>> good evening, and welcome to the atlanta history center here in this wet night. i appreciate all of you coming out tonight and braving the weather to hear our author talk tonight with edward j larson. this is being recorded by c-span so please be sure to

silence your mobile telephonic devices. you don't want to be embarrassed on a nationwide cable. this evening larson will discuss his newest book, franklin and washington. it has been named one of the ten most reads and reader in winter. dual biography reveals that the partisanship of franklin and washington was indispensable to the success of the revolution. larson is a prolific author, speaker and darling chair law at pepperdine university. he is making his seventh appearance at the atlanta history center. we are delighted to welcome him back. larson is also the co-author of 18 books and hundreds of articles he has lectured on seven continents and right away contributes to the shows bbc, cnn, fox news, smm bc,

and npr. larson won the pulitzer prize for history in 1998 for his book summer of the gods. america's continuous debate over science and religion. i must emphasize, and i'm sure to remind him every time that during each of his seven appearances here, that is pulitzer prize was awarded when he taught history at the university of georgia. since absconding to california, he has numerous well-deserved honors but no pulitzer. [laughter] there are no coincidences. [laughter] turns out that humidity carries its own rewards. please join me in welcoming edward larson. [applause] >> guest: thank you. thank you all. and the reason i've been here so often is indeed because i taught for 20 years, and as those of you who are bulldogs we know franklin college at

the university of georgia. hence, my interest in the subject. let me begin this way, my dear friends, my dear friend. those were the last words that benjamin franklin addressed to george washington. they came at the end of a letter written and what franklin knew would be the last year of his life. washington closed his response to franklin with the salutation, your sincere friend. and this exchange, written in the first year of washington's presidency, each expressed and each expressed, and i'm quoting here, undying respect and affection for the other with franklin adding -- and washington topping him with veneration. franklin and washington were the most admired individuals in the united states which is why franklin college in georgia.

it was called franklin college. and the most famous americans in the world. the final letters for each other represented a fitting end to a 3 decade partnership that more than any other pairing would forge the american nation. their relationship began during the french and indian war when franklin supplied the wagons for general edward braddock's the ill-fated assault on fort mccain, washington buried the general's body under the dirt road, against the frontier, to become 2 pieces. which they were.

rekindled in 1775, this friendship went through the revolution, the constitutional convention and establishment of the federal government. perhaps because of differences in the background, the age, the manner, the public image, their relationship was not widely commented on and remains little discussed today. it helped to shape the course of american history. both were hailed by biographers, quoting the titles of the book, the first americans but they were also friends and unlike adams and jefferson, and they knew who they were, confident people.

their relationship gain historical significance during the american revolution when franklin led america's to the medication to europe and washington commanded the continental army. victory required both of these efforts to succeed in their success required coordination. this historic collaboration when coupled with the role as the two most prominent delegates to the constitutional convention helped to found a nation and global experiment in liberty and republican rule. i was interested in that in these times to think about leadership that works. and how do they work together so seamlessly to create the united states? it is a different partnership. usually when historians write about partnership they talk about hierarchical partnership,

washington and hamilton, jefferson and madison where you can follow them neatly because when is easily supporting the work of the other. we talk about a partnership of equals, a partnership of two men and by the time of the revolution large and the like heroes already. they went to the second continental congress already the most famous americans but there are those sorts of partnerships of equals. to give a few examples think of world war ii. roosevelt and churchill. both were necessary to defeat germany. they were equal in -- they had a huge history, both were larger than life and worked together for a common goal.

and they think of lyndon baines johnson, both were necessary to pass the civil rights act, each were important. if you think of one over another all the way, tries to do the other way, it doesn't tell the whole story. it was a partnership of people of equals who work together. that created a writing challenge which was part of the fun of the book. how to tell this joint story when they - a separate story of their own. what i ended up doing was having to trace or sketch both stories to show who they were and when they came together periodically like in the french and indian war or the constitutional convention, then dig deeply how these two great

and good men work to gather. i will tell a few other stories, the french and indian war, what first brought them to gather, franklin by this time by didn't of hard work and shared brilliance and reason in philadelphia from being an immigrant from boston, indentured servant with nothing to being one of the richest men in the world with the chain of print shops running up and down the east coast and integrated backward into paper mills, leading american humorists, also being an adventurer with a world-famous scientist because of electricity and when the french and indian war came, it

