>> you are watching book tv on c-span two. the time -- top nonfiction books and authors. television for serious readers. good evening ladies and gentlemen and welcome to the yale book store. we are very pleased to have with us this evening dr. jennifer hirsch. they will be reading from and discussing the new book sexual citizens. the book is based on years of research a program called sexual health initiative to foster transmission --

transformation. it is the most comprehensive study of sexual assault on the campus today. after the talk we will have time for questions and answers and c-span is here with us tonight recording the event if you have a question please hold your hand up and wait and bring the mic. i present dr. jennifer hirsch. >> thank you so much it is great to be here. thank you so much for coming out. in every room there are always survivors if you start to feel distressed by what i'm saying it's fine to get up and take a break. i will start with the story.

austin was a sweet student. the story of the hot summer nights is pretty much the sexiest story in the book. that's not the story i'm going to tell. he was a good guy he have a series of nicknames that his girlfriend had. austen also sexually assaulted someone. he told us the story about freshman year he was in a room with his roommates girlfriends roommate. roommate has a girlfriend to people get shuffled into the same bedroom together the girl

was pretty junk and she said she was not interested in doing anything but when he started school he was really anxious about it. he was behind his peers. and so he got in her bed and started to touch her body.yo and then he thought to himself. so he stopped he became distraught it was in the telling of that story that he realized what he have done. it was hard for him to put together he thought a people that sexually assaulted people as bad people. i think that's one of the questions we are speaking to and the book. they are very harmful to other people without necessarily being bad peopleho they bring very different object to the problem. it's not about fear or

punishment so much of the conversation about campus sexual assault has focused on education we are to we're gonna punish our way out of this.ca or the idea that the perpetrators are sociopaths. we could at least catch them. if you think about it. i think about driving. and all of the effort that goes into teaching young people how to drive so they can do what is a pretty dangerous thing. y there are driver's ed. sid road design. many systems in place. and what we call for in the book. it's a parallel system to have sexual relations without hurting other people.

i want to tell you about the project. sexual citizens pulls back the curtain on what it feels like to be a college student today. it's about sexual assault but not just about sexual assault. it's about the life of college students. based on deep immersion in campus life. we did in-depth interviews with 151 students. they had experienced so many assaults that they cannot fit into one or two. when a team of researchers. we are too old to hang around with students. that would be kind of creepy for them to see their professors at parties. we hired a team of younger researchers who were staff. .. ..

>> we interviewed the students and then we talked in groups to find out how they talk about sex andde socializing. this is all in the context of a much larger project which i codirected with a friend and colleague funded by columbia university there is a giant project which had two surveys with the community engagement portion with that research of spending time and talking with students as they go about a atheir daily life. i will tell you another story.

a tall conventionally attractive white woman when she came to new york she settled right into new york city club wife what she enjoyed and l said was a story she wanted to tell us. sheem would meet men like b list actors and not famous athletes and she was very clear she said on her own sexual boundaries and would go back to the hotel rooms she did not want to have sex but she would give them a blow job and get out of there and for her that was a self protective escape but what is that feeling of indebtedness that made her feel that she owed them a blow job? so there is two stories to be sexually assaulted the first was freshman year her roommates were encouraging her

to see the guy o on campus she wasn't psyched about it but there was a sas freshman or senr that was into her and said at least he is a senior if i have to go out with a collegeis guy at least that is impressive and in her mind she had a mental map of how it would go. like a slow production on the first date b will make out maybe second base. then i will let him finger me we will not have sex to the third day. that is how she imagined in her mind. that's not what he was thinking it was pretty emphatic back in her room to have sex and she managed to convince him know they were not but he did sleep over and it would be nice tot cuddleeaead then she woke up in the night and he was helping her leg. and she said that is gross what are you doing so he

stopped and then she was discussing it with her i mom and her mom said he sexually assaulted you i said what does she said no it is not in the roommate said that was sexual assault. she mulls it over and tells us the next time she was sexually assaulted t was the end of one of her early years in school not entirely moved out but one of the last people in the dorms and the guy that she described as some scum l a type of guy that they were can ago somewhere together so they go to the park and smart can one - - smoke and go back to the dorm and she - - and then he wants to make out that she's not that into him.e' so he tried to forced. the issue

and was grabbing at her and it was kind of scary she's trying to convince him he had to leave he said i will tell the guard we smoked pot ltook she si will tell the guard you are trying to rape me. so she deafly had the trump car card. so she managed to get him away but she was shaken by the experience so again she called her mom to talk about it. and in talking with her mom she realized maybe it wasn't so bad. really nothing happened. he just said some bad things to me and he did nothing happened. i'm okay. so that second experience she she didn'trealize owe anyone anything. he said i came all the way uptown. yes you are not even going to have an orgasm. so she moved to thinking from herself somebody who owed a blow job to get out to have a clear sense to not have sex

