraham, this algerian divine, ask regarding white europeans been enslaved in great numbers in north africa what is so beautiful in their present condition? is the condition it worse by the falling into our hands? no. here they are brought into a land where the scent of islamism

is for the flight and shines in supplied and that the opportunity of making themselves acquainted with the true doctrine and thereby saving their immortal souls. now, modern satire relies on cultural relativism, and your franklin displayed his modernity. while serving as we take care to provide them with everything, he said about arabs and the european slaves. the laborers in their own country, as i'm informed, are large and close. this speech confirm that the koran condemns slavery in passages franklin directly from versions that was cited by in his speech to congress. slaves serve your masters with cheerfulness. no reader could mistake franklin's meaning. washington privately fumed, denouncing franklin's intervention as, this is about a

strong of or a word as washingn would use, unkindly. now, washington's only decisive act against slavery came in freeing his own by his will. delaying it of death reveal his intention of freeing his slates and then postponing the release until his widow died drained the activist potential political and social significance. trusted aides like lafayette and henry lauren from south carolina or alexander hamilton from new york, and prominent abolitionists including virginia quaker robert pleasants urged washington to act earlier, ideally during the idealistic fever of the american revolution when it might have made a difference. once dad can washington could neither explain his motives nor present his final act as a model for other slaveholders. even his wife who owned most of the slates at mount vernon as her dour property did not follow his lead and kept the children

allegedly sired by her father, her half sisters and her, her grandchildren as slaves. southern slaveholders easily dismiss washington's deathbed act in northern abolitionists struggled to give it meaning. no one can know what might happen at the two icons of the revolution, tranfour, stood together against slavery at the nations the nation stoutly. certainly some other contemporary thought it could have made a difference. as it happened, they split over the issue and within the nation. washington in seven states retain their slaves, franklin and northern states rejected the institution. virginia abolitionist robert pleasants when mentioned before closed his 1784 letter to washington with a warning, notwithstanding thou now receive the trivets appraise some ungrateful people, the time is coming when all action will be weighed in on ballots and undergo an impartial examination, when consistent

then we did appear to posterity should be recorded that the great general washington would keep a number of people in absolute slavery who are by nature entitled to freedom as much to freedom as himself. the same test that he puts out applies to all founders. i would contend despite their flaws, franklin and washington have held up better than most leaders of any age. there is was the founding partnership that launched a nation. over the years, harsh a harsh s of franklin a focus on his promotion of middle-class virtue, the middleman was glorious was who is not labori, he wrote in a arch typical for riches all -- poor richards almanac. generations of americans took franklin to heart and credited

them as their way to wealth. just as surely generations of intellectuals from edgar allen poe f. scott fitzgerald mocked franklin as a pedestrian profit of pragmatism. yet franklin was a man of many faces who as author hidden behind masks ranging from his first, the weedy widow, to his last, the arabs labor, mohammed, judging franklin solely from his richard saunders guide, failed to do him justice. washington is much the same. he did not wear multiple masks that he so carefully cultivated the firm face of republican virtue that he once famously cautioned the great partridges hilbert stewart who drew the painting that is on your one dollar bill quote, my countenance never yet betrayed my feelings. this aspect of washington's personality can make it

difficult to see behind his public image. as it is to look beyond franklin's multiple guises. the pennsylvania printer and the virginia painter appeared to december the summer to making a lasting friendship, especially since the former pose as a man above the people and the latter as one above them. yet focusing on their distinct public images, obscures their fundamental similarities. hard-working and entrepreneurial, franklin and washington had successful business careers outside government and never viewed themselves primarily as politicians. both prospered as colonists and supported royal rule until realizing that britain would never extend basic english rights to americans. jealous of their liberties, they turned against the crown and never looked back.

each nurtured lifelong relationships with both men and women. natural leaders, people trusted them and they trusted other people. both men listened more than they talked. compromised on means to secure inns, relied on others, gave credit to others, sacrificed for the common good, and never ever wavered on principle. and both were reformers, franklin compulsively so. he saw problems and try to fix them. franklin's fixes ranged from mechanical to moral lightning rods and bifocals to constitutions and popular philosophy. washington's included constitutions of course but also important agricultural reform, shaped by the enlightenment, franklin and washington shared a republican ideology and a

progressive faith every light on human reason and divine providence rather than traditional ways and establish dogmas. they sought truth and accepted facts. life could get better, they maintained. there's did. as the old order collapsed around them, they crafted a better one to replace it. one that has lasted for over two centuries. they did not see it as perfect and never thought it would last forever. if the people allowed it, franklin will become even the constitution for all its virtues would lead to tyranny with the president serving as he called the constitutional convention, the feed is for the king. example franklin and washington however shows what individuals can do in times of faction, fracture, and failure. to address problems and improve the state of affairs. we are not driven by fear the