was fought over the ohio country, the area around pittsburgh into eastern ohio, western pennsylvania, new jersey and because of a fluke, errors in the original colonial land-grant pennsylvania had a plane going directly west including ohio country and virginia had a claim going straight line at the bottom but potomac up and that meant both were projecting -- both were investing back there and in the 1850s, the french moved and inveighed. they had canada and decided to take the ohio river valley to connect the two more conveniently. they sent an army and raised up

the native americans to attack the pennsylvania and virginia senators. franklin was named commander in chief and creator of the pennsylvania militia. by happenstance, the leader of the virginia militia washington became at a young age, washington in his 20s became commander in chief of the virginia militia. they had to fight to gather against the french and this is when they first got together. many meetings, many coordinations. franklin turns out to be a brilliant strategist who knew just where to put before to protect the pennsylvanians. washington goes in there and they work together in various occasions ultimately leading to

a joint army freeing fort duquesne in the ports of the ohio. what laughs is what they learn, the same lesson. the respective colony during the french and indian war, they learn similar lessons, they learn the british had different objective from their american colonies, the british wanted to keep the colonies divided and in development and would readily tax them without representation. they are unwilling to secure the frontier accept as it served their larger geopolitical interests, they took it back with proclamation

of 1763. franklin and washington learned american columnists would remain subordinate to the british counterparts. he pleaded for a royal commission as his brother had without receiving one and was compelled as the currently in the virginia militia to submit to the lowest of british officers, for franklin when pennsylvania's proprietors who ran that within broad parameters, heard of his appointment after the war as the assembly's agent in london, they dismissed his influence in london. franklin's popularity is nothing here. he will be looked on very coldly. third, the american colonies concluded would benefit from

greater unity as reflected in franklin's albany plan which he proposed during this period tying the colonies together and the call for joint inter-colonial military action to beat the french. after all it was a force to close to truth, from five colonies not from england, the finally drove the french from fort duquesne. this experience made washington as much is franklin a believer in unions. these three lessons might just to benefit from american independence but were insufficient to support it as a realistic option. a final shared lesson carried more weight. despite the war's ultimate outcome of the british were beatable in the world combat, they both concluded. as franklin wrote about the

battle that destroyed the british army and killed general braddock, the whole transition gave us americans the first sense that are exalted idea of the promise of the british regulars was not well-founded. washington had been there to see it and reported at least in frontier fighting virginia soldiers outperformed british regulars. if put to the test they might do so again. coupled with the disastrous effect british colonial policy following the french and indian war, these four shared lessons help to nurture the revolutionary theory that brought franklin and washington back together again a quarter century later to forge new american unions, franklin had gone to london, as representative of the pennsylvania colony,

pennsylvania assembly but seeing how successful he was five other states including georgia asked him to be there representative too in london. washington due to his brother lawrence's death inherited mount vernon and used this time to turn what was a failing tobacco plantation into a very successful collection of five wheat farmers. the grain mills, the largest whiskey distillery, it was really in entrepreneurship on his part but they came back together in 1775. this is a story we know. if you place it out, and the next phase, three separate

stages. first in philadelphia, the second continental congress. it was selected by pennsylvania, they were the two superstars from the very beginning, heroes of the french and indian war. the two of them were appointed to virtually every committee. every committee involving war and diplomacy. at franklin's urging. and and and 16,000 men trapped 5000 british regulars, can find in boston.

it franklin's support, and then franklin is left in charge of most of the war committee. it goes to cambridge to meet with the siege of boston and to new jersey to meet them during when the war moves down to new york and washington sent troops to conquer canada, franklin goes with them and tries to persuade the canadian people to view this invading army as an army of liberation. the guy was 70 years old at the battlefront and people live as long then. i could go into various details

of their meetings together but let me bring two things forward from this period. franklin's prior experience during the french and indian war let him proceed sooner than most other delegates, the need for undertaking fundamental reforms. he consistently spoke and thought in terms of america rather than the colonies believing that the british could only be defeated and liberty only secured through a united effort. the first editorial cartoon ever drawn in america by franklin. having pushed the albany plan of union franklin introduced a similar but stronger draft constitution in 1775. they go with the articles of

confederation. with each colony retaining control over matters - franklin draft held concept he later pushed at the constitutional convention with representation in congress, and interstate commerce and colonial commerce and foreign affairs, western lands, a believer in the need for the frontier and such domestic matters as, quote, necessary for the general welfare. these become the same issues that by the end of the war washington also embraced when he wrote his final great document as a general before stepping down. the circular letter to the state where he said with articles of confederation isn't working, we have chaos and the same issues franklin raised, he

