bookstores are working to provide remote services for their customers through online sales, curbside pickup and local deliveries. many like politics and prose in washington dc are offering virtual author events during crowd cast. the country's book publishers are currently still fulfilling their schedule of new publications but may delay the release of certain titles. book tv will continue to bring you new programs and publishing news. also watch all our archived programs anytime at booktv.org. >> welcome to the commonwealth club of california for our program tonight. just a quick housekeeping, if you have anything that makes noises, cell phones, beepers, husbands, whatever, just put them on silent. we are recording this for tv and podcast so we appreciate the non-beeping. and now i would like to turn it over to our cohost and the

person whose name is on the show,michelle me out . >> thank you so much john. welcome to the michelle me out show. it is your a through z covering the lgbt and everyone in between. our special guest is the founder of the free radical project, a global network of former extremists who were the radicalizing others, trying to lead the movement by providing counseling. he's an and in any award winning producer, proud father of two and an author and here to talk about his new book breaking hate : confronting the new culture of extremism is christian picciolini. welcome to the show. [applause] >> so this book and it's your second book and wow, i flew through the 200+ pages so

quickly, like a hungry child afterschool . unand because i was just craving some of this truth but before we dive into all these truths the book does share stories from other individuals that you encounter whether direct or indirect and through your work. i think we should start with telling your story and how that encounter with clark martel lead you to the chicago area skinheads, america's first organized neo-nazi group. >> thank you for having me and it's a privilege to be here and an honor but it's a privilege because i know often times people who don't look like me, who have a darker skin color sometimes don't get the same second chances i do so i wantto acknowledge that . i was born on the south side of chicago to italian immigrant parents who worked very, very hard and growing up i didn't see them very often.

they were working seven days a week, 14 hours a day so i grew up isolated from them. and was really searching for a sense of identity, community and purpose like most of us do and i found it in an alley in 1987. while i wwas smoking a joint and clark martel, the man who recruited me walked up to me, pulled a joint from mymouth, looked me in the eye and said that's what the communists and the jews want you to do to keep you dos file. at 14 i didn't know what a communist was. i didn't know if i met a jewish person and i didn't know what the word dos i lament . but that was the first time i felt somebody saw me. and really drew me in and i didn't know it at that time but i had just been recruited at 14 years old to america's first neo-nazi skinhead group

and clark martel was america's first neo-nazi skinhead leader. and although it didn't sit with me in my dna, i wasn't raised as a racist, my parents were immigrants who came over from italy in the 60s and they were often victims of prejudice so it wasn't how i was raised so it was foreign to me but i was willing to swallow the things i didn't understand but my reward was this sense of agency. this kind of brotherhood, this community that i had joined that i was lacking and that felt like it empowered me until i recognize how toxic it was and i stayed in fort 8 years until i was 23. and i think every day i was in i had questions about what i was involved in but it became increasingly hard to leave because i was afraid of going back to the nothingness

that i had 14 and i can say i had a coach, a ballerina truth, anybody else walked up to me in that alley at 14 i would have gone with them it just didn't happen . >> it would have been a great ballet career. >> you don't want to see me dance, trust me. >> and you of course did leave. can you tell us what did it for you? >> i was in for great eight years and i don't think there was a day i didn't question what i was involved in at least very quietly. but i also met people along the way that challenged me, not in an aggressive way, not through debate or telling me i was wrong but through a lived experience and getting to know them. i opened a record store in 1995 to sell racist music that i was making and

importing but i also sold a small section of hip-hop music and punk rock music and heavy metal music never expecting anybody to come in and buy those things. it was just me going to city halland the saying i want to opena record store . i couldn't tell them i was selling nazi music and people came in to shop for it, people of color . people from the lgbtq community and it was the first time i had an interaction with people outside my social circle and i recognized quickly once that happened that i actually respected them more, like them more and wanted to be around them more than the people i surrounded myself with for 8 years and eventually i became embarrassed to sell that music, pulled it from the shelves and it was 75 percent of my revenue so i had to close the store and that gave me an opportunity to disengage from the movement. i should also say my wife and children had left me by that point because i was involved.

my wife, we got married at 18, had our first son at 19, second son at 21 and she never was supportive of what i was involved in, she hated it and i failed to prioritize my family over the movement even though i had this sitting in front of me this identity, purpose of being a father and a husband i still didn't see it . >> you're going over that fast but in your book your pointing out icp, identity, community and purpose. not the same insane clown posse but talk a bit more about it. it gets to theheart of how someone was able to grab you and pull you into the movement . >> .. >> ..

