next, pulitzer prize-winning historian edward larson on the relationship between george washington and benjamin franklin. he spoke about franklin and washington the founding partnership at the atlanta history center. this is one hour and ten minutes. >> good evening. welcome to the atlanta history center on this incredible night and i appreciate all of you coming out tonight and braving ithe weather to hear the author talked tonight about edward j. larson. this is being recorded by c-span, so please be sure to silence your mobile telephone device. we don't want to be embarrassed on nationwide cable. this evening he will discuss both franklin and washington.ng

it's one of the must read books of 2020. historian commented the elegantly written biography reveals it was indispensable to the success of the revolution. he's a prolific author, speaker and chair in law at pepperdine university. he's making his seventh appearance to the center and we are delighted to welcome him back. >> he is also the co-author of 18 books and hundreds of articles and his lecture on seven continents and contributes to the daily show, bbc, cnn, fox news, msnbc and npr. he won the pulitzer prize for history in 1998 for his book summer of the gods. the trial in the debate over science and religion.

i must emphasize as the pulitzer prize is awarded from history at the universitye of georgia. it's a world of honors but no pulitzer. there are no coincidences. it turns out it carries its own rewards. please join me in welcoming edward larson. [applause] >> thank you all. the reason i've been here so often is indeed i've taught for 20 years for those of you that our bulldogs witare bulldogs win college as a university of georgia.

my friend, those were the last words benjamin franklin addressed to george washington. they came at the end offli a ler written in what franklin knew luld be the last year of his life. he closed his response to franklin with a salutation your sincere friend. in this exchange written in the first year of washington's presidency, each expressed and i'm quoting here undying respect and affection for the other but franklin adding washington topping him with veneration of the time franklin and washington were the two most admired individuals in the united states which is why franklin college all the way down in georgia it wasn't cold at the university of georgia, it was called franklin college. and they were the most famous americans in the world.

the final letters to each other represented the end to a three decade partnership that more than any other pairing with forged the american nation. the relationship began during the french and indian war when franklin supplied for the british general the ill-fated assault on fort duquesne and washington. at ththe general's body under te dirt road traveled by those retreating. .. the constitutionall convention and the establishment of the

tfederal government. perhaps because of the differences with the background, the age, the manner, the public image, their relationship was not widely common and remains little discussed today which is why i decided to write a book about it. but it existed and help to shape the course of american history. both have been healed by biographers of titles of books as the first american. but they were also friends and unlike adams and jefferson rivals because both were comfortable in their r own skin and usually they were competent people. their relationship gained significance during the american revolution whennt franklin led e mission to europe and washington commanded the cotton army.

victory required both of these efforts to succeed. in their success required ordination. this historic collaboration when couples with their role as the two most prominent delegates of the constitutional convention helped found the nation in the global experiment in liberty and republican role. i was interested in that in these times to think about leadership network. how did these men work together. we know they had their differences but how did they work together so seamlessly to create the united states. this is a different partnership. usually when historians write about partnership they talk about partnership hierarchical partnership, washington and hamilton for example or jefferson and madison where you can follow them neatlye because one is easily supporting the work of the other.

here we are talking about a partnership of equal, a partnership of two men who by the time of the resolution were larger-than-life euros already. went to the second connell congress already the most famous americans. but there are the cooperation, the partnership of equals, let's give at few examples as you all know, think of world war ii, roosevelt, franklin eleanor roosevelt were and churchill were necessary to defeat germany pre-both were equal. they both had a huge history and larger-than-life. and yet they work together for a common goal. or thinking down here, think of lyndon johnson and martin luther king, both are necessary to pass

the civil rights act. each were important. if you try to put one over the other like one likes to do one way or another tries to do another another way, it does not tell the whole story. this is truly a partnership of people of equals who work together. for me that created a writing challenge. which was part of the fun of the book. to tell this story when they are not always where they have a separate story of their own and so what i endedir up doing was having to trace or sketch both of their stories to show who they were and then when they came together periodically such as the french and indian war during the american revolution or the constitutional convention, thenheic they deeplf how these two men work together. so to just begin, i will tell

you a few stories, just begin the french and indian war. the french and indian war what brought them together because franklin by this time by hard work and sheer brilliance had risen in philadelphia from being immigrant and boston, a runaway and a servant with nothing to being one of the richest men in the new world with a chain running up and down the east coast and integrated backward into paper mills, also being a leading american humorist and popular writer with the almanac and also being an inventor and a world famous scientist because of electricity. and when the french and indian war came it was fought over the ohio country, that is the area around pittsburgh, the fork of