legendary broadcast journalist edward edward r. murrow would later say about americans, if we dig deep in our history. and our doctrine and remember that we are not descended from fearful men. he surely had the likes of washington and franklin in mind. and so at the onset of world war ii, the war that made edward are more famous, in his speech a resolute franklin delano roosevelt quoted franklin, those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety. franklin was more than a pennsylvania printer. washington much more than a planter. they were larger-than-life american originals. whose partnership in revolutionary times laid the foundation for the world's first continental republic, which has lasted for nearly 250 years.

each recognized the others goodness and greatness. and viewed one another as partners in the fight for liberty. others saw this, too. despite their critics, franklin was elected to the states highest office unanimously, twice. in washington elected to his nations highest office unanimously, twice. central to the republican conceptions of service, both men willingly relinquished their public station to return to their private positions. indeed, both preferred private life to public power. yet, they were and are the two indispensable americans. franklin and washington, the founding partnership. thank you. [applause] >> thank you very much. we have time for some questions.

>> please wait until i bring the microphone. >> i would be happy. i wrote a lot more than was in this talk. >> as a professional historian, you just remain in all that weird guys like this in the right place at the right time? >> i do. but both of them, they have to listen to what they said. both of them, we think of franklin as what we think about his religious views and whatever we think about washington, neither were conventional christians. but both believed there was some divine providence. they both believe that god or the divine separated, created america is something you under the sun. and they both were children of the enlightenment, and as were gouverneur morris or edmund

randolph or john hancock, you can just keep naming these people who are central to this role, , thomas jefferson, samuel adams, john adams. quite a laundry list -- abraham baldwin from here in georgia. and so yes, it is impressive. i think people rise to the occasion. they had gone through the crucible of the war and especially in the south. that was a real crucible. and tempered by that, they had a vision for something special, and they brought together tremendous insight and degraded -- but they were not flawless. they themselves recognized this electoral college got its problems and ascended, some of the structures they had problems with. some of them they did that support. franklin wanted the direct election of the present, for example, as did james wilson and governor morse from

pennsylvania, alex and hamilton from new york. they had their differences, but they realize something was necessary and they were committed to creating this country and he did a pretty good job. >> thank you for being here at the atlanta history center. my question is, do you think if ben franklin was younger then washington might've included in his cabinet or administration? >> i think it franklin had been younger, both washington and franklin would have both each served president. they were larger-than-life. you look at them. look at them. here in georgia the first thing we did after the revolution was create the college, the first called pritikin state college. after the revolution and we named it franklin college. it wasn't the university of

georgia. the whole thing was franklin college. when tennessee was come into the union original applied as the state of franklin. look around the country and most states have both a franklin county to this day, , franklin county at a washington county. these people were larger-than-life originals. if you look at, and aye at great length in this, if you look at the ratification debates, in every state, in every debate, in every newspaper article, the constant refrain of the federalist was, well, if franklin and washington designed this, or franklin and washington are for this for transit, whatever order they put it, how can it not work? these are two people we trust. they had this stature but, of course, franklin at the time of the constitution convention he was over 80. he had just completed, well, he was still in his third term as

governor, comes back from france and is elected governor of pennsylvania. he served three terms. he makes joe biden look young. [laughing] and he remained as sharp as a tack, or i could say mayor bloomberg look young. but he was in no position to be president at that age. he ends up only surviving one term. it would have been a teamwork otherwise, but franklin was 100%, more than that, as much as you can be behind washington. he had grave doubts about the constitution by the tremendous faith in george washington as the first leader. he pushed for ratification. pennsylvania becomes a first large state to ratify. virginia the last large state, both critical to success. and through it all he's pushing washington to be president. there was any doubt in his mind who had to be president. that was the situation but age was a factor because franklin

was literally a generation older than washington. this is back when people didn't live as long as they do now. thank you. >> is a true we did not finish repairing our debt back to france after the revolutionary war wax and secondly, if we ended up turn our back on the french and trading with the british, which led to the quasi-war, why did we do that? >> good questions, and i'll have to direct you to a different book i wrote, the magnificent catastrophe, with dealing with it. but washington and franklin both, if you read washington's farewell address as president, he really warns about two things. he warns against partisanship and he warns against entangling alliances with foreign countries. franklin felt exactly the same