at some point in o our lives we have to find that. it develops our values. it's the committee were part of, family. so people gravitate towards extremist movements, talk about this in depth in my book, do so because they're searching for unity unity purpose, not hate. the ideology is the final component that defied the locks into place that allows them to then blame the payment someone else. but, of course, it's also tried unity committee purpose and were not all extremists, may be 2020 we kind of art, but -- that's a joke. [laughing] but i think what the differentiator is, a search for identity committee purpose but also a broken search where what i call potholes in our life's journey. potholes are traumas and trauma can be 1 million different

things. they canan be of use. it could poverty. it can be the loss of a loved one, grief, divorce. for me it was abandoned meant. i felt abandoned by my pairs but it could also be mental illness, joblessness, poverty. but even privilege can be a pothole. privilege keep this isolated from humidity. that can also detour us. these potholes detours to the fringes where these fringes narratives live and are plenty there. and extremist narrative or extremist behavior can be anything from being a neo-nazi to flying to syria to join isis, to joining a gang, to become a school shooter, even being a drug use. that is a manifestation extremist behavior at a think itself extremism could be suicide. instead of taking your paint out on someone else it's taking out on yourself. if we start to look at why the motivations of why people engage in these extremist behaviors,t e

can learn how to fill the potholes so that we can bring people back. >> we do share all of the stories tiell back into the why. i'll start with you and ask you, you answered it, the why. but any time in the few years that you are a part of -- did they call it cash? >> chicago area skinheads, cash. >> did you ever feel, do you ever feel horrible? did compassion over ever come the ideology that you started believing in or the hate that was poison your mind and your heart? >> yeah, i don't know i felt guilty but it wasn't a i safe place to show that. it was in a place to vulnerable with my peers. i suspect i wasn't the only one who stopped those types of feelings down and embraced the hatred even more so because

there was a reward in that. being a violent, saying violent things was the price of admission. it is what kept us there. what think that this feeling of respect for each other even though there was no respect. we didn't even have self-respect. i really think it's a tough thing to think that people can leave those movements. i know it's hard to believe, maybe if were nice to quote-unquote the bad people, that they might change but i can tell you i felt 300 people disengage and it isn't the compassion they receive when they least expect it for people they least deserve it sometimes. that is most powerful thing i've seen. >> lets begin with story number one in the book, which i think speaks to a lot of the questions that at least i have as as a 38 year old gender nonconforming

woman from stockton, california, and grew up in poverty, and those surrounding me thinking life and now doing this program here at the commonwealth club tryingb to address the political challenges we are facing. the book opens up with a story of cassandra, a young girl from new jersey, who gets a deep into an internet relationship. i'm going to let you tell the story because there's so much of there, at a think you will understand why it would capture some of a mage if that ever hit in the room but especially someone like myself. >> cassandra was a 17-year-old girl when her parents contacted me, which is often the case, a bystander will contact me for help. she was, she is a twin living in new jersey who struggled with social anxiety her whole life wash his sister was very social and t very active. the was the dynamic between them

that was difficult for cassandra to get beyond, but in 2016 she had been recruited by an online boyfriend, a man who, 21-year-old man who said he was from idaho, had blonde hair and blue eyes. and recruited her to be a mouthpiece for propaganda. she was a 17 making holocaust denial videos, pro-white videos online and was getting a significant following of people. and was dating this guy who kept coercing her to do these things. when her parentsth contacted me after about a month or so, my investigation, i discovered her boyfriend was at 21-year-old man from idaho with blonde hair and blue eyes. in fact, it was two people. one being a russian man in st. petersburg who was 31, and another one being a peruvianth

national living not far from here in union city california who were working togetheris essentially to catfish or pretend to be somebody else and forth her into being a girlfriend. they were recruiting of the girls come some as young as 14 by pretending to be the boyfriend. he would steal photos online and videos and send them to her as if they were his. he would strip the audio ofcom record his own audio. she had never seen him, and when her parents contacted me she was very deep in this and i turned -- what it also discovered as part of my investigation and october of 2016 before the presidential election was that they had applied toio thousandsf other internet accounts, social media accounts, that were neo-nazi, pro-trump, anti-hillary but they were all these fake russian troll accounts. of course nobody knew that