the ohio into eastern ohio, western pennsylvania, new jersey. and because ofle the fluke, because of heirs in the original colonial, pennsylvania had a plane going directly west including the forks of the ohio and the ohio country and virginia had a claim going straight line at the bottom but the pandemic up in that met both claims reports wrath ohio. and both were projecting toddlers back there and investing back there. then in 1850s -- 1750s the french moved in. they invade, they had already had louisiana, 30 had canada and they decided they would take the ohio river valley that connected to more conveniently. so they sent an army and bill swarts and they sent the native americans to attack the pennsylvanian virginia settlers. franklin was made

commander-in-chief and the creator of the pennsylvania militia. by happenstance with his brother who was the leader of the virginia militia lawrence washington, washington became at a young age and franklin was in his 40s, washington in his 20s became commander-in-chief of the virginia militia. they had to fight together against the french. and this is when they first got together, many meetings, many times, many core nations. franklin turns out to be a brilliant strategist and knows just where to put to protect the pennsylvanians. washington goes in there and they work together. inin various occasions, ultimaty leading to a joint army freeing at the ports of ohio. without going into all the

details of the cooperation, what lasts is what they learn. they learned the sameon lessons. from their work of the office in charge of the militia during the indian war, they learn similar lessons, first they learned that the british had different objectives from their american colonist. the british wanted to keep the colonies derided independent franklin included and would readily tax them without representation. washington found the british willing -- unwilling to secure the frontier except as is served their larger geopolitical interests. and after the colonists wanted, they took it back with the proclamation of 1776 -- 1763. second franklin and washington learn that they would remain

subordinate to their british counterparts. washington's bitter frustration confirmed it, he pleaded for a royal commission that his brother had without receiving one and was compelled as a colonel in the militia to submit to the lowest of britishit officers. so franklin when pennsylvanians proprietors who ran the colony within broadad parameters set by parliament heard at his apartment after the award of the assembly agent in london, they dismissed the influence inss england. mr. clinton's popularity is nothing c here. he will be looked onn very coldy by the great w people. third, the american colonies, they both concluded would benefit from greater unity as reflected in franklin's albany plan which is proposed during this period. trying colonies together in

washington's call for inner colonial military action to defeat the french. after all it was a forced to compose the truth from five colonies not from england to finally drive the french. this experience made washington as much as franklin a believer in the union. these three lessons might benefit from american independence. but they were insufficient to supply and supported as a realistic option. a final share lesson carried more weight despite the wars ultimate outcome that british were the people in new world combat. they both concluded. as franklin wrote about the battle that destroyed the british army and killed general, the whole transaction as americans the first suspicion

that are exulted ideas of the british regulars was not well-founded. washington had been there to see it and reported that at least in frontier fighting, virginia soldiers outperformed british regulars, they put to the test they might do so again. coupled with the disastrous effect that british colonial policy following the french and indian war these shared lessons help to nurture the revolutionary spirit that brought franklin and washington back together again a quarter-century later to fight and forge new american union. franklin had gone to london as a representative, first is the pennsylvania colony was seen how successful he was, five other states including colonies and including georgia ask him to be their representative to in t

london. meanwhile washington as inherited due to his brother's death inherited mount vernon. and use this time to turn what was a failing tobacco plantation because of played out soil into a very successful collection of wheat farms with green mills and eventually with the largest h newey distillery in the world. it was brilliant entrepreneurship on his part. but it brought the back together in 1775 and this is a story we all sort of know but if you place it out and you reallyy follow it closely and watch the different steps whether then look in broad terms, you see the next phase had three stages, three separate stages. first it was while they were both the philadelphia at the second continental congress, washington is reflected by virginia and bricklin had come

home and selected by pennsylvania and when they arrived in philadelphia they were the two superstars from the very beginning. they were heroes of the french and indian war and franklin was famous as a diplomat and the two of them were appointed to virtually every committee. so they had to work together on the same committee. certainly every committee involving the diplomacy. then at franklin's urging, washington promoted his commander-in-chief and he goes up to the siege of boston and cambridge to oversee the siege of boston to see a ragtag militia of 16000 men had trapped 5000 british regular, held them, combine themul in boston and of course they were the navy so they could always leave but they were powerless to move forward. washington goes in and takes over and becomes commander-in-chief partly africanfranklin support.