raised in a circular letter which would eventually lead into the constitutional convention. second, while many patriots blinded by faith in their cars believed citizen soldiers vanquished a hireling army franklin sobered by experience dealing with obstinate british leaders saw a long war. summer soldiers and part-time militias could not win such a war, only a unified discipline court. not only did washington face a daunting task of transforming volunteer militia men from various colonies to do a single continental army, knowing most of the men they inherit in boston signed only the end of 1775 confronted with an army of

professional soldiers, franklin and washington new the army must be reconstituted on a more permanent basis with men serving for the duration. as congress came around to this view once the militia commission began -- -- embedded in boston, assigned franklin to multiple committees charged with reforming the army working with washington to do this and this brought him back in contact with washington with various meetings during the war. of course franklin gets sent to europe to be the chief diplomat after the declaration of independence and their work becomes even more important because washington knows he can only win with the french. at times during the revolutionary war, most of our soldiers did not even have shoes. many didn't have shirts. franklin had to negotiate shoes and shirts and guns and cannons

and ships from the french and money to pay the soldiers, the last three years of the war soldiers didn't get paid and he arranged the french army to come over in the navy to come over in the final victory at yorktown was a coordinated effort with more french troops surrounding yorktown then american troops in the french navy outside, all of which franklin and washington coordinated. they had to work closely together. franklin served as a vetting agent for washington to see what foreign soldiers would help and so polanski or lafayette all said at first with franklin and franklin wrote the note to washington saying it is up to you whether you want them but this man will help.

this man will be a good man. you can add some others, they all came via franklin to washington. let me jump ahead. i can tell plenty more about the revolution but let me jump ahead to the constitutional convention where before it even began, washington joined with franklin and the other delegates from virginia and pennsylvania who were first to get to philadelphia, to draft what became known as the virginia plan because was introduced by edmund randolph to introduce the articles of confederation with a centralized constitution with power over just the things franklin and washington had been asking for, centralized power over warranty, interstate and international commerce, the power to tax and spend for the general welfare, power over the frontier, power over the military.

these were what they had been arguing for and appear in the virginia plan and will work their way into the constitution. there too the two leading delegates because of their stature for washington and franklin and when washington arrives in philadelphia as soon as he drops his bag franklin is now 80 years old. after he drops his bag at robert morrison's house he goes immediately to meet with franklin and goes to franklin's house and they meet regularly during the constitutional convention because they know they are together but this is the key to the success. they have been pushed for having a constitutional convention, the first two states to call for a constitutional convention were west virginia and franklin's pennsylvania.

in addition to countless lesser additions and alterations, turning the virginia plan which was developed at of time into a framed constitution required three major compromises or innovation engaging the talents of franklin and washington and shows how they worked together and had their differences. foremost among these was the so-called great compromise, restructuring congress to have a proportionally representative popularly represented house of representatives and the senate with equal representation for each state. also franklin favored a popular elected unicameral legislature and washington favored a popular elected lower house, proportional to the state's calculation and choosing a more elite senate. in both cases proportional

representation based on population, franklin was one of the first to realize that wasn't going to fly. they would not get the small states to go along. he resolved the final compromise earlier than anyone else and helps to broker it. indeed, while led by washington's virginia and franklin's pennsylvania a majority of delegations supported proportional presentation in both houses of, determine minorities from small states demanded equal representation and threatened to scuttle any deal without it. this was a fight over principle with practical implications. the content for representation was not finally resolved for two months, taking the measure of both sides in a folksy pragmatic way that tended to bring people together, franklin shown here in a picture in the

us capital how he worked together, franklin's garden where he brings delegates together including washington to try to work out these deals and washington was a key compromiser as well, they worked closely together. franklin said at the convention of proportional representation takes place, small states contend their liberty will be endangered. if equal votes are in place the large states say their money will be in danger. we are meant to do something, franklin urged the convention to act like a carpenter who when framing a table from two planks of uneven parts takes a little from both and makes a joint. the result was the senate and house resulted and after finally working the deal with washington when it was all dead stop and nobody -- we got to point this to a committee and

the committee he picked included franklin and moderates who could work out something and come back with that compromise and then washington got behind it and the compromise past. otherwise there wouldn't have been a constitution. as the delegates pushed on the debate over the presidency, the second big issue, more time at the convention than any other topic and was not resolved to the end. here these people were living in the shadow of a dictatorial british monarch. they had no experience creating an elected leader. having agreed to begin working through the virginia plan the delegate reached its resolution on the executive on june 1st. these called for a national executive chosen by congress, like a parliamentary democracy and besides the general authority over executing national law, the officer out