effective because we're not talking about that. i turned over 22 gigabytes of information over to the fbi the first week of november before the election. i said i'm not exactly sure what i found what i have these thousands of theno count federal tiger russia, all pro-nazi and pro-trump and anti-hillary but they are not americans stealing this. they are involved with this girl. i think with a problem because i was tracking these accounts and discovered they were changing from these pro-trump pro-nazi accounts to them black lives matter account and they would become feminist account and they became lgbt accounts and the became something else. the goal was gorgeous of flooding. against all these other kinds of accounts they were creating and pullingot and real americans as part of this debate. >> you did realize you literally had stumbled across, not literally but you stumble across what was probably literally the biggest story of the century. >> because about three months

later the fbi and cia came out and said we have discovered russian meddling or influencing on social media through companies like facebook and whatnot. >> i wish the fbi would've done a because he never contacted me back after turn over their information. i thought they thought i was crazy, off the street with that info but it proved to be accurate. i sent an email e-mail that wee helical campaign with that information and the astral information and they give it to them and theyy also didn't repl. >> at least they sent you a request for funds. that's what campaigns do. >> i i wish i could tell he was the truth, but instead what happened was around that time formal organization nonprofit that i was leaving, cofounded under the obama administration had one grid for $400,000 to focus on combating what to present online. patiently waited for the money

and administration changed and the $400,000 grant was rescinded. there were 32 groups that had one as part of this grant. we were the only group focus of white supremacy. everyone else was focus on radical islamve and we were the only group rescinded. we were not given a recent. >> was the reason that they give you for pretty much canceling this grant that you thought you going to get? was it a tweet? >> well, no. a tweet to something else. what i got was an email from the administrator who said i'm sorry, that we have reviewed all the grant winners and we had deemed your organization does not qualify. it was around the same time i have tweeted something to the president which was probably not great. i shared by police about the situation, and actually the date the muslim ban, he announced the

muslim ban that he is going to put that in. i think i said after you or something. -- f you. they tried, the head of the nse at the time her email leaked. the tinnitus of the great first and then he went back and said let's go find information on this group for us just if i take ms. they found that tweet after the fact. >> was there something born to that losing that grant, , the wk you would've done, which was it a lot to do with focusing on internet and a framework around protecting young people to be -- the anti-defamation league cited around 35% increase of extremists, violence or extremist related violence. the southern poverty law center also cited above same about the same percentage of increase in

2017-2018. there something to be said about the rise of extremists related to murders and violence, especiallyle during this administration. hate to correlate it all and point fingers, but i'd love for you to kind of talk about your thoughts on the internet's impact on the rise of extremist activities and white supremacists have ganda. -- pahpa ganda. approaches me of something of that nature. i was a delinquent kid at that time but now we have millions of alienated people who are online their only reality is virtual reality there only connections to other people and chat rooms and these

people that are drawn to these narratives. and from these foreign actors with community and purpose online. it doesn't have to jive with the reality. but unfortunately it is spilling out to the real world. and then attributed to this movement and then there is the whole transnational component that most people are not aware of that this is an american problem and it exist although i have to say never in my lifetime did i ever think what i said 30 years ago would be

coming out of a twitter feed or the person in the highest office and to me that is very scary because they do feel that somebody has their back. that grant that we lost was completely focused with online the radicalization we were ready to launch a network because that is where most people are radicalized and it was pulled for weeks before charlottesville. >>. >> and throughout the book as you keep sharing other stories i was reminded of things in the 1970s there was quite a number of years there are

people did not buy the idea of mind control people of the cold. and with the idea to the program and a lot of the same thing to catch a vulnerable person alienated and alone and hurting in some way to divide the community. and it is a big issue all the things you've been involved in. so are you optimistic we would get over this? >> the tide is rising. we need to be very careful. if we have a problem with white nationalism to say it's

a folks and blown out of proportion sometimes multiple requests per day from parents and people involved in these movements. never in a life have i got a request from a ten -year-old ki kid. but i'm getting that now. we have seen a rise in violence and propaganda distribution on college campuses. and they know which narratives to pitch. and to be very effective while we are still debating if there is a problem. and that has been forged for decades. but then on the three-piece suit.