way. franklin came back to pennsylvania. the reason why he was willing to serve as governor when he was in his mid-\70{l1}s{l0}\'70{l1}s{l0} was because the state was being torn apart by two parties, and he was the one person who both elected unanimously that both sides accepted as an arbitrator. as a result one of the two states that his successful during that time is pennsylvania thanks to franklin's leadership. he thought there should be a larger union. new york was the other successful stick. georgia was not. george was very much a failed state. they were printing money like crazy and was massive inflation in georgia. there were problems in a lot of states. those problems help lead to not repaying france totally. then the revolution came in france and hamilton argued, with some grounds, this isn't the

government we borrowed money from. this is different government, ever useful argument. [laughing] and he argued the same thing with mccain to continuing to support france, that this isn't the government we have an alliance with. washington used his power under the constitution to aggregate the treaty. only congress can make a treaty, has to approve it, ending a treaty, washington claim, i can do all by myself. so we did. he ended that treaty. but franklin as a negotiator when he was a delicate, when he was working over as ambassador to france, he was constantly paying the french against even the english, outgoing deal with them, or the dutchman whatever. they were both i guess to use a phrase, they considered the interest of their country first. they needed to cut a niche for

america at a a time when we wea struggling little country up on the edge of the european world, and france and england were the two superpowers. they were both negotiating between those two and washington, because he lived longer and was president, ended up doing those items you suggest. that was the reason, because that was by then and america's self interest. any other questions? >> thank you very much for your extremely scholarly depiction of how these gentlemen cooperated, certainly in today's age we need a little more of that. did you find any fundamental differences that they were unable to reconcile in your scholarship? >> well, slavery was one area where they -- though they talked about them frankly, they talked about those differences frankly. franklin was pushed at the

constitutional convention, he was president of the abolition society, to push to end slavery. or that the constitution -- he decides will never get a constitution to do that. he shoveled off -- it appears he shoveled off his criticisms to slavery to gouverneur morris. they sat next to each other at the convention. instead, bided his time. so there was a place that they differed. they differed somewhat over the power of the presidency because franklin had written the constitution of pennsylvania which had a weak executive. but when you had a strong leader like franklin it was very effective. washington, like at the chaos of the revolutionary war thought, looking at europe, thought we needed a strong leader. there were differences but they met together, worked them over and, of course, we saw franklin

push for washington to be the first president, despite issues they differed on. they basically agreed on so much more than they differed. they believe in unity. they believe in a unified government. they both were a nature compromisers. in the sense never compromises on principle. they believe in liberty, they believed in property rights, they believe in american independence. they believe in american destiny. they believed in settling the frontier but they realize to get anything done in the government of the people, which is how washington describes it in his last inaugural address, government of the people, and you don't have monarch they can order around. we need to compromise, work together on means to secure essential ends. and since they both had the spirit and they both did like, they both took counsel and they both didn't crave credit, they

both willingly -- franklin almost compulsively so, tried to share credit with others washington, too. that was her nature. that allowed them to work together. there's another element. franklin was a humorist. he was a storyteller. a very clever storyteller. some of his stories and observations might be a little bit on the off-color side. washington was not a storyteller. he was very stern but he loved to joke, especially a little bit of an off-color joke. while franklin was a back slapper, and i can imagine washington ever slapping a back, the pairing worked quite well and they both loved books. they both had things in common. they both were very proud of their houses and like to show

them off. they both were wonderful entertainers. franklin didn't used to drink but he learned to drink wine in france and came back as an expert at one. washington always loved wine and then you how to share that, share their commonalities. they were the type of people who like other people and got along with other people and really had lasting friendships. that is a wonderful trait and a special trait they shared together. so that helped them to work together, despite their differences. yes. >> i know that washington was a land speculator from a very young age. >> yes. >> was franklin also a land speculator? and the fact that after the french and indian war, the british, as part of the peace

agreement, drew online down the crest of the appalachian mountains and said that no more settlers could go west of that line. now, this seems to me it had to be a big motivator to the revolution because of these two men and many others that were speculators wanted to sell their land that they had speculated in and wanted settlers to be able to go across that line, and they were quite determined about it. >> i agree with you that the proclamation of 1763 by the british contributed as much as anything, certainly the stamp act, the tea act, they were all critical as well, but removing the frontier was critical. and i wouldn't say it was just

the land speculators. you can read the writings, the private writings of washington and the public writings of franklin, and both of them believed in the frontier. washington was much more a specular. he did not know he is going to hit him in turkey thought his land basically the land in virginia, mount vernon was going to go to his older brother because back then everything in virginia was passed down to the oldest son and it was just the fortuitous event that both his older brothers died that ended up getting vernon. and thereafter with mount vernon brought even more money into the project. so we thought he is going to have to make his way on the frontier. franklin also had left boston where he was an indentured servant, fled illegally, went to the frontier or the founding period of pennsylvania and made his fortune on what was to him sort of a frontier.