that she did not want to have's and then the idea in the book is of sexual citizenship that people have the rightcie to have the sexual experiences that they have and also not to that they don't want to have and other people have the same rights in general heterosexual men were socialized to be very attentive to their own pleasure but insensitive to other people's rights that heterosexual women in particular were socialized to be less certain of their own right including to say no. so the point is not to say it was her fault and she should've had a better idea of her own sexual citizenship but the point is to think about what world are we building k where a beautiful confident

otherwise very young woman feel so indebted to other people for y pleasure? what kind of world are we building where someone is teethree their leg in the middle of the night even if they are not interested in sex? so who raise that person to not know better? so instead of thinking of campus sexual assault as a fault of campus but we widen the lens to say really it is all of our responsibility. that includes families and to think back to the driving metaphor to make sure that there is only the responsibility of one person. when parents talk with their o kidsds about driving, they don't sit them down and explain how spark plugs work. that's not how you teach someone to drive and just teaching them about stop signs and red lights.

that is the focus on consent. it is a human complex behavior and to be able to be attentive to all different kinds of input i don't want to shock you but we need to do that same training so people are prepared to accomplish that interpersonal interaction without harming other people and to thinkse t about the rolef gwen's mom in all of this and how much support she got from her mom and how important her mom was to be the person she could turn to when she needed to figure p out what she was struggling where she could not speak with her mom if she felt her mom would judge her for having sex. also we didn't have a lot of stories about dad's during this in the book so there is a need for dads to step up to do

some more emotional labor around sex specifically during childrearing in general. one more story before i wrap up. this is the classic story you might think of with campus sexual assault. lucy was a freshman going to a boarding school a very conservative environment and had not had much of a chance to socialize. plus a lot of columbia students doing what she needed to get into and had an socialize much in general and was excited for college wanted to go to parties and drink and be popular. she and one of her roommates met two seniors and they were so excited to be getting attention from seniors. so they boughtin them drinks. the bouncer had that freshman and with their fake ids because that's what they do they lead in the pretty girls in when they don't have good

fake ids. they bought them drinks and lucy was pretty drunk and excited to hang out to one - - with scott so they stumbled up during the warm summer night. he is a college student they lost the key they stood outside waited to be let in and eventually the other girl catches up with lucy she wanted to keep her safe and keep an eye on her friend clearly something would happen with the guy. so scott and lucy going to the fraternity with a friend scott asked the girl if they want a drink. they say yes. in the fraternity alcohol is kept on the second floor so they respond to that by keeping it upstairs. so he makes some drinks the friend passed out immediately

and then said do you want to go see my real? he had been making out she said yes and basking in the attention and then takes off her pants. she said no. he said it's okay. but it wasn't okay because he raped her and did not listen lito her. so that is the classic story you think of with sexual assault on campus and if you only think about that with him as a man in her as a woman you capture part of that because he was bigger but he was also a senior in a space that he controlled not just in the buildings that he lived in but also up on the third floor where she had never been in an institution he had been for three years and knew all the rules and what college

students do and don't do and she was new and unfamiliar. one of the things we do with "sexual citizens" complicate the way you may think of power and there are lots of differentth ways you need to think about power to understand what we could change to preventha campus sexual assault we talk a lot about race in the book and the ways in which the racial landscape of campus produces sexual assault. every single black woman we spoke with in the interview has an experience of unwanted sexual e touching that is not just the sexual assault but racial justice. we described in the book of women assaulting men which is a part of the story that is rarely told. we tell the stories from the perspective of the assaulters

whose words you rarely hear in a courtroom. some obviously did not show up to participate in our study so this people social patently that are intentionally harming their peers did not come to be interviewed for obvious reasons but there were three kinds of assaulters in the book one of them i put on a tie so i knew we would have sex and then he proceeds to talk about being invited to the sorority formal by a girl he didn't like that she was from a high prestige sorority and was excited to be invited to a formal. there is a very clear campus pecking order. he did not drink, she drank a

lot. she was so drunk at the end of the night in the pouring rain he brought her back to his room he couldn't figure out how to get back to bed in time to get up early for his practice. then described having sex with her as she was in and out of consciousness she was very drunk. for him it really was a terrible person but i think if he knew it was a bad thing he wouldn't have told us so he told us the story of assaulting her and he seemed to think he was coming through on an obligation she invited him and that does include saxon that iss true unless you go as friends it is understood to be consent sex. it was problematic but what we do in the book is layout how they actually have sex versus how they wish they did he is type one the oblivious assaulter as an act of

entitlement. students in the course of telling the story come to label what they did as assault and then there are a those who know what they did was an assault in a very troubled and never figuredur out to have anybody to talk with about it so they came in to tell us the story in the hopes other people knowing about it would do some good. so those of the stories that we share. so with mylt conclusion so one key take-home the schools and communities need to do more than where children are safe from being assaulted. they need to step up and ask them to step up to think about the role they play in sexual assault prevention. it's important to do this before college. we found out one quarter of

the women who participated in the survey were assaulted before college. not raped, but unwanted nonconsensual sexual contact. and that was a risk factor for college so that needs to start before hand. we also found in the same survey that women who got sex education thatho included treating to say no to sex that they did not want to have it's just good sex education and then to be assaulted so that's a real big effect so the effective vaccine as the flu shot. we spend a lot of effort making sure everyone gets the flu so the big message is the same amount of effort making sure everybody gets sex ed