but he actually lived in moscow 1999 through 2003. that he saw blooded his apartment to another supremacist they have been building these alliances for a long time. and that base which they call themselves the base a little translation for al qaeda there is white g hardware they tried to take those tactics of how they kill they drive their car cars, small groups the propaganda video. >> the narrative in the mainstream media in of which mental illness is cited for the reasons why in the book

and with that autistic spectrum disorder and that after serving two tours but it is a little dangerous to fault and point fingers and on the dangers of that. >>. >> off to the alienation and disconnection from society. the bullying to establish intimate relationships with friends and things like that. and 75 percent of the people are dealing with an emotional disorder everything from

depression to bipolar and schizophrenia. and those that don't become extremist but we have to break that equivalent. and those multiplayer online video games. for who knows where in the world taking them from the call of duty scenario and then the n-word gauging of people respond to that and then sometimes that's from a nervous five -year-old. and those that respond positively to a smaller group and then it ramps up from there. what we need to understand the

bridges and roads are fine but we have our people in the best things we can do is offer early adolescent mental health care. to make sure people are set up with opportunities. and as adults we have to learn to be vulnerable with our children. that they have to impress and then they will never learn to be vulnerable. and then we need to build up. >> we see these stories of the technological anger. and how people are increasingly communicating mostly through social media.

and to spend more time because the human infrastructure is not there. the individual work you are doing so what about these millions of kids? >> we can do it absolutely. im a guide with that identity and purpose in guiding people and for the ways to fix this we can all do that. so why list the seven steps

that it takes to disengage. i don't even tell people what's wrong or listen for the potholes. and then if i just have to infer that to figure out the motivations. and trying to repair that to offer that positive sense of identity. >> so talking about the evolution how that has changed over since you have left it. and where it is at today.

and i would love to hear your thoughts and with those buzzwords like patriotic. to exercise freedom of speech we don't hate anyone now we are pro- white. [laughter] >> were you reading my mind 15 years old? don't like to use the term outright or white nationalism because those are there marketing terms actually said what can we call ourselves? it is true. back in the eighties and nineties we wanted to scorch the earth. but we call that white pride because we knew we had to do that for those who were too

extreme to alienate the average american racist. because they were patriotic in some cases. we were waving swastika flags. and that is the long wolf concept. don't get tattoos don't shave your head. don't use the same words like the evil jews instead of the global elites because it was a way for us to communicate. and then the average american picked up on it but the whole idea we don't want to alienate the recruiting pool so david duke getting rid of the clan

robe and elected to the house of representatives that really was the beginning of this normalization which people recognized as extreme to make people afraid. >> so the person that came up with the modern look of the polo and the khaki. >> vladimir putin. [laughter] i am not joking. looking back 2012 we see the exact same tiki torches in ukraine during the revolution. we see the exact same imagery and other parts of eastern europe. this was a transplanted plan in fact many of the people who were instrumental had actually trained in paramilitary camps in ukraine which started off

as the neo-nazi militia that was folded into the national guard of ukraine a very important part of the fight of crimea and that is such an important part of the world because if anybody has seen the movie 300 those spartan held off because ukraine is like that for europe. russia really wants to destroy democracy. so that is the entrée in. it's interesting because these neo-nazis are fighting for the ukraine freedom but they are promoted by russian propaganda. >> in the book you start off with a brief history of racism in america going from institutional slavery to be

re-created and jim crow that could be attacked legally but the people who are supporting and enforcing and mobilizing had control over someone else. >> talk about the younger generation it sounds the violence itself is just the goal. what do they want? >> chaos is the goal. excrete - - extremism flourishes in times of uncertainty right now america is a tinderbox the world is a tinderbox of uncertainty where the fires of extremism are prime with millions of 11 - - young people about their future and politics and jobs

the middle class is disappearing and that's a big deal a lot of people feel lost but they interpret the depression somebody else is rising and women are filing one - - finally being heard lgbtq but the people who held up power if they are just equalizing so then you hear about the jews will not replace us it is the whole idea thinking they are losing power. we live in a time if we are not very careful right now about young people in ourselves and in general how we react to losing truth if we lose it then we will have a hard time to recognize again to get it back. we are at a moment that is very dangerous for the whole world to face this dire uncertainty. >> let's go back to sanders

story, if anything go out there and grab a book and skim through so how hard it was are challenging it was for you to take the situation and be supportive of cassandra's parents that you really felt there was nothing they could do they really wanted to help their child. but you went as far to track this guy down and you are here. you found his house and go through all the detective work. we don't all have that kind of time and talent that you have to address these situations if any children are involved in any type of scandal which i don't think a slowing down.