and then franklin is left in charge of most of the work committee. so he regularly needs in washington, he goes to cambridge to meet them in the siege of boston goes to new jersey to meet them when the war moves down to new york and then when washington sends troops up to conquer canada, franklin goes with them. he tries to persuade the canadian people to view this invading army as an army of liberation. he was 70 years old at the battlefront. and people did not live as long then. i go into v the various detailsf their meetings together, that's what i try to explore in the book. but let meng, bk. bring two ths forward from this period. franklin's prior experience in

london and during the french and indian war led him to oversee sooner than most ofor the others -- most of the delegates the need for undertaking to fundamental reform which washington joined him in. first he consistently spoke and thought in terms of america rather than of the colony. believing that the british could only be defeated in liberty only secured through a united effort. this is the first editorial drawn in america by franklin. having pushed the albany plan of union during the french and indian war, he needed a similar what stronger draft for the colonies in julyti of 1775. it ends up not being adopted, they go with article of confederation which is two weeks but we will get to that. clearly in nature with each colony retaining control over matters particular to it,

franklin held concept that he later pushed at the constitutional convention including proportional representation in congress and centralize power over interstate commerce or inner colonial congress, foreign affairs, western lands, he was a great believer in the need for frontier in such domestic matter as necessary for the general welfare. these will become exactly the t same issues but by the end of the war washington also embraced when he wrote his final great document as a general before stepping down to the states where he said this article of confederation is not working, we have chaos. he worked with franklin, the same issues franklin raised he raised to the h state which woud eventually leading to the constitutional convention.

second, while many patriots blinded by faith in their cause believe that citizen soldiers had a hireling army sober by experience dealing with british leaders for saw a long war, some are soldiers and part-time militias could not win such a war, only a unified discipline source. yet as commander in troops perceiving boston, not only did washington face the daunting task of transforming militiamen from various colonies into a single continental army, he had to do so knowing most of the men he inherited at boston had sign-on only to be at the end of 1775 confronted with an army of professional soldiers, franklin and washington knew their army must be reconstituted on a more permanent basis with the men serving for w the duration and s congress came around once a

militia commission began expiring with the british still embedded in boston it assigned franklin to multiple committees charged with reforming the army in working with washington to do this and this work is what brought him back in contact with the washington with various meetings during theme war. of course they continue -- then franklin gets sent to europe to be the chief diplomat after the declaration of independence. there their work becomes more important because washington knows he can only win with the french. at times during the revolutionary war, most of our soldiers did not even have shoes and many do not have shirts. and franklin had to negotiate shoes and shirts and guns and cannons and ships from the french. and money to pay the soldiers for the last three years of the war, they did not get paid, it was only the french money that allowed it. and then the french army to come

over and then the navy to come over and the final victory at yorktown was a coordinated effort with more french troops surrounding yorktown then americanit troops. in the french navy outside of all t of which franklin and washington had correlated. so they had to work a closely together. indeed franklin served as a v betting agent to see what foreign soldiers would help. they all bedded first with franklin and franklin wrote the note to washington saying it is up to you whether you want them but this man will help. this man will be a good man. three key and you could add some others all came via franklin to washington. now let me jump ahead, i could tell plenty more about the revolution. but let me jump ahead to the

continental constitutional convention. where before it even began washington joined with franklin and the other delegates from virginia and pennsylvania who had been the first to get to philadelphia to draft what became known as the virginia plan because it was introduced by the virginia governor to replace the articles of confederation with a centralized constitution with power over just the thing that franklin and washington have been asking for. centralize power, interstate and international commerce, the power to tax and spend for the general welfare, the power over the frontier, the power of consolidated power over the military. these were what they had been arguing for in those would appear in the virginia plan and will eventually work their way into the constitution.

thereto, the two leading delegates because of their stature with washington and franklin and when washington arrived in philadelphia, as soon as he droppeded his bag franklin is now 80 years old, after he lost his bag he goes immediately to meet with franklin and goes to franklin's house. they met regular during the constitutional because they know they are together because of their stature, keys to success, they both have been pushed for having a constitutional convention in the first two states to call for constitutional convention fromin washington to virginia and franklin pennsylvania. in addition to countless lesser additions and alterations turning the virginia plan which is been developed ahead of time into a frame constitution

requires three major compromises or innovations, each of which engage the talents of franklin and washington. it shows how they work together and also have their differences. foremost among these was a so-called great compromise. restructuring congress to have a proportionally representative popular elected house of representatives in a senate with equal representation for each state. although franklin favored a popularly elected legislature in washington favored a popular elected lower house which is proportional to the state population and then in choosing a proportional senate so in both cases proportional representation based on population franklin was one of the first to realize that that was not going to fly, they were

not going to get the small state to go along. he foresaw the final compromise earlier than anyone else and help the broker. indeed, while led by franklin, washington virginia and franklin pennsylvania, majority delegation supported the representation in both houses of congress and to determine the minority from the small states and demanded equal representation with any deal without it. this was a fight over principal with practical implication. the contest for representation was not finally resolved for two months. taking the measure of both sides in the pragmatic way that tended to bring people together, franklin shown here in a picture in the u.s. capital how he work together, that is franklin started below his mulberry tree

where he would bring delegates together including washington to work out these deals in washington is a key compromise as well. they worked closely together. franklin said at the convention th representedl takes place a small state contender liberty will be in danger. if equal quality of votes is in place a large state they their money will be in danger. we are met here to do something, franklin urged the convention to act like a carpenter who when framing a table from two planks of uneven parts takes a little from both and makes a good joint. the result was a senate and house resulted. indeed after finally working the deal with washington when it was all dead and he said we have to point this to a committee and the committee he picked included franklin and moderates who can work out something and come back with that compromise and then washington got behind it in the compromise task.