that is what will take us to get to heard of unity. it will not do it by itself to be the thing that keeps all sexual assaults from happening but it is a way to teach people not just good for preventing people from being assaulted but also healthy relationships in a way to keep them from being the assaulter. parents need to step up to raise children to know better. >> and teaching your children how not to be the assaulter is the basic message how to be a decent human being. and so thinking about all the work that parents do to help young people manage their bodie bodies. think about oral hygiene. every night you watch there

kids too much one - - their team so you watch them because they are sneaky. and then to make sure they have whatever method that they need but and and that is very valuable conversation apparently to be having with people. of final message is that there is a legislative message and the #metoo movement to keep the problem of sexual violence on the front burner do not have a clear policy agenda and there is a lot of evidence that comprehensive sex and worked in there so much variability from state to state. the first and they shouldd do would demand sexual education

for kids. that is part of building that context. that's it. let's talk. [applause] >> do you have any numbers or how many young and women and men in college are in the country every year? >> the rates that we found on campus are similar to the rates shown at campuses across the country. we found that by graduation one out of three women had experienced nonconsensual sexual contact. that isn't always rape it could be unwanted touching.

and one out of six men. so that is what the survey shows on that is pretty much the numbers that have been shown as a research across the country. and is important to know the rates of sexual assault are higher for women for those who are not in college. and they are easier to survey because they are all in one place. this is a problem all institutions face. >> you mentioned there are two instances of a senior and a freshman and outright said that the unequal power dynamic that could the two cases that people think they are entitled to a sexual experience.

one of the three women that has the unwanted sexual encounter, what percentage of that are people like the freshman, junior junior or sophomore sophomore as opposed to senior freshman? >> that is the question i would answer through the survey research. people talk about, i guess i have a non- answer to your question. but we do know the beginning year is the red zone because that is a period of vulnerability. and with that age -based power disparity. it is typical to be in relationships with men who are

older and those that have the most possible partners in the campus social world where a senior men have the most possible partners so the takeover us in terms of prevention is that men and in particular, older men and older wealthy white men need some work to acknowledge their own social power. weeden interview scott i cannot tell you that but in vithat instance but she said no if he said that is okay he did not see her as a person but probably the most charitable interpretation is that he was unaware of his owner power. and part of that is to help the people on campus who are more powerful to see that

power and to engage about checking themselves in a way that they don't feel attacked. it's not their fault they werey born white men. is not their fault born into a wealthy familys is. and then to be vulnerable to assaulting someone. if they are drunk they are even more likely. and then to move safely through the world. >> and this is ongoing through research but do you have anything specifically set up? with the writing of the book? >> week to week i am out of my suitcase not focused on after

the book but i have enjoyed the high school talk i have given i would like to continue. i would like to continue on talking with young people the work that they need to do to prevent campus sexuall assault. every state in america is comprehensive sex ed until then my work is not done. and then to change the process to keep sex ed especially in the public school sector because i know that you alluded to that spark plugt analogy so do you have any ideas how to go about this? >> there are states that

change their law the healthy youth that so all young people in california are starting middle school every single public school has comprehensive sex ed that is inclusive. it speaks to queer kids and racial equality and it makes sense. colorado passed a law last year if they will teach at it has to be comprehensive those that are discussed in new york and new jersey and alabama that #metoo moment as a moment of opportunity. would never people think about sepremarital sex nobody wants their kid to mistakenly assault someone. we are all on the same tea team, team parent walking her kid safely into a world without doingou that. that is a moment of

opportunity and the american educational system is to reproduce and equality. so we swim upstream to push against that. you areps rich. you are much more likely to get sex education that is like the driving and the spark plugs. if you are poor or live in ar rural area are more likely to get sex education or not at all so there is a thing that we know that works that only the rich kids get it. we could do better. >> [inaudible] so the people who could label that as assault before talking to you and then come to talk about it?

[inaudible] but not enough for those who have committed assault. and then that they are innocent. and how the people and how that happened. and then to see what they have done. >> it's important toto acknowledge that they showed up to talk about, some of them were in therapy with a chance

to do some one-on-one therapy context and that's an important point. there is no institutional feedback for people who have harm someone. and you need to do the repairs. and right now we will not punish our way out of this. and then to tell of the people that they harm to them. but there's only a hard hammer but no soft hammer because people have sex with people who are in their friend network with people that theyie care about. and then to say what you did hurt me. that means a person will keep doing that. and the person that is harmed

and not primarily adjudication but with the restorative justice work and to think about it and a lot of sex we describe in the book is not assault but it is not unkind but it is confusing. and that is feeling good to them. so to have a resource those to participate in those experiences that do not feel good and then can work that out and that is framework that can leave room for assaulters to come forward and get some help working on that. and with that psychological

framework. in the same way that those who have sex with men don't describe themselves with gay on - - as gay. is not a social identity. but this is that to have sex in a way that is not damaging to the people around them. thank you very much good work. [applause]