we are in another election year and afraid the practices online the meddling the other person on the other side with a different motive to divide us is here and is happening right now. >> cassandra was objected and i was the only one who knew where he lived sending information to the fbi before she was objected and warned eventually he did abductor but she turned 18 and went off to college and i had to find her. of course with the help of local police in her family. but i could not even describe it to local police they would

not believe me in a million years had i told them. i am not a detective i have to teach myself how to find information as parents be involved in no how to look for things and for signs what should we look for my kid is becoming an extremist the same if they are getting into drugs are they changing their habits have they abandoned the things that they love? all the things we have been taught to look for kids of and getting in trouble over decades it's the same thing. the ideology is the final component. we don't battle that through the ideological process but the public health approach to build resilience to prevent

this from happening we have to do this proactively to make sure the young people are resilient but we are suffering also. so thinking of something very interesting yesterday, talking about their parents and aging gracefully but they have lost their sense of identity and community and purpose. the friends have died moving into our new neighborhood that they are not doing it. is the same thing a young person goes through. maybe if we want to age gracefully need to make sure we have positive identities. >> and 2016 your so desperate to get law enforcement to help. they did kind of even with the standoff you are at his house and trying to ask him to get out of the car by this point cassandra is at the airport with her mom.

you are there to retrieve their things and telling them he is a criminal. there wasn't much they could do if he wasn't willing to get out of the car but there's only so much what law enforcement was willing to do you went to the fbi they have not responded to you, to this day. that is 2016 hours 2020 with another election year because if you were to submit another case similar to cassandra today, do you think the fbi or law enforcement or any political candidate word listen to you? >> i had the privilege to testify to the house of representatives and talk about this very specific problem we are having.

i have developed a better relationship with the fbi although there are still not willing to look at that case but people see me as a conduit that i found this person on mind they are saying awful things they have threatened violence they will send it to me and i will contact the fbi as my duty and they have responded. i think i'm okay to say that with these potential mass shootings those have been forwarded. >> so for anyone listening or watching interested in contacting you. >> i'm easy to find just google ask skinhead i usually come up to the top it's very easy to contact me i am on social media google my name.

>> we will open to the audience for questions. be prepared with your questions we will walk around with the microphone this is being recorded so speak into the microphone. there was an incident with dylan bruce who walked into the african-american church and killed nine individuals. that still very hard incident to talk about what is heartbreaking to add to that the music that influenced is music you created over 25 years ago.

i have a lot of empathy for you and at the same time from what led us here today is why? why are we doing this why are people so angry and so hateful? the question is how do you reconcile that and continue moving forward? >> that was not only devastating to the community and victims and families but a moment i will never forget. that was the tied shifting of our understanding. maybe last year when i first found out but i was doing an interview with a journalist and she showed me a printout of a listing that dylan had made on a white supremacist board and in that posting he

just watched the documentary about skinheads and heard some music and saw a band perform and posted the lyrics to the website. i don't think she knew what she was showing me at the time. but i had to read it three times because it was very familiar the third time i realized they were my lyrics i had written 30 years before. i had influenced him just the few months before he murdered nine people and to think i said something 30 years ago to implement somebody made me physically ill. it was several days before i didn't this is music i cannot scrub from the internet for whatever reason and i have

responsibility for that for those ideas i put out into the world. and how that can influence people and that is part of what drives me to continue to do this work over 24 years but every day i'm driven by the fact i must repair the damage i have caused. i don't know that means but i'm driven by that idea sometimes i reform people are going into communities that i hurt for making amends with actual individuals. something i don't think i will ever be done doing or do i want to trust me i want to be having people out of work but personally my mission is to always repair the harm that i have caused. >> does religion play a role in your life? >> and went to catholic

schools my whole life to out of six high schools i got kicked out of them once another twice so i grew up in very roman catholic italian family. now i consider myself the agnostic. i think we are all like souls and god's body and when we are sick and cannot communicate , the whole body is sick. we need to learn to understand we are a part of that same body. we need to be better towards each other. whether god or society we must do a better job at that. that is we take - - my take. >> your turn. >> speak into the microphone we will have a lot of

questions. >> maybe not the most profound but ever since i first came across you i bought your book but i have to say as the italian-american that would be white enough to be recruited by white supremacist. we are why dish one - - white -ish. [laughter] but i will never imagine so who also does? >> speaking from their perspective to believe in the european heritage. so what is white? and with that power structure

and white supremacy is the false notion that white people are superior. we can tell you from experience they are not superior than anybody. [laughter] not to say they are not smart but to be honest somebody like richard spencer speak to has those prestigious degrees sounds dumber than i did at 14. [laughter] we shouldn't think that they are stupid. so what is white? they need to examine themselves because maybe at one point they were not a part of the power structure.