otherwise they would not have been aee constitution. as the delegates pushed on over the presidency the second big issue consumes more time at the convention that goes on any other topic and was not resolved until the end. these people were living ing the shadow a british monarch and they had no experience with creating an elected leader. having agreed to begin with in the virginia plan, the delegates reached their revolution on the executive on june 1. these call for a national executive chosen by congress with a parliamentary democracy. and decide the general authority over executing national laws in the state of the officer to enjoy the executive rights invested in congress by them confederation. or those extensive executive rights included those of the

british monarch later vested in congress and gave vast scholars to the president which meant one thing when the president was chosen by congress. but quite another when they later innovated and electoral college and a separate election of the president. beyond executing laws, the king held direct authority in the military foreign affairs with officers and judges and since the articles of an confederation might go to the executive under the virginia plan then again they might not, thehe resolution was frustratingly vague on this score. perhaps because washington, this is a drawing at thehe conventio, perhaps washington the presumed first president was sitting among them when the delegates reached a revolution they all fell silent. after brief comment by supporters of the executive, a considerable pause ensued in the chair asked if the delegates are ready to pass the provision. coming from washington delegation no one seems inclined

to cross the great washington. washington is equal, this is a picture of franklin read the convention and never wanted to defer, he broke the silence in the restructure of the executive is of great importance. here is a g delegate to delivern it before the question was put. that is a quote. this, in the debate flooded the room for four days with the discussion still raging, franklin said to his fellow delegates with reference to washington and the presidency, the first man put at the homesi will be a good one. nobody knows what fort will come "after words". it will always be increasing as elsewhere until it ends and destitute. they were in the week executive. at one point or another during the debate he advocated circumcising the presidency with the term and advisory council limiting the veto power and

adding provisions for impeachment and removal from office. as franklin put at the convention, it would be best to provide in the constitution for the regular punishment of the executive when the misconduct should deserve it and for the honorable acquittal when he should be unjustly accused. washington for his part consistently supported a strong executive and carried most of the states with him. the third congress compromise that you t all know is famously involved slavery. let me say that that bullets franklin and washington. that we get to the end of the constitutional convention. surveying the final product evolve from the virginia plan that this man introduced, edmund randolph and washington's neighbor george mason ward delegates at a constitution with a vaguely defined but clearly engrossed president the fundamentally reconstructive senate would using randolph's words would end in monarchy or

aristocracy. they both voted against. the express concerns throughout they thoughtgs andfr he was going to join them in by joining them with the constitution because of his authority but due to his trust in george washington asto the first president and in part because he believed in a stronger federal union was absolutely essential. that is the alternative of doing nothing was worse. he accepted the final draft. his lingering worries may account for his widely quoted answer to the green game of pennsylvania high society elizabeth powell when she asked him after the convention ended if it created a republic or monarchy. he replied a republic if you can keep it. now littlewood compromise and here is james mason, washington's neighbor, an old

friend who he never spoke to again after this riddled with these compromises this was washingtonpr constitution. especially with respect to the presidency. after the convention approved it,o he declared it is the best constitution that can be. in particular washington defended the powers given to congress as no more than indispensable necessary to perform the functions of good government. another gathered the broad authority conferred on the president even after the love lafayette from france, those extensive powers of the executive as one of only four points along with no bill of rights, no guarantee a jury trial, and no presidential term limit question by european philosophers who had reviewed the document.

in his reply washington gave ground only on a bill of rights and guarantee jury trials by suggesting that those in due course amendment could provide for. franklin shared anti-federalist concerns over presidential power and wanted a more democratic constitution. but in the final draft is better than nothing. i agree to this constitution with all its faults he told fellow delegates in a major prepared speech delivered at the convention last day because i think a general government is necessary for it. there was no form of government but what may be a blessing to the people as well as ministered ordained and poorly ministered. franklin understood the division splitting the convention and whatever compromise could have a federal government. he warned his delegates and would only be for the purpose of cutting one another's throats.