to enjoy all the executive rights invested in congress by the confederation. those extensive executive right included all the ones held by the british monarch later vested in congress. the provision gave the power to the president which meant one thing when the president was chosen by congress but quite another when they later innovated electoral college, separate election of the president. they held direct authority over war and peace, military, foreign affairs, pointing officers and judges, since the articles of confederation set these powers in congress they might go to the executive under the virginia plan, and was frustratingly vague, withdrawing at the convention, what he looks like at the convention perhaps the presumed first president was sitting among them and the delegates

reached the resolution, they all felt that way. after brief comment by two supporters of a strong executive a considerable pause when the chair asked of delegates were ready to pass the provision. coming from washington's delegation, no one is crossing the great washington. washington's equal, this is a picture franklin, never one to see for, franklin broke the silence emphasizing the structure of the executive is of great importance. delegates deliver their sentiment on it before the question was put, quote, these -- this comment burst the dam and the debate flooded the room. for four days, the discussion raging, franklin said his fellow delegates with reference to washington and the presidency the first man at the helm will be a good one. nobody knows what will come "after words". the executive will always be increasing here as elsewhere until it ends in despotism.

favoring a week executive at one point or another during the debate franklin advocated circumcising the presidency with term limits and an advisory council by limiting the veto power and adding provisions for impeachment and removal from office. as franklin put it at the convention it would be best to provide in the constitution for regular punishment of the executive where this conduct should deserve it and honorable acquittal they should be unjustly accused. washington for his part consistently supported a strong executive and carried most of the state with him. the third congress compromise you all know about, famously involved slavery. that is one that splits franklin in washington. let me get to the end of the constitutional convention. surveying the final product involved in the virginia plan, edmund randolph and

washington's neighbor george mason warned delegates, such a constitution with vaguely defined presidency and fundamentally reconstructed senate would, using randolph's words, either end monarchy or tyrannical aristocracy and they both voted against it, there were similar concerns throughout the proceedings and they thought he was going to join them and by joining them scuttle the constitution but in part due to his trust in george washington as the first president and because he believed in a stronger federal union what is absolutely essential, the alternative is doing nothing, his lingering worries may account for his widely quoted answer to the game of pennsylvania high society, it created a republic or a monarchy.

he replied, a republic if you can keep it. riddled with compromise, washington's neighbor, an old friend he never spoke to again. masonry that with these compromises, this was washington's constitution. especially with respect to the president. he declared, washington declared it is the best constitution that could be obtained. and more than indispensable he necessary for good government. and never doubt abroad authority, even after lafayette, writing to him, singled out, quote, those defense of powers of the executive, one of only four points along with no bill of

rights, no guaranteed jury trial and now president of term limits questions by european philosophers who review the documents. his reply, washington, only a bill of rights and guaranteed jury trial by suggesting those in due course amendments could provide. they shared concerns on presidential power, and the democratic constitution that endures the final draft that is better than nothing. i agree to this constitution with all its faults he told fellow delegates in a major prepared speech delivered at the convention because i think the general government is necessary for it and there is no form of government but what may be a blessing to the people as well administered. and franklin understood the division stating the convention and support whatever compromise could produce a workable

federal government, if they met again, it would only be for the purpose of cutting one another. with a nod to washington, franklin expressed his faith that the constitution, i am quoting here, is likely to be well administered for a -- at that time predicted it would. not may but would end in despotism. as other forms had done before, when the people shall be so corrupted as to need despotic government. a few weeks later washington said virtually the same thing in a private letter to his nephew, washington who would later become a justice of the supreme court. when popular government works only so long as the people had

virtue. when franklin and washington embraced the constitution because it realized their long-held ambition for a fortified federal government with consolidated authority over commerce, defense, frontier, and taxation. washington secured a strong independent presidency that franklin thought was overly monarchical. coming from fundamentally nationally minded, neither washington nor franklin favored a senate with two members from each state but both accepted as a necessary compromise. 7 delegates including washington also scored critical safeguards for slavery the many northern delegates including franklin hoped would fail. it tells much about rational pragmatism and faith in republican virtue that despite compromises franklin and washington fully accepted the constitution and worked so hard to get it ratified with franklin working for washington