>> [inaudible] >> they want to keep that power but frequently it so important about people harmed along the way. to fix the nation's potholes to help us develop the future. societies and nations can also have potholes and struggle for identity and community and purpose we have potholes we have never focused on.

>> you talk about the stabilizing america and the groups that fight against each other. i can see how that breeds chaos but what is to be accomplished by playing video games with jimmy who cannot vote and doesn't have access to a gun? playing a really long game? >> guns are pretty easy to get even for a 15 -year-old. they understand that. what they want to do is create more of that uncertainty because extremism flourishes the small percentage that walk into their school and murder people the goal is to distract so talk about influence they

are changing votes but influencing us so sometimes about giving opinions. is this reality but in most cases they know america's open wounds. the fact we have a lot of guns and people die all the time. so we talk about the terrorist group in the truest sense of the word i hope them to disengage and piece by piece i have been to the ukraine and trained in paramilitary camp i did not find out igor until he told me his name was john smith.

so really it is just about creating so much disruption in our country we cannot even decide what to do amongst ourselves. we can get anything done because of this. >> i am a retired police officer. have you had any success of reaching out to the law enforcement community but agitating the song officers? have you thought about that quick. >> absolutely i have a wonderful relationship with law enforcement. i do try to educate them. they don't understand what is happening overseas so it is very very important law enforcement, teachers, psycholot

, anybody dealing with young people really needs to understand what is happening. yes, absolutely at one point i even helped the fbi to develop an intervention program they never ended up using to do that touchy-feely intervention work but this is something when exit for white nationalist but all young people to make sure even the most marginalized communities have access to opportunity and are empowered because it isn't just a solution to defeat extremism for part of crumbling infrastructure. >> thank you for coming tonight. im curious how you excommunicate yourself from

the group it seems like the work now is dangerous have you ever had to deal with threats on your life or your family so what was that like and what it's like now it seems kind of scary. >> yes. thank you for the question. i wish i could tell you when i left in 1996 i told them off and waving my fist at them. no. i ran. i ran away. that happen for almost five years. i didn't have the same beliefs but in finding new friends it was killing me because i had that cancer in me.

not until he actually started telling people i noticed my life was getting better i was getting honest and holding myself accountable for the first time. nobody gets a free pass i hold myself accountable for 24 years and i do believe people need to repair the damage that they have caused that only with the victims but communities to self reflect and understand to fix what they did i get threats almost every day. most or all mine i view hundreds of these events nobody has ever disrupted or attended. here is the thing. other than dad i would be in jail if i stayed.

it is my duty of one of the few people most people don't know how they work or recruit or what happens or the strategies and i feel that's my responsibility to dismantle that. >> thank you for what you do. >> obviously the groups that you mentioned before our very obviously neo-nazi movements what about the alt bright light? >> if we look at white supremacist as the umbrella term there are all different kinds. some will say all to write some will say not that far off and then some groups no holds

barred and they are very happy to tell you about that. but here is the common threa thread, they are all white supremacist they can a themselves what they want, dress differently but ultimately their goal is to marginalize and harm other people. so they had been responsible for at least five deaths in the last two years and probably more that have been thwarted so just to say things in some cases all they drive their car through rallies but the words are harmful the ideas are harmful. and do and up influencing people so all trite or all to extreme they are all still feeding the problem.

so i don't differentiate between them. they are all guilty as far as i am concerned what they are doing. i approach them differently somebody wearing a suit like a skinhead. so i recognize the differences but at the same time i hold them fully accountable. >> maybe i don't know enough or haven't read enough but i am wondering, ultimately who is controlling these different organizations and who is behind all of this? the recipe somebody keeping each of the organizations going. >> it's much less of organizations and individual action. think of movements without leaders were individuals feed off each other and encourage each other with different

camps but the internet changed everything. like a 24 hour all-you-can-eat hate buffet if you are hungry people are feeding off of each other for manifestoes to the christchurch and referencing each other it is a game to be come the high score so what they are aiming for is oklahoma city 168 people were killed including children , timothy mcveigh most people don't know was a white supremacist scene at places like aryan nations like the covenant of the sword and the arm of the lord. and they really aspire to create more damage so there is