with a nod to washington, franklin expressed his faith at the constitution i'm quoting is likely to be well administered for a course of years, yet at that time predicted that it would, not made but would in the indefinite is him as other forms have done before when the people shall be so corrupted as to need this government. a few weeks later washington said virtually the same thing in a private letter to his nephew who had later become justice of the supreme court. when he wrote that popular government worked only so long as a people have virtue. franklin in washington embraced the constitution because it realized their long-held ambition for fortified federal government with consolidated authority over commerce in the frontier and taxation.

washington also secured a strong independent presidency that franklin saw was overly monarchical. from coming from large states and financially minded, neither washington or franklin favored a senate with two members from each state but both accepted as a necessary compromise. southern delegates including washington also scored critical safeguard for slavery that many northern delegatesrt including franklin hoped would fail. it tells much about their rational pragmatism and faith in republican virtue that despite the compromises franklin in washington fully accepted the constitution and work so hard to get it ratified. but franklin also working for washington to be the first president. let me go back briefly to the compromise over slavery that isolate gift over, i did not skip over in the book at the time but i bring it up as the last closing encounter.

slavery was one manner the unbridgeableab he divided frankn and washington just as it became the subject because we know 70 years later that they had worked so long to get together coming from the south and knowing full well the issues divisiveness temporizing on slavery was nothing new for washington. it was his practice. born into a slaveholding family, washington owned over 100 slaves inan control 200 more from his wife valerie. during and after the revolution the slavery from quaker abolitionist was much love military aid and also hamilton pleaded with washington to denounce the institution publicly or at least set an example by freeing his own slaves. he sometimes tha the sympathize. but he always equated.

a member of his own increase. he pursued those that ran away. those in human bondage knew his private face never saw washington ass a liberator in many tried to escape whenever the british troopss got near during the revolutionary war. not so franklin, since taking the reins of the pennsylvania abolition society in the springs of 1787 during the second term of governor of pennsylvania, he served returns in that role between theee war in the constitutional convention, franklin had assumed the ever more prominent position criticizing the slave trade and hurting emancipation. he pleaded with influential slaveholders such as virginia governor edmund randolph, the first attorney general to free their slaves and urged governor john langdon to stop his states shippers from participating in

the slave trade. franklin hosted both men and his home during the convention and felt free to press them on the issue. his strategy onat slavery whiche clearly expressed was to bring the southern fate into a fortified federal union under the constitution and how the government worked toward abolition. he did not wait long. his final assault on slavery to petition and he signed his president of the pennsylvania abolition society. declaring quote, equal liberty was apportioned and still the birthright of allman and called upon members to step to the very urge of the power vested for discouraging every trafficking about pullman. paraphrasing that thoseut powers included promotig the welfare in securing the blessing of liberty for the people of the united states. those blessings are rightfully to be a minister without

distinction of color to all description of people. he supported this petition inn the press, he was an able writer with a flashing slaveholders defense of the institution. this drew on his newspaper background and history of assuming fictional guises such as richard and the almanac to make his point. here writing under then algerian divine that everyone knows very frankly. here he took on in georgia, george's congressman jane jackson who delivered a speech in the two weeks that congress was stopped cold debating franklin's petition in other words mocking his speech to the anti-sleep petition franklin had mohammed abraham and algerian

divide asking what europeans then enslaved in great numbers and north africa. what is so pitiable in their condition. is there condition made worse into falling in our hands, no there brought in to land where the funnd of islamism and shines in full sun to them that the opportunity of making themselves acquainted with the true doctrine and saving their immortalta souls. now it relies on cultural relativism in your franklin displayed his modernity. while serving as we take care to provide them with c everything e heard him say about arabs and the european slave the laborers in their own country as i'm informed are worse and lodged in close. this by affirming that the koran condemned slavery drew directly that was cited by jackson in the

speech to congress. slaves serve your masters with cheerfulness. no reader can mistake franklin's meaning. washington privately fumed denouncing franklin's intervention as not as strong as words that washington would use, unkindly. washington only decisive act camew,w, in freeing his own wil. andf postponing and draining the political and socialhe significance. interested aides like henry lauren from south carolina or alexander hamilton from new york and prominent abolitionist including virginia quaker, had urged washington to act earlier, ideally during the idealistic fever of the american revolution when it might have made a

difference. once dead washington could neither explain his motive or present his final act as a model for other slaveholders. even his life who owned most of the slaves at mount vernon as the property did not follow his lead and kept the childrendl allegedly by her father, half sisters and her son, and grandchildren enslaved. southern slaveholders easily dismissed the northern abolitionist struggle to give it meaning. no onee can know what might have happened had the two icons of the revolution franklin washington stood together against slavery at the nation's founding. certainly some split over the issue and with them the nation. washington in southern states ioretain their slave franklin ad northern states rejected the institution. virginia abolitionist robert who i mentioned before close to 1784