to be the first president. let me go back to the compromise over slavery i skipped over but i didn't skip over it in the book at the time and i bring it back up at the last closing encounter. slavery was the one manner that on bridge of the divided franklin and washington just as it became the subject that as we all know toward the states apart that they had worked so long to get together. coming from the south and knowing the issue's divisiveness, temple rising on slavery was nothing new for washington. it was just practice born into a slaveholding family, washington owned over 100 slaves and controlled nearly 200 more from his wife's dowry. during and after the revolution, critics of slavery from quaker abolitionists to his much loved military aid

lafayette and hamilton pleaded with washington to denounce the institution publicly or at least set an example by freeing his own slaves. he sometimes sympathized with those views in private, but he always -- the number of his own slaves increased. he never freed any of them during his lifetime and he pursued those that ran away. those in human bondage never saw washington as a liberator and many of them tried to escape whenever -- troops got near during the revolutionary war. not so franklin. since taking the reins of the pennsylvania abolition society in the spring of 1787 during the second term of governor of pennsylvania for three terms in that role between the war and the constitutional convention franklin assumed ever more prominent position criticizing the slave trade -- trade, he pleaded with influential slaveholders such as virginia governor edmund randolph,

washington's first attorney general to free their slaves and new hampshire governor john langdon, merchant shippers from participating in the slave trade. franklin hosted both men in his home during the convention and pressed them on the issue. his strategy on slavery which he clearly expressed was to bring the southern states into a fortified federal union under the constitution and then have the government work toward abolition. he didn't wait long. 's final assault on slavery took the form of a petition to congress in 1790 that he signed as president of the pennsylvania. in society declaring, quote, that equal liberty was originally apportioned and is still the birthright of all men. he called upon members of congress, quote, to step to the very urge of the powers vested in you, for trafficking in persons of our fellow men, paraphrasing the constitution

he wrote those powers included promoting the welfare and securing the blessings of liberty to the people of the united states. those blessings are administered without distinction of color to all distinctions, and he was an able writer, a flashing sapphire, slaveholders defense of the institution. on his newspaper background, a history of assuming fictional guises such as richard saunders. to make his point. under the pseudonym of an algerian divine that everyone knew was franklin. here he took on a georgian. georgia congressman james jackson who delivered a major speech in the two weeks with congress was debating franklin's petition.

in jackson's speech to congress against an anti-slave position franklin had mohammed ibrahim, white europeans, enslaved in great numbers in north africa. what is so pitiable in their present condition, is it made worse by falling into our hands? they are brought into a land where the son of islam shines in full splendor and they have the opportunity of making themselves equated with the true doctrine in saving their immortal souls. modern satire relies on cultural relevance. franklin displayed his modernity. serving us, we take care to provide them with everything, he said about arabs and european slaves, laborers in their own country, are closed.

this speech concluded by affirming the koran condemned slavery, franklin drew directly from the biblical verses in a decision 6-5 started by jackson in a speech to congress, slaves, serve your master with cheerfulness, no one could mistake franklin's meeting. franklin washington as he fumed announcing the intervention as as strong a word as washington used, unkind. washington absolutely decisive act against slavery came in freeing his own by his will. his intention of freeing his slaves and then postponing the release until his widow died, drained its political and social significance, trusted aides like lafayette or alexander hamilton from new york and prominent

abolitionists including robert pleasant had urged washington to act earlier ideally during the idealistic favor of the american revolution when it might have made a difference. once dead washington could neither explain his motive nor present his final act as a model for other slaveholders. his wife who own the slaves at mount vernon did not follow his lead and kept the mixed race children inspired by her father, have sister and her son or grandchildren and slaves. southern slaveholders easily dismissed washington's death that act of northern abolitionists struggled to give it meaning. no one can know what might have happened had the two icons of the revolution, franklin and washington, stood together against slavery. some of their contemporaries thought it could have made a difference. as it happens they split the

issue and with them the nation. washington and southern states retain their slaves, franklin in northern states rejected the institution. virginia abolitionist robert pleasant who i mentioned before closed his 1784 letter to washington with a warning notwithstanding, the attributes of praise from a grateful people, the time is coming when all actions will be weighed in on equal balance and undergo impartial examination. how inconsistent then would it appear to posterity should be recorded that the great general washington would keep a number of people in absolute slavery who are by nature entitled to freedom as much to freedom as himself. the same applies to all founders and i would contend that despite their flaws, franklin and washington held up better than most leaders of any age. there was a founding partnership that launched a nation. over the years the harshest