all whole idea of acceleration with the movement. they for have forgotten of the idea. what they are now trying to do is accelerate through violence were there is mass chaos with a whole world of scorched because they believe they will survive. it's not about leaders there are leaders and figureheads but it's not about the group structure so much was a pretty small group will wolf terrace. but it's not about reporting to the hierarchy because law enforcement did a wonderful job to infiltrate these groups

and started to take down the leadership they said no more groups we will be a lone wolf we will indoctrinate you and each other but you will not be a card-carrying member or a director to oversee you. it is your responsibility in your job to recruit people and send them off. >> that are influencers, certainly foreign adversaries like russia are promoting these ideas. they are in some cases seeding these ideas. the original website where they started, this is a very, very dangerous group that is kill people. the website where started to recruit americans was founded by a russian man.

he is based right now as we speak in moscow. on that website he was recruiting people to join this, passing bomb making plans, encouraging violence and race war and all these things. these are things that ideologues in our country talking about but they are also handing the flames with other players in the movement. everybody is her own leader essentially. >> speaking of people who belon. to marginalize groups who nevertheless, a white supremacists, i'm interested in your thoughts on stephen miller. i mean, this is a person in their official position who has control of funds and policies. and yet he is a jewish man. some of them are immigrants and just find it very baffling and scary and it just wondering if, i'm wondering where his potholes

were? >> i don't know his specific potholes but i can tell you that if we can step away for for a t and think of an ideological movement, , do know what it is? we think about as as a search r identity community and purpose. i can tell you that i have worked with black neo-nazis. i can tell you i've worked with latino neo-nazis born to latino parents and mexico's cities who are here. i have worked with jewish mothers who their sons are denying the holocaust. they foundol these movements because they've been accepted into them or maybe in other cases they were not accepted into society and that was like a lottery ticket. people pay attention and they were getting our reward. they forgotten who they are and what their history has gone through in some cases because the reward of feeling accepted is greater than the pain.

so to answer your question, my opinion on stephen miller, he is doing some bad stuff and he has the power to do those bad things. things. but there are also other people. there have been outright white nationalists who been fired from the state department once they been discovered as having a podcast or something like that. not try to paint and epidemic but they are everywhere. they are our neighbors, our doctors, our lawyers, our military, our police officers in some cases. just because the jobs are respectable doesn't necessarily mean there are respectable people doing them inec all case. and, in fact, in the '80s we encouraged people as we were encouraging them to disassociate from groups that were very visible. we said get a job, go to the military, get some training, become a cop, one for office, the a teacher. go to with the people we want to recruit are, , and that is whats

happened. >> i was wondering what is the best public response to situations like charlottesville or berkeley? we've had a lot of white supremacists activities. is it ignore them? ..

and they love violence which is why they go to progressive neighborhoods like charlottesville, why they come to berkeley, why they went to skokie illinois, a predominantly jewish neighborhood to march through their . the american nazi party did . it is to elicit a response from us that then will allow them to attack. because they want to paint themselves as the victim which is why they hide behind free speech, which is why they hide behind the constitution and patriotism because those things are hard to attack . even a good argument is like, how do you knock somebody's patriotism? it's not patriotism. theyare the least patriotic people. they want to destroy democracy, they are antigovernment, anti-law-enforcement, they are anti-our values . so somebody like me is easy to spot when they tried to waive an american flag and say we want to protect the

confederate monuments. that's not what they're doing. they go there because it's controversial and they'll be able to identify people who are not white nationalists but are supporting what they're doing to recruit so they want to be the victims and they like to antagonize. and sometimes we fall into that trap and what i think we need to do is weneed to be vocal . we need to be visible if they march and we need to be vigilant . the best example, let me take a step back. the best example of what i saw heaven after charlottesville to a white supremacist march is what happened in boston . 10 or 20,000 people from boston came out. there was no violence, no fights, no arrests . i guarantee those white supremacist will never come back to boston but they will go back to charlottesville and other places because they got the responses they wanted . >> time for one last question and it's yours. >> i wonder if you could share a little with us some insight into your experience

when you are in these gangs. what was going on in your head and your heart because most of us are here because it's hard for us to comprehend that people feel this way but i think a big component of making a shift and making a change is understanding. you mentioned icp components which are important but i wonder you personally, did you at the time you were in those gangs did it feel true for you that this was something that was important to do or was there part of you that thought it because morally you thought it wasn't right. was there a conflict or looking back did you feel brainwashed? i just wanted some insight because most of us can't comprehend whatyou've experienced . >> at first it was confusing, i didn't understand it but i knew the price of admission was to be violent and to buy in so i did and the more i did that the more i started to believe it. the more i was committed, the more i stopped having nights that you and i always had, i