level with washington with a warning, notwithstanding but now receiving the tributes of trade from the grateful people. the time is coming when all actions will be weighed on equal balance and undergo an impartial examination, how inconsistent would appear tor prosperity should be recorded that the great general of washington we keep a number of people in absolute slavery who by nature are entitled to freedom as themselves. the same test that they put out a place to all founders. i would contend that despite their flaws franklin washington have held up better than most leaders of anyos age. theirs was a founding partnership that launched a nation. over the years the harshest critics of franklin have focusen on his promotion of falsifying middle-class virtue in the middle million was glorious who is not laboriousem he wrote in a

typical almanac for 1734 in year later the ever famous one early to bad in early to rise makes them healthy wealthy and wise. generations of americans took franklin's to heart and credited them as their way to wealth. just as surely a generation of intellectuals from eger allen pope to fitzgerald mocked franklin as ad pedestrian propht of pragmatism. franklin was a man of many faces who as author hid behind masks ranging from his first to his loss the arab slavery, mohammed abraham judging him from his two failed to do him justice. washington was the same, he did not wear multiple mask but he so carefully cultivated the firm face a republican virtue that he

once famously have the great portraitist gilbert stuart who had the painting under 1 dollar bill. nothing like my feelings. it can make it difficult to see the public image as a to look beyond franklin's multiple guidance. the pennsylvania printer in thea planter appeared too dissimilar to have a lasting friendship especially since the former posed as the demand of the people in the latter preened as one above them. yet focusing on their distinct public images obscured the fundamental similarities. hard-working and entrepreneur, franklin washington had successful business careers outside of government and never viewed them as politicians. both prospered of columnist and

supported until realizing the that britain would never extend basic english rights to americans. jealous of the liberty, they turned against the crown and never look back. each nurtured deep lifelong relationship with both men and women, natural leaders, people trusted them and they trusted others. both. men listened more than thy talked, compromised on needs to secure ends, relied on others, gave credit to others, sacrifice for the common good and never ever wavered on principle. and both were reformers, franklin felt he saw problems them.ied to fix franklin fixes mechanicall tomorrow, lightning rods and bifocals to popular philosophy.

washington included constitutions of course but also important agricultural reform. shaped by the enlightenment franklin washington shared a republican ideology in a progressive faith that relied on human reason and divinepr providence rather than traditional ways and established. they saw truth and accepted facts. life could get better they maintained, theirs did. as the old order collapsed around them they crafted a better one to replace it. one that has lasted for over two centuries. they did not see as perfect and never thought it would last forever. people allowed it, even the constitution for all its virtues would lead to tierney. but the presidency serving as a call to the constitutional

convention the fetus of the king. the example of franklin washington however, shows with individuals can do in times of action, fracture and failure to address problems and improve the state of affairs. we are not driven by fear the journalistroadcast would later say about americans, if we dig deep in our history and our doctrine and remember we are not descended from fearful manner. he surely had the like of washington and franklin in mind. so the onset of world war ii, the war that made him famous in his freedom speech, franklin delano roosevelt quoted franklin those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety. franklin was more than a pennsylvania printer, washington

much more than a tidewater planter. they were larger-than-life american originals whose partnership and revolutionary time lay the foundation for the world's first continental republic which is lasted for 250 years, each recognize the other's goodness and greatness. in viewed one another as partners in the fight to liberty. others saw this too. despite their critics franklin was elected to his state's highest office unanimously twice. in washington elected to his nation highest office unanimously twice. in central to the republican meneptions of service, both willingly have their public stations to return to the private position in both preferred private life to public power. yette they were and are the two indispensable americans franklin

and washington the founding partnership. thank you. [applause] thank you very much. we have time for some questions. >> can you please wait until we bring the microphone. >> i will be happy ever lot more that was in this talk. >> is a professional historian, you remain in all that we have guys like this in the right place at the right time. >> i do but both of them -- we have to listen to what they say, both of them honestly we think of franklin as his religious views or whatever we think about washington you know were conventional christians. but both believe it was from divine providence. they both believe that god or

divine separated and created american something new under thr sun. and they both were chosen in the alignment and as were edmund randolph or john hancock, you can just keep naming these people who were central to this role, thomas jefferson, john adams, samuel adams, a laundryam list, yes it is impressive, i think people rise to the occasions, and especially in the south that was a real crucible. in tempered by that they had a vision for something special but they were not flawless. they themselves recognized this