critics of franklin have focused on his promotion of falsifying middle-class virtues. no man was glorious who is not label areas he wrote in poor richard's almanac for 1734 and a year later the ever famous one early to bed early to rise, a man healthy and wise, generations of americans took franklin's maximum to heart and credited them as their way to wealth. just as surely generations of intellectuals from edgar allen poe to f scott fitzgerald marked franklin as a pedestrian profit of pragmatism yet franklin was a man of many faces who, as author, ranging from his first, to his last, the arab flavor, judging

franklin solely from his richard saunders guys fails to do him justice. washington is much the same. he did not wear multiple masks but so carefully cultivated the face of republican virtue that he once famously captioned gilbert stuart, the painting on your one dollar bill, quote, my countenance never yet betrayed my feelings. this aspect of washington's personality can make it difficult to see behind his plumage as it is to look beyond most guises, the pennsylvania printer and virginia planter appeared too dissimilar to maintain lasting friendship especially since the former posed as a man of the people in the latter one above them. yet focusing on their distinct public images obscured their fundamental similarities. hard-working and

entrepreneurial, franklin and washington have successful business careers outside government and never viewed themselves primarily as politicians. both prospered, supported will until realizing britain would never extend basic english rights to americans. jealous of their liberties they turned against the crown and never looked back. each nurture deep lifelong relationships with both men and women. natural leaders, people trusted them and they trusted others. both men listens more than they talked. compromised on means to secure ends, relied on others, give credit to others, sacrifice for the common good, and never waver on principles. franklin compulsively saw problems and tried to fix them.

franklin, went from mechanical to moral, lightning rods to constitutions and popular philosophy. washington's included constitutions of course but also agricultural reforms shaped by the enlightenment. franklin and washington shared a republican ideology at a progressive state that relied on human reasons and divine providence rather than traditional ways and established dogma. they saw truth and accepted facts. life could get better, they maintained, there is did. as the old order collapsed around them they crafted a better one to replace it. one that lasted two centuries. it wasn't perfect and never thought it would last forever,

if people allowed it, franklin born the constitution from its virtues would lead to tear any but the presidency serving as he called it the constitutional convention, the example of franklin and washington shows what individuals can do in times of action, fracture and failure to address problems and improve the state of affairs. we are not driven by fear, the legendary broadcast journalist edward r murrow would later say about americans if we dig deep in our history and our doctrine and we are not descended from fearful men. he surely had the likes of washington and franklin in mind so at the onset of world war ii, in his for freedom speech a resolute franklin delano roosevelt quoted franklin, those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve

neither liberty nor safety. franklin was more than a pennsylvania printer, washington more than a tight water planter. they were larger-than-life american originals whose partnership in revolutionary times laid the foundation to the world's first continental republic which lasted 250 years. each recognized the other's goodness and greatness and viewed one another as partners in the fight for liberty. others saw this too, franklin was elected to his state's highest office unanimously twice and washington elected to his nation's highest office unanimously twice. central to their republican conceptions of service both men willingly relinquished the station to return to the

private position that they both preferred private life and public power and yet they were and are the two indispensable americans, franklin and washington, the founding partnership, thank you. [applause] >> thank you very much. we have time for some questions. >> wait until i bring the microphone. >> i would be happy. i wrote a lot more than was in this talk. >> as a professional historian, do you remain in our the we had guys like this in the right place at the right time? >> i do but both of them. we have to listen to what they said. both of them honestly, we think of washington, when we think

about his religious views and washington, more conventional christian but both believed in divine providence, they both believed god or the divine separated, created america as something new under the sun and both were children of the enlightenment and governor morris or edmund randolph or john hancock, we keep naming these people who were central to this role, quite a laundry list, abraham baldwin in georgia so yes, it is impressive. people rise to the occasion, go to the crucible of the war and especially to the south, that was a real crucible and tempered by that they had a

vision for something special, and brought together tremendous insight, they weren't flawless, they recognized -- the senate and some of the structures they had problems with, some they did not support, franklin wanted the direct election of the president as did james wilson and governor morris from pennsylvania, alexander hamilton, they had their differences but realized something was necessary and they were committed to creating this country, did a pretty good job of it. >> thank you for being here. if ben franklin was younger washington might have included

him in his cabinet. >> of franklin had been younger washington and franklin would have picked the other for the president, they were larger-than-life. in georgia, the first thing we did was create the college, the first college created after the revolution and named it franklin college, it wasn't university of georgia, the whole thing was franklin college, tennessee was coming into the union applied for admission as the state of franklin. look around the country and they have franklin county, these people were larger than life original. if you look at i go it great length at this, if you look at the ratification debate in every state and every debate and every newspaper article the constant refrain of the federalist was franklin and