always felt guilt, i always had doubts but it was degrees of it. it would lessen more i got respect. the more i got power. more girls started to like me, the more i started to grow my influence from not just local to national and international. those rewards started to mount the so the guilt even though it was still there affected me less because i was getting something and i had forgotten what itmeant to be human after a while . it was kind of like a curve like that. it went to this point where i was getting a reward after a while like a drug, it is a lot like drug addiction. it makes you feel good, it comforts you, make you forget about your problems but at the same time you know it's killing you and everybody around you but it's hard to stop. it was like that and after a while i started to feel guilty about it but i also knew that it was much harder for me at that point to disengage and to repair the

damage that i had caused so it was difficult to leave. i would say the last two years i was involved i wasn't even believing in the ideology anymore but i had to o go along with the program partly because i wasn't brave enough to tell people off and walk away and start over . but it was dangerous to do that. so yes, to answer your question shortly, at first i didn't believe it, i didn't understand it and then i did.i part of me that believed was all in what i started to recognize it wasn't something that was good for anybody was increasingly hard to leave . also because the outside world want me back and i knew that even though i had changed or i was changing. at that point, and rightfully so i had to do a lot of work to gain people's trust again. and it took years to do that. but it's not stalways an easy

situation for somebody who maybe has nothing for they have gone in. and all of a sudden we are receiving respect for the first time in their lives or a family or a sense of empowerment, sometimes for the first time. it's a very addictive thing. >> christian is available after the program. you will be signing books and so the book is available also tonight. make sure you get a copy. breaking hate,confronting the new culture of extremism . i want to thank you all for being here and of course, christian, all the work that you do and you continue to do. >>. [applause] >> years look at some current best-sellingnonfiction books according to india about . at the top of the list is

author and activist glenn boyles latest memoir untamed. followed by historian eric larson's look at prime minister winston churchill's leadership during the london blitz in the book the splendid and the file. then in talking to strangers, new yorker staff writer malcolm gladwell examines how we misread strangers words and actions. after that is rebecca solomon's reflections on becoming a writer and feminist in recollections of my nonexistence. and wrapping up our look at some of the best-selling nonfiction books according to india is thorough westover's memoir of growing up in idaho mountains and introduction to formal education at the age of 17 and her book educated. it's been on the bestsellers list or 2 years. most of the authors appeared on the tv and you can watch them online at booktv.org. here's a look at authors that recently appeared or will be appearing soon on the tvs afterwards.

our weekly author interview program and includes best-selling nonfiction books and guest interviewers. last week new york times reporter jennifer steinhauer chronicled the first year of the largest plot class of women ever elected to congress. coming up, netflix director of inclusion and former un official michelle king will offer her thoughts on the barriers that prevent women from succeeding in the workplace and this weekend on "after words", eileen zimmerman will look at white-collar drug addiction. >> i think i came to the idea of addiction with my own implicit biases . i did not think that someone struggling with a drug addiction would look like me or would be earning thesalary he was earning, would have to advanced degrees . the, highly successful partner in a very prestigious silicon valley lauper. to me someone struggling with an addiction was also struggling with bleak conditions in their lives. maybe they were homeless and struggling witha mental illness that was untreated . they were someone that i

would see on the side of the road heading under a bridge. panhandling on the subway and i was very wrong although addiction and started in those communities, there are also people at the top of the social economic ladders struggling as well. and what i didn't know then was i hadn't really educated myself in the symptoms of drug addiction. i hadn't thought it was affect me or my family so when peter was clearly suffering from those. i attributed it to everything else. maybe he was psychotic. maybe he had an eating disorder. maybe he had an illness that we didn't know about my cancer. i have people ask me if he had aids. nobody said you think he has a drug addiction. none of us, i never considered it but he did have all the symptoms and i just thought it's the fluor he's working too hard he's not getting enough sleep , all those things . >> we air saturdays at 10 pm and sundays at 9 pm eastern

and pacific on book tv on c-span2 and all previous transfer programs are available as podcasts and to watch online at booktv.org. >> the online store as book tvproducts . go to our website to check themout, see all products available . >> i don't believe in long preeminence but i feel i should say a few words before i start talking about technology. the first thing is i'm well