electoral college has problems in the senate and some of the structures have problems with. some did not support, franklin wanted the direct electionn with the president as did james wilson and governor morris from pennsylvania and alexander hamilton from new york. they had their differences but they realize something was necessary and they were committed to creating this country and they did a good job with it. >> thank you for being here at the atlanta history center. my question is do you think of ben franklin was younger that washington might've included him in his cabinet or administration? >> i think if franklin had been younger both washington and franklin would've each served as president. they were larger-than-life. look at them, here in georgia

the first thing we did after the revolution was create the college, the first college created after the revolution. and we named it franklin college, was not the university of georgia, the whole thing was franklin college. when tennessee was coming in originally it applied as the state of franklin, you look around the country in most states have franklin county to this day in the washington county. these people were larger-than-life originals. if you look at and i go to great links, if you look of the ratification debate in every state and every debate in every newspaper article, the constant refrain of the federalist was it franklin washington designed it or franklin in washington -- whatever order they put it in, how did that work, these are two people we trust.

so they had the stature but a sprinkling at the time of the constitution was over 80 years old. he had just completed -- he was still in his third term as governor and he served three terms. he makes joe biden look young. [laughter] and he remained as sharp as attack word could say mayor bloomberg looked young. but he was in no position to be president at that age, he ends up only surviving one term. it would've been a teamwork otherwise but franklin was 100% as much as you can be behind washington. he had great doubts of the constitution. and he pushed for ratification, pennsylvania becomes the first

larger state to ratify,ia both critical tota success and throuh it all, he is pushing washington to be president, there was not any doubt in his mind tried to be president. that was a situation in age was a factor, and franklin was a generation older than washington and this is when people did not live as long as they do l now. >> is it true that we do not refinish pain our debt back to france as for the revolutionary war and secondly we ended up throwing it back on the french and training the british, why do we do that. >> good question. i will have to direct you to a different book that i t wrote. maybe a catastrophe while dealing without but washington and franklin both if you read

franklin's -- washington's farewell address as president, he really warns against partisanship and he warns against entangling alliances with foreigngn countries. franklin felt exactly the same way. franklin came back to pennsylvania, the willing he was willing to serve as governor in his mid-70s, they were torn apart by two parties. he was the one person who was elected unanimously and both sides accepted as an arbitrator and as a result one of the twot states that is successful during the period in pennsylvania in the franklinim leadership. new york was the other successful state in georgia was not, georgia was very much a failed state over two thirds of the territory and reconquered because they cannot protected by native americans and they were printing money like crazy and massive inflation in georgia.

there were problems in a lot of states. those problems helped -- then the revolution came into france and hamilton argued with some grounds, this is not the government we borrowed money from. this is a different government, useful argument. [laughter] and he argued the same thing when it came to support france. this is not the government we have an alliance withli and washington used his power under the constitution to aggregate the treaty. only congress can make a treaty as to approve it but ending the treaty, washington claimed i do all about myself. and so he did and he ended the treaty but franklin two as a negotiator when he was a delegate working as ambassador to france, he was constantly paying the french even the

englishg, they were both against because they considered the interest of their country first. and they needed to cut a niche for america when we were struggling no country on the edge of european world and france and england were the two superpowers. they were both ingratiating between those two in washington because he lived longer and because he was president ended up doing those items you suggest and that was the reason because that was by then in america's interest. any other questions. >> thank you very much for your extremely scullery depiction of how these two gentlemenly cooperated and certainly in today's age we need a little more of that.

did you find any fundamental differences that they were unable to reconcile in your scholarship? >> slavery was one area where they work differently. they talked about them frankly, they talked about the differences frankly. franklin was pushed out the constitutional convention but push the conservatio constituti. he decides we will never get constitution if we do that. so he shoveled off his criticism to slavery to governor morris to delivedeliver the addresses as t next to each other at the convention. and instead biden his time. there was a place that they differ, they differ somewhat over the powers of presidency because franklin had written the constitution of pennsylvania which had a weaktu executive but when you had a strong leader like franklin it was very effective.e. washington looking at the chaos

after the revolutionary war but and looking at europe witht the monarch thought we needed a strong leader. there were differences that they met together, work them over ans of course we saw franklin push for washington to see the first president despite the issues they differed on. they basically agreed on so much more that theyy differ. they believed in unity, they believed in a unified government, they both were by nature compromisers. in this sense never compromising on principle, they believed in liberty, property rights, they believed in american independence, they believed in american destiny, they believed in settling in the frontier but they realize to get anything done in a government ofhe the people which is howow washington described in his inaugural address, that people -- you

don't have a monarch that can order around, you need to compromise and work together to secure essential ends. since they both have the spirit and they both took counsel and they both did not crave credit, they both willingly -- franklin compulsively so try to share credit with others but washington two. and that was their nature so that allowed -- i think there's another element too. franklin was ame humorous. he was a storyteller, a very clever storyteller and some of his stories and observations might be a little off color si side, washington was not a storyteller, he was very stern but loved a joke. essentially a little off-color joke. so while franklin was the backstop or and i cannot imagine