washington designed this, washington and franklin, how can it not work, these are two people we trust and so they had the stature. franklin at the time of the constitutional convention was 80 years old. he was in his third term, elected governor of pennsylvania served three terms. he makes joe biden look young. he remains sharp as a tack. or made mayor bloomberg look young but he was in no position to be president, he survives only one term, would have been teamwork. otherwise franklin was 100% as

much as you can be behind washington, he had doubts about the constitution but had faith in george washington so he pushed for ratification, pennsylvania becomes the first state to ratify, virginia the last, critical to success and through it all, pushing washington to be president. there was no doubt he had to be president. that was the situation but age was a factor. franklin was a generation older and this is back when people didn't live as long. thank you. >> true that we did not finish repaying our debt after the revolutionary war, if we ended up giving it back to the french were trading with the british, why would we do that? >> good question, i direct you

to a different one, dealing with that but washington and franklin both, if you read franklin's farewell address he warns about two things, warned against partisanship and warns against entangling alliances with foreign countries. franklin felt exactly the same way. franklin came back, the reason he was willing to serve as governor in his mid 70s, the state was being torn apart by two parties, he was the one person elected unanimously that both sides of stepped in and one of the two states that is successful during that period, pennsylvania thanks to frank and's leadership thought there should be a larger union, new york was the other successful state in georgia was very much

a failed state, two thirds of its territory was reconquered, and they were printing money like crazy and there was massive inflation. there were problems and a lot of states. this led to not replaying france totally and the revolution came in france and hamilton are you this is in the government we borrowed many from. this is a different government, a useful argument and he argued the same when it came to continuing to support france. this is in the government we have an alliance with and washington used his power under the constitution to abrogate the treaty. only congress can make a treaty, has to approve it but indigo treaty washington claims i can do all by myself and so he did. and he ended that treaty but

franklin too as a negotiator when he was working at the ambassador to france he was constantly paying the french and even the english, i will deal with them or the dutch or whatever, they -- to use the phrase, they consider the interests of their country first and they needed to cut a niche for america at a time we were a struggling little country off on the edge of the european world and france and england were the two superpowers so they were negotiating between those two and washington ended up doing those items you suggested that was the reason because that was in america's self-interest.

>> thank you for your scholarly depiction of how these two gentlemen cooperated. were conciliatory. today we need more of that. did you find any fundamental differences they were unable to reconcile in your scholarship? >> slavery was one area, they talk about ben franklin, talk about franklin was pushed at the constitutional convention, president of the abolitionist society, and never get the constitution to do that. he shoveled off his criticisms of slavery to governor morris to deliver that address and sat next to each other at the convention. instead biding his time, and

the power of the presidency. if you have a strongly like franklin it was very effective. washington looking at the chaos after the revolutionary war and europe, far we need a strong leader but they met together and saw franklin push for washington to be the first president despite issues they differed on but agreed on so much more than they differed, they believed in a unified government. they were both by nature compromised, never compromised on principle, they believed in liberty, property rights, american independence, they

believed in american destiny, they realize to get anything done in a government of the people which is how washington described it, government of the people, people don't have a monarch we can order around, we need to compromise and work together, in those end. they have this spirit and put counsel and both didn't crave credit, they both willingly, franklin almost compulsively tried to share credit with others but washington too. that was their nature so that allowed them -- there is another element too. franklin was a humorist, a story guy, a clever storyteller and stories and observations might be a little bit on the off-color side.

washington loved to joke. especially a little bit on off-color joke and franklin was a backslapping and can't imagine washington ever doing that. the pairing worked quite well. .. both loved books. they both had things in common. they both were very proud of their houses and like to show them off. they both were wonderful entertainers. franklin didn't used to drink but he learned to drink wine in france and came back as an expert at one. washington always loved wine and then you how to share that, share their and they knew how to share their commonality. they were the type of people who like other people and got along with other people and really had lasting friendships. and that is a wonderful trait, and a special trait they shared together. s that helped them to work together despite their differences.