and became a regular sleep wealthy as a picky also invested some in frontierland, but the more important thing was they both conceived of the frontier as essential to what made america different. you can see this in their writings. you can see this in the writings of of the people at the time. they believed that what made americans levers of liberty, what made them open to the improvement is they could always go to the frontier and start over. they could invest but they could also move there themselves like i daniel boone. it was the option of the frontier keeping the openness of the west that made america different than europeans. jefferson would pick it up. the yeoman farmers and the frontier with the american future. it was the source of liberty to these people, and they believed that taking away the frontier was just going to turn americans into a bunch of serfs.

and so they both believed deeply that america needed a frontier. so not only did that help lead to the revolution, the proclamation of 1763, even though virtually the entire war was fought on the coast, and america had done nothing to the frontier, when franklin negotiated the peace, he insisted on giving the frontier all the way to the mississippi. he pushed for that and he said you don't want to give it to friends, better to give it to -- he is all these arguments because to him, he would not agree -- he put that essential. we will not agree to peace without, and it wasn't just the liberty of the 13 colonies on the coast but it was also the french are going all the way to the mississippi. and so washington and franklin both dp believed in the front tier as fundamental to america. -- deeply believed.

>> as someone in the mid-20s, when you speak more to the formative years, the growth of these two pioneers, specifically growth of the mind, of habits? >> that's a wonderful question and i tried to cover that in fashion in the book because who they were in the 20s and in their late teens made them what they were later. franklin goes off, leaves boston, breaks his contract and start his own business. worked or others. he learned a trait already as an indentured servant as a printer. first to go to new york, finds there's no need for printer there and then goes on to pennsylvania by he's always driven. he's a driven -- he starts -- need of them have a formal education. he forms clubs to help him how

to learn. he learns foreign languages. he was a driven man of self-improvement. he used to have contests with people to learn foreign languages. he knew what it would make to make other people respect him. he would carry his own roles of paper himself down the street in philadelphia because he would see that all these quick emergence and bankers would see him working hard rather than have somebody else -- he didn't need to carry it himself but he knew what he needed to make his way to wealth. he explained that and wrote about it. he built key friendships with important people. washington did exactly the same thing. he did know he's going to inherit wealth. he made friendships with the most important people around

like the fairfax is picky became a surveyor for them because he realized he could make money, as you point out as a specular front tier, so we learned surveying and went out to the front too. he could have taken a job along the coast that was safer but no, he was camping out in the woods surveying land. because then he could do that under the import of the fairfax is glad he land-grant, largest land grant in virginia for the west you could also check out what was the best properties that he surveyed and acquired them himself. they were both driven entrepreneurial in nature. both -- were not going to do this alone, were going to do this working with others, and so that's their way to wealth. franklin ends up writing it up in the book, the way to wealth, which he comes incredibly popular. some of the richest people in american history like carnegie and james harper and other

credited that book as their own way to wealth. so yes, they were driven people who both wanted to do good. they believed in virtue. they believed in helping others. they both joint the masons and went up and became leader of the masons and the relative states because the masons offered in connection with others, but they both were extraordinarily hard to build their businesses. thank you. thank you for the questions. [applause] >> thank you all very much for coming tonight. as the way to wealth as franklin said, knowledge is the best knowledge pays the best interest. tonight with a 25% discount on books. so the do good discount is in effect. come buy a book. good night. thank you very much for coming. [applause] [inaudible conversations]

>> you are watching tv, 48 hours of nonfiction authors and books and the weekend on c-span2. c-span2. here some programs to watch out for. >> find more information on your program guide or by visiting booktv.org. >> on her weekly author interview program afterwards cal thomas offered his thoughts on whether the united states will remain a superpower. here's a portion of the show. >> it used to be when you had an

election, the losing side would go lick its wounds come have media, how do we agree to our message, how do we win next time? now it's how to bring the sky down? this person down. they were arguing about impeachment, the democrats were, even before the election and certainly a day or two after some of the courts from some the more radical members of congress. this poisonous atmosphere and its people said during this recent impeachment fiasco,, impeachment was supposed to be rare, and now i fear the republicans get back in control both houses of congress and there's a democrat president, they're going to go the same route and that will polarized and poison the political atmosphere even more than it is now which is bad enough. >> to watch the rest of this program and find other episodes of "after words" visit our website,