washington ever stopping it ba back. the pairing were quite well. and they both love the book and have things in common, they both were very proud ofey their houss and like to show them off, they both were wonderful entertainers and franklin did not used to drink but he learned to drink wine in france. he came back at an expert with wine. washington always loved wine and they knew had to share that ensure the commonalities. they were the type of people who liked other people and got along with other people and really had lasting friendships. . . . trait and a special trait they shared together. so that helped them to work together, despite their differences. yes. >> i know that washington was a land speculator from a very young age. >> yes.

>> was franklin also a land speculator? and the fact that after the french and indian war, the british, as part of the peace agreement, drew online down the crest of the appalachian mountains mountains and said no more settlers could go fast of that line. it seems to me this had to be a big motivator to the revolution. these men and many others that were speculators they had speculated and they were quite determined about it.

the proclamation of 1763 by the british contributed as much as anything. certainly the stamp act they were all critical as well but removing the frontier was critical. you can read their writings of franklin and both of them believe in the frontier. he didn't know he was going to inherit any land. he thought basically the land in virginia mount vernon was going to go to his older brother because back then everything in virginia was passed down to the oldest son and it was just fortuitous that both the other side and he ended up getting in there and thereafter he got martha washington into the project.

the frontier in pennsylvania made its fortune on what was then part of the frontier and became fabulously wealthy as a printer. the more important thing was they both conceived as to what made america different. you can see this in the writings of other people at the time. they believed that what made americans lovers of liberty, what made them open to improvement as they could always go to the frontier and start over. they could invest and move themselves and with the option ofn the frontier keeping the openness of the west that made america different than the

european. jefferson would pick that up,so too mac. the only ones were the source of these people. and they believe taking away the frontier was going to turn americans and so they both believe deeply that america needed the frontier so not only did that help read to the revolution the proclamation of 1763 even though it was far on the coast and america had done nothinhave donenothing in the f. when franklin negotiatedra the peace, he insisted on getting it all the way to the mississippi and he pushed for that and said it's better to use all these arguments because to him, he would not agree. he puts down eason shoals. schulz. we wouldn't agree with out and

it wasn't just the liberty of oe 13 colonies on the coast, but it was also going all the way to the mississippi. and so, washington and franklin both deeply believed in the frontier as fundamental to america. thank you. >> as someone in their eid-20s, can you speak more to the formative years the growth of the pioneers specifically of the habits. >> that is a wonderful question and i try to cover that in some fashion in the book because what they were in w their 20s and in their late teens made them what they were later and franklin goes off, leaves boston, breaks his contract and start his own business. he learned to trade already as a

printer and he finds there's no need for a printer there is if he goes on to pennsylvania butpe he's always driven. neither of them have a formal education. he formed clubs, learn foreign languages. she would carry his own paper down the street in philadelphia because he would see that all of these merchants and bankers would see him working hard. he didn't need to carry it himself, butlf he knew what he

needed to make his way to wealth and he explained that and wrote about that and he built key friendships with important people. he didn't know he was going to inherit wealth. he made friendships with the most part and people around as you point out on the speculator of the frontier he went off to the frontier and could have taken the job along the coast that was safer if no, he was camping out in the woods surveying land because then he could do that under the act, the land-grant for the west. they were both driven in nature we are not going to do this alone. we are going to d get this workg with others and so that is their

way to wealth and franklin ends up writing it up which becomes incredibly popular and some of the richest people in american history like carnegie and james harper and others accredited this book as their own way to wealth. so yes they were driven people who wanted to do good and they believed in virtue and beauty to helping other and they joined the bases to become leaders of the nations in the relative state as they offered connections with others, but they both worked extraordinarily hard to build their businesses. [applause] >> thank you for coming tonight and was the way to wealth as franklin said knowledge is the

best interest. in alignment with that tonight we have the discount on books, so it is in effect. come out and play a book. thank you very much for coming. [applause]

good afternoon and welcome to the theater here at the national archive. i'm the archivist of the united states and it is a pleasure to have you with us this afternoon whether you're here in the theater for joining us on facebook and youtube channels and a special welcome to the c-span audience. before we hear from william junior i would like to tell you about two other programs coming up next month. on tuesday september 10 at noon, sidney blumenthal will tell us about the recently released volume three of the biography of abraham lincoln all the powers of earth, the political life 1856 to 1863. and on monday, september 16 at 7, the associate justice will tell us about his new book a republic if you can keep it in which he explores the aspects