>> i know that washington was a landyo speculator from a very young age. was franklin also a land speculator? and the fact that after the french and indian war, the british as part of p the peace agreement drew a line down the crest of the appellation mountainss and said -- appalacha mountains and said no more settlers could go west of that line. now, this seems to me it had to be a big motivator to the revolution, because these two men, and many others that were speculators, who wanted to sell their land that they had speculated in and wanted settlers to be able to go across

that line, and they were quite determined about it. >> i agree with you that the proclamationma of 1763 by the british contributed as much as anything, certainly the stamp act, the key act. they were all critical as well, but removing the frontier was critical. i wouldn't say it was just the land speculator. you can read the writings come the private writings of washington and the public writings of franklin. and both of them believed in the frontier. washington was much more speculative. he did not know he's going to inherit any land picky thought his land, basically believed in virginia, mount vernon, was going to go to his older brother because back then in virginia everything was passed down to the oldest son and it was just a fortuitous event that both his older brothers died that he ended up getting mount vernon and thereafter with mount vernon got martha washington brought even more money into the

project. but so we thought is going to have to make his weight on the frontier. franklin also had left boston where he was an adventured servant. went to the front you are the founding area of pennsylvania made his fortune on what was to him part of the frontier. and became fabulously wealthy as a printer there. he also invested some in frontierland, but the more important thing was they both conceived of the front you are as essential to what a native -- what made america different. you can see this in the writings, you can see this in the writings of the people at the time. they believe what made americans levers of liberty, what made them open to improvement is they could always go to the frontier and start over. they could invest there, as you say, but they could also move there themselves like a daniel

boone. and it was b at the option of te frontier keeping the openness of the west that made america different than europeans. jefferson would pick that up. the yeoman farmers on the front you with the american future. it was the source of liberty to these people. and they believe that taking away the frontier was just going to turn americans into a bunch of serfs. and so they both believed deeply that america needed the frontier. so not only didee that help lead to the revolution, the proclamation of 1763, even though virtually the entire war was fought on the coast. and america have nothing to win the frontier. when franklin negotiated the peace, he insisted on getting the frontier all the way to the mississippi. and it was -- he pushed for that and he said don't want to give that to france. he used all these arguments because to him, he would not

agree, he put down essentials. we will not agree to peace without, and it wasn't just the liberty of the 13 colonies on the coast but it was also the french are going all the way to the mississippi. answer washington and franklin both deeply believed in the frontier as fundamental to america. thank you. believed. >> as someone in the mid-20s, when you speak more to the formative years, the growth of these two pioneers, specifically growth of the mind, of habits? >> that's a wonderful question and i tried to cover that in fashion in the book because who they were in the 20s and in their late teens made them what they were later. franklin goes off, leaves boston, breaks his contract and start his own business.

worked or others. he learned a trait already as an indentured servant as a printer. first to go to new york, finds there's no need for printer there and then goes on to pennsylvania by he's always driven. he's a driven -- he starts -- need of them have a formal education. he forms clubs to help him how to learn. he learns foreign languages. he was a driven man of self-improvement. he used to have contests with people to learn foreign languages. he knew what it would make to make other people respect him. he would carry his own roles of paper himself down the street in philadelphia because he would see that all these quick emergence and bankers would see him working hard rather than

have somebody else -- he didn't need to carry it himself but he knew what he needed to make his way to wealth. he explained that and wrote about it. he built key friendships with important people. washington did exactly the same thing. he did know he's going to inherit wealth. he made friendships with the most important people around like the fairfax is picky became a surveyor for them because he realized he could make money, as you point out as a specular front tier, so we learned surveying and went out to the front too. he could have taken a job along the coast that was safer but no, he was camping out in the woods surveying land. because then he could do that under the import of the fairfax is glad he land-grant, largest land grant in virginia for the west you could also check out what was the best properties that he surveyed and acquired them himself. they were both driven entrepreneurial in nature. both -- were not going to do

this alone, were going to do this working with others, and so that's their way to wealth. franklin ends up writing it up in the book, the way to wealth, which he comes incredibly popular. some of the richest people in american history like carnegie and james harper and other credited that book as their own way to wealth. so yes, they were driven people who both wanted to do good. they believed in virtue. they believed in helping others. they both joint the masons and went up and became leader of the masons and the relative states because the masons offered in connection with others, but they both were extraordinarily hard to build their businesses. thank you. thank you for the questions. [applause] [applause] >> thank you all very much for coming tonight.

as the way to wealth as franklin said, knowledge is the best investment in knowledge pays the best interest. an alignment to that, tonight we have 25% discount on books. so the do good discount is in effect. come buy a book. good night. thank you very much for coming. [applause] >> good afternoon and welcome to the william g. mcgowan theater here at the national archives. i am david ferriero, the archivist of the united states and it's a pleasure to have you with us this afternoon, whether you're here in the theater with us for joining us through facebook or youtube channels and a special welcome to our c-span audience. before we hear from william hyland about george mason i'd like to tell you about two of the